ChaosNinji wrote:Should be enough for what, though? You said that this would make her comparable to the likes of Lex!Sword Kids, which it doesn't, as they have nearly 70 avoid with terrain, and superior HP anyway (25 Lackhe has 60 HP as opposed to 20 Altenna's 55).
First off, Lex!Lakche is already above Altenna. Oh noez, Altenna loses HP to a unit above her!
Also, why do you always have Altenna so underleveled? The Ch. 9 Arena alone makes her that level, and Ch. 10 brings up her up even higher. Oh, and she has a convo that gives her +3HP.
I also like how you brought up a unit that both is at a high level thanks to Elite and has a high HP growth due to dual holy bloods.
"lolflying" and "lolcanto" aren't helping her out that much, sorry to say. The first part of the Chapter has a few Sleep Staff and Fenrir Dark Mages hiding around, so Altenna will be having a pretty tough time somehow avoiding being attacked by all Dark Mages and Snipers (which is, uh, the entire thing except for two Forrests) and helping out the team.
Oh man, our entire team must be screwed then, since only Ares and maybe like Celice or Holsety!Sety with the Barrier Ring have enough Res to not get sleeped, and Dark Mages are like 2-3HKOing most folks with like 50% hit rates.
The ones near Miletos are even worse. There are more of them, there are patches of ground with no forest which helps them move, and they've got Fenrir and Sleep Staff Dark Mages surrounding them on all sides.
You mean all 2 of them, one of which is chilling like 3 spaces away from Julius and Ishtar so if that guy can attack you, chances are you're dead anyway?
That's not the point. The point is that Altenna the doing awful against them. Also, there are 3 Mage Knights with them, which just makes things worse.
If enemies are dying before they even have a chance to attack, do we really care about their offense? Also, again, lolcanto
It doesn't matter if it affects 90% of the team. What matters is that it affects Altenna along with them. How is she supposed to be useful if she's asleep, again? Is she a Snorlax?
We have 1 Restore Staff. There are quite a few Sleep Staff mages. Altenna's pretty low on the Restore priority list, because of how she's pretty weak to about, say, everything around Miletos and almsot everything near the base castle.
"Drop Altenna because Altenna can be Sleeped and pwned by dozens of mages, even though the units she's supposed to drop below can also be sleeped and pwned by dozens of mages, but doesn't fare nearly as well when there aren't Sleep staff dozens of siege tomes around, ie anywhere that's not Edda."
Righto.
When all of the enemies are grouped so very closely together and when they have higher move than Altenna (oh shit roads), it's evident that taking that 200% damage from those 2 enemies inhibits your ability to fight those 6 enemies a lot more than you think.
When they prevent Altenna from getting close to the Forrest Knights and Duke Knights, yeah.
Merging these 2 points because they're about the same thing.
They aren't "grouped so very close together", since for the northern Mage Knights to be able to attack you, you'd have to be within like foot unit range of one of the Forest/Duke Knights already. The difference between other scrubs and Altenna is that Altenna can bait a Bow Knight (takes about 29 damage), a Mage Knight (takes about 20 damage, leaving her with like 15-20HP), and then kill a Duke Knight and potentially 2 Forest Knights. What would AzelNanna or Hawk or Johan do? Suck and die. Heck, there's still a good chance some dude above her would die from that kind of luring since even though they're taking like half damage from the Bow Knight they're taking like 15+ from the Forest Knights and the Duke Knight, even if they do win Avoid.
You don't have to tank all 10 of those fuckers to win durability, since the only units who can do that are like, Celice, Shanan, and Holsety lad, and even then I'm not sure if they'd survive since the boss has like 50% hit on Shanan and Holsety lad. Too bad Altenna's inferior to Top Tier units though.
Being able to move over forests really doesn't matter when you can't go even attack the most common enemy on the enemy phase without taking a huge hit to your offense (Altenna with a Javelin is pretty damn bad. Huge hit loss, huge atk loss, loss of 10 defense...) and you can't be within the attack range of the 2 most common types of enemies without fearing for your life.
We're not having Altenna solo them, the point is to kill one, and then if it's actually dangerous, canto behind other units or out of attack range of enough so that she doesn't die.
To do what, save Palmark? sup dark mages
Oh right, instead of having Altenna, who OHKOs them at base level, go after them, we're going to send Fee by herself, who has 1 less Move and is 4HKO'd (as opposed to 3HKO'd), and has to take a counter. BTW, that 4HKO is with Claude as the daddy. With Levin or Noish, she's just as bad as Altenna since Altenna has like a 15HP lead.
So instead of having Altenna bait them to the ocean so that only 1 can attack and have her slowly pick them off while Fee heals, we're going to go have a panic attack and shout "OH SHIT MAGES" and let Palmark die, thus fucking over Celice's offense and durability in the epilogue.
