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Marcus back to high tier

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1 Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:08 am

First topic message reminder :

c/p from SF, specifically comparing Marcus to Lot.

Marcus's contributions in Ch 1 alone are hilarious. Reikken emphasized that earlygame Marcus makes a bigger impact than any other individual unit in any other chapter (or chapters, I suppose).

In Ch 1, the rest of your team is 2-3RKO'd, generally 2RKO'd. The only ones avoiding 2RKO are Bors if he doesn't get doubled (gets doubled by about half the axe enemies) and Alan against two weaker Fighters (they have either 17 or 18 Atk, once again about evenly distributed, so if two with 17 Atk hit him Alan can survive with 1 Hp), and 6 of them rush you at the start, including an Archer, so in reality it's almost never safe to expose anyone to more than 1 Fighter at a time. And you're 3-4RKOing in return (generally 4RKOing, only Alan has a consistent 3RKO). Without Marcus your performance, or even the survival of your units at all (if you get unlucky with dodging/hitting, you may be forced to sac someone), is partially luck-based, and even assuming that things mostly go in your favor, you have to slow down massively in order to advance without risking your units' lives.

Without Marcus you have to wall off the initial rush of enemies at the chokepoint above your starting position and just camp there, not moving forward at all for multiple turns, to avoid any casualties while you slowly wear down the enemies. You can't really do anything else except turtle, as otherwise you risk the Archer + 2 Fighters ganging up on someone for a high chance of death, which slows you down in the rest of the chapter (or longer than that if it's Alan/Lance that bites it). Considering that your units mostly 4RKO and you can only safely counter/attack with 1-2 of them at a time, this takes quite a while. Assuming a 4RKO with two units acting per player/enemy phase, it takes you 5 turns just to take care of the 5 axemen, and then another one for the Archer.

This is about twice as long as it takes to get past this with Marcus in the picture, who reduces that 4RKO to a OHKO for 2-3 enemies per turn. With Marcus countering two enemies and attacking one per turn, you take out the initial rush in literally half the time or less. The rest of the chapter proceeds similarly; you don't have the enemies actively rushing you anymore, so you don't have to turtle as much w/o Marcus, but you also have to waste turns using Vulneraries to heal. Whereas with Marcus in the picture, no one needs to heal at all. Even with single-digit Hp, your swordies can safely off a couple enemies lured in by Marcus with minimal risk.

Then the boss takes exponentially longer to kill without Marcus. Assuming Alan proc'd Str, he does 5 damage per counter, and then Wolt does 1 damage and Javelin Bors does 3 (with atrocious hit), while the boss regens 3 Hp per turn. He heals faster than you can hurt him unless Alan keeps dodging and remains able to counter, and if Alan gets hit he has to use a Vulnerary twice while the boss sits and regens, so you're set back a turn or two for every time that happens (and if you get screwed badly enough and run out of Vulneraries, then you're just, well, screwed).

Playing this chapter normally, I got a turncount of 11. I then tried to play it with Marcus stuffed into the lower left corner. After a few resets, I managed to beat it without any deaths, for a turncount of 31. To show how absurd that is, allow me to quote Reikken from one of his debaets:

And btw, even a 1-turn improvement is still very substantial. Considering that it's one action by one unit in one chapter. Or even if it's just like 70% of a turn. It really adds up. To help put that in perspective, if you have just two 70%-of-a-turn things per chapter by just 7 of your like 10-12 units over the game's 30ish chapters, that's about 300 turns.

--

I'll take a moment to say a bit more on that before moving on. Let's take just Thany, over ch 2-6. i.e. before Zealot joins. Just her saving 0.7 turns twice per chapter (This is being very conservative. It easily amounts to much more than this, especially considering that it's using Thany vs using no one at all for the first 4 and then Thany vs the likes of Bors and Wolt for ch 6), that amounts to 7 turns. Does Zealot save you 7 turns all by himself in ch 7? I think not. You can even spend a few turns retreating a bit from the wyverns and whatever else, while getting better positioning and thinning them enough to advance again, and still come out fewer than 7 turns under.


