Beowulf > Alec?

-before we begin, my apologies if I commit any debating faux pas during this post-

Alec is an opening character in the Prologue and can kill a Bandit immediately, splitting the EXP between Noish and himself. He starts with an Iron Sword, so he isn't really doing anything awe-inspiring. He and Noish are probably going to be picking off any single-digit-HP Bandits left after Sigurd's enemy phase, assuming they don't charge West to try and beat up the Bandits taking off the Villages. They can do it, but still. Either way, Alec will be around... level 5?

In the Ch1 Arena, Alec could get Sigurd's Steel Sword. Sigurd really doesn't need it, since he'll kick just as much ass with an Iron Sword, even if his Silver Sword somehow breaks; he can always run into Gandolf's castle to repair it for the final stretch. With either sword, Lv 5 Alec can kill Gazack (Lv 1 Axefighter) and Crotor (level 4 Mage) and if given the Iron Lance from the Vendor, Weissman (Level 7 Lance Knight). Not so sure about Shark, though. Nevermind. The entirety of Ch1 involves killing Axe/Bow dudes, so he's going to go up a few levels. I'd say Level eight/nine.

There's around a third of Chapter 2 to get through before Beowulf shows up. Alec goes through the Arena, killing Zero (Level 5 Axefighter) and Mahatma (Level 8 Mage). Rowin's a maybe with the Iron Lance again, with the Swordfighter being a another "probably not". Then you go through Elliot's troops and conquer... that castle I can't remember. Alec's definitely at Level 9, maybe level 10. After that, everyone rides up and you spend 10000G to recruit Beowulf and his Steel Sword. A comparison at that point is, with Level 9 Noish as reference;

Base Beowulf: HP38/Str14.0/Mag0.0/Skl11.0/Spd11.0/Def10.0/Res0.0/Luk3.0
9 Noish: HP37.8/Str13.4/Mag0.3/Skl8.8/Spd9.2/Def10.4/Res0.3/Luk5.2
10 Alec: HP37.6/Str11.4/Mag0.4/Skl12.2/Spd12.4/Def9.4/Res0.4/Luk6.4

So, the three of them tie HP. Beowulf wins Strength. Loses Mag with a lol0% growth. He loses Skill to Alec, but beats Noish (and he's the only one who'd really like it). Alec wins Speed by one point, but Beo beats Noish again. Beowulf ties with Noish and beats Alec in defence, then loses Luck.

In the remainder of Ch2, Beowulf gets a few levels from the Knight brigades and going through the Arena (he's gonna be walking past at least two castles anyway and he can get a Javelin or something for Wiseman), so I'd presume two/three levels for Beo and two for Alec.

Growths-wise, they're pretty much identical. +10%HP/+5%Mag/-10%Luk isn't that different. Looking at promo gains, they're pretty similar. Assuming that either of them get to promotion;

20 Beowulf: HP46.8/Str19.4/Mag0.0/Skl24.4/Spd20.3/Def15.3/Res3.5/Luk5.2
20 Alec: HP44.6/Str16.4/Mag5.9/Skl19.2/Spd18.4/Def15.4/Res5.9/Luk9.4

Oh my. Beowulf beats Alec in HP, Str, Skl and Spd. Alec beats Beowulf in Mag (he's hardly going to be using a magic sword, since there's quite a few people who's rather have them as I recall), Res (only really relevant in Silesia) and Luck.

Enough of the stat comparisons; Beo's going to contribute more to the team after recruitment, but Alec gets a lead in regards to availability. Assuming that all of my levels were "reasonable" (pretty sure that's doubtful), they'll be pretty damn similar. If Alec's level is any lower, Beowulf starts good right from the start. I believe it depends on if you weigh Beowulf's superior durability (and unlike Noish, a lack of dependence on the Pursuit Ring) and stats over Alec's availability. They both have mounts, both have Pursuit, Beowulf has a superior skill (arguably) and similar levels when they meet up. They'd both like to use the Elite Ring to speed up their levelling, since otherwise they aren't reaching promotion until the end of Chapter 5, or something ridiculous like that.

I thank you for taking the time to read this. My apologies if it's simply a waste of your time.

