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Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart

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1 Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:21 pm

10 Dolph: 25 HP, 10 str, 14 AS, 6 def
10 Macellan: 23 HP, 11 str, 12 AS, 5 def

So far, they're still similar.

10/5 HuntGeneral Dolph: 38 HP, 14 str, 14 AS, 20 def
10/5 HuntGeneral Macellan: 35 HP, 15 str, 12 AS, 18 def

There is Dolph's better Lance Rank, but Mac is 8 attacks away from C Lances so I don't think it's a big deal. That being said, they're still stupidly similar.

10/10 Dolph: 42 HP, 15 str, 15 AS, 22 def
10/10 Macellan: 39 HP, 16 str, 13 AS, 19 def

Except for 1 def, nothing's changed.

I'm pretty convinced they need to be right next to each other unless Dolph's 2 AS win is the difference between Doubling or not. Considering their crummy AS in the General stage, I'm doubting it.

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Let's start with 20
3 General 1 lvl 2 2 lvl 4
4 Shooter 2 lvl 6 1 lvl 8 1 lvl 11 [lvl 6 Arrowspate/Hoistflamme, lvl 8 Arrowspate, lvl 11 Pacyderm]
7 Paladin 4 lvl 6 3 lvl 11 [lvl 11s have Brave Sword]
1 Thief lvl 13
2 Priest lvl 10 w/ Fortify

10/5 HuntGeneral Dolph: 38 HP, 14 str, 14 AS, 20 def
10/5 HuntGeneral Macellan: 35 HP, 15 str, 12 AS, 18 def
Code:
General 2 (Brave Lance): 50 HP, 25 (26) atk, 92 hit, 9 (10) AS, 15[ (16) def, 3 res, 6 crit

General 4 (Brave Lance): 51 (52) HP, 26 atk, 93 hit, 9 (10) AS, 15 (16) def, 3 res, 6 crit
Both get doubled. Mac takes 16 damage per round, Dolph takes 12 damage per round. 3RKO vs. 4RKO. Dolph also doubles. Wink
Code:
Paladin 6 (Brave Lance): 46 HP, 26 atk, 94 (95) hit, 16 AS, 10 (11) def, 7 res, 7 crit
Let's start with these guys. Mac gets quaded for 32! damage while Dolph gets doubled for 12. lol.
Code:
Paladin 11 (Brave Sword): 50 HP, 27 (28) atk, 96 hit, 17 AS, 12 def, 8 res, 8 crit
I'll be kind and assume A Lance for Mac. 6x4, or 24. Dolph takes lol 4x2, or 8 damage.
Code:
Thief 13 (Devil Sword): 35 HP, 28 atk, 113 hit, 23 AS, 5 def, 6 crit
8 damage for Dolph, 12 for Mac. Mac can actually suffer a 3RKO.
Code:
Shooter 6 (Arrowspate): 43 HP, 27 (28) atk, 93 (94) hit, 8 AS, 12 (13) def, 1 (2) crit
Hoistflamme: 43 HP, 27 (28) atk, 94 hit, 8 AS, 12 (13) def, 2 crit

Shooter 8 (Arrowspate): 44 HP, 28 (29) atk, 83 hit, 8 AS, 14 def, 1 crit

Shooter 11 (Pacyderm): 47 HP, 36 atk, 74 hit, 9 AS, 15 def, 2 crit
47 HP
36 atk
74 hit
9 AS
15 def
I won't bother much with this. But Pachyderm 3RKOes Dolph. Mac is 2RKOed.

22... I'm going to cut this short. Those that carry Braves have 20 Atk (Pegasi) or 22 Atk (Dracos). Both get quaded, but yeah... pretty simple to see Dolph has a major win on Pegasi and Dolph takes 8 damage tops from the Dracos while Mac is stuck with 16.

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Mekkah

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As I said on IRC, compare them with people inbetween them if you want to move them together.

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Colonel's comparison is assuming they're 10/5 by C20, which is something I have a pretty big problem with.

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If you're suggesting they are higher, then by all neans say so please.

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Mekkah wrote:As I said on IRC, compare them with people inbetween them if you want to move them together.

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There's only one problem with this: aside from maybe Jeorge, Ymir, and Bantu everyone else is supposedly a healbot. First, though, we have to actually SEE if this tier difference is possible, hence why I'm asking what levels BB is guesstimating.

This is going to suck, and it's not because it's Dolph going up or down.

EDIT: Guess we're going to drop it for now.

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Maybe glance at Mac later as an Armor Knight. Dolph seems okay at it, nothing spectacular, but kind of makes it. With these recent Warp-throughs, though, Dolph could probably drop. Palla and Katua might have to go with him, but Katua can probably stay over the pieces of shit like Matthis and co. Feel free to start flame wars with me.

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Colonel M wrote:the pieces of shit like Matthis and co

Your blind hatred is funny.

On-topic: Armor Knight Mac is ORKO'd by Cavs in 12x and he 4RKOs them in return with a Steel Lance/5RKOs with a Javelin.

Uh, yeah, I wouldn't even bother. AK doesn't look viable at all.

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Right.

Dolph & Paola in Low Tier.

Your blind hatred is funny.
He's right.

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What saves Catria from lowering as well?

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It's all riding on Colonel M. If he fails, I shall judge him harshly.

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Despite Dolph having a few more chapters of availability his bases really do suck as armor since he doesn't do that Hunter shit anymore [lol i is a tank and i get doubled all the time making me a shitty tank] so I don't think that really does anything for him pre-Catria. Catria's not a Barst or anything but she has a much better jointime environment. C Lances is enough for Ridersbane and due to not getting doubled she's got about the same durability as him except vs archers, but has like more than twice his mov due to flying. Then the Desert rolls along and Catria totally roflstomps Dolph here because she lols at the Desert Terrain whereas Dolph has to wade through it slooooowwwllly, and his class isn't helping things any.

