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Fire Emblem Genesis » Fire Emblem Tier Lists » Sword of Seals » Thany (Ilia) could reasonably move down to lower-mid

Thany (Ilia) could reasonably move down to lower-mid

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Colonel M
Red Fox of Fire
dondon151
sPortsman
Vykan12
9 posters

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Vykan12

Vykan12

First, her earlygame is wtfterrible.

Chapter 2

Thany (slim lance) vs fighter (iron axe): 3x2 damage/71 hit/7 crit vs 12 damage/58 hit/0 crit
Thany (javelin) vs fighter (iron axe): 5 damage/46 hit/2 crit vs 12 damage/72 hit/0 crit

You can ship an iron lance over to her but that doesn`t really help.

Thany (iron lance) vs fighter (iron axe): 6 damage/61 hit/2 crit vs 12 damage/66 hit/0 crit

She cannot ORKO soldiers, which puts her below Ward in offence for both this chapter and others that are soldier heavy (hello chapter 3!). She fails to double archers with anything but a slim lance, and archers 1HKO her with about 10 more hit than the fighter was pulling on her.

In short, she barely seems usable. And what exactly is going to take her out of this hump? Her durability growths are 45 hp/10 def/25 res/180 avo so she’s going to be avoid reliant her entire career. Doesn’t help that she’s stuck with wind affinity, which only works to help her offensive issues. Speaking of which, 30 str is also pretty sub-par. The only aspect that growths are really helping her with is 60 spd, but even her doubling ability will never be THAT good because of her terrible con.

I don’t want to make a strictly speculative argument based on growths, though. Let’s take a look at dread isle where Thany supposedly shines with an early promotion. I’d say 12/1 seems reasonable enough.

Chapter 9

Thany (iron sword) vs fighter (steel axe): 10x2 damage/100 hit/5 crit vs 15 damage/1 hit/0 crit

Thany (Ilia) could reasonably move down to lower-mid PhotoOprah2005Academy%20AwardsSurprised

That’s one hell of an improvement. However, let’s not get carried away with Thany’s ranking just because she does well against the prevailing enemy type in 3/31 of the game’s chapters. For one thing, she’s still relatively unsafe in the FOW maps in the isles because bow users still rape her.

Thany (iron sword) vs archer (steel bow): 7x2 damage/81 hit/1 crit vs 29 atk/34 hit/0 crit

Thany only has 28 hp, so if the bow user hits, she’s dead, even if the chance is 23.46%. Moreover, the bow user’s hit rate can easily go higher since even a steel sword weighs Thany down by 5 AS/10 avo. What you’ll also notice is that Thany 3RKOes this enemy whereas she 2RKOed the fighters. This is a sign that Thany’s offence is laughable against enemies with a decent def stat, which I’ll get to later.

Actually, now that I look at it, bow users are surprisingly frequent in chapter 9.

Thany (Ilia) could reasonably move down to lower-mid Thanyintrouble

Now there’s an important price to pay for Thany’s early promotion; her exp gain gets murdered. 7 exp per attack AND kill means you’re levelling about twice as fast as Marcus does in earlygame on NM, just to give you an idea. If it doesn’t, it takes Thany 24 atks/kills to gain a single level-up. If she were still 12/0, she’d be gaining 10 exp/atk and 30 exp/kill, so with a 50/50 mix of atks/kills, it would take her 5 enemy encounters to level up. That’s less than ΒΌ of what her promoted counterpart has to face.

Let’s jump to chapter 13. I wouldn’t expect Thany to be any higher than 12/3.

Thany (iron lance) vs mage (elfire): 13x2 damage/82 hit/3 crit vs 12 damage/46 hit/0 crit
Thany (steel lance) vs mage (elfire): 16x2 damage/67 hit/3 crit vs 12 damage/56 hit/0 crit
Thany (javelin) vs mage (elfire): 12x2 damage/67 hit/3 crit vs 12 damage/52 hit/0 crit
Thany (steel sword) vs mage (elfire): 14x2 damage/82 hit/3 crit vs 12 damage/50 hit/0 crit

I hope you see where I’m going with this. We can shuffle through as many weapons as we want, Thany still struggles to ORKO a freaking mage (29 hp, only gets with steel lance) and gets 3HKOed at 50ish hit in the process. Not cool.

