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Marcus back to high tier

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1 Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:08 am

c/p from SF, specifically comparing Marcus to Lot.

Marcus's contributions in Ch 1 alone are hilarious. Reikken emphasized that earlygame Marcus makes a bigger impact than any other individual unit in any other chapter (or chapters, I suppose).

In Ch 1, the rest of your team is 2-3RKO'd, generally 2RKO'd. The only ones avoiding 2RKO are Bors if he doesn't get doubled (gets doubled by about half the axe enemies) and Alan against two weaker Fighters (they have either 17 or 18 Atk, once again about evenly distributed, so if two with 17 Atk hit him Alan can survive with 1 Hp), and 6 of them rush you at the start, including an Archer, so in reality it's almost never safe to expose anyone to more than 1 Fighter at a time. And you're 3-4RKOing in return (generally 4RKOing, only Alan has a consistent 3RKO). Without Marcus your performance, or even the survival of your units at all (if you get unlucky with dodging/hitting, you may be forced to sac someone), is partially luck-based, and even assuming that things mostly go in your favor, you have to slow down massively in order to advance without risking your units' lives.

Without Marcus you have to wall off the initial rush of enemies at the chokepoint above your starting position and just camp there, not moving forward at all for multiple turns, to avoid any casualties while you slowly wear down the enemies. You can't really do anything else except turtle, as otherwise you risk the Archer + 2 Fighters ganging up on someone for a high chance of death, which slows you down in the rest of the chapter (or longer than that if it's Alan/Lance that bites it). Considering that your units mostly 4RKO and you can only safely counter/attack with 1-2 of them at a time, this takes quite a while. Assuming a 4RKO with two units acting per player/enemy phase, it takes you 5 turns just to take care of the 5 axemen, and then another one for the Archer.

This is about twice as long as it takes to get past this with Marcus in the picture, who reduces that 4RKO to a OHKO for 2-3 enemies per turn. With Marcus countering two enemies and attacking one per turn, you take out the initial rush in literally half the time or less. The rest of the chapter proceeds similarly; you don't have the enemies actively rushing you anymore, so you don't have to turtle as much w/o Marcus, but you also have to waste turns using Vulneraries to heal. Whereas with Marcus in the picture, no one needs to heal at all. Even with single-digit Hp, your swordies can safely off a couple enemies lured in by Marcus with minimal risk.

Then the boss takes exponentially longer to kill without Marcus. Assuming Alan proc'd Str, he does 5 damage per counter, and then Wolt does 1 damage and Javelin Bors does 3 (with atrocious hit), while the boss regens 3 Hp per turn. He heals faster than you can hurt him unless Alan keeps dodging and remains able to counter, and if Alan gets hit he has to use a Vulnerary twice while the boss sits and regens, so you're set back a turn or two for every time that happens (and if you get screwed badly enough and run out of Vulneraries, then you're just, well, screwed).

Playing this chapter normally, I got a turncount of 11. I then tried to play it with Marcus stuffed into the lower left corner. After a few resets, I managed to beat it without any deaths, for a turncount of 31. To show how absurd that is, allow me to quote Reikken from one of his debaets:

And btw, even a 1-turn improvement is still very substantial. Considering that it's one action by one unit in one chapter. Or even if it's just like 70% of a turn. It really adds up. To help put that in perspective, if you have just two 70%-of-a-turn things per chapter by just 7 of your like 10-12 units over the game's 30ish chapters, that's about 300 turns.

--

I'll take a moment to say a bit more on that before moving on. Let's take just Thany, over ch 2-6. i.e. before Zealot joins. Just her saving 0.7 turns twice per chapter (This is being very conservative. It easily amounts to much more than this, especially considering that it's using Thany vs using no one at all for the first 4 and then Thany vs the likes of Bors and Wolt for ch 6), that amounts to 7 turns. Does Zealot save you 7 turns all by himself in ch 7? I think not. You can even spend a few turns retreating a bit from the wyverns and whatever else, while getting better positioning and thinning them enough to advance again, and still come out fewer than 7 turns under.


Obviously from a Thany vs Zealot debaet, but the principles still apply. Marcus here is shaving off 20 turns in one chapter. You might claim that 20 is too high or inflated or w/e, but if so, then I'm fairly sure it's not by much. He lets you move about twice as fast before reaching the boss, at least, and then speeds up your boss-killing by even greater factor than that. And that's Ch 1 alone.

Compare to Lot's stuff after Marcus is gone. First of all it's not 30 chapters for Lot; if he makes the team, then he's almost certainly among the worst on the team and unlikely to be taken into gaidens, which have reduced numbers of deployment slots (all gaidens except 20x have 8-10 unit slots). Next let's consider a team of 12 units.