Based on those numbers you provided, it looks like Beowulf's leads are rather minor. Does the slight offense/defense lead let him kill any additional enemies, or let him survive an extra hit from any common enemy types?

I'm thinking here that 2.5 chapters of availibility > minor stat leads.

First off, Beo's gets Charge. If that activates, he's obviously doing more damage then Alec is. In Ch2, base Beo's Charge activation (w/ Steel Sword) is 11-x+38/2 = y% with x being enemy AS. Going down the list...

All below calculations assume Steel Sword for Beowulf/Steel Sword for Alec. Base Beo/10 Alec is used. 21 atk for Alec/24 Atk for Beowulf.

In Amphony
- Swordarmour L14, 54/13/1/9/7/0/14/1, Iron Sword, 4 (4)
19 Attack, so Alec is 4HKO'd/8HKO's, but doubles. Beowulf is 5HKO'd/6HKO's and doubles, with a 26% Charge.
- Axearmour L14, 54/13/1/9/7/0/14/1. Iron Axe, -11 (3)
Forgot what the Weapon triangle bonus is, so. 27 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/8HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 3HKO'd/6HKO's, with a 41% Charge activate... I think (would a negative AS boost Charge's activation? If not, it's 30%)
- BowArmour L14, 54/13/1/9/7/0/14/1, Iron Bow, -1 (3)
lolbows. 23 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/8HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 3HKO'd (if he gains +2 in HP/+2 in Def/+1 in both, he's 4HKO'd)/6HKO's and 31% (or 30%).
- The Scottish Play L22, 62/16/2/12/11/0/18(+5)/5, Steel Lance, Javelin, Shield Ring, -1 (-7 at range)
Assuming we hit from 1-range. Don't know WTD stuff, sorry. 32 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/tinks and doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/62HKO's (pffffft), doubles with a 31% (or 30%) Charge chance.
- Freeknight L7, 37/9/0/8/8/0/8/0, Iron Sword, 5 (11)
Beowulf's gang~ 15 Attack. Alec is 7HKO'd/4HKO's (+1 in Str to 3HKO) and barely doubles. Beowulf is 8HKO'd/3HKO's and doubles with a 25% Charge activation.
- Beowulf L9, 38/14/0/11/11/3/10/0, Steel Sword, 8
24 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/4HKO's. Beowulf elopes with this dude.
- 1000 VOLTZ L20, 60/14/2/21/18/0/14/5, Steel Blade, Elite Ring, 12
30 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/9HKO's. Beowulf is 2HKO'd (but is 3HKO'd with +2 in HP or Def, or a +1 in both)/6HKO's. Doesn't Voltz have Charge or something? Forgot n.n

In McKeily

- Swordfighter L12, 42/10/1/13/13/0/8/1, Steel Sword, 10 (5)
20 attack. Alec is 4HKO'd/4HKO's. Beowulf is 4HKO'd/3HKO's with a 20% Charge activation rate.
- Bowfighter L10, 40/10/1/13/13/0/8/1, Iron Bow, 5 (2)
20 Attack. Alec is 4HKO'd/4HKO's (but it's a 3HKO with +1 Atk) and doubles. Beowulf is 4HKO'd (+2HP and +1Def/+1HP and +2HP/+3 to either is a 5HKO)/3HKO's (+2 Atk 2HKO's) with a 25% chance of Charge activation.
- Firemage L8, 34/0/12/8/8/0/1/7, , -4 (3)
20 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/2HKO's, doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/2HKO's, doubles with a 34% (or 30%) Charge activation.
- Bishop L18, 53/1/15/13/10/0/4/13, Thunder, Sleep, 3
Doesn't matter, he sleeps them both. 23 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/4HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/3HKO's, doubles with a 27% Charge activation.

I know there's more enemies left in the chapter, but here's most of Chapter 2. Beo can solo The Scottish Play. Beowulf beats Alec durability-wise against the Sword Armours and Free Knights and beats him attack-wise with the Sword Armours, Axe Armours, Bow Armours, Free Knights, Voltz (who probably kills him in the counter attack), the Swordfights, the Bowfighters and Clement. Not sure what their average levels would be come Chapter 3.