If that weren’t bad enough, there’s now ballistae to slow her down, and the bow users have upgraded to steel/silver/long bows. Only the last one isn’t a 1HKO, but still manages to take more than 50% of her hp and is impossible for her to counter on enemy phase.

Thany (Ilia) could reasonably move down to lower-mid Thanytrouble2

Flying is cool, but it’s not particularly advantageous if you’re forced to take the long route around the level.

Thany (steel lance) vs cavalier (steel lance): 11x2 damage/72 hit/2 crit vs 14 damage/40 hit/0 crit
Thany (steel lance) vs paladin (silver lance): 9 damage/59 hit/1 crit vs 20 damage/55 hit/0 crit
Thany (iron lance) vs mercenary (steel sword): 10x2 damage/80 hit/1 crit vs 12 damage/46 hit/0 crit
Thany (iron lance) vs hero (steel sword): 4 damage/76 hit/0 crit vs 12 damage/47 hit/0 crit

Though most of all:

Thany (steel lance) vs wyvern (steel lance): 6x2 damage/67 hit/1 crit vs 18 damage/39 hit/0 crit

As you can see, Thany is very easily 2-3RKOed by non-negligible hitrates. Even someone pulling 35 real has a 4.28% chance of killing her in 3 hits, which is terrible. On offence, her hitrate is all over the place, but in cases where she has WTN, you can expect hit in the 60-80s range, which is hardly reliable for someone who 2-3RKOes unpromoted enemies. That’s pretty funny actually; she takes the same number of hits to kill enemies as they do to her, if not more, which is a definite sign of suckage.

What worries me most is how she fares against the promoted variety of enemies (and wyverns). They completely demolish her even if you gave her a reaver weapon. She’s still gaining 7 exp/hit and kill, so unless we’re shoving energy rings and atk supports up her wazoo, she’s going to struggle mightily lategame.

You’ll notice in my comparison that Thany is juggling weapons around to maximize her offence. This isn’t realistic in practice; if she’s using an iron lance against a mercenary then gets attacked by a pack of wyverns, she’s going to be doing 6/38 damage to them instead of 12, which is pretty useless. Or if she uses a javelin to counter mages on enemy phase, any other enemy she encounters will have >50 hit and will barely get scratched.

I think that’s sufficient to make my point for now. Flying combined with high availability is great and all, but it should only warrant you a ranking like top of upper-mid if you have the combat to support it. Thany just clearly doesn’t.

sPortsman

sPortsman

in b4 dondon types a huge essay on flying utility

dondon151



yeah i don't feel like it but saving turns through flying utility for virtually the entirety of the game puts you at least in upper mid

Red Fox of Fire

Red Fox of Fire

Wouldn't this argument be much better suited to Thany (Sacae) since in Ilia you at least have to use the Pegs somewhat, especially if you want to use Shin, and her performance in the Sacae maps is probably much worse anyway? I'll admit I only skimmed your post, but I didn't notice anything specific about Ilia route.

dondon151



Vykan12 wrote:Flying is cool, but it’s not particularly advantageous if you’re forced to take the long route around the level.
both ways along the ground are virtually equidistant, and she still flies a straighter path over the ocean anyway

Vykan12 wrote:I think that’s sufficient to make my point for now. Flying combined with high availability is great and all, but it should only warrant you a ranking like top of upper-mid if you have the combat to support it. Thany just clearly doesn’t.
if you actually had that then you'd be high to top tier, easily (i.e. miledy with more availability)

Colonel M

Colonel M

I think Top of Lower Mid seems fair enough at the moment. Well, I'll look at this closer when I get back but I can't really disagree with all of Vykan's argument (being ORKOed by any Bow user is pretty significant despite having good Avo).

sPortsman

sPortsman

Red Fox of Fire wrote:Wouldn't this argument be much better suited to Thany (Sacae) since in Ilia you at least have to use the Pegs somewhat, especially if you want to use Shin, and her performance in the Sacae maps is probably much worse anyway? I'll admit I only skimmed your post, but I didn't notice anything specific about Ilia route.

At worst she needs to move down on Sacae. Other peoplle are being punished for having a bad time there, goddess knows she needs to be.

Vykan12

Vykan12

yeah i don't feel like it but saving turns through flying utility for virtually the entirety of the game puts you at least in upper mid

I think you're blowing flying utility a little out of proportion.