So it's 16 now and Dolph would need to be liek lvl 11 to avoid getting doubled by 10 AS, which a lot of Paladins slash Cavs have. Considering he's stuck as lolarmor, that's not reasonable at all. Catria, though, only needs to be 7 to have 14 AS with Ridersbane [Pals are tanky enough where you arent OHKOing with forges]

In fact, does Dolph do anything BUT get doubled during his armor stage? Yeah, he can instaridersbane Blick, but Catria can do that two, except she can do it a billion times more efficiently since she's so much more mobile.

Anyway, Dolph should be totally shitstomping her on promotion, mirite?

12/1 Catria: 29 HP, 14 str, 19 AS, 15 def
12/1 Dolph: 38 HP, 12 str, 11 AS, 21 def

Not only is Dolph not winning defense enough to justify getting shitstomped in offense that badly, you can take a bit to train Catria's axe rank to D and that's shrinking Dolph's win further, plus Catria's still winning offense because her AS exists.

Plus, Dolph's durability lead isn't as solid as it looks. It doesn't say anything against Mages or Armorslayers, and forged armorslayers completely ruin Dolphs day. Sure, Catria has to watch out for archers, but with her massive mov/ridersbane for horsemen, they become less of an issue. Catria's mov allows her to stomp her problem areas with less effort, but you can't really say the same for Dolph, he's not OHKOing mages or anything.

As if all of this wasn't enough Dolph has no business being so close to Catria level wise because quite frankly it sucks ten times as hard trying to train him as it does Catria, due to Catria essentially being a Dolph that knows the meaning of the word "Speed", meaning she can double rather than being doubled, and is far more convenient to set up kills for considering her high mobility.

tl;dr, Catria is much easier to train than Dolph and comes out notably better.

Maybe she should drop, but there's enough to warrant a noteable gap between them.

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...Wait, people keep Dolph as an armor knight? I thought he went axer...

Wait, iron weapons that late, right. Stupid me.

Yeah, what sPortsman said.

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15 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:10 pm

Look, I shouldn't have to go over that Darros and co. are shitty tanks until after promotion, and look where they are. Fine, let's just nitpick at this:
Despite Dolph having a few more chapters of availability his bases really do suck as armor since he doesn't do that Hunter shit anymore [lol i is a tank and i get doubled all the time making me a shitty tank] so I don't think that really does anything for him pre-Catria.
I never said Dolph was a tank. Yeesh.

But look closesly what I've also posted: there's still two to three chapters that Katua lacks. Since promoting both of them is "okay, whatever" for them, the whole point of Katua being that much easier to train is merely moot. Dolph still has C12X, C13, and the vast majority of C14 to train. Catria has 15 to her advantage.
Catria's not a Barst or anything but she has a much better jointime environment.
What's Dolph supposed to be? Oswin? Dolph also has 12X to a slight advantage as his Atk ratio is better here than it was as a Hunter. Much better, may I add:

Armor Knight (Javelin) - 16 Atk
Steel Lance - 18 Atk
Hunter (Iron Bow) - 13 Atk

Yeah, much better minus the whole "-1 Mov".

In Chapter 13, IIRC he isn't Ballistae's "top priority" here. Though granted he doesn't double these things, if he isn't likely targeted it's not necessarily a bad thng. I know the Thunderbolt will take a free shot at him, but that's about the worst of it. Maybe Pachyderm.

As for CEXP gains, it should be about 40 CEXP per kill if Dolph kills a Level 5 Cav, for example.

And for C13, example:

23 HP | 14 Def btw.

Shooter 1 (Arrowspate): 33 (34) HP, 22 (23) atk, 82 (83) hit, 6 AS, 11 (12) def, 1 crit
Hoistflamme: 33 (34) HP, 22 (23) atk, 92 (93) hit, 6 AS, 11 (12) def, 1 crit
Shooter 3 (Hoistflamme): 35 (36) HP, 23 (24) atk, 93 hit, 6 AS, 12 def, 1 crit

3RKO.

Stonehoist: 33 (34) HP, 25 (26) atk, 52 (53) hit, 6 AS, 11 (12) def, 1 crit
Stonehoist: 35 (36) HP, 26 (27) atk, 53 hit, 6 AS, 12 def, 1 crit

The 26 Atk will 2HKO him. But, to be fair: Stonehoist + Hoistflamme can't KO him. I don't have to stress that he isn't doing so hot offensively, but at least he can approach near one and kill it.

There's also two Thieves that do 6 damage per round.

The only thing Dolph is asking for in 12X is maybe to save a use or two of the forged Ridersbane. The reason being that it makes the Cavaliers easier to kill.

So the main point is Dolph's extra three chapters give him an advantage to get out of a rut faster with the Master Seal on top of it. By the way, though C15 he isn't "astonishing", he can reclass to Warrior and toss a Hand Axe or start whipping his Bow rank up.

So it's a question of how fast can Catria catch up. If it's the American / Europe? version, she stands an okay chance (5). The Japanese version has her at Level 3 (I dunno why) so you'd have to argue...a massive amount of levels in one chapter in order to get Catria to match Dolph's level. She's 2RKOed and 2RKOes back. Yeah, her offense looks a bit on the bright side, but saying that she's getting 5 levels within one chapter? Not really buying it. Assuming that IOS's calculations were correct, she'd need to kill ~10 Mages in that chapter alone. Not including reinforcements, there is a grand total of 8 Mages. So... she's killing all of them? Help?

So let's just say, out of the kindness of my heart, she gets... 3 levels. Seems fair since by the point that she joins the map is nearly over (unless we're staying for reinforcemnts) and her Movement advantage on the desert.