Obviously from a Thany vs Zealot debaet, but the principles still apply. Marcus here is shaving off 20 turns in one chapter. You might claim that 20 is too high or inflated or w/e, but if so, then I'm fairly sure it's not by much. He lets you move about twice as fast before reaching the boss, at least, and then speeds up your boss-killing by even greater factor than that. And that's Ch 1 alone.

Compare to Lot's stuff after Marcus is gone. First of all it's not 30 chapters for Lot; if he makes the team, then he's almost certainly among the worst on the team and unlikely to be taken into gaidens, which have reduced numbers of deployment slots (all gaidens except 20x have 8-10 unit slots). Next let's consider a team of 12 units.

Roy
Lance
Alan
Dieck
Rutger
Miledy
Percival
Clarine
Echidna
Lalum
Gonzales
Thany

Whoops, that's 12. Lot's not even on there. And there's still another combat unit ranked between him and Thany, and I wonder whether or not you would seriously use a team with only 1 staff user for the entire game (again, maybe we should argue Ellen/Saul up). Lot's looking at more like doing filler duty until Percival shows up or something. So I do indeed find it difficult to believe that Lot finds more significant contributions than Marcus over the course of the game.

And yes, I would argue a tier gap instead of the two spaces gap that currently exists between Lot and Marcus. Marcus deserves to be substantially higher than any unit that isn't getting used for the whole game on a good team, and I'd think him to be around the same level as the lower end units on said good team. To take another example, I wonder why Astohl is a tier higher than Marcus. Astohl is not particularly good at fighting (IIRC; maybe I'm wrong about this?), and any thief duties can be replaced by Chad, whereas to quote Reikken yet again, no substitutions of any kind can make up for what Marcus offers. I don't see how a team disallowed from using Marcus would have a lower turncount than a team disallowed from using Astohl.

It looks to me like the evidence that moved him out of high in the first place was extremely weak. I recall only someone mentioning that he does poorly in Ch 13 or something, which is ofcourse entirely beside the point of what he has to offer. That's like bashing Chad because his combat is bad against Ch 21 Wyverns.

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51 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:25 am

There's no limit to how many you can buy, IIRC, and unless you can buy enough to max out everyone's Spd (obviously not), more are still useful. If you have money coming out the ass and can buy alot of wings anyways, then assume a wing for each of them and an extra wing for Zealot, since Zealot's team will still have an extra 5K to blow which will be missing from Noah's team.

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52 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:27 am

What does a C21 wing do for Zealot anyway? It makes him not get doubled. Whoop. De. Fucking. Do.

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53 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:29 am

sPortsman wrote:What does a C21 wing do for Zealot anyway? It makes him not get doubled. Whoop. De. Fucking. Do.

It lets him double paladins.

Unless you meant he gets 2 wings, which case 16+4=20, which doubles those 16 AS wyvern lords.

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54 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:30 am

The wing would actually come after Ch 21, I believe. Unless the secret shop is near your starting point (which they usually aren't), it's doubtful that you'll be able to get the wing to Zealot during the actual chapter before it's done or nearly done.

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55 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:31 am

Oh, and btw, cool job ignoring this topic when updating the list.

The discussion is still very much ongoing.

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56 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:33 am

Basically a second wing is only needed to double the wyvern lords. One wing is enough to double the next common enemy through the next two chapters, those being paladins and snipers. Everything else is either slower, or are heroes of which you'd need to be like Fir, Rutger, Lance and Clarine to double them.

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57 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:53 am

It lets him double paladins.

Yeah

with his awesome 13.5 str

essentially he went from having shit offense to having shit offense

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58 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:12 pm

Vykan12 wrote:
Oh, and btw, cool job ignoring this topic when updating the list.

The discussion is still very much ongoing.