Roy
Lance
Alan
Dieck
Rutger
Miledy
Percival
Clarine
Echidna
Lalum
Gonzales
Thany

Whoops, that's 12. Lot's not even on there. And there's still another combat unit ranked between him and Thany, and I wonder whether or not you would seriously use a team with only 1 staff user for the entire game (again, maybe we should argue Ellen/Saul up). Lot's looking at more like doing filler duty until Percival shows up or something. So I do indeed find it difficult to believe that Lot finds more significant contributions than Marcus over the course of the game.

And yes, I would argue a tier gap instead of the two spaces gap that currently exists between Lot and Marcus. Marcus deserves to be substantially higher than any unit that isn't getting used for the whole game on a good team, and I'd think him to be around the same level as the lower end units on said good team. To take another example, I wonder why Astohl is a tier higher than Marcus. Astohl is not particularly good at fighting (IIRC; maybe I'm wrong about this?), and any thief duties can be replaced by Chad, whereas to quote Reikken yet again, no substitutions of any kind can make up for what Marcus offers. I don't see how a team disallowed from using Marcus would have a lower turncount than a team disallowed from using Astohl.

It looks to me like the evidence that moved him out of high in the first place was extremely weak. I recall only someone mentioning that he does poorly in Ch 13 or something, which is ofcourse entirely beside the point of what he has to offer. That's like bashing Chad because his combat is bad against Ch 21 Wyverns.

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2 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:11 am

We get it. Marcus is amazing earlygame. Nobody has or ever will dispute this.

But the fact of the matter is that he's just not Seth or FE7 Marcus or Titania or you get the point. He actually slows down. A lot. Past, say, C12 he's absolutely worthl;ess and will contribute nothing.

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3 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:16 am

Obvious and stated many times already. Lot is also contributing negligibly after Miledy or whoever jumps his spot, and not contributing nearly as much as Marcus even before then. Yes, Marcus slows down and Seth does not. That's why Seth is a tier above top tier; FE6 Marcus can be two whole tiers below that and still be high tier. What's your point?

My point is that he reduces your turncount during his good period by more than someone like Lot reduces it over an extended period of time.

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4 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:25 am

sPortsman wrote:We get it. Marcus is amazing earlygame. Nobody has or ever will dispute this.

But the fact of the matter is that he's just not Seth or FE7 Marcus or Titania or you get the point. He actually slows down. A lot. Past, say, C12 he's absolutely worthl;ess and will contribute nothing.




CAT5 wrote:Obvious and stated many times already. Yes, Marcus slows down and Seth does not. That's why Seth is a tier above top tier; FE6 Marcus can be two whole tiers below that and still be high tier. What's your point?

My point is that he reduces your turncount during his good period by more than someone like Lot reduces it over an extended period of time.



I'd go a bit further than this, actually. It is said that he slows down after chapter 12, eh?

Okay.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8x, 9, 10(A/B), 11(A/B), 12, 12x

14 chapters. Top of Upper Mid.

(I've never played so tell me if he isn't allowed for any of those chapters.)

Miledy/Percival

13, 14, 14x, 15, 16, 16x, 17(A/B), 18(A/B), 19(A/B), 20(A/B), 20x(A/B), 21, 21x, 22, 23, 24

16 chapters. Bottom of Top.

So, those extra 2 chapters (in which I doubt Miledy/Percival have the same effect on turncounts) are somehow enough for a tier and a bit difference?

(I'm not saying anything about where they should go since I don't know how well they perform in their chapters, but if 16 chapters of however good Miledy/Percival are in their chapters is enough for Top Tier, then there must be some standard that Marcus needs to meet in his first 14 chapters that he is somehow not meeting. If he is not meeting this standard, then fine. But if he is meeting this standard? Why can't he be in high tier if his "good" availability is only 2 chapters fewer than the total availability of a couple of top tiers?)


edit: oops. End. So 17 chapters. But Miledy appears turn 3 in chapter 13 so it's not quite 17 chapters. And Percival needs to be recruited and shows up a fair distance from the start of the map. So it's not quite 17 for either of them. But I guess more than 16.

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5 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:39 am

Narga_Rocks wrote:
edit: oops. End. So 17 chapters. But Miledy appears turn 3 in chapter 13 so it's not quite 17 chapters. And Percival needs to be recruited and shows up a fair distance from the start of the map. So it's not quite 17 for either of them. But I guess more than 16.
Percival won't actually be recruited in 13, it'll be 15. He's too damn hard to recruit then and IIRC he only gets HM bonuses in 15.

I agree with this. Sure, this isn't FE7 Marcus, Seth, or Titania we're talking about but this argument isn't for him to have that kind of position anyway.

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6 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:52 am

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
edit: oops. End. So 17 chapters. But Miledy appears turn 3 in chapter 13 so it's not quite 17 chapters. And Percival needs to be recruited and shows up a fair distance from the start of the map. So it's not quite 17 for either of them. But I guess more than 16.
Percival won't actually be recruited in 13, it'll be 15. He's too damn hard to recruit then and IIRC he only gets HM bonuses in 15.