First, what is the unique factor behind flying utility? Compared to a mount, the advantages are only bypassing terrain that other people either get movement penalties for or cannot cross altogether. Ok, but what are you going to do with it? She can visit some villages earlier than others, but that is secondary towards seizing (the goal of most chapters), so you could just have someone like Treck do it slower while achieving the same turn count. So in that regard, her flying benefit lets her trade the acquired item to someone marginally sooner.

Looking at flying in terms of ferrying, her role once again doesn't distinguish much from a filler mount like Zealot. In some cases she could drop Roy further, but we don't want to plop Roy in a group of enemies since he'll probably die unless he was dropped on a forest with his supports in range. Though if that were the case, then there's a good chance Alan/Lance were chugging him along anyway. Thany could also carry an uber fighter across a mountain and drop them on the other side. However, who is really going to fulfill that role? They'd be stranded without healers for a while, so unless they have amazing durability, they need to be stocked up on elixirs. Offensively, unless they're ORKOing machines, they'll get surrounded. Moreover, if that unit were some combat god like Percival, then you're just focusing all your exp into 1 unit, which will hurt you in the long run.

Then there's all the limitations to her actual flying utility due to the fact that a) she's toast if she gets attacked while carrying someone and b) archers/wyverns/cavs and whatnot add further limitations on where she can reach.

Also, assuming you believe I made a sound argument that Thany's combat sucks, her uniqueness as a flier quickly diminishes. Once we get Tate, Miledy, Zeiss and Juno, Thany becomes a completely interchangeable unit. If you have 2 fliers already fielded, having Thany as a third just to ferry people or reach key places becomes rather redundant.

dondon151



Vykan12 wrote:First, what is the unique factor behind flying utility? Compared to a mount, the advantages are only bypassing terrain that other people either get movement penalties for or cannot cross altogether. Ok, but what are you going to do with it? She can visit some villages earlier than others, but that is secondary towards seizing (the goal of most chapters), so you could just have someone like Treck do it slower while achieving the same turn count. So in that regard, her flying benefit lets her trade the acquired item to someone marginally sooner.
Your wording suggests that you don't think the advantages of flying utility as important in any way. My only response is that you vastly underestimate the quantity of hostile or untraversable terrain in this game.

Vykan12 wrote:Looking at flying in terms of ferrying, her role once again doesn't distinguish much from a filler mount like Zealot. In some cases she could drop Roy further, but we don't want to plop Roy in a group of enemies since he'll probably die unless he was dropped on a forest with his supports in range. Though if that were the case, then there's a good chance Alan/Lance were chugging him along anyway.
So you drop Roy after the enemies are cleared, which is still faster than Roy staying behind with no one to carry him because everyone else is fighting, or Roy moving on his feet.

Vykan12 wrote:Thany could also carry an uber fighter across a mountain and drop them on the other side. However, who is really going to fulfill that role? They'd be stranded without healers for a while, so unless they have amazing durability, they need to be stocked up on elixirs. Offensively, unless they're ORKOing machines, they'll get surrounded. Moreover, if that unit were some combat god like Percival, then you're just focusing all your exp into 1 unit, which will hurt you in the long run.
Using Seth/Marcus/Titania hurts you in the long run. We've all seen this argument before.

Vykan12 wrote:Then there's all the limitations to her actual flying utility due to the fact that a) she's toast if she gets attacked while carrying someone and b) archers/wyverns/cavs and whatnot add further limitations on where she can reach.
Those limitations aren't enough to neutralize flying utility to a significant extent.

Vykan12 wrote:Also, assuming you believe I made a sound argument that Thany's combat sucks, her uniqueness as a flier quickly diminishes. Once we get Tate, Miledy, Zeiss and Juno, Thany becomes a completely interchangeable unit. If you have 2 fliers already fielded, having Thany as a third just to ferry people or reach key places becomes rather redundant.
Well, Reikken made an argument a long while back that Thany's combat doesn't suck, so that's not my priority. While it's true that fliers, like anything else in economics, experience diminishing returns, the fact is that there are so few of them that even if you did already have 2 deployed, there would still be high demand for a 3rd one. The rest of your team needs only about 2 staff users, a dancer, and quite honestly not that many combat units. In fact, the diminishing returns for combat units is far greater than diminishing returns for fliers, because of enemy phase (where only one combat unit can be considered most of the time) and because of the limitations on what combat does (i.e. solely kill enemies).

