Lou to Lower Mid?

I am just gonna get shot for this, I know it.

First off, exactly how worthwile is his performance? From my sight, his speed is questionable. It certainly is not doubling much at his start. There are very few armors from the start of his existence to the isles, so let's start with his earlygame. Chapter 3, he's not doing much, if anything. He's simply nowhere near the action, and it's troublesome to get him anywhere else. His best opportunity is the boss. He has 3 speed to Lou's base 6. Lou has 9 mt, throne gives 5 Res, so he's only doing 4 damage. The boss has 30 HP, so he recovers 3 a turn. Basically, Lou has to go melee if he wants to do anything close to noticeable damage, and even then it's only a technical 5 damage. Boss has 18 Mt with javelin, 22 with steel. Javelin is 1 damage off killing Lou outright with his 16 HP and 3 Def, so if the boss procs an STR, dead Lou with no escape. Steel obviously DOES one shot Lou, so he can't afford to go melee. So, no chapter 3 action for him aside from perhaps chipping javy cavs through the wall.

Chapter 4 is a bit of a mess. It has nomads with 10 AS, which doubles Lou. Their 15 mt ORKOs Lou. Cavs pack about 1 Res, have around 26 HP. 4RKO. I do not think this is worthy chip damage. Not in the sense that it helps anyone avoid a counter anyways. Pirates are the same deal, just they have around 1 less HP, which doesn't change a damn thing. Being 2RKOd by everything with a chance of nomads coming in to ORKO him means I have to give the poor bastard extra protection. The only one performing worse right now is Walt. Don't be surprised I'm not wishing to reward him any medals. He could gain a level, but I still find it questionable. The only way he is gonna get kills is if you specifically weaken things down for him to kill. Sure he's forced, but this style of play only slows me down either way. Eric has 11-10 AS depending on his weapon, which potentially doubles Lou for the kill. Not that his 9 damage is doing much to Eric's 4 Res and 34 HP.

Chapter 5, he's gained a level. Fighters are packing 19 mt with handies, which OHKOs Lou. Nomads and mercs double for an ORKO. If the mage with his 15 mt procs a speed, he ORKOs Lou as well. Least magically durable enemy on the map are fighters with 1 Res and 33 HP, that being a 5RKO. Again, not significant chip. How the hell is he supposed to see any action? Literally everything on the map save MAYBE one guy ORKOs or OHKOs Lou. I might as well not give him a level as this is god awful performance bordering Walt. Let's give him another level for chapter 6.

Well, there are now fail soldiers and armors around, so he does well here. Armors and soldiers with steel are still capable of OHKOing Lou, but no biggie I suppose. However, there is now slots. Would you honestly say he performs better than

Marcus
Allen
Lance
Deick
Rutger
Ward
Lot
Thany
Clarine
Ellen

At this point? Then factor in Roy is forced and that Chad's too important here, there's no room for Lou. I suppose Ward's questionable, but not enough to deter Ward's greatness before. 4 chapters, better performance than Lou by a longshot, it's possible he could have gained 5 levels in that time which lets him perform well enough to double armors with a hammer, meaning he has an awesome chance of just making them vanish.

Even then, all he's really doing is hurting armors. Anyone can take out a soldier no problem, he's no way in hell fighting the boss Wagner with his 12 AS to Lou's 7. So now, he's posing a problem of mediocre performance.

Chapter 7, I'll give him 2 levels, now he's level 5. First thing I notice is that dracoknights can OHKO him with a javelin, meaning I would question him actually being able to chip the dracos. They have 33 HP and 2 Res to Lou's 10 mt, a 5RKO. Walt at base with iron has 22 Mt to the draco's 13 Def, 9 damage, a 4RKO. Wow. I could bring in base Walt and he'd do better than a trained Lou. Hell, I could give him Steel to do 31 mt, of which is a 18 damage, 2RKO. This includes the likes of Dorothy and Sue performing better on wyverns. Lou does better on armors...All 4 of them. They're spread out across the map, so it's not like Lou can get to them all either. Everything else has the problem of 2RKOing him, so I can't exactly afford him enemy phase without healing him every single turn for just 1 enemy. So I have to protect him in this hectic rush map to rescue the cavs then get the hell to the throne. Even more embaressing is that Lou STILL is no boss slayer. His 8 AS does not double Devias's 6 AS. 10 mt to Devias's 1+5 Res is 4 damage to Devias's 39 HP. Devias has a 1-2 range weapon with 1-2 range, an instant KO.

So there's now chapter 8. I'll be nice and give Lou yet another level. First thing you notice is that the map is huge. Your cavs can barrel through this, and they have better people to rescue-transport, because when those people are dropped they aren't ridiculously vulnerable. It;s at this time, enemies are starting to graduate to steel. 12 Str soldiers OHKO him, as do Knights. He doubles both, but the question is if he's ever seeing action this map. Takes 7 uninterrupted turns just to get him to Barth's starting position from the best starting position you can give him, something a cav can use better. At best, he might see maybe 2 hits, perhaps a kill. He simply can't really perform that well on the basis he's not worth transporting due to durability issues, and that his move is bad enough that he will see very little action what with the cavs wiping everything off the map. He might not get a level.