I agree with this. Sure, this isn't FE7 Marcus, Seth, or Titania we're talking about but this argument isn't for him to have that kind of position anyway.


Yeah, at least two sites say he doesn't get his bonuses in chapter 13.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/chars6/percival.htm&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjKJKdIiNpIbnvzVE8s56e7cxpVsQ

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/char_base.html

So, recruit in chapter 15 and he drops to, hey, what do you know? 14 chapters of availability. And that's giving him full credit for chapter 15 (though at least he's pretty close to your starting position).

I hope Marcus is quite mediocre by chapter 8 or so because otherwise this difference in their positions is inexplicable.

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7 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:33 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:
I hope Marcus is quite mediocre by chapter 8 or so because otherwise this difference in their positions is inexplicable.

Well, I did see him have doubling issues in Eric's chapter and chapter 7. Basically when cav speed becomes norm, he's got trouble.

Chapter 8 is one of his better chapters. It's practically built for mounts, he's got the most move outside of Zealot, he's got Axes, and most of the enemies are slow ass archers/soldiers/armors, and has hte most resistance to counter mages with a ranged weapon, of which a few spatter this map.

If he can nab 12 AS by the isles, he can double some of the hand axers. To be honest, the reality is he stops being GODLY by chapter whatever, but he stats actually "slowing down" by the bridge, or perhaps as far as the route split. That IS an if though, and a pretty major if. Prepromotes don't have FEDS leveling speed here after all.

I can agree with this whole-heartedly though.

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8 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:00 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
I hope Marcus is quite mediocre by chapter 8 or so because otherwise this difference in their positions is inexplicable.

Well, I did see him have doubling issues in Eric's chapter and chapter 7. Basically when cav speed becomes norm, he's got trouble.

Chapter 8 is one of his better chapters. It's practically built for mounts, he's got the most move outside of Zealot, he's got Axes, and most of the enemies are slow ass archers/soldiers/armors, and has hte most resistance to counter mages with a ranged weapon, of which a few spatter this map.

If he can nab 12 AS by the isles, he can double some of the hand axers. To be honest, the reality is he stops being GODLY by chapter whatever, but he stats actually "slowing down" by the bridge, or perhaps as far as the route split. That IS an if though, and a pretty major if. Prepromotes don't have FEDS leveling speed here after all.

I can agree with this whole-heartedly though.


How much exp does a boss kill give Marcus in this game? And since I have never played this game beyond chapter 4 or something (on the easiest mode), I don't really have a clue when he stops being among the best. I chose 8 because it would cut his epic time to half the availability that Percival has. If he is still good beyond that?

Then that's all he really needs, isn't it? Be the best for a few chapters, be among the best for a while after. If he makes it up to chapter 12 while still being pretty good, that should easily be enough for high tier if a dude with effectively the same availability can be top tier. I'm assuming that there is no possible way for Percival to be as good compared to the team from chapter 15 on as Marcus was compared to the team in his first few chapters. If Percival gets to top off that then Marcus has a lot of wiggle room in terms of how good he needs to be from chapter 6 to 12x in order to be just bottom of high.

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9 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:07 pm

Lessee, first boss is level 5 unpromoted. 5 Exp a hit, 64 for the kill...Why do I feel that's not right at all?

Upcoming bosses are 5, 7, 10, so he should get more from them. I still feel something's up with that, because 64 just for killing a boss who's technically 16 levels lower seems..Off.

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10 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:28 pm

Grandjackal wrote:Lessee, first boss is level 5 unpromoted. 5 Exp a hit, 64 for the kill...Why do I feel that's not right at all?

Upcoming bosses are 5, 7, 10, so he should get more from them. I still feel something's up with that, because 64 just for killing a boss who's technically 16 levels lower seems..Off.

Shouldn't be too hard to try. I suppose I could even do it, though I won't.

Anyway, the point is that even with the fact his growths aren't like Titania's, I'm sure the other units won't miss the boss kills so much that Marcus can't get a few of them in order to proc speed once or twice before the game is half over.

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11 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:33 pm

I found Marcus gaining levels just from so many rounds of weakening shit, and occasionally he gets kills as well. There are definitely going to be some kills Marcus can take which no one else could've gotten on the same turn, and then he gets a few kills when weakening just from stray crits.

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12 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:41 pm

As long as we can agree Marcus isn't getting boss kills because that's an effing waste [Whee let him put his massive 20 growths top to use to make him still suck past his good point], fine, I don't care enough to argue it.

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13 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:44 pm

Level 4 gives him a 58% chance of having at least 12 AS.
Level 5 gives 68%.


Level 8 gives him a 56% chance of having at least 13 AS.
Level 9 gives 63%.

So, level 5 we can basically assume 12 AS. I'd say level 4, too, given the other things we assume about averages. Even though level 4 is only 11.75 with averages.

Level 8's 56% chance is a little more iffy than level 4's chance, but is still above 50 and is still better than the probabilities some other units face after 20 levels of actually having at least their average.