I'm pretty sure you've seen my 0% growth videos so I didn't link you to them, but that is some empirical proof for the usefulness of flying utility.

Colonel M

Colonel M

If we're going to keep Thany up there due to just "utility", I want Zealot / Treck / Noah up now.

Grandjackal

Grandjackal

I suppose in my list on serenes, we jumped to the utter god thing too quickly, though at least Reikken showed she's at least able to hold her own n the isles, and has the flight utility (seriously, she's just that awesome in the isles).

I can agree with a drop to lower mid. Mainly was waiting for a reasonable errr reason as to why she should drop, all I got was "loloverrated". Comes to show when things are troublesome, Vykan comes to the rescue.

Though this does show a point, that ranged combatants are fare more common in this game than people tend to think.

dondon151



Having a horse is completely different from having a pegasus, dude. Horses still have to go the long way around untraversable terrain, they're penalized for adverse terrain, and by going through traversable terrain they can't just walk around enemies that will threaten them when carrying another unit. And it's not like Noah/Treck/Zealot have amazing offense either; they have doubling problems against many enemy types for virtually their entire existences.

I suppose you guys should, you know, try things out before arguing against flying utility. Because this isn't some easily defeated personal experience bullshit; you need neither stats nor luck to make the most out of flying utility because it's about as guaranteed as things get in Fire Emblem.

sPortsman

sPortsman

sPortsman wrote:At worst she needs to move down on Sacae. Other peoplle are being punished for having a bad time there, goddess knows she needs to be.

Colonel M

Colonel M

Even if Flying utility is guaranteed, I don't think that suddenly justifies a "free pass" to Upper Mid. Top of Low Mid seems more, MORE than fair to me considering her ass durability gets in the way of it.

Also what BBlader said: Definitely in Sacae.

dondon151



Colonel M wrote:Even if Flying utility is guaranteed, I don't think that suddenly justifies a "free pass" to Upper Mid. Top of Low Mid seems more, MORE than fair to me considering her ass durability gets in the way of it.
And I think that it does justify a placement in upper mid. You don't need durability to exercise flying utility to an even considerable extent.

sPortsman

sPortsman

dondon if you don't have a counter-argument for Thany down in Sacae just say so

btw

And I think that it does justify a placement in upper mid.

tate up plox



Last edited by sPortsman on Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

dondon151



Oh I totally agree with Thany down on Sacae route, so I didn't bother addressing it.

Colonel M

Colonel M

If the case that we see is that her flying utility is the savior, could we agree to bottom of Upper Mid since Vykan did at least prove her combat is wtfterrible and the durability DOES hinder some of her capabilities?

This speaks for Ilia route.

dondon151



I don't see how "prove" is the right word when Reikken "proved" the exact opposite, unless it's standard that proofs regularly contradict each other.

sPortsman

sPortsman

Remember it was also Reikken that "proved" Marcus is High tier, and he also "proved" that Echinda/Gonzo support can B by C16 or something like that. Not taking sides but Reikken's word is not the word of god here. You can't use "But Reikken sed no!" to counteract Vykan's post.

dondon151



I don't recall Reikken ever "proving" anything about Marcus without relying heavily on rhetoric and not on statistical comparisons, and I've never agreed with his absurdly fast support speeds either, but neither of those are exactly relevant here, are they? His assumed supports for Thany were maybe a couple of chapters off at most.

Vykan12

Vykan12

How about linking Reikken's post here?

Colonel M

Colonel M

For Vykan's purposes:

This is Reikken's post regarding it

This also has little info regarding against Bows and the like.

IOS

IOS

Thany being Level 5 in Chapter 4? Gaining 4 levels in 2 chapters when you're absolute garbage? I really doubt that.

Toothache



If you do want to use Thany with any reasonable success at all, she does need to be spoonfed kills, and the earlier the better. It isn't like there's a shortage of enemies between Ch 2 and 4 after all.

dondon151



sPortsman wrote:tate up plox
Tate might need to go up, but she's around for only about 2/3 of when Thany is around and she isn't exactly a huge improvement on Thany. So lower mid kind of makes sense.

Red Fox of Fire

Red Fox of Fire

sPortsman wrote:
tate up plox
I would say definitely on Ilia for being the better choice of Pegasi to actually train and allowing us to fully use Shin.