10/1 Dolph (General) - 36.2 HP | 11.8 Str | 9.4 Skl | 10.8 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 19.7 Def | 3 Res
8 Katua - 21.8 HP | 7.35 Str | 9.4 Skl | 14.95 Spd | 8.2 Luck | 8.75 Def | 6.15 Res

This is assuming NA version Katua, btw.

Uh, let's review that Ridersbane has 10 Wt to begin with and Cavaliers are approaching 10-11 AS. Come on man, thisis almost a joke of a comparison.

10/3 Dolph - 37.6 HP | 12.4 Str | 10.2 Skl | 11.4 Spd | 3.8 Luck | 20.6 Def | 3 Res
10/1 Katua (Draco) - 27 HP | 12.25 Str | 11 Skl | 16.25 Spd | 9 Luck | 14.25 Def | 3.25 Res

C17... lesse...
Code:
Chapter 17:

3 Bishop Lvl 4
2 Sniper Lvl 4
2 Mamkute Lvl 12
1 Hero lvl 4
4 Armor 1 lvl 10 3 lvl 8
2 Thief 1 lvl 12 1 lvl 10
4 Mage 1 lvl 10 3 lvl 8
Going down unit-by-unit
Code:
Bishop 4 (Bolganone): 33 (34) HP, 24 (25) atk, 85 (86) hit, 7 (8) AS, 3 (4) def, 9 (10) res, 5 crit
With Pure Waters in play, which is +7 Res, Dolph is 3RKOed at worst while Katua is 2RKOed
Code:
Worm: 33 (34) HP, 18 (19) atk, 85 (86) hit, 7 (8) AS, 3 (4) def, 9 (10) res, 5 crit
9 Damage for each of them. 5RKO for Dolph, 3RKO for Katua.
Code:
Armor 8 (Forged Javelin): 37 (38) HP, 25 (26) atk, 103 (104) hit, 4 AS, 12 (13) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
Dolph is 7-8RKOed at worst while Katua is 3RKOed, 4RKOed sometimes with WTA intact. Both are about the same offensively.
Code:
Armor 10 (Forged Javelin):39 (40) HP, 26 atk, 104 (105) hit, 4 (5) AS, 13 def, 1 res, 4 (5) crit
Nothing different with this dude really.
Code:
Mage 8 (Bolganone): 24 (25) HP, 25 (26) atk, 82 (83) hit, 5 (6) AS, 3 (4) def, 4 (5) res, 3 (4) crit
Dolph is 3RKOed by the 25 Atk ones. Both double for ORKO.
Code:
Mage 10 (Bolganone): 25 HP, 26 atk, 83 hit, 6 AS, 4 def, 4 res, 4 crit
Only difference here is Dolph can't be 3RKOed.
Code:
Thief 10 (Silver Sword): 30 HP, 22 atk, 110 (111) hit, 19 AS, 3 (4) def, 5 crit
Thief 12 (Silver Sword): 32 HP, 22 atk, 111 (112) hit, 20 AS, 4 def, 5 (6) crit
No damage guaranteed for Dolph. As for Katua she is 4RKOed w/WTA and A rank assumed.
Code:
Sniper 4 (Killer Bow): 42 (43) HP, 26 (27) atk, 125 (126) hit, 16 (17) AS, 8 (9) def, 3 (4) res, 32 (33) crit
Silver Bow: 42 (43) HP, 26 (27) atk, 115 (116) hit, 16 (17) AS, 8 (9) def, 3 (4) res, 12 (13) crit
Okay, I don't really have to review Katua here. So what about Dolph? 3RKO at worst.
Code:
Hero 4 (Silver Axe): 40 (41) HP, 27 AS, 110 (111) hit, 17 (18) AS, 10 def, 3 (4) res, 7 (8) crit
27 Atk, not 27 AS. Anyway, 3RKO for Dolph, and Katua just barely pulls a 3RKO equipping an Axe.
Code:
Mamkute 12 (Fire Stone): 44 HP, 36 atk, 109 hit, 26 AS, 15 (16) def, 7 res, 12 crit
Get this fools: Dolph isn't ORKOed.
Code:
Boss: Moses (Magic Stone): 44 HP, 23 (24) atk, 103 hit, 17 AS, 17 def, oo res, 9 crit
Eh... probably the win goes to Katua here defensively.

So far Dolph is beating Katua by at least #RKOes pretty fast here.

C20... let's say 10/8 for Dolph and Katua -

Dolph - 41.1 HP | 13.9 Str | 12.2 Skl | 14.9 Spd | 22.85 Def | 3 Res
Katua- 31.9 HP | 15.4 Str | 16.6 Skl | 20.8 Spd | 16 Def | 3.6 Res

To sum it up: Dolph takes about 6 damage per round while Katua takes 16 per round, assuming WTA too. This is assuming the Brave Lance buffoons. And even then Camus's map has all the en-mass Ballistae. I don't really want to make it easier to sum up, but I'm thinking Katua's only "real win" after this is offense or C23 where she can become a Paladin and Res-tank. In C24 Dolph has the advantage vs. Mamkutes.

So it's a matter of determining when Dolph is hitting Level 10 and Katua hitting Level 10, then it draws to offense vs. defense and Mov.
Catria, though, only needs to be 7 to have 14 AS with Ridersbane [Pals are tanky enough where you arent OHKOing with forges]
JAP or NA Katua? NA fails miserably at this. The Jap is the same as... Level 10. Yeah, she has 14 AS... but these Cavs can have 11 AS too. In fact, they have 11-12 AS. Oops, sorry Katua.
In fact, does Dolph do anything BUT get doubled during his armor stage? Yeah, he can instaridersbane Blick, but Catria can do that two, except she can do it a billion times more efficiently since she's so much more mobile.
This is like asking if Catria's Mov is her only advantage.
Plus, Dolph's durability lead isn't as solid as it looks. It doesn't say anything against Mages or Armorslayers, and forged armorslayers completely ruin Dolphs day
Like I told you on IRC, there's a grand total of 2 Armorslayers. One in 16, and one in 18. Cry me a river man. As for Mages, if anything Dolph's HP advantage helps him out if he swallows a Pure Water. Katua has to be a Paladin to approach that.
Sure, Catria has to watch out for archers, but with her massive mov/ridersbane for horsemen, they become less of an issue.
So what about Snipers? These dudes exist in C17, C17X, and C19. Not to mention there is Ballistae in C20. C21 has Snipers, C24 does too. Horseman could also show up on the Enemy Phase, which can still limit her opportunities to move around the place. The fact that there's like... x6 more Bow users in comparison to Armorslayers is still within her way.
but you can't really say the same for Dolph, he's not OHKOing mages or anything.
C17 Mages: 6 AS

