Eliwood is not high tier material.

Currently he's above Lucius and Guy and a tier up on Pent. I don't agree with this.

For starters, while Lucius sucks defensively, he does at least have 2 range chip to somewhat negate that and MUCH better offense than Eliwood. 8 Lucius has 12 AS which Eliwood can't hit until 13 to give you an idea of how massive his win is. His wtf 60 magic growth and the def/res gap means he also hits much harder than Eliwood, and then Lucius gets an auto C staves on promotion [And Raven support to somewhat fix his awful durability] and then his wins on chapters like 23 and 23x are just so blatant I don't see a reason to state them.

Guy, meh, I just finished a debate on that so I don't want to go diving into that subject again just yet.

But what I really question is him a tier up on Pent. If Eliwood doesn't get the seal Pent is obviously shitstomping him. If he does, durability wise they're similar, only Pent has 1-2 range that's actually effective, and Louise support [she's forced on this chapter anyway], which is enough to cancel out Eliwood's own supports, and A Hector is starting to become a problem to maintain anyway. Growth wise there isn't that big a gap between them and Pent has staves to counteract his high joining level so the difference in stats doesn't really change until Eliwood gets A Hector. I know availability is on Eliwood's side, but he's been so terrible for most of it [He's bad earlygame, slightly less bad but still bad midgame, and only really good late-endgame. Even Lyn had somewhat of a strong point earlygame] that I don't really see how it does much good for him.

You do have to note that after Eliwood promotes, he does become pretty h4x, and he's helping out earlygame, unlike someone like Lucius.

Eliwood's worst period is his forced period, and whether he should be penalized for that is obviously in the question.

But I think it's pretty agreeable that Eliwood, without a B support, doesn't reach "invincibility" until A Hector and perhaps not even until promotion.

Of course, it's also possible Pent and Lucius are too low.

You do have to note that after Eliwood promotes, he does become pretty h4x,

He is not h4x. He just goes from getting shitstomped by the high tiers to comparing to the high tiers. Sure, he has a massive AS win on 20/4 Lowen, but 20/4 Lown doubles consistently later anyway.

Eliwood's worst period is his forced period, and whether he should be penalized for that is obviously in the question.

I don't think that's true. His offense is often bothersome throughout midgame [at lvl 10 he's still kind of sucking with his 9str/11 AS combo] By late midgame I guess it's okay, but still, earlygame is not his only difficulty.

bblader1 wrote:
He just goes from getting shitstomped by the high tiers

Huh? Someone like Erk has a small offensive advantage over Eliwood early on because of the def-res gap while Eliwood has effective damage on Cavs and Armors, and is basically invincible against anything with an axe. Eliwood's also beating Erk in durability, and while 2-range lessens the win, it does not get rid of it entirely.

Erk is above Eliwood. I have no idea where you got this "he's getting shitstomped" stuff.

I have no idea where you got this "he's getting shitstomped" stuff.

Have you looked at the characters above Erk?

I don't know if you know this, but characters above Erk qualify as High tiers as well, and he's right, they do curbstomp Eliwood.

FE3_Player wrote:Have you looked at the characters above Erk?

I don't know if you know this, but characters above Erk qualify as High tiers as well, and he's right, they do curbstomp Eliwood.

He's talking about dropping Eliwood. Characters above him are already above him and should have no bearing on Eliwood possibly dropping. I only brought up Erk because he's directly above Eliwood, and he's not "shitstomping" him.

And I brought up the characters above Erk because you asked where he got the idea of where high tiers are curbstomping him, and I answered with: High tiers.

Huh? Someone like Erk has a small offensive advantage over Eliwood early on because of the def-res gap

what

In what insane country does doubling+Hitting res only qualify as a SMALL offensive advantage of single hitting def with weak str? Erk blows Eliwood's ass out of the water when he joins, it's why Erk was moved above him.