Vykan12

Vykan12

I decided to counter Reikken’s post since there’s a lot there I don’t agree with. I'll get to the second half of it in the next post.

So Thany gets nice supports, and her supporters (Dieck and Lot) are improved by her supporting them. Pro

They’re pretty crappy supports, actually. Thany x Dieck gives partial everything except crit and crit evade, which is about as bad as bonuses can get in GBA FE (maybe full hit and cev would be worse, though not in this game). Likewise, Thany x Lot gives partial everything except atk and crit evade, which is similarly underwhelming. She is among their faster supporters, but that is basically offset by mov differences.

25 turns to C, 30 (55 total) to B. Not quite as fast as Alan-Lance-Roy, so she likely won't get Bs by ch 7 unless you try really hard, but it's pretty close.

Thany joins partway in chapter 2 and has to scurry away from combat whereas Dieck and Lot are just fine taking on the soldiers, particularly if they get a spot on the nearby fort. So if the support starts building in 3, that’s 11 adjacent turns per chapter. If they spend 50% of the time glued together, that’s 22 turns per chapter (or if 75% then 14.6), which is insane for something like chapter 5 where you are only 2-3 turns away from the throne. Even a large map like 3 will only take about 10-12 turns since you’re just dealing with loldiers that are spaced out such as to never overwhelm you.

So no, it won’t be pretty close.

Lot has only one supporter, but he's awesome, and Lot supporting him makes him better. pro, though only half as pro as Thany's. Actually much less than half, since Deak does have other, albeit inferior, supports that he can go to in the absence of Lot, and while the same applies for Thany's Dieck support, for Thany's Lot support, he has no supports at all for a very long time that he can fall back on. So like maybe 3-4x as pro.

This doesn’t make any sense. Why is Lot x Dieck half as pro as Thany x Dieck? The supports are exactly the same speed and anima x thunder is better than wind x thunder, therefore Lot is a better supporter for Dieck. Then Reikken makes a big deal about how Thany is helping out Lot if he were to otherwise be support-less, but the support is reciprocated, so what the hell does it matter?

It's also worth noting that Thany gets more out of the body ring than pretty much anyone else.

This I can agree with.

And on fighters, he does ~12 at ~76% real, while Thany does ~8 (4x2) at ~85% real despite WTD

In almost no time at all, the fighters will grow hp/def faster than Thany grows str, and suddenly she’s doing (2-3)x2 = 4-6 damage to fighters. She’ll want to switch to an iron lance, but now she won’t double and her accuracy falls below Lot’s. Also note that 85 real per hit is actually a 72% chance of landing both hits, so Thany still has worse hit than Lot does technically.

Actually, now that I look at it, Reikken is implying 8 damage is basically as good as 12. Chapter 2 fighters have 27-28 hp so we’re comparing a clean 3RKO to a tight 4RKO.

and forests make hit a real issue

They’re also a defensive bonus that Lot can use whereas Thany can’t. Plus, if an enemy is standing on a forest, it makes it harder for anyone to hit them, not just Lot.

and it's crowded and hard to move around, so Lot has more trouble finding room to attack at all.

Again, how does this not apply to Thany as well?

Also, Thany with iron is as fast as Lance, soon to be faster, despite con issues.

That doesn’t mean either character can double yet. Like in chapter 4, the pirates have 9 AS while the nomads have 10 (cavs are unlisted but they also have high AS, at least on NM). Lance would have to be lv 11-13 while using iron lance to double.

ch 6, yay soldiers and armors for Lot, yay mages and lots of need to ferry Chad around for Thany

Why are mages an advantage for Thany? According to this they have 4AS, so Lot should be able to double them.

Note that I don’t care about the Noah comparison since he’s currently a tier below both characters, so showing Thany > Noah doesn’t damage my case.