How long until he gets to level 4? Level 8? Especially if you let him get a couple of boss kills.

And why can't he get one or two bks? Is there never a time where it is more efficient to just let him do it? I'm not asking for anywhere near as many as Titania should get. She should get almost all of them for the first little while. Why can't Marcus get one or two?

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14 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:48 pm

Level 4 gives him a 58% chance of having at least 12 AS.
Level 5 gives 68%.


Level 8 gives him a 56% chance of having at least 13 AS.
Level 9 gives 63%.

...And?

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15 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:51 pm

I was pointing it out because people were talking about him getting 12 AS or 13 AS. I wanted to make sure people weren't assuming it would take until levels 5 and 9. At least, not usually.

It wasn't to your post. I'd been typing it while you posted your thing.

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16 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:52 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:Level 4 gives him a 58% chance of having at least 12 AS.
Level 5 gives 68%.


Level 8 gives him a 56% chance of having at least 13 AS.
Level 9 gives 63%.

So, level 5 we can basically assume 12 AS. I'd say level 4, too, given the other things we assume about averages. Even though level 4 is only 11.75 with averages.

Level 8's 56% chance is a little more iffy than level 4's chance, but is still above 50 and is still better than the probabilities some other units face after 20 levels of actually having at least their average.


How long until he gets to level 4? Level 8? Especially if you let him get a couple of boss kills.

And why can't he get one or two bks? Is there never a time where it is more efficient to just let him do it? I'm not asking for anywhere near as many as Titania should get. She should get almost all of them for the first little while. Why can't Marcus get one or two?

Before the isles, we have essentially 9 chapters (8+gaiden). He's getting 5 exp a kill of generics I believe. Even with boss kills and his performance, leveling speed does make you estimate iffy, especially since at level 4 it would rely on a coin flip.

As for bosses, a couple are armors of whom Deick could do generally just as well, as both would need the Armorslayer. Then Wagner is better left in Rutger's hands. This leaves basically the first boss, Eric, and the bastard in chapter 5 who has the whole "killer axe with 19 Str" problem.

He could realistically have 3, as otherwise it could be taken care of by units who could get more bang out of the leveling buck from a boss kill. The problem is, you're doing this all for a coin flip. He might not make it.

Basically it's an "if he does then he's good, if he doesn't then he's dumped". It's that advantage of having borderline speed.

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17 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:12 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:Level 4 gives him a 58% chance of having at least 12 AS.
Level 5 gives 68%.


Level 8 gives him a 56% chance of having at least 13 AS.
Level 9 gives 63%.

So, level 5 we can basically assume 12 AS. I'd say level 4, too, given the other things we assume about averages. Even though level 4 is only 11.75 with averages.

Level 8's 56% chance is a little more iffy than level 4's chance, but is still above 50 and is still better than the probabilities some other units face after 20 levels of actually having at least their average.


How long until he gets to level 4? Level 8? Especially if you let him get a couple of boss kills.

And why can't he get one or two bks? Is there never a time where it is more efficient to just let him do it? I'm not asking for anywhere near as many as Titania should get. She should get almost all of them for the first little while. Why can't Marcus get one or two?

Before the isles, we have essentially 9 chapters (8+gaiden). He's getting 5 exp a kill of generics I believe. Even with boss kills and his performance, leveling speed does make you estimate iffy, especially since at level 4 it would rely on a coin flip.

As for bosses, a couple are armors of whom Deick could do generally just as well, as both would need the Armorslayer. Then Wagner is better left in Rutger's hands. This leaves basically the first boss, Eric, and the bastard in chapter 5 who has the whole "killer axe with 19 Str" problem.

He could realistically have 3, as otherwise it could be taken care of by units who could get more bang out of the leveling buck from a boss kill. The problem is, you're doing this all for a coin flip. He might not make it.

Basically it's an "if he does then he's good, if he doesn't then he's dumped". It's that advantage of having borderline speed.


Sigh.

Ike in PoR.

at least 12 str at level 15: 60%

26 str at level 20/18: 57%


Lance in this game.

>=12 speed at level 9. 64%. Marcus at level 5: 68%

>=13 speed at level 11. 62%. Marcus at level 9: 63% (not like that would happen anywhere near the same time, of course.)


It goes on and on.

also, don't forget that these are "at least". To go along with that 42% chance of 11 AS at level 4, there is also a 16% chance of him having at least 13 AS at level 4.

Level 8 sees a 24% chance of having 14 AS or more.

Every chance of a unit getting "screwed" is partially countered by how much better they'll be if they get blessed. In Marcus' case, there is a higher chance of 11 AS than >=13 AS at level 4, and higher chance of <=12 AS at level 8 than >= 14, but those points still exist. How good is he if he gets blessed? He gets blessed at level 8 more than half as often as he gets screwed. How does the being better compare with the being worse?



Also, keep in mind he doesn't have to pwn. He just has to be decent for a while in order to hit high tier. His main utility is coming from when his bases are better. Is Percival ever that much better than his compatriots? He's top, all Marcus wants is high.

