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Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier

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1 Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:45 pm

So IOS and I got into an argument long time ago with Dolph and Katua, and so far it was settled with them both in Low Mid. I don't really agree with this.

Compare these two to many of the Lower Mid tier units. The best here is Paola, who is currently under Katua. But look at the differences at 20/1 (Pegasus Knight -> Sniper):

Paola - 37.2 HP | 16.6 Str | 1.0 Mag | 19.4 Skl | 18.0 Spd | 6.2 Luck | 13.0 Def | 4.2 Res

Katua - 38.2 HP | 16.6 Str | 1.0 Mag | 22.6 Skl | 22.0 Spd | 13.8 Luck | 14.2 Def | 3.9 Res

Easily a tier difference already. 22 Spd alone is doubling all Paladins and doubling the vast majority of C21's DracoKnights. With Katua's 70% Spd growth, expect her to double C22's DracoKnights and Pegasi as well. Easily a tier difference.

Of course I usually argue 10/1, though this is to give you an example. So the question is if Paola is that much better than Katua when they both arrive? Well...

10 Paola - 23.2 HP | 8.1 Str | 2.0 Mag | 9.4 Skl | 13.5 Spd | 5.2 Luck | 8.5 Def | 6.2 Res

7 Katua - 21.2 HP | 6.9 Str | 2 Mag | 8.6 Skl | 14.3 Spd | 7.8 Luck | 8.5 Def | 6.1 Res

So this is C15. At first, you'd say Paola would win. Yeah, you're right. But look at her Javelin Atk: 16. Lowest Mage durability is 24 HP | 3 Def. So Paola CAN ORKO these guys. Her only worries are the Mages with 25 HP | 4 Def or the Bishops. So I'd say Paola wins so far.

Go to C17. 10/1 for Katua, 13/1 for Paola.

Paola - 33.0 HP | 12.8 Str | 1.0 Mag | 14.5 Skl | 16.25 Spd | 5.5 Luck | 11.3 Def | 3.5 Res

Katua - 31.0 HP | 11.25 Str | 1.0 Mag | 14.0 Skl | 18.25 Spd | 9.0 Luck | 11.25 Def | 3.25 Res

Now Paola does win Str by 2, but Katua also wins AS by 2. Now for this chapter... it doesn't make much of a difference. So at this point it's a tie. So zoom to C18 where they get roughly 2 more levels.

Paola - 34.4 HP | 13.9 Str | 15.9 Skl | 16.85 Spd | 5.7 Luck | 11.8 Def | 3.5 Res

Katua - 32.4 HP | 12.15 Str | 15.6 Skl | 19.65 Spd | 9.8 Luck | 11.75 Def | 3.25 Res

Now does it matter? Well, Katua is likely to have 20 AS by this point and Paola with 17. Katua can actually double the Paladins who sit on 16 AS. In C19, assuming she solidified her 20 AS, she can double 2/3 Mercenaries, prevent being doubled by the 23 AS Theif, and the Hunters. Also BB: That Sniper doesn't have 28 AS lol. It should be painfully obvious what happens in C20: Katua easily doubles the Paladins while Paola... is struggling. Bad. C21, assuming she can get about 3 levels here she has the capability of being able to double the DracoKnights here. It's possible she could miss out on the C22 DracoKnights and Pegasi, but she still is beating her badly in C21.

So Paola gets a minor win between her starting chapter and 16, roughly tie by C17-17X, then suddenly C18 turns toward Katua's favor, almost to the point of having a tier difference IMO.

I don't think I really need to outline this with Dolph since it should be obvious here. IMO the capabilities of Katua doubling more enemies than Paola should solidfy Katua a tier above Paola.

Sorry if I don't make a lot of sense...

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2 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:52 pm

I would argue Paola dropping long before rising Dolph & Katua to Mid. Their starts are too crappy to immediately justify it without huge discussion.

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3 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:18 pm

FE3_Player wrote:I would argue Paola dropping long before rising Dolph & Katua to Mid. Their starts are too crappy to immediately justify it without huge discussion.
The question is if Vyland and Matthis's earlygames are any better than Katua and Dolph's, IMO. The latter duo can clean up very quickly while it takes some time to clean Vyland and Matthis up.

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4 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:55 am

All Matthis needs (I don't know a thing about Vyland) to "clean up" his earlygame is Cleric. Cleric -> Sniper makes him basically a Minerva with, like, 10 more HP.

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5 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:04 am

I see Matthis' Cleric leveling as more of a fail safe than something that's actually good. It's not bad, but it's nothing really special.