Eliwood has effective damage on Cavs and Armors

It's pretty irrelevant when Erk rapes these enemies too and doesn't even take a counter, you know?

and is basically invincible against anything with an axe.

Oh wow, look at all the earlygame axemen! Oh wait, they're all almost gone by the time Erk exists except in C15 [The ones in C16 are off bugging Lyn] By the time they reappear in C19 Erk is ORKOing their asses off the map before they can touch him anyway so I don't see how a durability win means much.

and while 2-range lessens the win, it does not get rid of it entirely.

It does, because earlygame Erk is not that far off from Eliwood concretely. It stays that way until Eliwood can build his Hector support. Erk also has more opportunities to attack than Eliwood due to 2 range, which means he gets more EXP.

bblader1 wrote:doubling

Same base speed.
10% higher growth.
Basically the same availability beforehand (Lyn Mode chapters with low enemy density vs. Hector Mode chapters with high enemy density).

I call bullshit.

ChaosNinji wrote:Basically the same availability beforehand (Lyn Mode chapters with low enemy density vs. Hector Mode chapters with high enemy density).

I call bullshit.

You wouldn't be spouting this bullshit if you actually play the game and realize that a general statement like "Hector Mode chapters with high enemy density" doesn't hold water.

5/0 Eliwood has 8.6 AS to 8/0 Erk's 10.5 AS. Enough said. And good luck getting Eliwood to 5/0 by chapter 14. He gets less than a level in chapter 12, a level in chapter 13, and a level and a half in 13x.

dondon151 wrote:

ChaosNinji wrote:Basically the same availability beforehand (Lyn Mode chapters with low enemy density vs. Hector Mode chapters with high enemy density).

I call bullshit.

You wouldn't be spouting this bullshit if you actually play the game and realize that a general statement like "Hector Mode chapters with high enemy density" doesn't hold water.

5/0 Eliwood has 8.6 AS to 8/0 Erk's 10.5 AS. Enough said. And good luck getting Eliwood to 5/0 by chapter 14. He gets less than a level in chapter 12, a level in chapter 13, and a level and a half in 13x.

It's reasonable for Erk to gain seven levels in 6 chapters that contain 15 enemies at very most, where he has 6 other units that are vying for those kills at join time, and he's not even ORKOing, iirc, but it's unfathomable for Eliwood to gain 4 levels in 3 chapters where enemy density is quite a bit higher?

For instance, Chapter 13 has 24 enemies, not including the boss, while a chapter like Chapter 10, which is one of the larger Lyn Mode chapters, if not the largest has 13 enemies, once again, excluding the boss?

It's sandbagging Eliwood, I say.



I really should note that I'm not defending Eliwood, per se, but I also don't like false claims being tossed around (which is probably pretty hypocritical of me, since I mess up all the time, but whatever).

This debate has never really ended, but it also hasn't been posted in for almost three weeks. If either Ninji or B2BD wants to continue the debate then say so. However, I would like to see a few more statistical comparisons from both parties before I make any changes.

I think that this whole levels business should get straightened before any comparison can be made.

Erk joins in Chapter 5 of Lyn mode.

Chapter 5: There are 7 enemies in this chapter. However, Erk can only realistically get to 3, and the 3rd could very well be killed by Sain, based on his position, since it is already weakened.

Chapter 6: Again, 7 enemies. Erk can't take both paths, so, at most, he'll be killing maybe 1-2 enemies.

Chapter 7: 9 enemies. A majority of the enemies are mages/shamans though, which Erk is dealing less damage than he normally would against, and one of the enemies is literally right next to Lucius, so he might as well bomb him with Nils. Being generous and saying 3 here.

Chapter 7x: 15 enemies, reinforcements included. Full of chokepoints, so Erk can probably grab a few kills. However, why would we go to this? The only thing going to this chapter gives us is a Hammer, which is buy-able in Chapter 10, the only time where it would really matter, anyway. I rather doubt we would waste our time.