I'm pretty sure he can ORKO. As for OHKO? Nah, it's impossible unless he hits them up close.

Not going to bother with the last paragraphs since they're sort of covered with my above mentions up util here:
Maybe she should drop, but there's enough to warrant a noteable gap between them.
You blew things way out of proportion. Allow me to sum up what I wanted:
Maybe glance at Mac later as an Armor Knight. Dolph seems okay at it, nothing spectacular, but kind of makes it. With these recent Warp-throughs, though, Dolph could probably drop. Palla and Katua might have to go with him, but Katua can probably stay over the pieces of shit like Matthis and co.
Hence there'd still be a tier difference.

As for Mac... well, maybe I should've taken a second glance at this:

20 HP | 12 Def

I think the only units that can't ORKO him are... Mages if he has Pure Water and the Archers.

Maybe a gap can still be made on Mac and Dolph, but for now I'm willing to concede the drop.

---

Anyway, the main point is that the reason Katua should drop alongside with Dolph (but not Dolph > Katua or w/e unless this recent comparison meant something, though I doubt it) with still a tier difference. The reason being that a lot of these playthroughs are warping through lategame chapters. Basically: after 17X it's game over in some people's cases, which means lategame weight does not have a major impact as it once did. Which means that Katua's only advantage is... recovering from her terribadness faster... maybe.
It's all riding on Colonel M. If he fails, I shall judge him harshly.
Why me? >_>

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16 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:03 am

Look, I shouldn't have to go over that Darros and co. are shitty tanks until after promotion, and look where they are. Fine, let's just nitpick at this:

Except they're not.

For one thing, Darros joins when his suck is much more tolerable and he doesn't need to promote to fix it, just get him at a high enough level where he caps def or close to it, he's good to go. Dolph sucks for pretty much the whole time he's an armor.

I never said Dolph was a tank. Yeesh.

I never said you did.

Dolph's kind of an armor, he should be better at defense than this, you know?

The game fancies him as a tank, but well...he just isn't.

But look closesly what I've also posted: there's still two to three chapters that Katua lacks. Since promoting both of them is "okay, whatever" for them, the whole point of Katua being that much easier to train is merely moot. Dolph still has C12X, C13, and the vast majority of C14 to train. Catria has 15 to her advantage.

Can't train if you can't get kills.

Dolph has really awful stats initially, do you really see him gaining many levels?



What's Dolph supposed to be? Oswin?

What difference does it make who Dolph is supposed to be? His statistics are awful atm, he is awful atm.

So the main point is Dolph's extra three chapters give him an advantage to get out of a rut faster with the Master Seal on top of it. By the way, though C15 he isn't "astonishing", he can reclass to Warrior and toss a Hand Axe or start whipping his Bow rank up.

Warrior? You mean Fighter. D Axes didn't come out of nowhere, btw.

Or are you seriously suggesting Dolph is promoting already?



So it's a question of how fast can Catria catch up. If it's the American / Europe? version, she stands an okay chance (5). The Japanese version has her at Level 3 (I dunno why) so you'd have to argue...a massive amount of levels in one chapter in order to get Catria to match Dolph's level.

Who cares about her level? Stats matter, not level, and JP Catria levels faster and has more levels to grow than EN Catria. Who on earth cares that they aren't at equal levels? Catria totally pwnfaces him in stats in either version, that's what matters.

On the subject, don't just toss Dolph four levels in two chapters and call it fair game. His awful performance needs to be accounted for.


So let's just say, out of the kindness of my heart, she gets... 3 levels. Seems fair since by the point that she joins the map is nearly over (unless we're staying for reinforcemnts) and her Movement advantage on the desert.

10/1 Dolph (General) - 36.2 HP | 11.8 Str | 9.4 Skl | 10.8 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 19.7 Def | 3 Res
8 Katua - 21.8 HP | 7.35 Str | 9.4 Skl | 14.95 Spd | 8.2 Luck | 8.75 Def | 6.15 Res

Well, that answers my earlier question..but hold it. For the exact same reason Gordin doesn't get the C10 seal, I don't see why the hell we should be giving Dolph one of the C12 or whatever seals since they're starting to become heavily competed for now.

Second, how the hell did he get six levels so fast? With his terrible performance?

Uh, let's review that Ridersbane has 10 Wt to begin with and Cavaliers are approaching 10-11 AS. Come on man, thisis almost a joke of a comparison.

Let's also review that forged Ridersbanes OHKO. Catria not doubling is not a problem unless it's a Paladin which she actually needs two hits for.

And let's also review that Dolph isn't doubling, at all.

With Pure Waters in play, which is +7 Res, Dolph is 3RKOed at worst while Katua is 2RKOed

And Catria ORKOs always whereas Dolph is screwed if they proc spd.

No damage guaranteed for Dolph. As for Katua she is 4RKOed w/WTA and A rank assumed.

oh noes a thief scratches her

This wasn't really worth pointing out, was it?

Okay, I don't really have to review Katua here. So what about Dolph? 3RKO at worst.

Look at his weapon again, sparky.