10 Lot, C Thany, C Deak
Iron Axe: 18.1 atk, 9.5 AS, 85.0 hit, 8.8 crit - - 31.1 avo, 34.6 hp, 8.8 def, 4.0 res, 14.1 critavo
Steel Axe: 21.1 atk, 6.5 AS, 70.0 hit, 8.8 crit - - 25.1 avo

9 Thany, C Lot, C Dieck
Iron Lance: 15.4 atk, 12.8 AS, 100.5 hit, 12.9 crit - - 40.4 avo, 20.6 hp, 7.8 def, 8.0 res, 19.8 critavo
Slim Lance: 12.4 atk, 16.8 AS, 110.5 hit, 17.9 crit - - 48.4 avo
Steel Lance: 18.4 atk, 7.8 AS, 85.5 hit, 12.9 crit - - 30.4 avo

Fix’d.

ch 8 has a lot of soldiers and armors, which Thany doubles even with a steel lance, tying Lot against them on offense for the most part.

No, she really doesn’t. Using a steel lance, she does 32/35 damage to the soldier listed here, and 10/28 damage to the armor. Lot, however, does 38/35 damage to the soldier and 16/28 to the armor. In both cases, Lot has a clear RKO advantage.

Thany is better at killing everything else, though. Archers, mages, mercs.

Armors + soldiers: 17
Archers + mages: 12

The only mercs appear as reinforcements somewhere around turn 14-15. By then you could either block them or finish the chapter, so wtv at them.

Let’s also fact check whether she is doing better on mages and mercs. She definitely needs to use iron to double them, and as a result only does 22/23 damage to the mage, so by extension she’s definitely not ORKOing the archer. Lot can 2RKO the mage with iron and 2RKO the archer with steel, so Thany’s advantage is purely hit-rate/setting up others for a finishing attack. And even then, her hit rate against either isn’t 100, which means her attacking archers is risky if we’re low on nearby units to finish the job.

Let’s also look more closely at durability, which you seem to be treating as equal importance to offence.

And of course, Lot wins defense. Except against the mages and mercs. Mercs may double Lot. Thany's avo is pretty good when not using a lulzsteel lance.

Lot takes 11 damage from fire!mages while Thany takes 7. After 2 hits, Lot has 12 hp left while Thany has 6. So Thany really just wins against mercs, though once again the huge hp difference between Thany and Lot will minimize that win significantly, as does the mercs’ virtual non-frequency in this chapter anyway.

Now, looking back at soldiers, most of them use steel, meaning they have 22 atk/67 hit.

Vs iron!Lot: 3RKOed at 14 real
Vs steel!Lot: 3RKOed at 21 real

Vs iron!Thany: 2RKOed at 15 real
Vs steel!Thany: 2RKOed at 28 real

So not only does Lot face lower hitrates, he can also absorb an extra hit, which is huge considering how few attacks either character can take. If both characters face 3 attacks while using steel, Lot’s chance of death is 0.9% while Thany’s is 19.1%.

Lower atk enemies sway even heavier on Lot’s side.

Ironlance!soldier: 19 atk/82 hit

Vs iron!Lot: 4RKOed at 34 real
Vs steel!Lot: 4RKOed at 45 real

Vs iron!Thany: 2RKOed at 36 real
Vs steel!Thany: 2RKOed at 54 real

That should really tell you how much more usable Lot is than Thany. She can face a 29% chance of death when Lot still has half his health in tact!

But there’s more. This chapter has 7 forts that give 1 def/20 avo, which means sometimes Lot’s advantage will become considerably larger. Let’s not forget bows that 3-4RKO Lot while 1HKOing Thany at 45-55 display hit.

Your conclusion for C8 was,

Offense: Thany. Defense: Lot.

when it should be more like Lot > Thany on offence and Lot >>> Thany on defence, which easily justifies a tier difference.

12/1 Thany, B B
Iron Sword: 17.3 atk, 20.4 AS, 128.6 hit, 21.8 crit - - 62.4 avo, 28.0 hp, 11.1 def, 11.8 res, 31.6 critavo
Iron Lance: 19.3 atk, 17.4 AS, 113.5 hit, 21.8 crit - - 56.4 avo
Steel Lance: 22.3 atk, 12.4 AS, 98.5 hit, 21.8 crit - - 46.4 avo

Thany's also good at attacking bosses now.

Rofl no. Scott uses axes, so if Thany opts to use lances, he will have 69 effective avoid. Even with an iron lance and supports she’d only manage 39 true hit. So she’s pretty much forced to use an iron sword against him (still only 70-80ish display hit, depending on the support situation). But then Scott has 47 hp/14 effective def, so Thany’s doing 6 damage per round (an 8RKO). Actually, it’s worse than that since the boss recovers some hp every turn, so more like a 12RKO or something. Most importantly, though, it’s not safe for her to attack Scott. He has 35 crit and does 13-14 damage per hit, and a crit would insta-blick Thany.