This makes Matthis sound Mid Tier, which is incidentally where he's at right now so there is no need to touch Matthis' position based on Katua/Dolph/Vyland.

Vyland is just a worse version of Navarre. There's already a tier gap between him and Navarre, and is fairly average overall, and can use the same trick Matthis uses.

This leaves just figuring out Dolph/Katua's positions, which I fully agree with IOS on them. He pulled out very convincing numbers that they can't do any real damage at all if they don't get babied. Comparisons to Paola isn't going to change this, if anything they have just become more comparable to Radd.

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6 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:06 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:All Matthis needs (I don't know a thing about Vyland) to "clean up" his earlygame is Cleric. Cleric -> Sniper makes him basically a Minerva with, like, 10 more HP.
It simply slows down his suck is all. Look at his 20/1 stats:

38.8 HP | 9.1 Str | 11.7 Skl | 14.3 Spd | 5.4 Luck | 8.2 Def | 8.9 Res

With a 40% Spd growth, not much is happening here. The cost of being something similair to Minerva was the Master Seal and 20 extra levels. That's not... good.
I see Matthis' Cleric leveling as more of a fail safe than something that's actually good. It's not bad, but it's nothing really special.

This makes Matthis sound Mid Tier, which is incidentally where he's at right now so there is no need to touch Matthis' position based on Katua/Dolph/Vyland.
Wait... how is it a fail safe, then suddenly considered something that shouldn't be touched on? Shouldn't we take a second look at the whole Cleric -> Sniper setup overall? If we're considering this as his failsafe, what exactly IS his best setup?
Vyland is just a worse version of Navarre. There's already a tier gap between him and Navarre, and is fairly average overall, and can use the same trick Matthis uses.
I dunno about comparing them. Navarre has the better earlygame while Vyland has the possibly better lategame. It depends moreso on when we consider to promote these guys... I need to look further onto this one.
This leaves just figuring out Dolph/Katua's positions, which I fully agree with IOS on them. He pulled out very convincing numbers that they can't do any real damage at all if they don't get babied. Comparisons to Paola isn't going to change this, if anything they have just become more comparable to Radd.
IOS wasn't trying to point these guys toward Radd though (maybe with Dolph, but if he was definitely digging toward Katua there). The differences between Radd and Dolph / Katua is that Radd can't take 5 levels and suddenly become on-par to good. To give you an idea, a 10/1 Radd (Myrmidion -> Sniper) has 12 AS, 12 Str which is okay... but when your class should normally excel with Spd, things become difficult to even see Radd as a good character. That's freaking underwhelming.

Though I guess I could see Katua and Dolph a little lower, perhaps under some of the utility characters. But Paola should definitely drop with them.

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7 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:47 pm

Wait... how is it a fail safe, then suddenly considered something that shouldn't be touched on? Shouldn't we take a second look at the whole Cleric -> Sniper setup overall? If we're considering this as his failsafe, what exactly IS his best setup?
The only reason it's a "fail safe" is because it's drawing from healing EXP instead of feeding him Combat EXP.

IOS wasn't trying to point these guys toward Radd though
It's a comparison I myself came up with to put things into perspective, not to claim they should drop to his level.

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8 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:29 am

FE3_Player wrote:
Wait... how is it a fail safe, then suddenly considered something that shouldn't be touched on? Shouldn't we take a second look at the whole Cleric -> Sniper setup overall? If we're considering this as his failsafe, what exactly IS his best setup?
The only reason it's a "fail safe" is because it's drawing from healing EXP instead of feeding him Combat EXP.
It could still be argued its stealing from a second pool of EXP. Wendell wants C Staves, Lena wants A so she can be something useful by the time Hammerne rolls around, Merric wants to promote ASAP, etc. Not to mention many of these Cleric -> Snipers literally suck even when they do promote.
IOS wasn't trying to point these guys toward Radd though
It's a comparison I myself came up with to put things into perspective, not to claim they should drop to his level.
I admit their early chip damage is shit, but feeding them a kill or two isn't going to hurt that much. Remember even if they simply dent a unit they're gettting a fair amount of CEXP since they're severely underleveled. Actually, I remember playing C12 and aside from the Thunderbolt and possibly the Pachyderm Ballisticians I don't remember being AK!Dolph being targeted (then again Shiida was dodgewhoring this map somehow). It's also for 5-6 levels, and the rewards with the promotion should at least outweigh some, if not most of the slight troubles to get there. I just don't feel that these guys should be Low Mid material when:

1) They clean up fast
2) Definitely not utility
3) Good stats at early levels to back it up

I dunno about dropping them either. Eh, maybe someone else will speak on the matter, though by the looks of it I doubt it.