So now, Lou and Lillina meet. Let's compare a level 7 Lou to base Lilli.

7 Lou- 19 HP, 6 Mag, 8 Skill, 9 Speed, 7 Luck, 3 Def, 6 Res. 23 hit, 25 avoid, 4 crit

Lillina- 16 HP, 5 Mag, 5 Skill, 4 Speed, 4 Luck, 2 Def, 7 Res. 14 hit, 12 avoid, 2 crit.

Average enemy level is 4, Lillina is getting 11 exp a hit, 40 a kill. Lou gets 9 exp a hit, 20 a kill. She's practically leveling at twice the speed he is. Only advantage he has is that he can double fighters wielding steel who don't proc a speed. Lillina however could get an instant C with Roy. Lou could have supports with Ellen and Chad, but these two are problematic for 2 reasons. 1. He doesn't really help them perform astoundingly better. 2. These two supports do not last forever, and Chad has no reason to be on maps that don't require thieves. That's at best a C with the 30+1 speed by the time they arrive in 8x. Another factor is that Roy is always forced, and he is assumed a BB with his cavs, free a C. If Lillina's in play, she will have that C. That C is +1 ATK, 2 avoid, 5 hit, 5 crit. Lou's C nets +1 ATK, 2 avoid, 5 hit and crit. Essentially, the same bonuses, but Lillina's is more assured.

Both still basically require kills to be spoonfed into them. Essentially there are 8 "battles" on this map, as in 8 groups of which they get 1 kill. Lillina could get 3 levels to Lou's 1.6. Let's compare now.

level 8 Lou
19 HP, 6+1 Mag, 8 Skill, 9 Speed, 7 Luck, 4 Def, 7 Res. 23+5 hit, 25+2 avoid, 4+5 crit

level 4 Lillina
17 HP, 7+1 Mag, 5 Skill, 5 Speed, 5 Luck, 2 Def, 8 Res. 15+5 hit, 15+2 avoid, 2+5 crit.

He's durably better, but not so much as to offset any problems he has. He's still ORKOd by mercs, OHKOd by steelers. Either way, you want both to avoid any combat you can, and Lillina's chip is superior. All minor wins, but I recall comparing to Lillina to be a bad thing.

Let's fastforward to chapter 14. 6 chapters from 9-14. Let's give Lou 8 levels.

level 16 Lou
23 HP, 10+3 Mag, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 10 Luck, 5 Def, 9 Res. 34+15 hit, 36+9 avoid, 6+15 crit.

Cecilia
30 HP, 11 Mag, 7 Skill, 10 Speed, 10 Luck, 7 Def, 13 Res. 24 hit, 30 avoid, 3 crit.

His support with Ellen is becoming questionable. Clarine and Saul all have the first ring priority over her, and the second ring has competition as well. Level 15/1 Ray has better stats all around compared to a 20/1 Ellen with a superior weapon type. There's Lou himself. Ellen might be stuck with healing for even longer, of which we start to realize Lou is lugging around a unit that has to be babysat as much as he does that is doing nothing but healing. With Cecilia's arrival, a promotion of a former healer, Cecilia's arrival and the coming promotion of a mage type, Ellen's presence is starting to become redundant. However, couple problems.

Any wyvern can OHKO him with steel if they proc a strength, of which Cecilia can avoid that problem. Wyvern lords with silver have 35 mt, which slays Lou, but Cecilia can survive just fine. Brigands with steel have 29 mt, again a OHKO on Lou. Lou does not have Staff use, of which Cecilia can use to Libro people, or Rest Ray or Sophia if they were put to sleep by the bishop.

She also has a mobility lead, less questionable supports (Percy is 30+2, 15, 30, 40), staffs, and requires no effort or ring. This also comes with rescue transport, her 19 rescue can rescue Doug to transport him, which is another 30+2, and gets a tank to the front lines. Lou after promotion has 4 rescue, which can "save" Ray (Nosferatu not good enough?), Sophia (lol), Niime (again, Nosferatu), and Fa (who is far and away in no real need of rescue). Her rescue comes with canto as well. Even after promotion at max level, he has 1 less HP than base Cecilia. He has better offense, but nowhere near the utility, cheapness, or team adaptability. Her class also allows her to level up faster like she has Elite. Average level of chapter 15 is 17. 17/1 Lou gets 9 exp a hit, 21 a kill. Cecilia gains 9 a hit, 27 a kill. Lou needs 5 kills, Cecilia needs 4. Promoted enemies will yield plenty more to Cecilia. The level 5 sniper gives 12 exp a hit, 44 a kill to Lou, 12 exp a hit and 65 a kill for Cecilia.

So he has an offense lead. Woopie. Does it make up for how troublesome it is to train him up, the cost of a ring, and still isn't as versatile as Cecilia until later on, and Cecilia can make up for being slightly worse with a better leveling speed?