Also, when Marcus can either double or not based off a 58% chance, is everyone else ORKOing? Or does Marcus' one hit cause much death compared to if he wasn't there? Well, I suppose with 12 units recruitable by the second chapter it would be nice if he could do something in his one hit that others aren't doing. But even so, he doesn't have to be fantastic to reach high tier.


It really depends on how many chapters. Ed didn't even reach mid despite his 1-P (and one turn on 1-1) where without him things go rather poorly, so it's not like 1 or 2 chapters would get the guy to high. But if he's got a few chapters where he's the best, and a few chapters where he is "rather good", I'd think that could be enough when you consider Percival's availability.



But can't we just drop this whole topic if sPortsman is okay with him in high now? Or, that's what I'm infrerring from

"As long as we can agree Marcus isn't getting boss kills because that's an effing waste [Whee let him put his massive 20 growths top to use to make him still suck past his good point], fine, I don't care enough to argue it." anyway.

If he is still against Marcus in High, then I guess someone must continue.

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18 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:39 pm

I wasn't arguing against Marcus going up, was just questioning how likely it is that Marcus to 13 AS by the isles. Seems you have answered that question though, so there's no doubt in my mind.

It makes me wonder though, exactly how likely is it for him to get supports? 15 chapters of supports, the cav duo relied mostly off eachother for their support bonuses...While it's not fire B supports from Roy, Marcus at least keeps up with them so they dont' have to tow Roy around.

I remember comparing Roy to Marcus later during the chapters of lategame, showing that Marcus's slowdown goes in tandem with Roy suffering the fact he doesn't promote till the game is nearly over. Marcus could easily show himself deserving of those supports compared to Roy. Roy's only factor in nabbing said supports instead is that he is forced every chapter, Marcus doesn't have that luxury.

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19 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:57 pm

If you kill a unit, do any units that supported with the now dead unit get to make new supports?

but Ice gives def, acc, avo, crit evade. He's giving neither mt nor crit.

Still, if you are willing to have Marcus pull a Tellah on some enemy once he's no longer useful it could work. Only trouble is I'd assume Marcus' supports are stuck at C with Roy for a while afterwards. And Roy doesn't get the supports for a while (like, he goes supportless until Marcus dies). I'd assume he appreciates the support along the way, too.


But, since Marcus is promoted I have serious doubts about him getting to level 8 early enough to care. Level 4 early enough to care could happen, but level 8? When do most people get him there? (If they even get him that high before dropping him.)

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20 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:20 pm

Marcus x Roy is quick, actually faster than Roy's Cav supports, only 15 turns to C and you probably have nothing better to do with that support slot. Not significant, but it could obviously happen. And yes, if a unit dies, support ranks from them go away.

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21 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:35 pm

CAT5 wrote:Marcus x Roy is quick, actually faster than Roy's Cav supports, only 15 turns to C and you probably have nothing better to do with that support slot. Not significant, but it could obviously happen. And yes, if a unit dies, support ranks from them go away.

Well, I figured the ranks would go away. I was just trying to confirm that it meant the unit could refill those slots.

Like, if the game had a sort of punch card then if you had an AB it would have 5 holes in it. One of the units dies and you have B, but you are still "full" so you can't get more supports.

Or it just looks at what supports you actually have and determines from there if you are eligible for more. So when that A dies and you just have a B, the game knows that it can let that unit support again.

I'm assuming it is the second option, since that is what I think they did in PoR.

Anyway, that would give +5 accuracy and +5 avo and +2 crit evade and +2 crit, right? Ice + Fire? Better than nothing, I suppose. But if Marcus takes a B with both Cavs in order to get supports before we kill him off, Roy is stuck with just those small bonuses until Marcus dies and he can have a C with each of the cavs. They only drop from AB to AC and might like C Fire more than B Ice anyway, I suppose. Only one really hurt here is Roy. Well, and how the cavs had B Ice instead of B Fire for a while.

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22 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:56 am

Yeah, I'm thinking that having to start their supports over from scratch is not cool. It'll take a good deal of chapters to work back up to B's with Roy, and I could easily see that overriding the idea of Marcus supporting them instead of Roy, especially since Roy loses out in exchange for Marcus benefiting.

C Roy, at least, is harmless though.

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23 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:03 am

If only he had better secondary supports (his only other options are Lillina and Walt?)...

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24 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:04 am

Yeah, I'm thinking that having to start their supports over from scratch is not cool. It'll take a good deal of chapters to work back up to B's with Roy, and I could easily see that overriding the idea of Marcus supporting them instead of Roy, especially since Roy loses out in exchange for Marcus benefiting.

C Roy, at least, is harmless though.

I should hope so.

We know Marcus is happy to take what he can get. We know that the cavs are probably A-ing each other because of the times it is simpler to go without Roy. Does anybody else want Roy's extra C? It's possible, and it's likely that they could be a better match than Fire x Ice, but I'm not sure how much it matters, or how much they want him.