Chapter 8: 14 enemies, not including reinforcements, because I didn't want to wait. This would be good for Erk since the cavs and Soldiers rush you, but there's also that big Ballista in the middle of the map that limits where he can go.

Chapter 9: FoW doesn't work in his favor, and I didn't want to bother getting enemy numbers. I doubt he'll be doing more than trying to snipe Bandits on mountains, though.

Chapter 10: It has 13, like I said. Erk can't do much here.


And it's not like Erk's offense and defense are crazy or anything. Archers stop having 3 AS in Erk's joining chapter, and they were really the only things he could double with his 7 AS. Once he gets a few levels, he can go back to doubling Archers and Soldiers, but everyone can kill them and there are still a lot less enemies than in Hector mode. The def-res gap doesn't make up for this.

I'll finish up with Eliwood's chapters tomorrow.

Uh, you're assumed to go to gaiden chapters unless it's 19xx.

If we sandbag Erk out of 7x, I'm going to sandbag Eliwood out of 13x.

Now since his C12 performance is almost non existant, he has all of one and a half maps to catch up to Erk.

Nobody's being sandbagged out of any gaidens besides maybe 19xx.

I know that. I'm expanding on why screwing Erk out of 7x is stupid.

Just saying that it's a rather useless gaiden to waste our time on. If I was saying that we are never going to 7x, then I wouldn't have mentioned the enemies in it. >_>;

Anyway, there are 13 enemies in Chapter 12, 29 enemies in Chapter 13, and 35 enemies in Chapter 14, at least according to Vykan's enemy stats. That's 77 enemies. Lyn Mode has 65 enemies from Erk's joining, not counting Chapter 9 because I'm lazy, but there are quite a few reinforcements there, so we'll call it even.

The difference? When Erk joins, we already have 6 combat units, 5 of which are upper mid or higher, fighting against 7 enemies per chapter at the lowest and 15 at the very highest, and then Matthew and Lucius join, who both want their fair share of kills. Let's not forget that ORKOs are a lot more common in Lyn Mode, and Erk isn't ORKOing, so it's harder for him to pick off weakened enemies, and the man isn't invincible; he's 2RKO'd by mostly everything that doesn't have a tome.

Eliwood? He's fighting with 9 other guys for kills, two of which are Bartre and Rebecca, and then Guy for 13x, but for 13 enemies at the very lowest, which is how much one of the lengthier Lyn Mode chapters has, and 35 at the most. Nobody but Marcus is really one-rounding at this point, meaning that, while Eliwood is mostly 3ORKOing, it isn't as severe as you think. Eliwood's also nearly invincible on the fort in Chapter 12, especially against those oh-so-common bandits, and Chapter 12 is probably his worst chapter in the earlygame.

So, yeah, Erk getting 7 levels in these chapters and Eliwood getting 4, and then saying that Eliwood getting 4 was already generous is complete bullshit.

Anyway, there are 13 enemies in Chapter 12

You may as well not even mention 12 because Eliwood is killing 1-2 enemies there.

As I've said SEVERAL times already, and you still ignore it.

sPortsman wrote:

Anyway, there are 13 enemies in Chapter 12

You may as well not even mention 12 because Eliwood is killing 1-2 enemies there.

As I've said SEVERAL times already, and you still ignore it.

The man is nearly invincible against anything with an axe when he's on the fort that's nearby. He's only killing 1-2 things, but I can see him getting a level off of that + hit exp.

So, yeah, it's not totally worthless.

The man is nearly invincible against anything with an axe when he's on the fort that's nearby.

What difference does this make when he is squared off against no more than two enemies, tops? Furthermore, these are kills that we can give to Lowen or Rebecca just as easily. There's a limited amount of kills Eliwood's team can take on this chapter, and there's no reason he gets a monopoly on them.

sPortsman wrote:
What difference does this make when he is squared off against no more than two enemies, tops?

2 enemies top? I doubt this. Also, possibility of the boss kill.