Let's fastforward to chapter 21. Lou has A Ellen who can be smoked by a wyvern lord's 40 mt even at 20/20 with +2 Def. Level 20/10

20/10 Lou
34 HP, 19+3 Mag, 21 Skill, 21 Speed, 14 Luck, 9 Def, 15 Res. 56+15 hit, 56+9 avoid, 10+15 crit.

level 15 Cecilia A Doug, B Percival
38 HP, 15+2 Mag, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 13 Luck, 9+4 Def, 16+4 Res. 37+6 hit, 39+25 avoid, 6+15 crit

No offense lead, but she IS supplying two others with supports. Let's check out 20/15 Ellen

33 HP, 20+3 Mag, 18 Skill, 16 Speed, 30 Luck, 3 Def, 28 Res. 66+15 hit, 62+9 avoid, 9+15 crit.

Doubles nothing, no slayer effectiveness with aircalibur, loses defense badly. Only really loses avoid by 7, crit by 3. Cecilia I can say is better than Ellen. Cecilia practically seems like a hybrid of both. Fastest enemy on hte map is wyvern lords, which can't double Cecilia. This means Cecilia has better durability, especially since she has identical avoid to Lou. However, let's look at Cecilia's team mates.

10 Douglas A Cecilia B Percival
47 HP, 19+1 Str, 13 Skill, 8 Speed, 11 Luck, 20+4 Def, 5+4 Res. 37+6 hit, 27+25 avoid, 6+18 crit. WT control allows him basically an extra+10.

Access to Brave axe and Lance allows him access to extra weapons, then knight slayers, killers, etc. No doubling, but most wyverns are only doing 6 damage with their steel. This also helps later in 22 with the heroes, of which only do 9x2-5x4 damage to him. On top of that, the WTA allows him basically to have similar avoid to the others so far. But what of Percy?

10 Percival B Cecilia B Douglas
54 HP, 21+1 Str, 17 Skill, 21 Speed, 15 Luck, 16+2 Def, 13+2 Res. 48+15 hit, 57+25 avoid, 8+15 crit.

Total triangle control, basically having access to any physical weapon outsie of bows. Wyvern lords 3RKO him of which he can kill back with a wyrmslayer at 40 displayed. This helps him be able to whipe out hordes just like Lou with far greater durability. Then there are paladins he can use a horseslaying weapon on, armorslaying the boss Murdock, he can easier destroy mages due to targeting their weaker stat.

Cecilia greatly improves the performance of two characters, while Ellen's simply becomes slightly better (and unlike Cecilia's team is insta-blicked by wyvern lords). She has not the offense Lou has, but her team makes up for that. She helps Percy get to god mode, and helps Doug move around to put his defensive abilities to good use along with his excellent weapon selection. She outdoes him in mount utility, staff choice, and helping 2 people perform far better, one of which absolutely smokes Lou at what we trained him for and THEN some. All three have one thing in common, they are all harder to kill than Lou, Cecilia included. So 3 durable units of which has a highly versatile healer mage if subpar offensively, a general with the best weapon selection you could ask for in his existence that basically has the hardest time dying, and killface paladin that are all free of needing extreme effort or resources outside of eachother>two far less durable units that need effort and resources that have split uses all for the sake of one person being hax towards 1 enemy type.

Might as well compare him to Bartre.

10 Lou B Ellen
20 HP, 7+2 mag, 9 Skill, 10 Speed, 8 Luck, 4 Def, 7 Res. 26+10 hit, 28+6 avoid, 5+10 crit. 4 con

Bartre
48 HP, 22 Str, 11 Skill, 10 Speed, 14 Luck, 10 Def, 3 Res. 36 hit, 34 avoid, 5 crit. 14 con, will have a support with Fir in 7 turns with his 40+3 speed support. Has D Bows, A Axes.

Do I seriously need to say more? Lou is not outperforming that any time soon.

he only way he is gonna get kills is if you specifically weaken things down for him to kill. Sure he's forced, but this style of play only slows me down either way.

See, this is what annoys me about the Thany shit. Thany needs kills spoonfed into her dondon[no capital, satisfied?] conceded to this and justified it with "well if she needs a small amount of effort to be better, why not take it"? And do we give Lugh the same treatment? Nope! It's like this rule is applied and de-applied whenever convenient.

Well, there are now fail soldiers and armors around, so he does well here. Armors and soldiers with steel are still capable of OHKOing Lou, but no biggie I suppose. However, there is now slots. Would you honestly say he performs better than

Marcus
Allen
Lance
Deick
Rutger
Ward
Lot
Thany
Clarine
Ellen

Who cares?

No really, who cares? You're using Lugh. You're going to find a way to shoehorn him into as many chapters as possible, just like you do with Dick if you are using him, OJ if you are using him, and Wendy, if you are using her. This is just a blatant sandbag.

Even then, all he's really doing is hurting armors. Anyone can take out a soldier no problem, he's no way in hell fighting the boss Wagner with his 12 AS to Lou's 7. So now, he's posing a problem of mediocre performance.

that's cool and everything

But you totally neglected to mention, intentionally or not, that there are a lot of mages on this map, and your options for tanking+countering them are limited outside of Marcus, Thany, and of course, Lugh.

