Gonzales > Marcus

First off, I'd like to point out that Gonzales thrives off an early promotion.

Gonzales lv 12/1 (killer axe): 53 hp, 33 atk, 100 hit, 66 crit, 16 AS, 11 def, 2 res, 41 avo

The only real reason to promote him later is to increase his AS, but he should be levelling ultra fast anyway, so it isn't a big deal. Now, comparison time:

Gonzales lv 12/1 (killer axe): 53 hp, 33 atk, 100 hit, 66 crit, 16 AS, 11 def, 2 res, 41 avo

Marcus lv --/7 (killer axe): 36 hp, 22 atk, 106 hit, 37 crit, 12.5 AS, 10 def, 9 res, 36 avo

This is a pretty absurd blowout, and the gaps are going to widen even more dramatically since Marcus' growths make Jeigan look good. The only thing I like about Marcus in this match-up is his accuracy lead through full WT control, and the mount, the first of which is more than compensated by the fact that Gonzales usually 1HKOes his enemies. I suppose he'd also be giving out supports earlier, but that's not going to clear a 17 hp or 11 atk gap.

I guess everything comes down to how much value we place on Marcus' earlygame, but I don't think it's so valuable that him barely being MVP in 5-8 chapters compensates for being beaten handedly the rest of the game by Gonzo.

Marcus has been needing to move down forever anyway.

i agree with this yo

Maybe Gonzales could go further up if we consider early promo? After all +5 Skl is pretty good when you're borderline on Hit. Even if it is Echinda Gonzales (which gets more time to use his growths).

First things first, get Marcus the fuck out of high tier already.

I'll admit it, it was perhaps a hasty decision on my part. Let Marcus drop back to his proper tier.

Is Gonzales good enough to make High, then? If not, Echidna is the only combat unit in High Tier, which seems odd.

Magus wrote:Is Gonzales good enough to make High, then? If not, Echidna is the only combat unit in High Tier, which seems odd.

...Actually, that is pretty bizarre.

But otherwise yeah, Gonzales is not quite high tier material. His accuracy is just...buh.

I disagree. Even top tier units have trouble ORKOing many enemies in this game (mercenaries, wyverns, nomads, generals, etc) while Gonzales has a huge chance of wiping an enemy out in a single hit. I'd wager that even with his hitrate issues, Gonzales' chances of killing an enemy in a single hit are larger than many people's chances in 2 (given both have killer weapons), nevermind Gonzales has good enough speed to double consistently.

Vykan12 wrote:I disagree. Even top tier units have trouble ORKOing many enemies in this game (mercenaries, wyverns, nomads, generals, etc) while Gonzales has a huge chance of wiping an enemy out in a single hit. I'd wager that even with his hitrate issues, Gonzales' chances of killing an enemy in a single hit are larger than many people's chances in 2 (given both have killer weapons), nevermind Gonzales has good enough speed to double consistently.

Fine fine, but only in Ilia. Sacae, his accuracy just sucks too bad in the Sacae portion. Needing a hand axe to have enemy phase on nomads, and havin to deal with mostly swordies otherwise. Sacae's not pretty for him. Should still be upper mid, but bad performance is bad performance.

Grandjackal wrote:

Vykan12 wrote:I disagree. Even top tier units have trouble ORKOing many enemies in this game (mercenaries, wyverns, nomads, generals, etc) while Gonzales has a huge chance of wiping an enemy out in a single hit. I'd wager that even with his hitrate issues, Gonzales' chances of killing an enemy in a single hit are larger than many people's chances in 2 (given both have killer weapons), nevermind Gonzales has good enough speed to double consistently.

Fine fine, but only in Ilia. Sacae, his accuracy just sucks too bad in the Sacae portion. Needing a hand axe to have enemy phase on nomads, and havin to deal with mostly swordies otherwise. Sacae's not pretty for him. Should still be upper mid, but bad performance is bad performance.

Even so, notice his durability in Sacae. 20/1 Gonzo (assuming Level 5) has, FFS, 60 HP | 14 Def | 20 AS. Talk about never getting doubled altogether unless it's the bosses. Then, you have possible support from maybe a C Echinda, which gives about 15 Def. Add in the partial hit that she gives us and with an Iron Axe: 107 Hit, then subtract 46 Avoid and you get something like 61% displayed, about 70% true hit.