Fair enough.

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59 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:35 pm

Why does Noah have to rise if Zealot rises? Noah's predicament against Zealot is the same thing as Lot's predicament against Marcus, except Lot is better than Noah lategame.

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60 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:45 pm

This is why:

Post 1.

Post 2.

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61 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:11 pm

So wait, the argument "Zealot is getting his ass kicked [by Noah]" is valid whereas the argument "Marcus is getting his ass kicked by Lot" can be ignored? The basis of Marcus going back into high tier is that he gets more weight for being good for a shorter period of time than Lot gets for being less good for a longer period of time. Zealot is still very good for a certain period of time, whereas Noah is more mediocre than Lot, so why doesn't this line of logic apply for Zealot?

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62 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:17 pm

Zealot never really kicks Noah's ass (in fact they're tying when Noah's about lv 15) whereas Marcus has that whole "near infinite" utility in earlygame going on. I suggest you look at the recent posts in the SF topic for more on that.

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63 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:31 pm

Zealot contributes more to an efficient run than Noah for the exact same reasons that Marcus contributes more than Lot. This is pretty obvious.

People often take issue with this, though, because they think that debates between lower end units will become boring if you apply this logic to everyone, since the lower you go on the list, the less a unit is used on an efficient run. It was proposed that debates such as Wil vs Rath would just consist of their join chapter contributions, which would be boring, and etc. Whether or not this is actually true is something I find questionable, seeing as how such a debate has never actually been attempted, and some debates don't get any more "interesting" even if you use both units for the whole game. For example Gordin vs Vyland; if you take contributions towards absolute efficiency only, Gordin obviously wins, but if you use them for the whole game regardless, it's just an equally obvious win for Vyland instead.

I don't personally find myself caring about making discussion "boring" in exchange for accuracy, but I will say that whatever the case, such complaints absolutely should not be applied to units that actually have serious contributions towards a true efficient run. If it's a couple of shitty units who contribute little or nothing to absolute efficiency anyways, then w/e, but in the case of someone like Marcus with big contributions, those contributions should not be ignored or sandbagged in any way. Sacrificing accuracy in exchange for more lively discussion is cool with units who are just tiny blips on the radar and barely matter anyways, but I'd rather not lose accuracy with the units that count.

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64 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:23 am

Vykan12 wrote:Zealot never really kicks Noah's ass (in fact they're tying when Noah's about lv 15) whereas Marcus has that whole "near infinite" utility in earlygame going on. I suggest you look at the recent posts in the SF topic for more on that.

15 Noah
33 HP, 10.4 Str, 10.6 Skill, 11.4 Speed, 9.2 Luck, 9.4 Def, 1.8 Res

Base Zealot
35 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 5 Luck, 11 Def, 7 Res, superior weapon rank and selection.

They tie strength and avoid and Noah wins luck. However, I'm pretty sure 13 speed doubles things that 11 can't (example, 13 speed is needed to double the majority of the island, all 11 speed is getting is pirates with steel, and only if they're the slower kind. This is implying that we're still in the isles when he hits level 15, 8 levels in 2 and a half chapters ain't happening). Zealot beats him offensively because of it, along with greater weapon selection and rank, and defensively it's 2 HP, 2 Def and 6 Res in Zealot's favor, along with triangle control. How the fuck is Noah tieing him?

Then you have to realistically ask yourself when Noah hits level 15?

But you know what? I'll humor you. Let's promote Noah.

20/1 Noah
39.75 HP, 13.9 Str, 14.85 Skill, 14.9 Speed, 11.2 Luck, 12.9 Def, 5.3 Res

9 Zealot
41 HP, 12 Str, 13.6 Skill, 14.6 Speed, 6.2 Luck, 13.4 Def, 8.2 Res, Still superior weapon rank.

Noah wins 1-2 Str and 5 Luck, 1 Skill, Zealot wins by 2 HP, 1 Def and 3 Res. That 1-2 Str can be made up by Zealot whipping out a stronger axe, because he has had time to build the rank. Noah wins 5 avoid and 7 hit, big whoop.