Lou could have supports with Ellen and Chad, but these two are problematic for 2 reasons. 1. He doesn't really help them perform astoundingly better.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? You're seriously still using arguments like this? Who gives a fuck, honestly? Would you care to recite me a list of Ellen's better support options? Don't say Miredy, LughxMiredy is considered impratical because of how rarely they're together, it should be the same for Ellen. Don't say Zeiss or I'll stab you. Don't even TRY Saul, their affinities go awful together and it's slower than Lugh. Chad? Well you just said it, Chad's a thief.

But what the hell, I'll bust out the kicker. Yes, Chad is a thief and is shaky, but I don't see anybody else wanting to B Lugh. No reason Lugh can't have Chad bonuses when it's convenient [i.e a map with lots of treasure] and would you look at that? C8 is a map with LOTS of treasure.

Btw, 30 turns to C? He has no excuse not to get that in four chapters.

His support with Ellen is becoming questionable. Clarine and Saul all have the first ring priority over her, and the second ring has competition as well.

This is just stupid. You can't just disqualify a support partner on the basis of "they're outclassed and will never be played", that's just the same as assuming characters below Lower Mid are never played. Don't you complain about the high tiers in FE10 being the only ones played? Ellen's near the middle of upper mid, there's more than a reasonable chance she's being played.

Speaking of, here's something else you overlooked [I'm starting to wonder if you left out most of this shit on purpose]: Lugh will easily be able to use Aircalibur in the desert by now so Cecilia's weapon rank is of no advantage. Then, Cecilia only has 2 mov in the desert, Lugh has his full five. Wonder who's winning in that chapter?


So I'm not liking a lot of these leverls you have Lugh at. If we're babying Thany, we're babying Lugh. And Lugh is much easier to baby than Thany anyway [Res hit at 2 range>>>2 pathetic hits at 1 range with weak concrete durability] so Lugh closer to what Thany would be around that time, plz. I'm getting the idea he's getting less favoritism than Thany from the first statement I quoted.

bblader1 wrote:

See, this is what annoys me about the Thany shit. Thany needs kills spoonfed into her dondon[no capital, satisfied?] conceded to this and justified it with "well if she needs a small amount of effort to be better, why not take it"? And do we give Lugh the same treatment? Nope! It's like this rule is applied and de-applied whenever convenient.

The point you're missing is that Thany stops caring the moment she promotes, which is basically 8x. With Lou, I'm still doing it as far as the desert.

Who cares?

No really, who cares? You're using Lugh. You're going to find a way to shoehorn him into as many chapters as possible, just like you do with Dick if you are using him, OJ if you are using him, and Wendy, if you are using her. This is just a blatant sandbag.

It's not like he's being majorly punished either way, I'd take him over any of the other hurrrrs any day.

that's cool and everything

But you totally neglected to mention, intentionally or not, that there are a lot of mages on this map, and your options for tanking+countering them are limited outside of Marcus, Thany, and of course, Lugh.

All 3 of them?

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? You're seriously still using arguments like this? Who gives a fuck, honestly? Would you care to recite me a list of Ellen's better support options? Don't say Miredy, LughxMiredy is considered impratical because of how rarely they're together, it should be the same for Ellen. Don't say Zeiss or I'll stab you. Don't even TRY Saul, their affinities go awful together and it's slower than Lugh. Chad? Well you just said it, Chad's a thief.

Btw, 30 turns to C? He has no excuse not to get that in four chapters.

This is implying I'm keeping him around Ellen a lot, who is usually a couple steps away from the action, which limits what Lou does. Not like we wouldn't with Lou anyways, thanks to how easily killed he is.

Her other options don't matter because it's Lou's deal here. Lou doesn't do dick for her, and she barely does anything for him. Yay, 1 ATK, I'm now 4RKOing! *rolls eyes* So impressive...

This is just stupid. You can't just disqualify a support partner on the basis of "they're outclassed and will never be played", that's just the same as assuming characters below Lower Mid are never played. Don't you complain about the high tiers in FE10 being the only ones played? Ellen's near the middle of upper mid, there's more than a reasonable chance she's being played.

So show me how Ellen uses the first ring better than Saul AND Clarine. She doesn't even use the second ring better than RAY, that dude's almost in Low.

Speaking of, here's something else you overlooked [I'm starting to wonder if you left out most of this shit on purpose]: Lugh will easily be able to use Aircalibur in the desert by now so Cecilia's weapon rank is of no advantage. Then, Cecilia only has 2 mov in the desert, Lugh has his full five. Wonder who's winning in that chapter?

You mean the same wyverns that OHKO him until he promotes, of which point they don't appear again until chapter 21 en masse? Yeah, it's great that he can use it as well as she is, but it stops being funny when before he can finish them, the bastard drives a spear through his chest like a shiskabob. Someone has to draw them in first, and it sure as hell isn't Lou. Guess who can?

Cecilia: Ch-chamon-a, HEE HEE!!

Hell, she can bring in wyvern lords too.

So I'm not liking a lot of these leverls you have Lugh at. If we're babying Thany, we're babying Lugh. And Lugh is much easier to baby than Thany anyway [Res hit at 2 range>>>2 pathetic hits at 1 range with weak concrete durability] so Lugh closer to what Thany would be around that time, plz. I'm getting the idea he's getting less favoritism than Thany from the first statement I quoted.