[quote]Sniper 4 (Killer Bow): 42 (43) HP, 26 (27) atk, 125 (126) hit, 16 (17) AS, 8 (9) def, 3 (4) res, 32 (33) crit

wtf are you doing having Dolph anywhere near something that will damn near kill him with a crit when Dolph is facing such high crit rates? [30-ish and on top of that being doubled] Catria doesn't do much better here no, but Dolph is facing very bad risks of dying via a double crit if he goes anywhere near that guy.



JAP or NA Katua? NA fails miserably at this. The Jap is the same as... Level 10. Yeah, she has 14 AS... but these Cavs can have 11 AS too. In fact, they have 11-12 AS. Oops, sorry Katua.

Okay I goofed on the averages [her lvl only needs to be 9 tho]

Second, didn't I just tell you doubling cavs you OHKO doesn't matter? The advantage is still in Catria's favor, she can instablick just like Dolph can, difference is she can do it much, much, much easier due to her mobility.

Even with the Paladins Catria still has a win because it's easier to have her swoop in for the kill after some schmuck chips him.

This is like asking if Catria's Mov is her only advantage.

It's not?

I wasn't aware we stopped counting spd as a notable advantage.

So what about Snipers? These dudes exist in C17, C17X, and C19. Not to mention there is Ballistae in C20. C21 has Snipers, C24 does too. Horseman could also show up on the Enemy Phase, which can still limit her opportunities to move around the place. The fact that there's like... x6 more Bow users in comparison to Armorslayers is still within her way.

Look at the Killer Bow again to see why Dolph has a problem with Snipers too.

Second, as I told YOU on IRC, Catria can deal with her nemesis a lot easier than Dolph can.

I'm pretty sure he can ORKO.

What are you, Captain Strawman? That isn't at all relevant to what I said. If you can't OHKO mages, you eat a counter. I said nothing of the sort of him being unable to ORKO mages.

You blew things way out of proportion. Allow me to sum up what I wanted:

I blew nothing out of proportion. I didn't even read your post because I wasn't responding to you.

I responded to IOS's proposal to move Catria down with Dolph.

Hence there'd still be a tier difference.

Looks like I'm not the only one who didn't read the opposing side's post at all.

If you'll read MY post again:

Maybe she should drop, but there's enough to warrant a notable gap between them.

Anyway, the main point is that the reason Katua should drop alongside with Dolph (but not Dolph > Katua or w/e unless this recent comparison meant something, though I doubt it) with still a tier difference.

What a lot of this comparison ignores is Dolph's difficulty leveling earlygame, the opportunity cost of Dolph taking a seal in high demand and low supply [that early, anyway] he fact that Dolph hates Killer Bow snipers just as badly as Catria, etc...

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17 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:20 am

I'm not going to bother. Only thing I can REALLY do from here is nitpick. Point is: tier difference between the two I can agree on. As for putting her above Matthis and scrubs atm? Probably can say yes unless someone seriously objects to it. It's not like suddenly Catria is miles better anyway considering the only advantage she has is Mov and she fails to ORKO Mages, which just about any competent unit should be doing at this point. Not to mention that she can't dream of beating those Dracos.

Anyway, the rapid CEXP gain works both ways because Dolph getting a kill gives over 30 CEXP anyway, and at least with the slightly better weapon options it's not totally unreasonable to assume that he can get a kill here and there and, despite his scrubbiness in those chapters offensively, he still has +3 Chapters whether you like it or not. At worst, he'd gain a level per chapter and probably tie with Catria after the desert.

So, whatever, I concede Dolph and Katua in the same tier for the last time.

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It's not like suddenly Catria is miles better anyway considering the only advantage she has is Mov and she fails to ORKO Mages

Speed.

S P E E D, speed. I double and you don't, you get doubled, as a matter of fact. Don't try and pretend that's not an advantage.

Second, no she does not. She fails with JAVELIN. With Steel she does fine. And that's only in C15.

which just about any competent unit should be doing at this point.

Dolph =/= competent unit, he can't ORKO them at all [in C15 anyway]

Anyway, the rapid CEXP gain works both ways because Dolph getting a kill gives over 30 CEXP anyway

On paper, yes.

When you consider how awful Dolph's move and offense are compared to Catria's, him getting kills at the same pace as her is pretty much totally unreasonable.

despite his scrubbiness in those chapters offensively

Offense is not his only problem. No, my much bigger complaint is his move. Factor in that he has a hard time reaching anything before anybody else due to his mov and that he won't do much more than dent something if he actually does, and you'll be hard pressed to give Dolph any kills at all.

he still has +3 Chapters whether you like it or not.

Gordin has +4 chapters on Hardon, whether you like it or not.

How you perform in the extra chapters you're in matter much much more than how many chapters you can perform i.

At worst, he'd gain a level per chapter

How the heck is he getting 3 kills a chapter when he's got so much trouble getting one?

So, whatever, I concede Dolph and Katua in the same tier for the last time.

Obviously we've agreed the gap shouldn't close by that much.

And yet the more I argue this the more I'm convinced that there IS a two (rather than a one) tier gap between them, primarily because you can't do anything but send my argument around in a circle.

ex

Me: "Dolph has a really hard time gaining levels in his chapters, I don't expect him to have a very big level lead at all"
You: "well he gets a lot of EXP from a kill just like Catria"
Me: "Yes but Catria performs much better in the chapters she exists than Dolph does"
You: "But Dolph has 3 chapters on her"

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sPortsman wrote:
It's not like suddenly Catria is miles better anyway considering the only advantage she has is Mov and she fails to ORKO Mages

Speed.

S P E E D, speed. I double and you don't, you get doubled, as a matter of fact. Don't try and pretend that's not an advantage.