Colonel M wrote:

Grandjackal wrote:

Vykan12 wrote:I disagree. Even top tier units have trouble ORKOing many enemies in this game (mercenaries, wyverns, nomads, generals, etc) while Gonzales has a huge chance of wiping an enemy out in a single hit. I'd wager that even with his hitrate issues, Gonzales' chances of killing an enemy in a single hit are larger than many people's chances in 2 (given both have killer weapons), nevermind Gonzales has good enough speed to double consistently.

Fine fine, but only in Ilia. Sacae, his accuracy just sucks too bad in the Sacae portion. Needing a hand axe to have enemy phase on nomads, and havin to deal with mostly swordies otherwise. Sacae's not pretty for him. Should still be upper mid, but bad performance is bad performance.

Even so, notice his durability in Sacae. 20/1 Gonzo (assuming Level 5) has, FFS, 60 HP | 14 Def | 20 AS. Talk about never getting doubled altogether unless it's the bosses. Then, you have possible support from maybe a C Echinda, which gives about 15 Def. Add in the partial hit that she gives us and with an Iron Axe: 107 Hit, then subtract 46 Avoid and you get something like 61% displayed, about 70% true hit.

Yes, who doesn't have accurate melee on these things? Well apparently Gonzales (and Geese), since 61% displayed is still a bit risky. Here's the thing though. Nomads attack at range, so you need range to have enemy phase. So we now reduce it from 107 hit to 92 hit, which is 46 displayed. I'd rather not depend on that, as now the 2RNs are working against us.

Durability is great and all, but a problem arises when you can't hit anything. Geese suffers the same problem, so he really doesn't see results until Bern, which means he's going through a lot just to be OK in Bern (he's got 17 AS at 20/10, which struggles to double Paladins and sages).

So the way I see it, Gonzo should drop somewhere in upper mid for Sacae, and also Geese should drop somewhere into Low.

Neither can your Gods named Generals.

Even if he can't hit them on the Enemy Phase, he can still nuke them on the Player Phase. Or even attempt to hit them with the Hand Axe it's about 42.78. Nothing that is supposedly stellar, but it's still a little lower than 1/2 a chance of a hit.

IMO Gonzales needs to be under Lot on the Sacae list. It shouldn't be very difficult to see why, I think.

dondon151 wrote:IMO Gonzales needs to be under Lot on the Sacae list. It shouldn't be very difficult to see why, I think.

This I can agree to.

IMO Gonzales needs to be under Lot on the Sacae list. It shouldn't be very difficult to see why, I think.

Actually, it is. Lot is marginally better than Gonzales in Sacae [I say marginally because let's face it, Lot's damage sucks, plus he's getting doubled here] which is a total of three-four maps. Gonzales shitrapes Lot during the rest of the time both exist. Do explain why so much weight should be put on marginally better performance [Essentially trading damage for accuracy] in such a short timeframe.

20/4 Lot is neither doubled nor damaged by Short Bow nomads. With an Iron Bow, he borderline 2HKOs every nomad with roughly 70 disp hit (82.30 true), which is almost twice as much as Gonzo's 42.78 true. Even factoring in the crit lead (Gonzo has 30 innate vs. Lot's 15 from supports), Lot does more damage more reliably in the long run.

Also consider that Lot has an availability advantage and Gonzales doesn't truly beat Lot for a few chapters after he joins.

Why is it so important to have an enemy phase vs Sacae enemies? Aside from bow users, units rarely want to use hand axe/javelins since it murders their offense in exchange for range. What's wrong with sticking to powerful weapons on player phase?

Well for Grandjackal I don't know since Gonzales still has a very competent Player Phase. Though Lott does have bows over Gonzales, so technically Lott has an existing enemy phase compared to Gonzo.

Pretend the thread says Ilia route Gonzales.

K. Though it could just mean Lott would rise in Sacae (which I doubt... but I guess it's possible).

I think Ilia route Gonzo might have a chance to go directly under Echinda provided that his accuracy is fairly clean with promotion. Though I could see how Chad's thieving utility might put that off a bit.

Why wouldn't he be better than Echidna? She's got a weapon type on him sure, but much less speed when considering con differences (6 before Gonzales even promotes).

Echinda also has the slightly cleaner start w/Hit and WTC to consider. There is also the lack of the need for a Hero Crest to consider too.