Furthermore, these are kills that we can give to Lowen or Rebecca just as easily. There's a limited amount of kills Eliwood's team can take on this chapter, and there's no reason he gets a monopoly on them.

When did I ever say he has a monopoly? I specifically said he could get one level. One level =/= killing 13 enemies.

If its so hard to get Eliwood kills in Chapter 12, then how did Dondon get him to Level 2.89 in his HHM ranked playthrough? Granted Eliwood was given the boss kill, but he would still be around Level 2 by the end of the chapter without it.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11833

Wait, what the hell? Why is dondon the one saying that Eliwood might not reach 5/0 by Chapter 14, yet in his HHM ranked playthrough where he spread exp as thinly as possible, he has him at 6/0 by the end of 13x?

I think 5/0 is a reasonable starting level for Eliwood, I'd like to see some statistical comparisons made from there, this topic seems to be lacking them.

I do believe dondon used 5/0 as Eliwood's starting level when Erk joins.

5/0 Eliwood has 8.6 AS to 8/0 Erk's 10.5 AS. Enough said.

And followed it up with:
And good luck getting Eliwood to 5/0 by chapter 14.

Oh yeah, missed that. Though it doesn't really change his point in the former statement, where Eliwood was 5/0 anyways.

CAT5 wrote:Oh yeah, missed that. Though it doesn't really change his point in the former statement, where Eliwood was 5/0 anyways.

Yeah, I think his point was Eliwood was losing by 2 AS even at a level dondon thinks is unreasonable. Extension: at lower levels for Eliwood it is even worse. Though, his own playthrough suggests that the extension might not be relevant.

IOS wrote:If its so hard to get Eliwood kills in Chapter 12, then how did Dondon get him to Level 2.89 in his HHM ranked playthrough? Granted Eliwood was given the boss kill, but he would still be around Level 2 by the end of the chapter without it.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11833

Wait, what the hell? Why is dondon the one saying that Eliwood might not reach 5/0 by Chapter 14, yet in his HHM ranked playthrough where he spread exp as thinly as possible, he has him at 6/0 by the end of 13x?

I think 5/0 is a reasonable starting level for Eliwood, I'd like to see some statistical comparisons made from there, this topic seems to be lacking them.

Obviously ranked HHM doesn't represent the HHM that we're discussing for this tier list.

In chapter 12 I had Marcus get the Secret Book, which meant that he got no combat EXP whatsoever. I also fed kills to Eliwood, evident by the fact that Dorcas and Bartre didn't get even half a level and everyone else starting off on the south end of the map got not a level.

In chapter 13 I didn't use Marcus much (he got 8 EXP) and I put Eliwood in a number of dangerous situations, in addition to favoring him over Dorcas and Bartre.

And Eliwood ended up in chapter 14 with just 10 EXP over 6/0. I'm pretty sure that 11 EXP could have been lost at any point in a less constrained playthrough.

Just so this debate can at least have SOME starting point, here's how they would both do in Chapter 14:

5/0 Eliwood (C Hector): 32.0 avo, 21.0 hp, 7.0 def, 2.0 res, 14.0 critavo
Iron Sword: 12.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 108.3 hit, 5.3 crit
Rapier (effective): 21.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 113.3 hit, 15.3 crit

7/0 Erk: 23.0 avo, 21.0 hp, 3.0 def, 6.0 res, 5.0 critavo
Thunder: 15.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 98.3 hit, 8.8 crit

I wouldn't call this a blowout. Sure Erk's probably better thanks to 1~2 range and better attack against non-cavs/armors. I don't know if I'd call it an entire tier gap though, unless Erk improves dramatically as he levels up.

Actuslly I think Erk is doing better vs AKs. IIRC my Eliwood was doing something like double 6-8s on AKs w/Rapier.

Going by enemy stats, he should be doing 9-10 (x2) damage, while Erk does 14 (x2). I guess Erk does have the advantage vs. Armors then.