Hey, doesn't help.
Good thing we're not tiering units on how they perform if they're the only unit on the map!
No, the things that would make Altenna incapable of using her 9 move flying with Canto to one round Dark Mages would be the other Dark Mages, whether they have Fenrir, a Sleep Staff, or just a Jormung.
Which, again, is a concern for *any other unit*.
You mean the one that Altenna has, like, 67 hit on and doesn't double? She's not doing too great, either.
LOLWUT, Altenna having 67 hit on Robert? You best be joking.
68 Hit from Skill - 67 Avoid = 1 Hit, +70 from the Gaebolg = 71 + 20 from WTA makes 91.
Oh, and if he's on Roads, she has 100% hit. Pretty awesome, ya? Boyce has even less Avoid 'cause he's a scrub with no leadership.
Yes, Altenna is one of the best characters to fight Ridale with.
Yay, a boss that's surrounded by 5 enemies that 2RKO Altenna.
First off, the Bow Knights 3HKO and the Mage Knights 4HKO (meaning she's doing better than Johan, lolololol). Second, there's only 2 of each, so that's 4 total.
Yeah, let's compare Johan to the enemies after he's been attacked by the boss and be completely misleading...!
Fine, since apparently your durability after being attacked by 3 consecutive enemies only matters if they use magic or bows.
If Johan tries to do the same stunt I had Altenna do (which she survives even if she gets hit by every attack), he'd survive with like 9HP, only he wouldn't kill anything and need healing more since he'll die to the next attack.
In actuality, Johan is 3RKOed by the Mage Knights and Great Knights, 4RKO'd by the Duke Knights, 7RKOd by the Bow Knights, and there aren't even any Forrest Knights with Ridale, so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
I wasn't talking about Ridale, I was talking about Robert. The first hint should be that Ridale has 38 attack, not 33, and has Critical, not Charge.
Although I do have to wtfrofl at you just assuming Johan is Level 30 halfway through Ch. 10. Holy shit bro, rusrs?
Anyway, Ridale 100% ORKOs scrub friend Johan, and the rest of the chumps Altenna is supposed to drop below have to rely on their Avoid vs. his 162 Hit.
Again, the fact that she has a bow weakness means that her usefulness is limited.
Yet the fact that everyone she's supposed to drop below is being 2-3HKO'd by EVERYTHING doesn't limit their usefulness?
Silver Sword!Altenna with max strength misses a ORKO on Great Knights, Duke Knights, Bow Knights...
Pretty much everything that you just said that Altenna was "great against".
Why the fuck would I use the Silver Sword against slow ass shit like a Great Knight when I can use the Gae Bolg? The point of the sword is to use it to kill shit she CAN'T DOUBLE with the Gae Bolg, not degenerate axe users.
Against the 3 enemies mentioned above, yes. Considering how those Dark Mages and Mage Knights have 1-2 range, though...
Oh, you mean the enemies that are killing her just as easily as anyone else.
Right.
Leaf, the guy with an A in every weapon type except for Dark and Light magic, wants the Hero Axe, as opposed to a weapon like Tornado, that has 1-2 range, hits res, and only weighs him down by 2.
Yeah, Leaf, who has an astounding 9 Magic at Level 30, wants Tornado. Hey, here's a list of enemies that Leaf 2HKOs with Tornado
See that? That was an awfully long list. He has 29 fucking attack with it, even if enemies had 0 Res he couldn't kill with that shit.
How about the list of stuff he 4HKOs with the Hero Axe
JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING
See the difference?
He wants Hero because Hero makes you a sexy, awesome, killing machine, but the Hero Bow is probably taken by the kid who looks like Adean's lovechild with Lex, the Hero Sword is wanted by like half the freaking cast so Leaf getting his grubby little paws on it is unlikely, and then Fee and Fin and Oifaye also want the Hero Lance because it's pretty sexy, whereas the only competition for the Hero Axe are Hannilol and Johan, both of whom kill approximately jack shit with it because their offense blows.
That 1-2 range certainly doesn't help more than ORKOing Duke Knights or something, right? There certainly aren't a shitload of Dark Mages around, right?
rusrs? Leaf, who has godawful Magic, wants a weapon that attacks Res so that he has 1-2 range against Dark Mages, who have like 60HP and 16 Res?
Leaf like 4HKOs the weakest Dark Mages with Tornado, and those are guys sitting up on cliffs going LOLSLEEP LOLFENRIR so his ability to counter at 1-2 range doesn't even matter vs. them so he might as well just pull out an Iron Bow or Hand Axe or some equally crappy physical weapon and do the jobber better than lolnado. The rest? Oh lawds. Have fun 5-6HKOing. He needs like 2 Crits are 2 Continues and a crit or something else equally retarded to kill mages with Tornado. It's hilarious.