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25 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:08 am

Narga_Rocks wrote:
Yeah, I'm thinking that having to start their supports over from scratch is not cool. It'll take a good deal of chapters to work back up to B's with Roy, and I could easily see that overriding the idea of Marcus supporting them instead of Roy, especially since Roy loses out in exchange for Marcus benefiting.

C Roy, at least, is harmless though.

I should hope so.

We know Marcus is happy to take what he can get. We know that the cavs are probably A-ing each other because of the times it is simpler to go without Roy. Does anybody else want Roy's extra C? It's possible, and it's likely that they could be a better match than Fire x Ice, but I'm not sure how much it matters, or how much they want him.

You got Sue(slow, move difference, superlol unit), Cecilia(late), Lillina(lol) and Walt(superlol to choose from.)

So no, not really. That is, unless it can be justified they take it over Marcus. I think Walt's out of the question, cause it's the same affinity on a far shittier unit.

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26 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:26 am

Grandjackal wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
Yeah, I'm thinking that having to start their supports over from scratch is not cool. It'll take a good deal of chapters to work back up to B's with Roy, and I could easily see that overriding the idea of Marcus supporting them instead of Roy, especially since Roy loses out in exchange for Marcus benefiting.

C Roy, at least, is harmless though.

I should hope so.

We know Marcus is happy to take what he can get (however sad the bonuses may be: 5 avo/accuracy, 2 crit/critevade). We know that the cavs are probably A-ing each other because of the times it is simpler to go without Roy. Does anybody else want Roy's extra C? It's possible, and it's likely that they could be a better match than Fire x Ice, but I'm not sure how much it matters, or how much they want him.

You got Sue(slow, move difference, superlol unit), Cecilia(late), Lillina(lol) and Walt(superlol to choose from.)

So no, not really. That is, unless it can be justified they take it over Marcus. I think Walt's out of the question, cause it's the same affinity on a far shittier unit.

Actually, if you are willing to KO Marcus around chapter 14 or something (and actually use Cecilia), Cecilia is perfect. Marcus can get his C, and so can she. Though she'd still only get a C. If she's in play, does she have any chance at an AB with the other units she can support?



Oh, and I guess Roy is actually happy enough to get the C with Marcus. For example, C Lance gives +0.5 def, and Marcus will fill that out to +1 def. Lance gives +2.5 crit evade, Marcus fills it out to a +5. And 3 Cs is +15 avo rather than +10 Avo. And +10 crit instead of +7.

CCC Allen, Lance, Marcus
+2 mt, +1 def, +12 accuracy, +15 avoid, +10 crit, +5 crit evade
vs CC Allen, Lance
+2 mt, +0 def, +7 accuracy, +10 avoid, +7 crit, +2 crit evade

+1 def, +5 accuracy, +5 avoid, +3 crit, +3 crit evade.
If decimals worked like in RD he'd care a little less.


It's just, when Roy x Lance hits B, the bonus is less significant since Lance alone gives the +def and the crit bonus drops from 3 to 2. Back to 005522.


But does it matter to anyone but Marcus? Does it even matter to Marcus? All he gets is the 5/5/2/2 for accuracy, avoid, crit, crit evade.

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27 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:49 am

Indeed, like I said, not really significant. +5 Hit/Avo, whoopee. It's there but no big deal.

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28 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:06 am

Well, what's Marcus' hit like? And enemy hit on him? Maybe it's not 100% useless. But 5 extra hit/avo is obviously not a big deal. Though again, Roy might appreciate the +1 def. Who knows? (Yeah, probably not)

How about crit? Does Marcus ever face like 2% before he's no longer useful? I think I might be grasping at straws here.

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29 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:35 am

I just killed the C1 Boss with Marcus. He got 16 EXP. Pretty goddamn wasteful if you ask me.

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30 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:00 am

lol

Is there even an Exp bonus for bosses in this game? IIRC the Ch 1 boss didn't have the little flashing shield icon by his map sprite.

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31 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:13 am

Mekkah

avatar
Admin
According to SF it does exist.

"Boss bonus: 40 if enemy is a boss, 0 if not."

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32 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:47 pm

sPortsman wrote:I just killed the C1 Boss with Marcus. He got 16 EXP. Pretty goddamn wasteful if you ask me.

Well duh. That's why I asked if there is one. CAT5 says that there isn't a shield on that guy, though. Anyway, if he's getting sub twenties and other units are getting 50s for a BK or something, then he should only get a BK if it is necessary for saving a turn. Otherwise it should obviously be avoided.

The point where it might be worthwhile is if he gets 40 exp and the rest of the team gets 60, or something like that. Basically, where the other units are only getting less than 50% more exp than he is. Otherwise, don't bother, obviously.