-edit-

In Augusty

Charge towards you after you conquer Anphony.
- Lanceknight L12, 42/10/1/9/9/0/9/1, Iron Lance, -3 (4)
22 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/4HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 4HKO'd/3HKO's, doubles and Charges with a 33% (or 30%) Charge activation.
- Captain DukeKnight L15, 55/16/1/11/11/0/12/4, Steel Lance, Javelin, -1 (-7 with Javelin)
32 Attack, assuming we're hitting him on the Player phase. Alec is 2HKO'd/7HKO's (6HKO's with +1 Str) and doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/5HKO's, doubles with a 31% (or 30%) Charge activation.

- Cavalier L12, 42/10/1/9/9/0/9/1, Iron Sword, 6 (4)
16 Attack. Alec is 6HKO'd/4HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 6HKO'd (needs a +1 to HP/Def to make it 7HKO'd)/4HKO's (needs a +1 to Str to 3HKO), needs a +1 to Spd to double with a 24% Charge activation.
- Captain Paladin L14, 54/13/6/13/13/0/13/6, Steel Sword, 10
23 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/7HKO's. Beowulf is 3HKO'd (needs a +1 to Def or a +2 to HP for a 4HKO'd)/5HKO's with a 20% chance to Charge.

Will finish later, gotta run.

Doesn't Beowulf have far more choice in what swords he can use due to rank? I'm pretty sure that Alex is quite limited in the swords he can use compared to Beowulf, unless my memory is failing me again...

Beo can use the Silver Sword and Blades. I believe that gives him access to a total of 6 weapons (2 Iron Blades, 2 Silver Swords, 1 Steel Blade, 1 Silver Blade) that Alec can't use, but these weapons are also wanted by Sigurd, Ayra, Holyn, Fury, and maybe Lachesis (Ch. 4 enemies are freaking fast), so he's not guaranteed a pwnsome sword.

Also, there are great swords that aren't A rank, such as Defense, Wing Clipper, Iron Cutter, and the mighty Hero Sword.

Alec has the bonus of Nihil, which means he's not getting one shotted by Zain and can actually do stuff against the Thracian Dragon Knights in Ch. 5. The Knight Killer definitely closes the offense gap vs. the Axe and Arch Knights in Ch. 5 (the only other Lance user in Ch. 5 who doesn't have a better weapon or fails even with it is Fury).

And considering Alec's availability advantage, I would have to question Beo > Alec, especially since Charge has the drawback of activating when Beo can't counter.

Paperblade wrote:Beo can use the Silver Sword and Blades. I believe that gives him access to a total of 6 weapons (2 Iron Blades, 2 Silver Swords, 1 Steel Blade, 1 Silver Blade) that Alec can't use, but these weapons are also wanted by Sigurd, Ayra, Holyn, Fury, and maybe Lachesis (Ch. 4 enemies are freaking fast), so he's not guaranteed a pwnsome sword.

Also, there are great swords that aren't A rank, such as Defense, Wing Clipper, Iron Cutter, and the mighty Hero Sword.

Alec has the bonus of Nihil, which means he's not getting one shotted by Zain and can actually do stuff against the Thracian Dragon Knights in Ch. 5. The Knight Killer definitely closes the offense gap vs. the Axe and Arch Knights in Ch. 5 (the only other Lance user in Ch. 5 who doesn't have a better weapon or fails even with it is Fury).

And considering Alec's availability advantage, I would have to question Beo > Alec, especially since Charge has the drawback of activating when Beo can't counter.

You raise a mighty fine point.

especially since Charge has the drawback of activating when Beo can't counter.

I'm 99% sure this can't happen in FE4. I remember hacking skills/stats onto people and testing it.

Mekkah wrote:

especially since Charge has the drawback of activating when Beo can't counter.

I'm 99% sure this can't happen in FE4. I remember hacking skills/stats onto people and testing it.

Which case, it can only serve to make his offense more noticeable. However, it would still make him less durable on enemy phase if he can't 2HKO, whenever it activates.

So in a way, does it really change much of his comparison?