--/10 Echidna (killer axe): 42 hp, 27 atk, 111 hit, 40 crit, 19 AS, 9 def, 8 res, 46 avo

Gonzales lv 12/1 (killer axe): 53 hp, 33 atk, 100 hit, 66 crit, 16 AS, 11 def, 2 res, 41 avo

Echidna's base level is 1 so I probably inflated her level like crazy.

Yeah, pretty much.

Guess I could see it happen.

Echidna's level does seem way too high. Gonzales gets 7 levels while Echidna gets 9? Considering that Echidna gets barely any exp for a kill?

I was trying to show that even with obscene favoritism, Echidna isn't necessarily better than Gonzales statistically. Let me try and use more realistic levels this time:

Echidna lv --/5 (killer axe): 38 hp, 25 atk, 107 hit, 40 crit, 17 AS, 9 def, 8 res, 41 avo

Gonzales lv 12/1 (killer axe): 53 hp, 33 atk, 95 hit, 66 crit, 16 AS, 11 def, 2 res, 41 avo

Echidna only wins 12 hit and 1 AS while losing everywhere else.

Echidna lv --/12 (killer axe): 43 hp, 27 atk, 113 hit, 41 crit, 19 AS, 10 def, 9 res, 50 avo

Gonzales lv 12/9 (killer axe): 60 hp, 33 atk, 100 hit, 67 crit, 20 AS, 14 def, 2 res, 51 avo

Now Gonzales wins everthing except hit, and will continue to do so for the rest of the game. I'm not sure how supports change things though, though both characters have excrutiatingly slow support lists (mostly +1 growths).

Edit: I forgot to point out that Echidna wins res as well, but Gonzales' hp win alone more than compensates for that rather easily.

Vykan12 wrote:Why is it so important to have an enemy phase vs Sacae enemies? Aside from bow users, units rarely want to use hand axe/javelins since it murders their offense in exchange for range. What's wrong with sticking to powerful weapons on player phase?

Trade-equip 2-range weapons for enemy phase. Having an enemy phase has always been a big thing, so what would your rather do, attack once with +10 hit and +8 MT or attack 4 times without those boosts to combat parameters? Especially on maps like 18S, where you can find yourself overwhelmed by nomads in no time; would you really take such a huge blow to efficiency?

The trade is only constructive if the character initiating the trade also gets their own attack in. That's pretty situational IMO.

What if that character doesn't have anyone in range, and thus nothing better to do? What if that character also gets support points in addition to the trade? What if by attacking at 1-range, that character would be exposed to 3 more enemies (and not necessarily KOing the previous one), and will be the sole primary target on enemy phase? That is certainly less constructive than not attacking on player phase and preparing for enemy phase.

Vykan12 wrote:Why is it so important to have an enemy phase vs Sacae enemies? Aside from bow users, units rarely want to use hand axe/javelins since it murders their offense in exchange for range. What's wrong with sticking to powerful weapons on player phase?

Who said we were using ranged on player phase? Anyone can have accurate melee for the most part, but it's good to have the ability to respond to the multitude of bow units in Sacae, of which accuracy plays a big part, since rarely will units actually double these pricks. Gonzales doesn't even have relatively decent melee accuracy compared to your team, how does it not go against him? We'll have to trade out for enemy phase, but Gonzales is almost pointless since his attacks most likely will miss regardless. It's hard to have offense when your acc on enemy phase is generally in hte 47 displayed range.

That's all I'm saying.

Ilia Gonzo though? Yeah, definitely above Echidna, no question.

Echidna's hit lead is marginal still [look at Vykan's stats], and he also has a massive durability win, so he's still better on Sacae.

Echidna is at the top of High, Marcus at the bottom of High and Gonzales the top of Upper Mid. Looking at all the relevant characters:

-High Tier-
Echidna
Chad
Lalum
Elphin
Marcus

-Upper Mid Tier-
Gonzales
Thany
Shin
Lot

Since the gist of this thread seems something like Gonzales > Echidna/Marcus while Lot vs Gonzo is still up for discussion, the question is where exactly does everyone go? People seem to want Marcus in Upper Mid, but does this mean Echidna goes down to Upper Mid as well, or does Gonzales go back to High?

I think that on Ilia route at least, Lot stays under Gonzales, and Echidna should stay in high tier regardless. I also think Gonzales should be in high tier, probably > Echidna (though I'm not too sure on this; Echidna can do a lot with minor resource allocation like Speedwings and killer/silver weapons).