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33 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:29 pm

I probably wouldn't bother to give him boss kills at all. His growths are lower than everyone else's and so are his Exp gains, and he won't even be used the whole game, so extra stats for him become useless to you after Ch 12 or w/e (whereas they wouldn't for someone like Alan or Lance).

Marcus is still awesome for weakening bosses, though. The Ch 1 boss especially is quite a bitch without him.

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34 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:11 pm

Well yes, when bosses actually need to be weakened.

Dick ORKOs the two armor bosses with Armorslayer.

I'm just nitpicking at this stage, but still.

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35 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:22 pm

Marcus in fact slows down starting chapter 9. Archers have 9 AS and fighters have anywhere from 8 to 10 AS depending on stat variation and what they're wielding, but the gist of it is that Marcus won't be --/9 on average to double these guys.

The main problem I have with Marcus in high tier is that Zealot is only in lower mid tier. Zealot isn't available in the first 6 chapters but he stays better longer than Marcus (he has a realistic chance at doubling 10 AS fighters in chapter 11, since he starts with 13 base speed and he has 5 chapters to proc it once). And after that he'll be good until about chapter 16 (minus 14 obviously), when he'll be pretty much out of reach of doubling anything.

I was originally opposed to the idea of Marcus moving up because I had thought that Zealot's position was well established. Whatever the case, though, I firmly believe that the tier gap between the two characters should not exceed an entire tier.

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36 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:27 pm

I've always thought Zealot could stand to rise, but for some reason people have always thought that Marcus and Zealot should be so incredibly far apart. Yet, for some reason he is still tied up with his Ilian compatriots, who have to be trained to basically become him with more health and luck.

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37 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:42 pm

Those first 6 chapters are where Marcus makes the biggest impact. Look at Ch 1 again. Marcus is 2-3 times better than any of your other units in that chapter, to the point of cutting your turncount in half or even more, all by himself.

Whereas if Marcus is already mediocre by Ch 9, Zealot himself shouldn't be worth using for much longer, and obviously he's never making as big of an impact as Marcus did early on. Around Ch 8-9, Zealot is what, about equal to your better units (Alan/Lance/etc)? Too lazy to pull out a really detailed comparison, but L11 Lance w/ double C's already has similar offense to base Zealot. Whereas Marcus starts out way, way better than any other unit.

I don't necessarily disagree with Zealot moving up, but I do think that "he's better for longer" than Marcus isn't much of an argument if he's still not worth using.

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38 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:48 pm

Grandjackal wrote:I've always thought Zealot could stand to rise, but for some reason people have always thought that Marcus and Zealot should be so incredibly far apart. Yet, for some reason he is still tied up with his Ilian compatriots, who have to be trained to basically become him with more health and luck.


Well, there is the question of the impact of his stats on the team. How good is everyone else by the time Zealot shows up? It's probably best to have Zealot move up a bit, though.

If Marcus slows down at chapter 9 (but is still helpful and good enough to be deployed at this point), then the question is how long is Zealot doubling, etc? Also, how long until the team is so good that he's not special? Marcus seems quite special at the beginning, but Zealot never by as much (or is he?) when he is around. That justifies a tier gap, and I'd think depending on how long they are actually good could justify another. How long does Zealot have, anyway? Marcus has at least 8 chapters, it seems, so if Zealot only has 4 or 5 until everyone catches up to him, then isn't a tier and a half an okay margin?

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39 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:58 pm

Zealot can make pretty big impacts as well. Take C12 A Route for example where his AS is more comfortable to double the Fighters, which makes getting the Villages (and Echinda) easier to do. Sure he might not be 5 miles ahead to your other units when Marcus was in comparison to your units in C1.

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40 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:59 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:
Grandjackal wrote:I've always thought Zealot could stand to rise, but for some reason people have always thought that Marcus and Zealot should be so incredibly far apart. Yet, for some reason he is still tied up with his Ilian compatriots, who have to be trained to basically become him with more health and luck.


Well, there is the question of the impact of his stats on the team. How good is everyone else by the time Zealot shows up? It's probably best to have Zealot move up a bit, though.

If Marcus slows down at chapter 9 (but is still helpful and good enough to be deployed at this point), then the question is how long is Zealot doubling, etc? Also, how long until the team is so good that he's not special? Marcus seems quite special at the beginning, but Zealot never by as much (or is he?) when he is around. That justifies a tier gap, and I'd think depending on how long they are actually good could justify another. How long does Zealot have, anyway? Marcus has at least 8 chapters, it seems, so if Zealot only has 4 or 5 until everyone catches up to him, then isn't a tier and a half an okay margin?

Not saying Zealot would be high in upper mid, just saying.

As for Zealot, well...Depends on what LAnce's supports would be at that time, and what level he would be at. If I were to assume B B, Lance would win offense by 1 and whatever crit, winning avoid by 15, but he'd also be losing durability by 3 Def, 10 HP and 6 Res, along with Zealot stomping him in weapon rank, along with having a third weapon type.

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41 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:14 pm

How about we look at Zealot vs Oujay?