If I'm recalling Charge right*, it lets him ORKO (assuming it activates) generic FreeKnights, McKeily Bowfighters, Clement, Augusuty LanceKnights (?) and Augusty SocialKnights (if he gets a +1 to his Str) without getting an additional counter. And that's just the ones I've done so far. He normally ORKO's FireMages, which Alec does as well. If he activates Charge twice (hey, it could happen. Hypothetically), he'll kill anything. Of course, he'll need to be healed immediately after activating Charge to kill things like the McKeily Armours, since he'll be OHKO'd by a lot of things immediately after.

*Which allows a turn of combat to go Player > Enemy > Player > Player > Enemy > Player, as opposed to Player > Enemy > Player. Sorry, my memory's on the fritz at the moment x_x

-edit-
Sigurd wants a new sword? He does fine against everything (ORKOing or leaving on single-digit HP) with his Silver Sword; he might want the second one in case you decide to have him solo an army in between capturing castles or something. He definitely doesn't need a new sword in Chapter 5, he'd rather run around hitting people with the Tyrfing; he doesn't even care about repairing it, he just wants it to have >=1 uses.

Ayra... well, she might want one. Probably the Hero Sword she gets in Ch3 to increase her chance of activating Meteor Sword, then being able to repair it for cheap.

Holyn... mm. He might want a Steel Blade so he can kill people more reliably when he activates Moonlight Sword.

Fury... yeah, I concede this point. She might not want to use a Silver Sword, since it will get lost during inheritance, but yeah. She almost certainly wants one so she can fly over the place and kill people without having to use the Hero Lance.

I don't see why Lachesis would really want a new sword over Beowulf. She can always resort to using a different weapon since she has As in everything except Light (if she's promoted by Ch4). If she's unpromoted, she's probably utilising her Staves to promote so it's not really needed.

I think the idea with Lachesis is that sometimes she needs to use a lighter weapon in order to double.

"Ch. 4 enemies are freaking fast", and since lances or thunder or something like that would weigh more than a silver sword or something similar, she may want to use a sword.

Lachesis can use one of the three strong bows (Silver, Hero, Killer) to OHKO Pegasus Knights, so those aren't an issue. Hell, she can get the unpromoted ones with Steel. Leaves us with the Wind Mages.

- Wind Mage L15, 41/1/11/10/13/0/2/9, Elwind, 11 (10)

Lachesis has 20-21 Spd at L20, and these Wind Mages only have 11 AS, so she can probably double these with any bow. Even if she can't, even an Iron Sword gives her 26 atk, and it only takes 23 atk to 2HKO them. Pretty much everything else is super slow, except the Swordfighter crew at the end.

- Bowfighter L22, 52/13/2/16/16/0/11/1, Killer Bow, 13 (2)

Takes 14 AS to double, and 37 atk to 2HKO. Hero Axe Lachesis can easily two shot this (38 atk at L20).

- Thunder Mage L22, 48/2/13/15/12/0/3/11, Elthunder, 5 (2)

Same but weaker.

- Swordfighter L22, 52/13/2/16/16/0/11/2, Hero Sword, 13 (2)
- Swordfighter L22, 52/13/2/16/16/0/11/2, Sleep Sword, 4 (2)

The latter are easy to double with anything, even a lance does the trick. The former needs exactly the same as the Bowfighter, but Hero Axe has WTD now. Hero Lance (37 atk) works.

- Priest L22, 48/2/13/12/12/0/3/13, Libro, 12 (1)

Not worth talking about.

Boss: Lamia ***
- Swordmaster L25, 65/19/2/22/22/0/14/5, Silver Blade, Life Ring, 16

Needs a Hero Sword or something to ORKO.

So all an extra sword would help her against is two Swordfighters and a boss, which she can close-to-kill with other things anyway. And she's obviously not fighting them on her own, so nearly-KOing is almost quite as good as KOing.

I honestly doubt that Lachesis can gain 18 levels in 1 and 3/4 chapters with C staves and 6 move, though, even if we give her the Elite Ring for all of her existence or something.

Return is C, so just by spamming that she can get 35 EXP every turn, 70 if Sylvia is near. She isn't short on money either thanks to the Knight Ring, Earth Sword and like 10k starting gold. She has to sell it for a turn or two in those chapters so that Ethlin can get people back home from Amphony and Madino though.