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9 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:02 am

It could still be argued its stealing from a second pool of EXP. Wendell wants C Staves, Lena wants A so she can be something useful by the time Hammerne rolls around, Merric wants to promote ASAP, etc.
Healing doesn't really steal EXP from other healers unless only one unit is hurt that turn.

Not to mention many of these Cleric -> Snipers literally suck even when they do promote.
Cleric -> Sniper!Matthis is comparable to Minerva, who is considered not suck.

I just don't feel that these guys should be Low Mid material when:

1) They clean up fast
2) Definitely not utility
3) Good stats at early levels to back it up

I dunno about dropping them either. Eh, maybe someone else will speak on the matter, though by the looks of it I doubt it.
Then PM IOS and start pulling out numbers, because I won't change my mind until you prove IOS wrong.

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10 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:38 am

Here were the numbers that I posted earlier. Debate was Palla vs. Dolph. All you can really argue is Dolph's levels, although you might have a hard time arguing higher levels considering his terrible performance (and the fact that he's only getting about 11 exp for a hit in Chapter 12x)

12x. Fighter Dolph has 24 HP, 14 Atk, 12 AS, 5 Def

10RKOs or 19RKOs Armors. Gets 2RKO`d
4RKOs or 5RKOs Archers. Gets 2RKO`d
Can ORKO Level 3 Mages, but not Level 5 or 7s. Gets 2RKO`d
19ROs the Mamkute. ORKO`d in return
6RKOs the Sniper. Gets ORKO`d in return

Chapter 13!

6RKOs or 9RKOs Shooters. Gets 2RKO`d

Chapter 14:

Dolph 7/0: 27 HP, 15 Atk, 13 AS, 6 Def
Palla 8/0: 22 HP, 21 Atk, 13 AS, 8 Def

Archers: Dolph 4 or 5RKOs them. Palla 3RKOs them. Archers obviously ORKO Palla, but 2RKO Dolph
Cavs: Dolph 7 or 8RKOs the Cavs. Palla 3 or 4RKOs them. Both get 2RKO'd
Sniper: Dolph 6RKOs them. Palla 4RKOs them. Same durability situation with the archers
Armor 7: Dolph 7RKOs them and Palla just misses out on 2RKOing them. Both get 2RKO'd
Armor 11: Dolph 11RKOs them. Palla 3RKO's them (It takes Palla 8 less rounds Very Happy ). Both get 2RKO'd
Thieves: Dolph 3RKOs them. Palla 2RKOs them. They ORKO both (ouch)

15 is another blowout for Palla, thanks to actually being able to move.
Now, Chapter 16. We'll still be generous to Dolph, and give him a level a chapter. Actually, lets just make him Level 10. Palla can be level 10 too. D Rank for Dolph, A rank for Palla

Dolph 10/0: 29 HP, 20 Atk (Steel Axe), 14 AS, 6 Def
Palla 10/0: 23 HP, 23 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 9 Def

Note that Cavs now have at least 11 AS, so neither can double

Horsemen: Dolph 3RKOs. So does Palla. ORKO's Palla and 2RKOs Dolph
Wyvern: Dolph 5RKOs. Palla 4RKOs. 2RKOs both
Hero: Dolph 4RKOs. Palla gets WTA, so 3RKOs. 2RKOs both
Cav 6: Dolph 3RKOs. So does Palla. 2RKOs both
Cav 8: Dolph 4RKOs. Palla 3RKOs. 2RKOs both
Cav 10: Dolph 4RKOs. Palla 3RKOs. 2RKOs both
Paladin: Dolph 5RKOs. Palla 4RKOs. 2RKOS both
General: Dolph 5RKOs. Palla 3RKOS. 2RKOs both
Thief: Both 2RKO. ORKO's Dolph and 2RKOs Palla (thanks to WT bonus loss)

Another clear win for Palla. Oh wait, she can use the Horselayer, can't she? Lets see, thats 32 effective might. Meaning she 2RKOs the Horsemen, 2RKOs all the cavs, 2RKOs the Paladin.

I stopped around here, because by now Dolph has gone through chapters 12, 12x, 13, 14, 15 and 16 with one of the roughest starts possible, and I thought that my point was illustrated at that point.

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11 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:40 am

What about Katua? If the comparison never took her into account (only Dolph and Paola), shall I go ahead and bump Katua back to Mid?

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12 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:48 am

It was Hunter->General IOS, not Fighter. I threw out Fighter a while ago, heh. I also assumed early promotion for both (10/1, might as well).