The question is not when Noah ties, but how well he keeps up with him. Apparently, he needs to promote just to tie him generally.

True, Noah has Fir. Also true that Zealot has Tate, a unit superior to Noah. Not only that, Tate has an easier time keeping up with Zealot than Fir does with Noah. Noah will keep his 5 avoid lead, but IcexDarkness makes up for Zealot's loss in hit and crit evade, thus tieing up whatever loose ends there are, so all Noah can brag about now is 3 more might.

Even later, let's see how much Noah wins.

20/10 Noah-A Fir
46.5 HP, 16.6+3 Str, 18.9 Skill, 17.6 Speed, 14.8 Luck, 15.6+1 Def, 6.2+1 Res. 43+7 hit, 48+15 avoid, 9+7 crit.

15 Zealot-A Tate
45.5 HP, 13.5 Str, 14.8 Skill, 15.8 Speed, 7.1 Luck, 15.2+1 Def, 9.1+1 Res. 30+15 Hit, 37+15 avoid, 7+7 crit.

Do note that I could have given Zealot one of two speedwings, so if 17 AS is insufficient to double, Noah's in just as much trouble as Zealot could be.

However, we can finally see that Noah wins. Fun part is that technically, Zealot still wins durability outside of avoid (if you were willing to throw a speedwing Zealot's way, the difference is 9), as 1 HP vs 3 Res can be somewhat interchangeable. However, I can't exactly ignore a 9 might lead. On the doubling, Noah's doing a whopping 18 more damage. However, comparing, Noah's wins appear only to be a 9 might and 11-9 avoid lead. As sizeable as those are, it took him quite a long time to muster up a lead of basically saying "I'm Zealot if he could do 18 more theoretical damage in one round of combat".

This is if he's doubling consistantly with 17 AS. If he's not, than he's still doing poorly. Which case, I could handily give Zealot the win simply for starting off good where Noah is still a very iffy unit.

I'd rather have someone starting off comparing to the top tiers>18 more damage in the lategame.

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65 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:31 am

Noah's lategame wins over Zealot are "irrelevant" anyway. If you consider them relevant, then we should stick to the same standard and declare Lot's mid to lategame wins over Marcus relevant.

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66 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:03 am

In fact, what does this say about Zealot? He's basically a lower mid unit without the things that qualify hm to be lower mid. He doesn't need training like Noah, and basically comes out what Noah ends up being, if a bit lacking in might (since he's fine everywhere else). At least with Zealot, we can say we drop him eventually and we lose nothing, while Noah we'd need a knight's crest, since he hasn't been anything spectacular so far.

How does this qualify for Zealot being in lower mid, much less below Noah, Tate, what have you? I just don't see it. If Marcus can be brought to high on the basis that we can say we can drop him eventually, I demand Zealot rise to upper mid for the same reason.

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67 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:25 pm

At least with Zealot, we can say we drop him eventually and we lose nothing

I thought your previous list assumed units were used their entire availability. If we drop Zealot at his low point, of course he'll rise (Marcus too).

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68 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:11 pm

That was a retarded rule nobody likes (or actually follows ingame, for that matter) so it was dropped.

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69 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:19 pm

Vykan12 wrote:
At least with Zealot, we can say we drop him eventually and we lose nothing

I thought your previous list assumed units were used their entire availability. If we drop Zealot at his low point, of course he'll rise (Marcus too).

It's also not how this list is going, so dash the rule at this point. It's not like I'm totally against it either, I probably would have changed it eventually.

Besides, this is to go with accuracy. If Marcus can get into high with it, Zealot should get to upper mid. To keep things consistent.