Mekkah wrote:Return is C, so just by spamming that she can get 35 EXP every turn, 70 if Sylvia is near.

And the only times that Return would actually be useful would be returning Sigurd after capturing Amphony, returning whomever wants to fight/be a part of the Cross Knight battle (like, huh, Lachesis herself?), and then maybe returning Sigurd after capturing Silvail. I guess you could say that returning some guys after capturing Thove would be useful, but that's already half-way through Chapter 4. Otherwise, she's just sitting back, returning Ardan, I guess, and it's not like she even has a monopoly over Return, either. Ethlin only has C staves, too.

I mean, 18 levels for a character who comes really underleveled with C staves, 6 movement, base stats that are the same, if not worse than Diadora's (Lachesis wins Speed because of lolaura, but 34 MT magic damage is still a whole hell of a lot of chip damage even if she doesn't double, and she has B staves)... I just can't see it happening.

I'm talking about Lachesis staff spamming uselessy at a castle, not actual in-chapter healing. She wouldn't be doing anything Ethlin can't during that time, so might as well self-improve.

Allan Aokage wrote:
-edit-
Sigurd wants a new sword? He does fine against everything (ORKOing or leaving on single-digit HP) with his Silver Sword; he might want the second one in case you decide to have him solo an army in between capturing castles or something. He definitely doesn't need a new sword in Chapter 5, he'd rather run around hitting people with the Tyrfing; he doesn't even care about repairing it, he just wants it to have >=1 uses.

The main issue here is inheritance. Sigurd wants to keep his high kill silver sword to pass down to his son, to help him kill easier.

Ayra... well, she might want one. Probably the Hero Sword she gets in Ch3 to increase her chance of activating Meteor Sword, then being able to repair it for cheap.

After you get her the hero sword, why would she ever want anything else?

Holyn... mm. He might want a Steel Blade so he can kill people more reliably when he activates Moonlight Sword.

Silver Claymore with Moonlight Strike...

Fury... yeah, I concede this point. She might not want to use a Silver Sword, since it will get lost during inheritance, but yeah. She almost certainly wants one so she can fly over the place and kill people without having to use the Hero Lance.

...Why WOULDN'T she be getting the hero lance? Fin won't be around forever, not like he'll be using it. Every other person who can use it can't fly, so it goes to her, end o' story. Now ask yourself, what's a more effective weapon, silver sword or brave lance?

I don't see why Lachesis would really want a new sword over Beowulf. She can always resort to using a different weapon since she has As in everything except Light (if she's promoted by Ch4). If she's unpromoted, she's probably utilising her Staves to promote so it's not really needed.

Before promotion, no sword makes her combat good. Post-promotion, she has everything else in the world to choose from. Why use the sword when you can use the claymore?

I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, Grandjackal. I'm talking about what Paperblade said about other people wanting the weapons, so;

@Sigurd - Good point with the high-kill Silver Sword. However, I assumed he's selling all his non-Silver Sword weapons to push his cash up in case he doesn't have 50000G somehow, or if he wants to give Celice some extra cash
@Ayra - That's what I'm saying.
@Holyn - When I say "X Blade", take it as me meaning "X Claymore", 'kay? Steel Claymore w/ Moonlight Strike (or Moonlight Sword, w/e) will ORKO pretty much anything it touches.
@Fury - Again, that's what I'm saying - it's definitely going to her.. I'm just pointing out that she might want to keep a sword handy in case she breaks the Hero Lance.
@Lachesis - ...claymores are swords. When I say "sword", I mean "everything that counts as a sword and functions via the Sword weapon rank." So when I say "Beo's desire for a new sword > Lachesis' desire for a new sword", I'm talking about every single sword in the game; Iron Sword, Iron Claymore/Blade, Hero Sword etc. Lachesis' desire for a new sword is mitigated because whereas she can equip any weapon available (with the sole exception of Aura), Beo is stuck with swords (iirc). So while Lachesis can just use the Hero Axe when Lex hits level 30 if she can't get a certain sword, Beo has no such options (as I recall).