Second, no she does not. She fails with JAVELIN. With Steel she does fine. And that's only in C15.
She fails to ORKO unless she gains a ridiculous amount of CEXP in C15 and suddenly dropping the forged Ridersbane on her. It's better for her to kill with Javelin since she gets rewarded with more CEXP with Enemy Phase + Player Phase. Plus, her wielding Steel Lance just asks for the DracoKnight to sneak up on her and kill her within the process. Her doubling before promotion is almost an exaggeration until she procs more Str and likely promotes.
which just about any competent unit should be doing at this point.

Dolph =/= competent unit, he can't ORKO them at all [in C15 anyway]
I didn't say Dolph was competent at that point. My MAIN point is that Catria still has the disadvantage when she's compared against the entire team.

15/7 Barst w/Pure Water can survive two rounds against the Mages. With a Hand Axe he OHKOes. That's pretty significant to beat.

Any Cavalier (Cain, Abel, Hardin) can simply reclass to DracoKnight and still maintain the advantage of Movement and being able to take at least one hit at worst.

Merric takes little damage from these things to begin with and has full Movement in the desert.

The only advantage she has at the moment is the massive CEXP gain. Being able to ORKO without a ranged weapon when everyone else is practically doing it (except maybe Merric but he still has the defensive advantage) isn't very good at all.

I don't have to sit and point out that Dolph doesn't suck either, but should Catria hit Mid Tier status when she's losing to the team for a while?
Anyway, the rapid CEXP gain works both ways because Dolph getting a kill gives over 30 CEXP anyway

On paper, yes.

When you consider how awful Dolph's move and offense are compared to Catria's, him getting kills at the same pace as her is pretty much totally unreasonable.
No, it's quite reasonable. Remember, supposedly this is the game where extending your Mov suddenly doesn't get you anywhere. Perhaps you can run a little more freely at this point, but a point still stands against her and him: they're nowhere comparable to the team when the rest of the team is practically hitting 3HKOes from the Silvers or better.
despite his scrubbiness in those chapters offensively

Offense is not his only problem. No, my much bigger complaint is his move. Factor in that he has a hard time reaching anything before anybody else due to his mov and that he won't do much more than dent something if he actually does, and you'll be hard pressed to give Dolph any kills at all.
You're suddenly making his Mov issues almost x3 of a problem than it should be. There's a lot of enemies up close in Chapter 12X. It's not unreasonable for him to get kills at that point.

In Chapter 13 they're far away, but he can likely reach the Ballistae by turn 3, which IIRC the only units that probably can reach there faster is likely Cavaliers. I don't have the map in front of me.

In Chapter 14 the enemies are still very close to you and they practically charge at your team anyway. So even with his scrubby movement the enemy is still approaching you anyway.

And obviously I concede Chapter 15. But to suddenly say that Dolph is getting... you know you never even stated when she hits Level 12 either. But anyway, to say that Dolph isn't reaching... even 5 levels before Catria seems a bit ridiculous at that point. Consider that he can take a Thief kill in C13 and in C12 all he needs is two kills + two basic hits to net a level up, then in C14 he can have the Ridersbane to help KO things.
he still has +3 Chapters whether you like it or not.

Gordin has +4 chapters on Hardon, whether you like it or not.

How you perform in the extra chapters you're in matter much much more than how many chapters you can perform i.
Except in this case it's a race to see who reaches Level 10 first, in which the three extra chapters matter here. I can understand completely that Catria may have a slightly easier time getting levels in a chapter, but to suddenly speak that she skyrockets 5-7 levels in two chapters is pushing it, especially in 16 where she's not that great to begin with.
At worst, he'd gain a level per chapter

How the heck is he getting 3 kills a chapter when he's got so much trouble getting one?
Again, look at the position of the enemies earlier. In Chapter 14 the Cavaliers move up toward you. As soon as you start crawling toward the throne, the Archers follow up. It's not that difficult for him to get kills there.

Chapter 12X

Only Horace's group won't move and the Armor Knight from the starting point. There's also Cavalier reinforcements that spawn from that fort to the east.

Chapter 13X
He can reach the south ballistae in three turns. If he charges toward the south he can likely face a Thief plus Astram too.

Chapter 14
The two Cavaliers near the Sniper won't move unless you get within their range, IIRC. The Armor Knights aren't terribly difficult to reach and the Thief can at least be blocked by someone with Defense and stay away from the Sniper (which is pretty easy).

Yes the movement disadvantage still stands, but at least enemies approach you anyway, with the exception being 13 and at worst he arrives there a turn late.
So, whatever, I concede Dolph and Katua in the same tier for the last time.

Obviously we've agreed the gap shouldn't close by that much.

And yet the more I argue this the more I'm convinced that there IS a two (rather than a one) tier gap between them, primarily because you can't do anything but send my argument around in a circle.

ex

Me: "Dolph has a really hard time gaining levels in his chapters, I don't expect him to have a very big level lead at all"
You: "well he gets a lot of EXP from a kill just like Catria"
Me: "Yes but Catria performs much better in the chapters she exists than Dolph does"
You: "But Dolph has 3 chapters on her"
[/quote]
There can't be a two tier gap, period, because she is only available for 15-Endgame. Counting, that's 13 chapters, but most of our units beforehand have much more availability then her. Hell, even the scrubs Matthis and co. have a major advantage against her: count 13 chapters for Matthis, 12 for Vyland. Like Dolph, she still has a major availability disadvantage. Then, considering that we aren't sandbagging Warp anymore, she has less weight being good in those later chapters when she finally catches up with the team.

I'll admit Dolph has a Move disadvantage and other shortcomings, hence a tier gap, but suddenly speaking two tier gap between the two is nearing ludicrous when most of those units around her at the moment have better availability barring Nagi, Gato, and Tiki who are merely utility units.

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I have not played 12x, but I don't see how it is beneficial to Armor Knight Dolph in any significant way.