I’m not sure what bosses she’ll do well in the nearby future, either. Maybe Nord and Oro since they’re lolmages, but we’re not going to give a lot of credit for killing easy bosses. Ain and Freya are pretty much impossible to kill without the wyrmslayer, and Gelero is an improved version of Scott.

There are a few archers (2), but not to worry as Thany can take a hit from an archer and a merc and still be alive.

Even assuming this is true, who cares? There’s still 100 ways Thany could end up dying. She could get attacked by more than 2 enemies, the archer could have a steel bow (relevant in other chapters for sure), you could have a combination of an archer and a fighter kill her off, her supporters fall out of range, making her def drop just enough that the merc can finish her off anyway, etc.

And they have ~32% real on her. Also Thany-A-Lot now or very soon.

A 95 turn support between a flier and a fighter isn’t gonna happen before midgame.

sPortsman

sPortsman

Can anybody contact Reikken and see if he can retaliate, or is dondon just going to do it?

dondon151



Well, my contention is not the same as Reikken's, nor does it exactly oppose anything that Vykan said. I didn't need Reikken to show that Thany's combat was superior to Lot's (in fact I am certain it isn't); I just needed his post to show that Thany's combat is decent enough to warrant upper mid tier in conjunction with flier utility. And I banked on the fact that there is a rather large margin of error to Reikken's contention that would actually disqualify Thany from having decent enough combat.

Of course I realize the lack of clarity when arguing "decent enough" as opposed to arguing "better than x character," but it should suffice.

Narga_Rocks

Narga_Rocks

Why isn't flier utility + decent enough combat enough to get to upper mid? It (along with move) gets Haar an entire tier above Gatrie, despite Gatrie having superior durability and offence. Is flight somehow worth much less in this game?

Vykan12

Vykan12

Thany vs Lot: 2 move difference, 2 move lost to terrain

Haar vs Gatrie: 3 move difference, canto after attacking, 3 move lost to terrain, savior exists, more chapters biased towards fliers (hello 3-3, 3-4, 3-7, 3-11, etc), hilariously better dancer

In addition, the difference between Haar's combat and Gatrie's is much smaller than that of Thany and Lot. Moreover, it's easier to favor Haar to a point where he can destroy enemies at Gatrie's level than it it to do the same for Thany. BEXP and skills don't exist for her, nor do super fast supports (in RD it's like 1 level every 1.5 chapters), and I'm pretty sure there's more stat boosters in RD than in FE6.

Is flight somehow worth much less in this game?

In a way, yes.

Grandjackal

Grandjackal

Narga_Rocks wrote:Why isn't flier utility + decent enough combat enough to get to upper mid? It (along with move) gets Haar an entire tier above Gatrie, despite Gatrie having superior durability and offence. Is flight somehow worth much less in this game?

To explain Vykan's "in a way, yes" point better, lemme put it this way.

Haar not only has flight, but he's durable so he can basically fly anywhere, given he's packing a vulnery or two. This lets him use flight with impunity, so he's far in the action, duking it out with many guys before the rest of your team sees the enemy. This, and Haar has the ability to end several chapters in 1 turn, or is just flat out the fastest way (burning the crates, throwing an axe in Lombrosso's face, killing Ludveck though yeah he's one of the riskier options, flying Ike up the cliffs where he and Ranulf have to arrive, flying Ike over the pothole bridge), all in the end he's still pretty good all the way up until freaking endgame

Thany has flight, but two things seperate her from Haar. She's indurable, and there is only one mission type as opposed to the several Haar finds himself in in which he finds himself to be the best answer. This would be capture the throne. Yeah, we could transport Ike with Thany, but then she has to deal with the fact she's indurable. With her avoid cut in half (speaking of which, no Savior), she can't just plug her indurable ass near the boss, and then you also can't expect her to kill the boss herself. That in itself is a mind boggling notion. We certainly can't expect Roy to do it either. So this would mean she has to wait for backup, in which case a cavalier could have done her job, someone like Lance or Allen who actually support him so when they drop him, Roy's not such a sitting duck.

Tate's pretty much in the same boat, except she needs no effort to basically be a flying Noah with actual speed, but she's still not HAAR durable.