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13 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:10 am

Catria is pretty similar to Palla at jointime, although she doesn't have access to B lances for Silver Lance use. However, when they do promote:

Dolph 10/1 Hunter-->General: 35 HP, 22 Atk (Killer Lance), 12 AS, 18 Def
Catria 10/1 Peg-->Sniper: 31 HP, 20 Atk (Killer Bow), 18 AS, 11 Def

Growths:
Dolph: 70 HP/30 Str/30 Spd/45 Def
Catria: 70 HP/45 Str/70 Spd/25 Def

Its a matter of offence vs. defence. Keep in mind though that Dolph isn't exactly excelling in defence (27 Atk/18 AS Silver Axe Hero in C17 says hi). They do seem pretty close though, although keep in mind that Katria has a nicer start (she doesn't 7-8RKO in Chapter 14 like Dolph does).

As for Hunter instead of Fighter, Dolph gets 1 strength in exchange for 1 AS. Unfortunately, Dolph loses 2 Atk from the Axe to Bow drop, and that 1 AS won't be made up for until about 6 levels later (.15 *6=.9). Everything else about him stays about the same, except that he at least has a way of avoiding damage with 2 range.

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14 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:12 am

Catria is pretty similar to Palla at jointime, although she doesn't have access to B lances for Silver Lance use.
She can still use Horse Slayer to one round Ch. 16 Social Knights, and can one round Mages (albiet taking a counter, but it's still EXP.)

Compared to Paola, this justifies a tier gap, IMO, so I'll do that. E in bows for Dolph? Not so much.

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15 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:24 am

FE3_Player wrote:
Catria is pretty similar to Palla at jointime, although she doesn't have access to B lances for Silver Lance use.
She can still use Horse Slayer to one round Ch. 16 Social Knights, and can one round Mages (albiet taking a counter, but it's still EXP.)

Compared to Paola, this justifies a tier gap, IMO, so I'll do that. E in bows for Dolph? Not so much.
No she cannot. Remember how I stated that she doesn't have the Str ratios to hold it, and the Spd wasn't high enough?

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16 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:33 am

Only needs three levels to double the 11 AS variations. Five for the 12 AS variations. Even if she does not double yet, she should be able to do more than half HP damage with the Horse Slayer to most enemies on this chapter anyway.

For mages, she should one round with a Steel Lance even at base level.

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17 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:36 am

You're also neglecting:

- C13 he can slide toward AK and shouldn't have a whole hell of a lot to worry about.
- C14 he has power on Pegasi anyway.
- C15 he should be ORKOing with Steel against the Mages.

He doesn't "have" to take a whole bunch of kills. Even hitting the enemy he gets something ridiculous like 20 CEXP. BBlade can at least speak for me with the CEXP gains.

Also IOS, that's one enemy out of the majority (the Hero).

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18 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:38 am

E in Bows is still fairly crappy for damage, even if it's a free 20 EXP.

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19 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:44 am

FE3_Player wrote:E in Bows is still fairly crappy for damage, even if it's a free 20 EXP.
It is fairly crappy damage, but the CEXP that he obtains from it makes it barely matter. He's not shoving his way to hog a mass amount of kills because of this, thus it could be seen as an advantage.

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20 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:47 am

Actually, Dolph doesn't get ridiculous CEXP for hitting. In Chapter 12x, enemies range from levels 3-7. Dolph starts at Level 4.

For level 3s, he's getting 10 exp [if Level difference = 0, -1 or -2]

For level 7s, he's getting (31 + 3) / 3 or 11 exp

Unless you go mad and decide to get yourself ORKO'd by the Sniper or Mamekute.

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21 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:52 am

Wait... shit, wrong game.

Alright, I will agree to Katua moving then. Though this is assuming we aren't corkscrewing Dolph lower.

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22 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:23 pm

Actually I do have one small objection: why the hell was Ridersbane ignored in that comparison with 10/1 Dolph?

(Also he would have the Steel Bow by C14 and C13 he isn't a Hunter for the last time).

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23 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:07 am

I think Catria is better as a Draco Knight anyways:

Catria: 27 HP, 22 Atk (Killer Lance), 16 AS, 14 Def

Not to mention she's probably at B lances by now for Silver. Anyways, its offence vs. defence for these two, and at least Catria's 16 AS can actually double some enemies (65% growth helps too). Catria's growths are also much better, and there's her far superior start to consider too.

And what class is he in C13? If its anything but Hunter then there's no way he could possibly get D Bows in that short amount of time.

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24 Re: Dolph and Katua (Catria) for Mid Tier on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:42 am

Armor Knight.

It takes 15 shots, he'd be Steel halfway into C14.

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