You just have no idea how long you have to baby Lou, do ya? Thany stops being a puss when her actually existing supports start to kick in, then the promotion launches her up more. Lou doesn't have a strong answer to either of these.

bblader1 wrote:See, this is what annoys me about the Thany shit. Thany needs kills spoonfed into her dondon[no capital, satisfied?] conceded to this and justified it with "well if she needs a small amount of effort to be better, why not take it"? And do we give Lugh the same treatment? Nope! It's like this rule is applied and de-applied whenever convenient.

Well, I certainly haven't applied this treatment to Lugh, so don't blame me for it. Lugh's chip damage in earlygame is actually significantly more powerful and accurate than anyone else's, so while I don't think he's leveling like Allen/Lance/Dieck fast, I don't think getting EXP should be a problem for him. I mean, we raised Lilina on the assumption that it wasn't too difficult to get her kills, so I don't see why we should fall back to a double standard. There's also Thany that BB brought up, but she only needs 9 levels while Lugh needs more.

bblader1 wrote:But you totally neglected to mention, intentionally or not, that there are a lot of mages on this map, and your options for tanking+countering them are limited outside of Marcus, Thany, and of course, Lugh.

Lugh isn't better suited to this job than anyone else. Actually, he's rather poorly suited for this job because his counters do poor damage whereas another unit can counter with a Javelin for more damage.

bblader1 wrote:Speaking of, here's something else you overlooked [I'm starting to wonder if you left out most of this shit on purpose]: Lugh will easily be able to use Aircalibur in the desert by now so Cecilia's weapon rank is of no advantage. Then, Cecilia only has 2 mov in the desert, Lugh has his full five. Wonder who's winning in that chapter?

The only problem here is that Lugh can't survive a shot from any of the WLs (Grandjackal is bound to bring this up anyway), but you can just pair him with someone who can, so the point is rather flimsy anyway. And Cecilia can't take them all on at once, either.

dondon151 wrote:
Well, I certainly haven't applied this treatment to Lugh, so don't blame me for it. Lugh's chip damage in earlygame is actually significantly more powerful and accurate than anyone else's, so while I don't think he's leveling like Allen/Lance/Dieck fast, I don't think getting EXP should be a problem for him. I mean, we raised Lilina on the assumption that it wasn't too difficult to get her kills, so I don't see why we should fall back to a double standard. There's also Thany that BB brought up, but she only needs 9 levels while Lugh needs more.

Plenty more, and that's my problem with Lou. At least with Lillina, we get what we want soon, someone who can hit hard with magic. Lou doesn't start doubling consistently until generally after chapter 16 when he promotes. Even then, he has the problem of being indurable without workable dodge. Not to say Lillna doesn't have this problem, but we blow Lou's "lead" out of proportion. His only significant advantage in this sense is that he can destroy pegs and wyverns with aircalibur. Lillina can do the same in one shot with Aircalibur n the pegs of Ilia as soon as level 17, 16 if she has a +1 ATK support, level 15 a +2. Considering C Roy, B Gonzales...

Again, not saying Lillina is better (she isn't), but Lou's not so much better as to be a tier apart. In a realistic situation, it's not like it's any easier to give him kills over her even still.

The only problem here is that Lugh can't survive a shot from any of the WLs (Grandjackal is bound to bring this up anyway), but you can just pair him with someone who can, so the point is rather flimsy anyway. And Cecilia can't take them all on at once, either.

It's true, but at least she's able to afford a mistake. Lou I have to wall in, Cecilia I'm free to be a little linient with. Cecilia in a way is able to take on a wyvern lord better. Someone draws in, she attacks, lord attacks her, she survives and counters. It is 1 enemy type, but Lou is certainly unable to do this.

Again, ignoring she can Libro and Rest in this chapter, which is huge.

Grandjackal wrote:
It's true, but at least she's able to afford a mistake. Lou I have to wall in, Cecilia I'm free to be a little linient with. Cecilia in a way is able to take on a wyvern lord better. Someone draws in, she attacks, lord attacks her, she survives and counters. It is 1 enemy type, but Lou is certainly unable to do this.

That other person can't just kill the enemy WL outright? They can't counter from 2 range.

Grandjackal wrote:Again, ignoring she can Libro and Rest in this chapter, which is huge.

Cecilia starts with C staves. You start to get acutely aware of this in a 0% growths run when Clarine is a better staff user than Cecilia. And good luck restoring units with 2 move in the desert.

dondon151 wrote:
That other person can't just kill the enemy WL outright? They can't counter from 2 range.

49 HP, 4 Res, 13 AS. Lou would need 17 AS to double (which is ridiculous, he needs to be level 20/2, or wing him at 20, neither of which should be possible in an efficient run at this point in time), and at level 16 has 10 Mag. With Ellen A, that's 13. Aircalibur would be 24 Mt. Only 30 damage, and the wyvern lord retorts with a stab in the face with silver. Cecilia has 2 less mt, but in exchange when the wyvern lord retorts, she survives the hit and kills the bastard on the counter.

Lou didn't magically get ambush, nor is he level 20/2 to double them.