The Hero Axe is, like, the 3rd weapon down on Leaf's list of weapons to want.
Yeah, #1 is the Hero Sword and #2 is the other Hero Sword. Too bad we have approximately 15 sword users in the 24 man party that is Gen 2.
Guess who else is 2RKOing.
Go on, guess.
I'm waiting.
C'mon, it's easy.
I don't know why you've gotta bring Patty into this.
Anyway, loltenna doubles Great, Duke, Bow, and Mage Knights all day long, leaving just asshole Forest Knights, but Johan's missing them half the time so meh.
Yes, her leads against the boss matter.
Johan's leads against Bow Knights matter just as much, if not more, because there are 3 Bow Knights to just Ridale.
Brohan is being ORKO'd by the boss and like 6RKO'd by the Bow Knights.
Altenna is being like 16RKO'd by the boss since he hits 4 times and like 3HKO'd by the Bow Knights.
Which means that in our magical land where it's impossible to bait 2-3 enemies and then have your team of GODLY MOUNTED UNITS AND WTFHOLYWEAPON USERS swarm in and kill the other 10, loltenna can kill a Bow Knight and then survive. Brohan is pretty much fucked. As is everyone between him and Loltenna since they're roflmages and thus have rofldefense.
Altenna's leads against Great Knights and Duke Knights are overkill (seriously, getting 4RKO'd vs. getting 55RKO'd, or whatever insane number Altenna is is not that huge of a deal).
They tie against Mage Knights.
Oh, so getting 4RKO'd is fine when it's Brohan, but if it's Altenna it's such a hindrance that it drops her a tier and a half.
So, Altenna is winning but the leads are not as significant as you think.
Pretty sure
Staves and 1-2 range mean absolutely nothing, guys.
Haha, oh boy, I was waiting for this one.
1-2 range doesn't matter since Canto doesn't matter, comprende? See, if Altenna's canto isn't enough to put her out of safety despite it moving her to like 1-4 range, how can you expect 1-2 range to save you?
As for staves
https://2img.net/h/i58.photobucket.com/albums/g247/CableLrry/whatajoke-1.jpgIn case you don't understand. Staff utility is significantly hurt when I already have one (Rana/Mana), two (Hawk/Sety), three (Nanna/Janne), four (Leaf), five (Tinny/Linda), six (Fee), seven (Sharlow/Corplol) staff users and a single unit with Reserve + Restore covers nearly all the healing needs in the Epilogue. More offense is more useful than more healing. Plus Julia, but she's not around in the chapters we're discussing. Note that that's a third of our cast that can use staves.
How well characters preform against Ridale is how we should tier them! 8D
It'd be a sight better than tiering characters based off of how many attacks it takes for a Bow Knight to kill them.
Yeah, let's skip Miletos and Chalphy altogether! Those places where there are a bunch of Mages and Hero Bow Armors and... Meteor Alvis... and... Snipers... and... Dark... Mages...
Wait a second...!
Yeah bro, Altenna's totally gonna be fighting at Chalphy when she's the only person who can save Palmark (unless you're suggesting that Fee's same number of rounds to death and inferior offense and inability to be heal herself without taking the 10 user Earth Sword is gonna work out here).
Miletos? Johan gets doubled by Snipers and Forrests 'cause he's slow as fuck and does just as bad vs. everything else. Everyone gets sleeped.
I've never seem move anywhere but straight north, so they won't ever be near the clearing with the church and stuff. That gives them like, 1-2 extra move. And again, if Altenna is in danger here, the rest of the units below her are doing just as bad, since 1-2 range puts them closer than Altenna would be with Canto.
Hey, that's great.
Altenna's being ORKO'd.
62-39 = 23
[72/23] = 4
Looks more like a 2RKO to me, champ.
Although I guess we can't Canto behind our dozens of melee sword users anymore.
So, Johan has a 60% chance to die and Altenna has a 100% chance to die.
Yeah...
Cantocantocantocanto.
Comprende? I hate repeating myself in the same post like this, since as I go on and on I feel like you're just not getting the point even though it's the same post.
But it's really freaking annoying that you can't even be arsed to do the basic math and just go "Oh Mage 2HKO", "Oh Bow 2HKO", "Oh shit Hero ORKO". No, sorry, she's not instantly dying no matter what you think. If she was the game might actually be difficult since it'd mean the rest of our team is sucking balls too, but she's not. And on top of that, she's killing shit. Brohan can't tank, Brohan can't kill. Altenna kills shit and cantos to safety. Brohan can't. Hawk can't. Sety can't.