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42 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:55 pm

Base OJ-24 HP, 7 Str, 10 Skill, 9 Speed, 6 Luck, 4 Def, 0 Res, C Swords. 5 move, 8 con

Base Zealot-35 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 5 Luck, 11 Def, 7 Res-Shitstomping OJ in weapon rank. 8 move, 11 con

Hilarious. 8 levels needed to meet base Str (still losing offense, Zealot's got 2 other weapon types, and higher rank weapons to choose from), 7 to match skill, 9 to match speed (before we realize how shite OJ's con is compared to Zealot's), needs to PROMOTE just to meet his BASE defense, Res till lol20/17, 13 levels to meet Zealot's HP base.

It's hard to think we could say OJ is winning at any point before promotion.

20 OJ- 38.45 HP, 13.8 Str, 15.1 Skill, 16.65 Speed, 15.35 Luck, 7.4 Def, 2.55 Res

6 Zealot- 38.75 HP, 11.25 Str, 13 Skill, 14 Speed, 5.75 Luck, 12.5 Def, 7.75 Res

So he has 2 more Str, possibly 3. But do remember that Zealot's got stronger and higher rank weapons on the rest of the triangle, giving him more additional might, along with extra padding from the WT. OJ wins by 14 avoid, but Zealot's got all 3 weapons of the triangle, while OJ's only got 1. OJ wins by 2 speed, but also loses by 3 con. OJ wins by 14 hit, but again WT differences. OJ's only real win is that 10 luck lead on him to avoid crits. However, what are Zealot's wins? Rank is obvious, weapon choice, move, but the most noticeable is 5 Def and Res, the defense bolstered by the WTA. So similar offense, but destroying him defensively, versatily, only losing in luck.

So, in order for OJ to win, you have to work him all the way to promotion. Even then, Zealot can support someone like Tate, or his own two cavs if you bothered to bring them. Who does OJ have? The Ostians? Gufaw!

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43 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:56 pm

We talked about this match-up on IRC and everyone agrees that Zealot is easily better.

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44 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:05 pm

Well that was a dandy waste of time then.

Anyways, I think he could stand to rise at least on the Ilia route. to double the common threat, you need 14 AS. Zealot nabs that by level 6, which isn't exactly a painful thought.

He can later use a speed wing for defensive purposes, but of course that's more a sign of how problematic he can be rather than how helpful he is after a wing. He needs luck to avoid being doubled by 20 AS heroes in Bern, but otherwise, being doubled is not really a problem for him. If he can get 16 AS by chapter 21 (that is Murdock's chapter, right? Been a while), a wing can at least help him double some slower end paladins,along with doubling normal wyverns and cavs. Ilia route, that's when he slows down, and it's a sort of if a wing's not involved.

Defensively he'd be fine, but those he does double, he's doing with 12-13 Str. Not pretty, and Darkness ensures it doesn't get much better. So Ilia route, he would be dropped by Bern.

for what it's worth.

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45 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:06 pm

Actually, the problem is Zealot can't rise. Without taking Noah and Treck with him.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14515&st=1000

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46 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:14 pm

How so?

20/10 Noah-46.5 HP, 16.6 Str, 18.9 Skill, 17.6 Speed, 14.8 Luck, 15.6 Def, 6.2 Res

15 Zealot
45.5 HP, 13.5 Str, 14.8 Skill, 15.8 Speed, 7.1 Luck, 15.2 Def, 9.1 Res

If Noah can have a crest, I can give Zealot a wing.

Keep in mind that with the entire time Zealot exists, he could have a much higher axe rank, while also having just as good spear and sword rank.

All that training, they end up incredibly similar. Noah hits a bit harder (until Zealot whips out silver axes), has more hit, and luck's worth more avoid, but otherwise they're practically tied. This much effort only to have minimal wins?

I could easily see a tier difference between Zealot and his lackeys.

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47 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:50 pm

He can have a speed wing after Ch 21, i.e. after they've been buyable, you mean. You only get two before then (an extra one on Ch 20 on one of the two routes, forget which one, but it's still Ch 20). That's a pretty significant window of time where he's going wing-less; 5 chapters between when Noah gets his Seal and Zealot gets his Wing.

Ofcourse, you could give Zealot an Angelic Robe at the same time that Noah promotes.

Also don't forget supports. I have no idea who has what, but when Reikken compared this he definitely included supports, and iirc Noah has a good one with Fir or some such.

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48 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:59 pm

You have plenty of crests in this game anyway unless you're using Treck on top of all of that, so the argument holds less water anyway.

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49 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:02 am

Regardless of how many you have, Noah uses one, which can be sold for enough money to buy a stat booster if Noah doesn't use it.

Oh, and btw, cool job ignoring this topic when updating the list.

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50 Re: Marcus back to high tier on Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:21 am

The thing is actual money isn't an issue in FE6. You have money coming out the ass and will likely buy a few wings buy the time you can anyway.

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