Interesting note. Wyvern riders have 39 HP. Even without factoring their 2 Res, Lou can't OHKO them, while the WRs can do that to him. Granted he can double them, but that still just means with one dead, another will come in for the kill. I'd say killing the more dangerous enemy more safely>killing 1 WR.

Fun fact-A level 17 Lillina can pull that off with C Roy B Gonzo. Not gonna happen, but just showing what you need to pull that off in the current moment.

Grandjackal wrote:
Cecilia starts with C staves. You start to get acutely aware of this in a 0% growths run when Clarine is a better staff user than Cecilia. And good luck restoring units with 2 move in the desert.

Erk...Ok, no Libro.

But as for Restoring? Only 3 sleep staff uses, and the two main targets are Sophia and Roy. Sophia starts some spaces back, so if she's put to sleep, Cecilia should be nearby. Roy's got two move as well, keeping around shouldn't be a problem.

Again, not seeing Lou helping much at all.

Grandjackal wrote:
49 HP, 4 Res, 13 AS. Lou would need 17 AS to double, and at level 16 has 10 Mag. With Ellen A, that's 13. Aircalibur would be 24 Mt. Only 30 damage, and the wyvern lord retorts with a stab in the face with silver. Cecilia has 2 less mt, but in exchange when the wyvern lord retorts, she survives the hit and kills the bastard on the counter.

Here's how the turn sequence goes, since it's apparently too complicated to understand:

Player phase: other unit (Echidna in this example) moves in WK/WL attack range.
Enemy phase: Echidna counters WK/WL.
Player phase: Lugh KOs WK with Aircalibur. In the case of the WL, he attacks from range with Aircalibur and Echidna moves in to KO him if he survives.

Grandjackal wrote:
But as for Restoring? Only 3 sleep staff uses, and the two main targets are Sophia and Roy. Sophia starts some spaces back, so if she's put to sleep, Cecilia should be nearby. Roy's got two move as well, keeping around shouldn't be a problem.

There's also a priest with Silence. If your other staff user gets silenced, Cecilia must be within 2 spaces to restore him. If she doesn't, and she gets silenced or slept next turn... So effectively giving Cecilia Restore limits the movement range of your other staff user.

dondon151 wrote:
Here's how the turn sequence goes, since it's apparently too complicated to understand:

Because Cecilia is clearly incapable of this. In fact:

Player Phase: Cecilia stands in range
Enemy: Wyvern attacks. Cecilia counters.
Player: Cecilia attacks, kills.

There, did it all by herself.

There's also a priest with Silence. If your other staff user gets silenced, Cecilia must be within 2 spaces to restore him. If she doesn't, and she gets silenced or slept next turn... So effectively giving Cecilia Restore limits the movement range of your other staff user.

Did they become incapable of trading upon getting silenced? The fact she's forced and can do this in an emergency like this is good enough reason to see she has utility here.

So show me how Ellen uses the first ring better than Saul AND Clarine. She doesn't even use the second ring better than RAY, that dude's almost in Low.

I'm not going to because that's not the point. You're essentially saying he's never going to get Ellen on the basis Ellen isn't High tier which is stupid. It's almost as bad as saying redundant characters like OJ are never played. And since OJ is never played, we will never see him do anything useful at all. OJ to bottom plz

You mean the same wyverns that OHKO him until he promotes, of which point they don't appear again until chapter 21 en masse? Yeah, it's great that he can use it as well as she is, but it stops being funny when before he can finish them, the bastard drives a spear through his chest like a shiskabob. Someone has to draw them in first, and it sure as hell isn't Lou. Guess who can?

Cecilia: Ch-chamon-a, HEE HEE!!

Hell, she can bring in wyvern lords too.

right

you enjoy doing that in any reasonable time with all two of her movement

Well, I certainly haven't applied this treatment to Lugh, so don't blame me for it. Lugh's chip damage in earlygame is actually significantly more powerful and accurate than anyone else's, so while I don't think he's leveling like Allen/Lance/Dieck fast, I don't think getting EXP should be a problem for him. I mean, we raised Lilina on the assumption that it wasn't too difficult to get her kills, so I don't see why we should fall back to a double standard. There's also Thany that BB brought up, but she only needs 9 levels while Lugh needs more.

I bought up Thany and you admitting we needed to slow down for her to create a fallacy in Jackal's argument, not to launch an attack on you.

Because Cecilia is clearly incapable of this. In fact:

Player Phase: Cecilia stands in range
Enemy: Wyvern attacks. Cecilia counters.
Player: Cecilia attacks, kills.

There, did it all by herself.

Take a-why would you DELIBERATELY want to endanger Cecilia's well being to cater to her two move? It forces us to heal her which is bad because somebody else might need it and if we don't she risks getting ownt by another wyvern out of the fog. With Lugh, his existing mov means having somebody take a hit for him [Miredy comes to mind right away] while still being in range of owning a wyvern is much, much, easier. I know I know tanking is an iffy argument but the point is that it's still safer than constantly leaving Cecilia at 1-2 HP where she won't be able to escape, and more productive since Lugh can do MUCH more than she can with over twice her move.