Allan Aokage wrote:I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, Grandjackal. I'm talking about what Paperblade said about other people wanting the weapons, so;

I'm just trying to clear things up, I'm not really one way or the other on this.

@Sigurd - Good point with the high-kill Silver Sword. However, I assumed he's selling all his non-Silver Sword weapons to push his cash up in case he doesn't have 50000G somehow, or if he wants to give Celice some extra cash

He's selling his weapons, cause he doesn't need it, and those weapons include a steel sword and an iron lance. Pretty sure that's what's equipping Alec in chapter 1. Sort of goes against Beowulf with that in mind.

@Holyn - When I say "X Blade", take it as me meaning "X Claymore", 'kay? Steel Claymore w/ Moonlight Strike (or Moonlight Sword, w/e) will ORKO pretty much anything it touches.

That's actually a pretty good point.

@Fury - Again, that's what I'm saying - it's definitely going to her.. I'm just pointing out that she might want to keep a sword handy in case she breaks the Hero Lance.

I have yet to have a weapon break in battle. Unless for some reason you didn't repair a weapon after going to the arena, this should never be a problem for anyone.

Ever.

@Lachesis - ...claymores are swords. When I say "sword", I mean "everything that counts as a sword and functions via the Sword weapon rank." So when I say "Beo's desire for a new sword > Lachesis' desire for a new sword", I'm talking about every single sword in the game; Iron Sword, Iron Claymore/Blade, Hero Sword etc. Lachesis' desire for a new sword is mitigated because whereas she can equip any weapon available (with the sole exception of Aura), Beo is stuck with swords (iirc). So while Lachesis can just use the Hero Axe when Lex hits level 30 if she can't get a certain sword, Beo has no such options (as I recall).

That's my point, she wouldn't really want a silver sword, so Beo getting one is a bit more justified. She wouldn't care for one because she has basically every other weapon to choose from.

Grandjackal wrote:

Allan Aokage wrote:
@Lachesis - ...claymores are swords. When I say "sword", I mean "everything that counts as a sword and functions via the Sword weapon rank." So when I say "Beo's desire for a new sword > Lachesis' desire for a new sword", I'm talking about every single sword in the game; Iron Sword, Iron Claymore/Blade, Hero Sword etc. Lachesis' desire for a new sword is mitigated because whereas she can equip any weapon available (with the sole exception of Aura), Beo is stuck with swords (iirc). So while Lachesis can just use the Hero Axe when Lex hits level 30 if she can't get a certain sword, Beo has no such options (as I recall).

That's my point, she wouldn't really want a silver sword, so Beo getting one is a bit more justified. She wouldn't care for one because she has basically every other weapon to choose from.

Okay. But the point Paperblade was making is that there are only 6 A swords, and Beo might not be able to get one. It's not about Lachesis wanting a silver sword, it's about her potentially wanting any of the 6 A swords.

Now, he only listed 5 units, but keep in mind that iron claymore/blade is only 12 mt compared to steel sword's 10 mt anyway, so I'm not sure how big a deal it would be. Also, there are a decent number of C or B rank swords with 12 mt anyway. So it's really 5 units + Beo competing for 4 A rank swords, because it isn't all that relevant if Beo gets an iron claymore/blade.


Now, Mekkah has made a case for her getting by without one of the A rank swords, though it does rely on her promoting, since otherwise the only weapons she can get are C, B, and A rank swords.

Narga_Rocks wrote:
Now, Mekkah has made a case for her getting by without one of the A rank swords, though it does rely on her promoting, since otherwise the only weapons she can get are C, B, and A rank swords.

...Yes, and how shiny is her combat unpromoted compared to Beowulf?

Grandjackal wrote:

Narga_Rocks wrote:
Now, Mekkah has made a case for her getting by without one of the A rank swords, though it does rely on her promoting, since otherwise the only weapons she can get are C, B, and A rank swords.

...Yes, and how shiny is her combat unpromoted compared to Beowulf?

Don't know, don't care. I'm not the one that brought her up.

Either way, I don't see there being a problem with him getting at least some relevent form of A rank sword that isn't the iron claymore.