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70 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:42 pm

I don't see why Marcus going up would mean Zealot should as well when you consider this:

CAT5 wrote:Those first 6 chapters are where Marcus makes the biggest impact. Look at Ch 1 again. Marcus is 2-3 times better than any of your other units in that chapter, to the point of cutting your turncount in half or even more, all by himself.

Whereas if Marcus is already mediocre by Ch 9, Zealot himself shouldn't be worth using for much longer, and obviously he's never making as big of an impact as Marcus did early on. Around Ch 8-9, Zealot is what, about equal to your better units (Alan/Lance/etc)? Too lazy to pull out a really detailed comparison, but L11 Lance w/ double C's already has similar offense to base Zealot. Whereas Marcus starts out way, way better than any other unit.

I don't necessarily disagree with Zealot moving up, but I do think that "he's better for longer" than Marcus isn't much of an argument if he's still not worth using.

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71 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:47 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:I don't see why Marcus going up would mean Zealot should as well when you consider this:

CAT5 wrote:Those first 6 chapters are where Marcus makes the biggest impact. Look at Ch 1 again. Marcus is 2-3 times better than any of your other units in that chapter, to the point of cutting your turncount in half or even more, all by himself.

Whereas if Marcus is already mediocre by Ch 9, Zealot himself shouldn't be worth using for much longer, and obviously he's never making as big of an impact as Marcus did early on. Around Ch 8-9, Zealot is what, about equal to your better units (Alan/Lance/etc)? Too lazy to pull out a really detailed comparison, but L11 Lance w/ double C's already has similar offense to base Zealot. Whereas Marcus starts out way, way better than any other unit.

I don't necessarily disagree with Zealot moving up, but I do think that "he's better for longer" than Marcus isn't much of an argument if he's still not worth using.

Zealot's got leads that allow him to stay useful in the isles, where Marcus's uses abruptly stop there.

Yeah, Zealot doesn't say he's as helpful as Marcus is, but then again I'm not asking Zealot go up there with him, am I?

At least upper mid in the Ilia route, he can get 14 AS to double the pegasi by then. He's perhaps not quite as worthy going Sacae.

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72 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:51 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
Red Fox of Fire wrote:I don't see why Marcus going up would mean Zealot should as well when you consider this:

CAT5 wrote:Those first 6 chapters are where Marcus makes the biggest impact. Look at Ch 1 again. Marcus is 2-3 times better than any of your other units in that chapter, to the point of cutting your turncount in half or even more, all by himself.

Whereas if Marcus is already mediocre by Ch 9, Zealot himself shouldn't be worth using for much longer, and obviously he's never making as big of an impact as Marcus did early on. Around Ch 8-9, Zealot is what, about equal to your better units (Alan/Lance/etc)? Too lazy to pull out a really detailed comparison, but L11 Lance w/ double C's already has similar offense to base Zealot. Whereas Marcus starts out way, way better than any other unit.

I don't necessarily disagree with Zealot moving up, but I do think that "he's better for longer" than Marcus isn't much of an argument if he's still not worth using.

Zealot's got leads that allow him to stay useful in the isles, where Marcus's uses abruptly stop there.

Yeah, Zealot doesn't say he's as helpful as Marcus is, but then again I'm not asking Zealot go up there with him, am I?

At least upper mid in the Ilia route, he can get 14 AS to double the pegasi by then. He's perhaps not quite as worthy going Sacae.
What I'm saying is that just because Marcus might go up doesn't mean Zealot should as well, which is what you said before. If you can prove him worthy of being an Upper Mid unit, that's fine, but I really don't see how Marcus going up is relevant since Zealot's position is only really similar in that he gets dropped, but I don't even know if that's happening considering you're talking about his performance in Ilia.

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73 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:59 pm

Base Zealot
35 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 5 Luck, 11 Def, 7 Res

20 Lou
25.5 HP, 11.6 Mag, 14.5 Skill, 15.5 Speed, 11.6 Luck, 5.85 Def, 10.7 Res

Ok, so Lou wins by 5 Luck, 2-3 Speed, 1-2 Skill, 3 Res. Zealot's winning by 10-9 HP, 6-5 Def. Lou might double a bit more often, but Zealot's got a myriad of weapons to choose from. Then, look at just how much more durable he is, it's staggering. Lou WOULD win avoid by 10, if Zealot didn't have total weapon control.