Even Miledy would find problems. By the desert where we need to lift people over that damn ridge, we have three people who can help in this (Miledy, Thany, Tate), as opposed to where Haar is the absolutely only person who can. Percy's chapter, no shield and Miledy has to deal with a fucking sniper and several archers so that's a no go. Zeiss's chapter, she can't fly over the halls so she's no better than any cav. Chapter 17 in both versions is fine and dandy, but then the next chapters of the paths do. Sacae is flat land, her flight means dick because there's no terrain. Ilia happens to be filled with mages, and cutting supportless bad luck Miledy would actually make her a sitting duck to them. The gaidens, Ilia has walls so her flight is no better than a cav, Sacae's gaiden is fair, but there are several thrones of which to make her fly to, so it's still gonna take some luck. Then Bern, where status staffs and high powered wyvern lords can kick even her ass rather quick if we just cut her speed in half.

Haar's an entire tier above people who can be given a single item and suddenly have god mode because the game seems built specifically for him to god mode of which he is the only fast choice for several chapters along with being among your toughest units, where it's not even close to that luxurious for the fliers here.

Flight's great if you're durable and rescuing doesn't cut your speed in half, and the game is made specifically for you to be the best answer for everything for basically more than half the game. Otherwise, you're just someone who ignores troublesome terrain, like the isles in it's entirity (the whole reason Thany rose in the first place)

dondon151



wow guys

flying utility is not worth a lot less in this game

and i am tired of not only explaining, but also showing why.

Narga_Rocks

Narga_Rocks

So, dondon, how many turns would you say Thany was able to shave off your 0% growths run? How often did you want to achieve something with her flight but couldn't find a way because of her (base) durability?

How many turns do Cecilia/Fir/Klein/Lou shave off (in a normal game)? (Not mentioning the ones above them, because this topic's title is about shoving her all the way down to lower-mid.)

Vykan12

Vykan12

A 0% growths run also makes certain advantages seem inflated, particularly base stats and non-combat contributions.

and i am tired of not only explaining, but also showing why.

I'll give your "proof" videos another look.

dondon151



Narga_Rocks wrote:So, dondon, how many turns would you say Thany was able to shave off your 0% growths run? How often did you want to achieve something with her flight but couldn't find a way because of her (base) durability?
I can't really quantify because I've never bothered trying strategies not involving abusing flying, but a few examples have flying being going the shortest distance possible, which is always shorter than a slightly longer distance.

And though I've had Thany been hindered by having shitty durability, that never stopped her from using flying utility (until long range magic came in). I think I maybe lost a turn on chapter 5 (relative to the fastest possible completion) because Thany had to fly deeper in the mountains. I lost a few turns in chapter 13 because I couldn't just fly straight across the ocean due to the ballistae, but I had to fly over it at some point anyway and it still saved me turns. I probably lost a few turns in chapter 14 because Thany can't afford to be attacked at all, but I'm certain that an 11 turn completion would not have been possible without Thany. And so on.

Vykan12 wrote:A 0% growths run also makes certain advantages seem inflated, particularly base stats and non-combat contributions.
Of course, but those non-combat contributions are important in the first place. If I can finish a chapter in x turns going just off non-combat contributions, I can logically finish that chapter in x or less turns after factoring in combat contributions.

Vykan12

Vykan12


Thany dropped Marcus on a fort. Ok, but you could do the same thing by having eg/ Alan open the gate, then having Marcus move onto the fort on the same turn.


Never knew about that shortcut. How many U-turn cutting shortcuts are there in the game, though? Remember that warp/rescue/other fliers exists in lategame, so if she has any major shortcuts to exploit there, it would matter far less.

dondon151



Vykan12 wrote:Thany dropped Marcus on a fort. Ok, but you could do the same thing by having eg/ Alan open the gate, then having Marcus move onto the fort on the same turn.
It also summons like 4 more reinforcements as well as exposing the rest of team to all of those enemies. Not quite the same.

Vykan12 wrote:Never knew about that shortcut. How many U-turn cutting shortcuts are there in the game, though? Remember that warp/rescue/other fliers exists in lategame, so if she has any major shortcuts to exploit there, it would matter far less.
There are a few small ones, like the entirety of chapter 9, or chapter 17S near the gate off the top of my head.

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