[quote="bblader1"]

So show me how Ellen uses the first ring better than
I'm not going to because that's not the point. You're essentially saying he's never going to get Ellen on the basis Ellen isn't High tier which is stupid. It's almost as bad as saying redundant characters like OJ are never played. And since OJ is never played, we will never see him do anything useful at all. OJ to bottom plz

Get rid of Clarine. Unless you're saying we're only gonna have 1 healer on the team at all times (incredibly stupid), Saul joins the fray. She's not getting the first ring, and chances are slim for the second. For this long, it's an entirely self-serving support for Lou that does not help Ellen do her job of staffing any better. Point is it's a completely ineffective team up that doesn't even really help Lou out till the far reaches of the game when he's promoted and doubling steadily, and by that I mean a lousy 9 avoid that doesn't turn him into a dodge tank.

Some people in upper mid are there for a reason other than one who becomes good eventually. Marcus is in high/upper mid, you don't see anyone pairing him up with anybody.

This is just ignoring the fact that generally does not become any safer from this. 9 avoid is not special for someone who is under constant risk of being insta-blicked.

right

you enjoy doing that in any reasonable time with all two of her movement

Clearly, letting Lou use his full move to sacrifice himself in the name of pulling in wyverns is MUCH wiser!

I bought up Thany and you admitting we needed to slow down for her to create a fallacy in Jackal's argument, not to launch an attack on you.

You ignore the fact that Lou is STILL going through growing pains well into chapter 14, hers ends 8x. Thany wasn't being ORKOd by a vast majority of existing enemies in that time either. Nor do I remember Lou gaining flight and large move.

Lou is a glorified Walt.

Yeah, with all two of her move. Often meaning she is unable to reach the Wyvern to attack.

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap14.htm

4 spaces away from the first group i the upper left by the silver card. So is everyone else not a mage type. At least she's capable, meaning I have more reason to transport her. Lou just gets gibbed. Only person I think who has the durability is a supported promoted Clarine, who will have the problem of not having the rank for Aircalibur, and her chances are on dodge rather than actual defensive measures.

So, unless you're Bartre with the Armads, you aren't gonna be pulling off any better in drawng in counter damage.

Get rid of Clarine. Unless you're saying we're only gonna have 1 healer on the team at all times (incredibly stupid), Saul joins the fray. She's not getting the first ring, and chances are slim for the second. For this long, it's an entirely self-serving support for Lou that does not help Ellen do her job of staffing any better. Point is it's a completely ineffective team up that doesn't even really help Lou out till the far reaches of the game when he's promoted and doubling steadily, and by that I mean a lousy 9 avoid that doesn't turn him into a dodge tank.

You can sugar coat it all you want but the fact is that these arguments don't fly. Seriously, is the best team the only one ever played now? You're being quite thick about this one issue.

And goddess, stop with the one sided support thing. We get it. But Ellen has no other supports. She does not give half a shit.

Clearly, letting Lou use his full move to sacrifice himself in the name of pulling in wyverns is MUCH wiser!

Only, um, we're not using his mov to tank wyverns? What kind of mental defect would think this as a good idea?

You ignore the fact that Lou is STILL going through growing pains well into chapter 14, hers ends 8x. Thany wasn't being ORKOd by a vast majority of existing enemies in that time either. Nor do I remember Lou gaining flight and large move.

Lou is a glorified Walt.

We can't really say anything for sure about that until the same "slow down for kills" favoritism applied to Thany is applied to Lugh which would put him at higher levels and thus make him perform better, hm?

So is everyone else not a mage type.

Um, everyone else not a mage or flier is nearly worthless on this chapter, you realize that. Promoted Rutger to smoke the Mamkute/tank the axemen, that's it.

Btw, you're really exaggerating the durability win of "getting One shotted" and "getting one shotted and left with single digit HP". If Lugh is at a higher level he might not even BE one shotted [You did say Riders might ORK? 17 Lugh gets a HP lvl so he'll be fine]

Oh, and to add:

Did they become incapable of trading upon getting silenced? The fact she's forced and can do this in an emergency like this is good enough reason to see she has utility here.

No, but it adds a lot of inconvenience. Think of what this does. I need to sacrifice a flier's turn who likely had something better to do to take Restore off of Cecilia, and then you have to consider Ellen might not be in range to take the restore and use it on the same turn since she's also got a lot to do for this chapter. Furthermore, if a target further than two spaces away from Cecilia needs to be restored, Ellen could have gotten there first (Not that she needs it, but just to rub it in, Ellen has three times her move if she got the ring) Cecilia with Restore is just not a good idea.

bblader1 wrote:
You can sugar coat it all you want but the fact is that these arguments don't fly. Seriously, is the best team the only one ever played now? You're being quite thick about this one issue.

My point is that Ellen is that she's outlived her welcome. She does not perform well enough otherwise at this point in time to be worth fielding. Her only real job is staffing, and I now have 3 other people who can do just that. What the hell do I need a FOURTH for? This is an efficiency discussion, the excuse of "we are not always using the best team" doesn't fly, because the only reason Ellen is in upper mid to begin with is earlygame healing. By the second ring when fucking RAY can outclass you upon using the ring...Yeah, have you noticed that dude's almost in low? Do you need any more sign that perhaps Ellen's sort of dragging us down at this point if her performance afterwards is that bad?