Lou has to promote to beat him. Granted, Lou smokes him out of the water post-promotion in versatility, but then again Zealot won't be still at base by the time Lou is level 20. Zealot this far has also been relatively free, while Lou needs a ring, of which he takes form Clarine and Saul.

So yeah, I see ample reason, that reason being that while he's not leaving as much an impact as Marcus, he's still your best guy upon showing up.

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74 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:20 pm

I'm not opposed to moving Zealot up, but I agree that there is no particular reason why it must be done if Marcus goes up a tier, and at this point I think maybe we should make a separate topic for Zealot if discussion on that is going to continue.

Also keep in mind that Zealot has some room to climb within his tier, whereas Marcus is already at the very top of upper mid.

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75 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:39 pm

CAT5 wrote:
Also keep in mind that Zealot has some room to climb within his tier, whereas Marcus is already at the very top of upper mid.

Ok fine, so Bartre and Cecilia might be a bit of a toughie, since all he's really got on Bartre is weapon choice, move and availability, while Cecilia's got healer+minor anti air+supports that would actually like having her around.

Might have a case on Tate though? She's Noh without the training and superior growths, but she's stuck to one weapon, needs a promotion item, and obviously Zealot is far more available. Only problem might be the Klein support...

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76 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm

Mekkah

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Admin
Zealot's got leads that allow him to stay useful in the isles, where Marcus's uses abruptly stop there.

Can you try elaborting on this with _numbers_?

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77 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:43 pm

Mekkah wrote:
Zealot's got leads that allow him to stay useful in the isles, where Marcus's uses abruptly stop there.

Can you try elaborting on this with _numbers_?

To double something other than the enemies in chapter 9, you need 13 speed, which is Zealot's base. Marcus needs to gain 4 levels just to double the enemies at the front door.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch11a.html

Hand axers, faster end archers and DMs are out of the question.

Ok, doesn't end ABRUPTLY at the start, but it does hit a speed bump there.

...Actually, next chapter enemies aren't that much faster.

Hmm...12 AS stops doubling common threats at around...The desert, actually. That's some pretty good mileage.

Ok, perhaps I underestimated Marcus there. He doesn't seem too slowed down by the isles at all.

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78 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:46 pm

Mekkah

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Admin
Then I suggest you follow the same plan as everyone:
1) do homework
2) post

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79 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:52 pm

Mekkah wrote:Then I suggest you follow the same plan as everyone:
1) do homework
2) post

So I was under the assumption most others had that Zealot picked up where Marcus left off. Forgive me on that.

On the other hand, this extends Marcus's useful period for quite a longer amount of time, since now he's got the isles. Marcus would have 10 Str (ok, 9.75, still a good chance), so really he could keep trucking and we can just completely ignore Zealot. He wouldn't be as tough (still loses 2 Def, a bit of HP), but he's had more time to work on weapon ranks (for axes and swords, though I suppose he would be working to tie Zealot in that aspect).

But basically you could add the islands onto Marcus's decent list. But I can now understand Zealot's placement in lower mid, as you don't really need him when Marcus is still around, or is sort of not given full redit if he's working alongside Marcus.

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80 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:16 pm

Marcus has pretty much no chance to double Hand Axe fighters or Iron Bow archers in chapter 9 (who have 9 AS), whereas Zealot starts with 13 AS. Hand Axe fighters in chapter 11E have 10 AS; Marcus also has virtually no chance to double them whereas Zealot only needs to proc spd once, which isn't all too unlikely.

Marcus's usefulness drops abruptly starting in chapter 9, but he's still good. It's just that Zealot is much better.

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