I see two kills at most for Dolph at the beginning, then after that his five move kicks in and is forced to have people lure for him because this is a large map where enemies are spaced out.

He also will not be taking on reinforcements. It is possible to 7 turn this map as per IOS' turn count, so Dolph is not going to even get so much as a telegraphed message that the reinforcements are coming for him.

----

Chapter 13. What is wrong with you people? It takes him four turns to reach the first Ballista as Armor Knight.

----

Chapter 15. You have Dolph positioned as close as possible to the main line, unlock the bridge, then have Dolph attack the Ballista only to have it not die, and now you have two units blocking your advance.

His only hope is going left towards the Archers for self-improvement with a Javelin, and enjoy needing to be level 11 to avoid getting 2RKO'd by the 10 AS variants (Lv. 15 to avoid 2RKO by the 11 AS ones). I suppose you can bring him an extra healer and position them in such a way that Dolph gets attacked and the Healer does not, but it must be someone with D Staves.

----

Chapter 15

He needs to be a ridiculously high level to one shot Mages with Silver (because the ones standing in yoru way are the only enemies he'll ever touch on this map), otherwise, forget about it.

----

Chapter 16

Oh, cool, finally enemies that reach him instead of him trying to reach enemies. Too bad they all double him with excellent Atk.

I think that's enough to show, since if you can't get out of your fail period in your first couple of chapters, you aren't going to manage for the rest of the game.

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21 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:36 am

*Looks up at FE3's post*

See that? That's why I argued Dolph up as something else rather than armor knight originally. Even his starting chapter, it's better to just have him be something else. Looking up at that map, the rivers make it prime for pirates to waterwalk, and Dolph with an iron axe is only a 4 might loss to armor Dolph (Steel lance 3 might difference to iron axe+C rank damage bonus). Unless you somehow kept the Ridersbane for this long, I don't see why javelins would make armor's performance that much better than pirate. This, the next chapter (is it really that big a deal to keep Dolph an armor? 4 move only ensures he closes in to one ballistae, meaning he can't take the south route, or any route without someone destroying the ballistae in their area first so that a ballistae doesn't target Dolph from another route, of which require the ballistae to use specific kinds of ammo) and Gra (you don't get ridersbane until the end of the chapter) are opportune times to train Dolph as anything else for the superior (outside of defense, of which his growths are still perfectly fine except now it will bolster his HP) growths.

It's fine for him to retreat back to armor at some point for the C rank, but until then I don't think he wants to be an armor until at least we get Ridersbane stock again.

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22 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:47 am

See that? That's why I argued Dolph up as something else rather than armor knight originally. Even his starting chapter, it's better to just have him be something else.
It doesn't matter, he's still a terrible character no matter how you look at it. Your ideas are completely negated by how much damage he does to enemies (hint: His Str is less than most enemies' Def), and is two-rounded for a very long time (he must be level 15 to be 3RKO'd by an enemy with 23 attack, for example).

Ideas and training programs != tier positions.

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23 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:50 am

FE3_Player wrote:
See that? That's why I argued Dolph up as something else rather than armor knight originally. Even his starting chapter, it's better to just have him be something else.
It doesn't matter, he's still a terrible character no matter how you look at it. Your ideas are completely negated by how much damage he does to enemies (hint: His Str is less than most enemies' Def), and is two-rounded for a very long time (he must be level 15 to be 3RKO'd by an enemy with 23 attack, for example).

Ideas and training programs != tier positions.

Not saying that's not true, but it's better than times where he's just getting ORKOd as an armor thanks to his speed, da?

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24 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:07 am

Just because it's better doesn't mean it helps his tier position.

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25 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:10 am

FE3_Player wrote:Just because it's better doesn't mean it helps his tier position.

I know, just wanted to get some facts straight is all.

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26 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:28 am

What facts did you get straight? Stuff that's already obvious to most people in the first place?

You like to constantly talk about ways that "characters can perform better" while completely ignoring huge issues that, no matter what you do, is not going to make a character any good. Yes, he has more move and Axes, everyone already knows this and does not be needed to be told this. I am sick and tired of long posts from you that just talk about things that a child can figure out.

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27 Re: Dolph and Macellan shouldn't be a tier apart on Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:30 am

FE3_Player wrote:What facts did you get straight? Stuff that's already obvious to most people in the first place?

You like to constantly talk about ways that "characters can perform better" while completely ignoring huge issues that, no matter what you do, is not going to make a character any good. Yes, he has more move and Axes, everyone already knows this and does not be needed to be told this. I am sick and tired of long posts from you that just talk about things that a child can figure out.

Then a simple "we get it" would have sufficed.

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FE3_Player wrote:I have not played 12x, but I don't see how it is beneficial to Armor Knight Dolph in any significant way.



I see two kills at most for Dolph at the beginning, then after that his five move kicks in and is forced to have people lure for him because this is a large map where enemies are spaced out.

He also will not be taking on reinforcements. It is possible to 7 turn this map as per IOS' turn count, so Dolph is not going to even get so much as a telegraphed message that the reinforcements are coming for him.

Okay, so there would technically be his "one level".

----

Chapter 13. What is wrong with you people? It takes him four turns to reach the first Ballista as Armor Knight.
Unless the map isn't to scale, I count 3 turns tops.
----

Chapter 15. You have Dolph positioned as close as possible to the main line, unlock the bridge, then have Dolph attack the Ballista only to have it not die, and now you have two units blocking your advance.
You can have Dolph attack 2 range...

His only hope is going left towards the Archers for self-improvement with a Javelin, and enjoy needing to be level 11 to avoid getting 2RKO'd by the 10 AS variants (Lv. 15 to avoid 2RKO by the 11 AS ones). I suppose you can bring him an extra healer and position them in such a way that Dolph gets attacked and the Healer does not, but it must be someone with D Staves.
Simply advance south. Why would you advance west with... Literally anyone to get smashed by Silvers and Longbows?