No, and her support with Lou is not worth such effort. It does little for the both of them.

And goddess, stop with the one sided support thing. We get it. But Ellen has no other supports. She does not give half a shit.

It's a very meager support that is frankly not worth the time or the support points. It requires having to drag Ellen around, who at some point becomes fourth wheel.

Only, um, we're not using his mov to tank wyverns? What kind of mental defect would think this as a good idea?

Lou's being OHKOd, your idea that he can pull in wyverns is moot. I pull in wyverns, I can't let a single one survive the next turn. This would require basically my whole group, thanks to how move fucks everyone over in the desert. If even one is alive, g'night Lou.

At least Cecilia can draw in one, then proceed to take care of it on her own, even wyvern lords.

We can't really say anything for sure about that until the same "slow down for kills" favoritism applied to Thany is applied to Lugh which would put him at higher levels and thus make him perform better, hm?

I CAN'T use him any better than Walt, who has ya know, a problem leveling up! chapter 4, t's not like I can afford to have him tank, he's at best picking up kills to get a level for the chapter. Chapter 5, literally everything can either ORKO or OHKO, and chapter 6 Walt gets the Steel Bow to outdo Lou everwhere except on armors. Chapter 7?

Walt level 6 with steel bow has 15 mt. Lou at level 6 has 11 mt (do note I had less chapters to work with Lou, yet they're equal levels). Enemies generally have 2 Res and 5-9 def. Wow, at best, Lou does 3 more damage! : D Yet at times, Walt can actually pull off better offense. Let's not forget wyverns, of which he'd have 30 mt with steel bow on. So clearly I have more reason to bring friggin Walt to the hardest chapter of earlygame, and I DID favor Lou to get the results.

Um, everyone else not a mage or flier is nearly worthless on this chapter, you realize that. Promoted Rutger to smoke the Mamkute/tank the axemen, that's it.

Btw, you're really exaggerating the durability win of "getting One shotted" and "getting one shotted and left with single digit HP". If Lugh is at a higher level he might not even BE one shotted [You did say Riders might ORK? 17 Lugh gets a HP lvl so he'll be fine]

Or Cecilia can do it free of charge without effort OR need of luck to be on her side.

Because Cecilia's not a total pussy.

No, but it adds a lot of inconvenience. Think of what this does. I need to sacrifice a flier's turn who likely had something better to do to take Restore off of Cecilia, and then you have to consider Ellen might not be in range to take the restore and use it on the same turn since she's also got a lot to do for this chapter. Furthermore, if a target further than two spaces away from Cecilia needs to be restored, Ellen could have gotten there first (Not that she needs it, but just to rub it in, Ellen has three times her move if she got the ring) Cecilia with Restore is just not a good idea.

....Clearly, silence immobilized the healers as well. Silenced healer goes to Cecilia, hands her the staff, Cecilia Restores, other healer is free to heal actual damage. Or by your idea, have your two more mobile healers trade staffs and Restore eachother and let the low mobile Cecilia attempt to heal someone.

You basically purposefully did something stupid to attempt to counter me.

I just want to say that I see no reason to continue this argument until you stop being so ridiculously stubborn about denying Ellen a chance to be played for no good reason other than that she's worse than Clarine and Saul.

Oh, 30 turns in 5 chapters is hardly "much effort", btw.

bblader1 wrote:I just want to say that I see no reason to continue this argument until you stop being so ridiculously stubborn about denying Ellen a chance to be played for no good reason other than that she's worse than Clarine and Saul.

Oh, 30 turns in 5 chapters is hardly "much effort", btw.

She's worse than RAY, you get that, right? Here, I'll show you.

15/1 Ray
27 HP, 17 Mag, 12 Skill, 12 Speed, 6 Luck, 7 Def, 13 Res

20/1 Ellen
27 HP, 13 Mag, 14 Skill 13 Speed, 20 Luck, 2 Def, 19 Res

Inferior weapon choice for Ellen, and now Ray has staffs. 13 speed is doubling very little, if anything. It doesn't get prettier as the game goes on. 46 avoid is far from reliable, and he has a 5 Def lead. A Lou is not helping this by any means. All it does is have her have 1 less magic base, which doesn't make up for his 3 mt sronger basic tome, nor does it make up for Nosferatu. On top of this, Ray now has staffs. We could say Ellen could be kept unpromoted and used for her staffs, but then she becomes redundant. Your other staffers can all do that job+have actual offense or avoid. So she could be a spare healer, but when the second ring comes along, anyone else can become a second string healer. Her offense is worse than Ray, who's practically bottom of the barrel as far as mages go.

It's not just high tier she's worse than. Her position is on utility alone, and does not accurately measure just how bad she sucks at her other job. I can't afford to show her to the enemy at all, and her offense is shit on top of it. Nevermind that this makes her on the concern for the rings list below Clarine, Saul, Lou, and now fucking Ray. I could just use Cecilia instead and spare us the need to care because she requires no ring.

Grandjackal wrote:13 speed is doubling very little, if anything.

Apparently 13 AS was important enough that you decided Bartre would make good use of a Speedwings (and he only has 12 AS).