It seems to me that a couple of people need to move from upper mid to high, though.

I say Shin for high tier on Sacae. Easily.

Since Mekkah's lazy, here's what the list would look like:


-High Tier-
Lot
Gonzales
Echidna
Shin
Chad
Lalum
Elphin
Astol

-Upper Mid Tier-
Marcus
Thany
Saul
Roy
Ellen
Fir
Klein
Lou
Cecilia

Ellen next to Saul imo, there's no reason to put Roy between them.

I didn't do that, but it's fine by me.

I've changed the Sacae one to bblader's version.

Lot/Gonzo/Shin need to move up on the Ilia tier list as well, though. Maybe not as high as they are on the Sacae tier list (for example, Echidna does as well as anyone else does against PKs/FKs, then she does better against mercs and also doesn't have as severe hit issues against enemies in abundant forest terrain, plus good 2 range matters less), but still into high tier.

And to be honest, that is a huge jump up for Lot without a reassessment of his non-route split performance.

Lot did seem to jump pretty high without much explanation. None of his stats really stand up, and I think he should be examined versus somebody like Shin or Thany first.

dondon151 wrote:Lot/Gonzo/Shin need to move up on the Ilia tier list as well, though. Maybe not as high as they are on the Sacae tier list (for example, Echidna does as well as anyone else does against PKs/FKs, then she does better against mercs and also doesn't have as severe hit issues against enemies in abundant forest terrain, plus good 2 range matters less), but still into high tier.

And to be honest, that is a huge jump up for Lot without a reassessment of his non-route split performance.

Remember that for Shin to even exist in Ilia means Tate will be in play (since I don't know how much experience Thany alone is getting if she gets an early promotion). I don't know if this means Tate up (for allowing us to use Shin) or Shin down (for forcing us to to use Tate, though she shouldn't be bad enough to actually cause him to drop) but it should be noted.

Why not promote Shin early as well? He does want swords ASAP.

IOS wrote:Lot did seem to jump pretty high without much explanation. None of his stats really stand up, and I think he should be examined versus somebody like Shin or Thany first.

Sacae right?

Just look at his durability by 20/1. Should be somewhat self-explainatory.

actually, look for Lot>Gonzales arguments.

The only Lot argument says that he does well against a few nomads and Sacae. Going straight to the top of high seems a bit high for such a small part of the game.

Especially since he still doesn't excel. He just has good durability against them and can counter with an Iron Bow, but the same goes for like, Ward and Igrene.

Mekkah wrote:Especially since he still doesn't excel. He just has good durability against them and can counter with an Iron Bow, but the same goes for like, Ward and Igrene.

Igrene can counter with the brave bow as well, which allows her to kill before the nomad can pull off the second shot.

But I suppose that's not the point of this topic at the moment, which case I guess it means that you're saying his durability is overkill? I can think of a use for such durability, in that he can rescue someone and they will undoubtably be safe. He might be among one of the weaker counters due to his pailing strength and only using iron bows, but he can do so indefinitely, or at least with little trouble in comparison to others.

I suppose though that his speed beforehand is not doubling absolutely everything, which is a bit of bad news with his Str. I could see him sticking to upper mid, perhaps dropping some.

We could move the whole block of Lot, Gonzo, Echidna, and Shin down to the bottom of high tier, but I think that the only units that currently deserve to be the top of high tier right now are Lalum/Elphin. Chad and Astohl don't deserve to be that high based solely on thief utility, and those aforementioned combat units are closer to people in upper mid than those in top.

How much defence does Lott really have over everyone at 20/1 anyways?

Miledy: 20 Def
Base Percival: 15 Def
Lot: 13.8 Def
Gonzales: 13.7 Def
Dieck: 13 Def
Alan: 12.7 Def
Rutger: 12.2 Def
Lance: 11.8 Def
Shin: 11.5 Def
20/6 Echidna: 8.7 Def

With the exception of Echidna, he has a 2 Def lead over everyone at the most. Meanwhile, he loses offence to all these characters, and has a chance at being doubled (the rest of these characters have great speed). If we're putting so much weight on durability, Treck has 14.8 Def (and more strength/the same AS).

Lot also gets +4 def from supports, which bumps his def up to 17.8. Dieck also gets +4 def from supports; no one else on the list does.