----

Chapter 15

He needs to be a ridiculously high level to one shot Mages with Silver (because the ones standing in yoru way are the only enemies he'll ever touch on this map), otherwise, forget about it.
And as I said for the 9001 time: unless he approaches Hunter on this chapter (which he can), I already conceded it.
----

Chapter 16

Oh, cool, finally enemies that reach him instead of him trying to reach enemies. Too bad they all double him with excellent Atk.
If he isn't Level 10 and we sandbag a seal on him.

---

Armor Knight and Hunter sucks either way before promotion. I'm baffled that we're driving away from a point: after I already conceded to Dolph being a tier under Catria this crap still continues. Instead of me having to beat a dead horse with Catria, can we actually find a reason that Catria should be barred from falling without driving Dolph as an example since the main reason she should drop is the less weight of lategame and how "reasonable" it is for Catria to get 5-7 levels without massive favoritism?

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She fails to ORKO unless she gains a ridiculous amount of CEXP in C15 and suddenly dropping the forged Ridersbane on her.

Dropping the forged Ridersbane on her? wtf? Don't act like Dolph doesn't need a forged Ridersbane himself.


Furthermore, she gets 2RKOd just like everyone else [but Merric/Lena]. She ORKOs mages, just like everybody else. She has massive mov in the desert [Which not everybody else has], and can't ORKO with Javelins, no, but like the only other person who can match her mobility [Shiida] isn't, either.

15/7 Barst w/Pure Water can survive two rounds against the Mages. With a Hand Axe he OHKOes. That's pretty significant to beat.

Any Cavalier (Cain, Abel, Hardin) can simply reclass to DracoKnight and still maintain the advantage of Movement and being able to take at least one hit at worst.

Merric takes little damage from these things to begin with and has full Movement in the desert.

The only advantage she has at the moment is the massive CEXP gain. Being able to ORKO without a ranged weapon when everyone else is practically doing it (except maybe Merric but he still has the defensive advantage) isn't very good at all.


First, we're not comparing Catria vs the entire team.

We're comparing Catria vs Dolph.


Second, Why the hell are you comparing Catria to Abel/Cain/Merric/Barst?

Units she's already one or two tiers under, implying she's much worse than them already?

All of the above have fuckballs for mov in the desert, too, excluding Merric, who also cannot ORKO the mages at range [unless he whips out Excalibur]

Except in this case it's a race to see who reaches Level 10 first, in which the three extra chapters matter here. I can understand completely that Catria may have a slightly easier time getting levels in a chapter, but to suddenly speak that she skyrockets 5-7 levels in two chapters is pushing it, especially in 16 where she's not that great to begin with.

It's two extra chapters, non-Etzel gaidens shouldn't be assumed so easily, and in C13 he is absolutely dumbshit awful to the point where he won't be getting any CEXP whatsoever.

Second, Catria joins midway in C4, leaving her plenty of time to do stuff, so it's really more like just half a chapter.

You don't seriously think Dolph can scrap together a halfway decent head start with his terrible performance in half a chapter, do you?

You're suddenly making his Mov issues almost x3 of a problem than it should be.

No, I'm not, Darth covered it already.

There can't be a two tier gap, period, because she is only available for 15-Endgame. Counting, that's 13 chapters, but most of our units beforehand have much more availability then her. Hell, even the scrubs Matthis and co. have a major advantage against her: count 13 chapters for Matthis, 12 for Vyland. Like Dolph, she still has a major availability disadvantage. Then, considering that we aren't sandbagging Warp anymore, she has less weight being good in those later chapters when she finally catches up with the team.

I'll admit Dolph has a Move disadvantage and other shortcomings, hence a tier gap, but suddenly speaking two tier gap between the two is nearing ludicrous when most of those units around her at the moment have better availability barring Nagi, Gato, and Tiki who are merely utility units.

Can you stop mentioning availability ever other sentence? We don't tier characters based on availability alone.

Second, it's not just lategame where Catria wins. As I've explained to you several times already.


Unless the map isn't to scale, I count 3 turns tops.

Yeah, we're totally going to wait three turns for Dolph to ice the first ballistae.

It doesn't matter that he can snipe our guys on all sides of the fields, and having one of them die means that the ballistae on the lower/upper end of the map stay around longer, which means we still have to deal with them sniping us.

No, it is of utmost importance that Dolph gains CEXP first before the ballistae die, CEXP that doesn't change his performance at all [Hey guys I'm still getting doubled and two rounded by liek everything]

You can have Dolph attack 2 range...

wtf

How does that change a single thing he said?

Simply advance south. Why would you advance west with... Literally anyone to get smashed by Silvers and Longbows?

Thanks for mentioning that longbows would snipe a healer and thus make it pretty damn hard for Dolph to do the self improvement thing, never mind that if peg reinforcements come around Dolph's screwed with a 10 foot pole.

Now I don't have to.

If he isn't Level 10 and we sandbag a seal on him.

We're not sandbagging a seal on anybody.

At the same time, assuming him a seal over everybody else who wants one when we have so few to work with at the moment is pure favoritism.

And no, I don't think he's level ten. Especially since gaidens aren't assumed anymore.

I'm baffled that we're driving away from a point: after I already conceded to Dolph being a tier under Catria this crap still continues.


This debate was never about whether or not Catria was a tier under Dolph.

It was about if Catria should drop in the first place, and if the answer was yes, where should she fall?

The more you hand-wave Dolph's terrible move and combat parameters before Catria exists which severely limits his level head start (not that it matters much because Catria is performing much better than he does even at a lower level), and that he might not have one of his chapters to work with at all, the more I'm convinced that the gap doesn't need to close in the first place.
She will level up faster than Dolph on the premise that she's just outright better, and due to his awful stats where he comes in Dolph will not build up much of a head start.

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