Why, again, would they attack Johan with a Silver Lance at Melee? Actually, why the hell would it matter?
Good point, why would they? They use Tron, now Brohan is being 3HKO'd. And Altenna is still winning since she's IN THE MOUNTAINS.
Which is good for Johan.
Duh.
Being even comparable to Altenna in Chapter 9-Endgame only is pretty much proof that Johan > Altenna.
Except they're not "even comparable".
I'm giving Brohan the luxury of the Hero Axe and overleveling him for the sake of his durability, and he still loses offense vs. every physical enemy ever and can't tank any realistic situation better than Altenna.
Altenna makes saving Palmark so much easier it's not even funny, which makes the Epilogue MUCH easier since Celice will be pwning and gives us an even better anti-magic tank than Ares.
Johan blows in Ch. 6 because there's no Hero Axe so he's got like the worst offense on our team.
In Ch. 7 he gets raped by Dark Mages that he can't dodge since he has lolaxes, and continues to get raped by armors since the rest of our team is using their pwnage inherited weapons and Iron Cutters while Johan is stuck being a shitty Lex. Ch. 8 and 9 are more of the same.
Brohan's nice for taking out generic mages, but when Altenna shows up he's in deep shit since Leaf promotes and wants to steal his Hero Axe, and parading around proclaiming that her durability is half as good as what it really is is just a bad joke, especially when you continue and continue to ignore that her offense is completely and utterly superior to his.
A chokepoint matters against these guys... how? It's a bunch of Snipers (!), Sages (!!), and Mercenaries (meh), and, of course, the bosses.
I like how you put (!!) next to Sages when Altenna OHKOs them. OH NOEZ, THE SAGES 2HKO.
Being comparable, you mean. He is losing, admittedly, but the margin of win for Altenna is nowhere near large enough to make up for Johan existing in Chapters 6, 7, and 8.
Except that Brohan
You said "most magic users". I was talking about the most common magic users by far, Dark Mages, which she does not one shot.
Number of Dark Mages in Epilogue: 19
Number of Dark Mages she's going to fight: 13 (lol@Altenna running from down by Chalphy after recruiting Arion all the way up to Velthomer)
Number she OHKOs: 5
Number that actually counter her: 4 (half of those she doesn't OHKO don't have Jormungand or Hell)
Shit, 4 Dark Mages she's mildly concerned about (Oh noes, she's taking counters from a Dark Mage when the only other enemies around are Dark Mages with Silence) in the Epilogue.
WELL WHAT ABOUT CHAPTER 10
So here's another list
Number of Dark Mages: 33
Number she's actually going to fight: 30 (scrubs at Rados don't count, although if you actually care she one shots anyway)
Number that can counter: 19
Number she OHKOs: 11
Leaving 8, for a total of 12.
Yeah, considering how much you're hyping magic users, those 12 Dark Mages leave me quaking in my boots.
or characters like Hawk and Sety, who don't even have an availability advantage?
But they also have staves and actual Res, and avoid, and...
And get 2 shotted by Bow Knights, as well as just about everything else, and 1-2 range doesn't matter since canto doesn't.
Staves mean less because so many people can use them, etc. etc.
When both are around, yes. However, from Chapters late 6-early 9, Johan has some of the best durability on your team, as well as Hero Axe monopoly, a horse, and the possibility of the Pursuit Ring when/if nobody wants it for some easy ORKOs.
So you're saying that Altenna > Hawk > Johan > Altenna
Johan doesn't have monopoly on anything but suckitude.
Haha, Johan with Pursuit Ring. Basically, it improves his offense vs. Lance Armors, Axe Armors, and Mountain Thieves. Meaning it basically amounts to Cool Story Bro, as both Patty and Leaf both want it before they promote, JamkaLester wants it, LevinTinny wants it. Plus most Epilogue and Ch. 10 enemies are too fast for Brohan to double with the Hero Axe anyway.
Altenna... performs similarly to Johan for chapters 9-Endgame, edging out an existent, but small, win.
This is my argument. Everything else in your long rant about how Altenna had similarly durability to everyone on the team against magic users proved my point.
Your argument is that since Altenna shitstomps Johan in offense and has better durability, Johan wins because he exists for 3 chapters prior, despite being just as bad then as he is now?
Better res, around longer, etc., etc.
NoishFee and LevinFee take 1 more hit to die than Altenna against Dark Mages.
LevinFee and ClaudeFee have far inferior offense.
Well, if you would stop bringing up completely irrelevant characters to the discussion, you would note that Altenna's flaws are worse than Johan's.
Irrelevant? How is this irrelevant? Your OP vaguely said "Altenna down" and mentioned Johan, meaning you were suggesting Altenna should drop to below Johan. I was asking how far below Johan you wanted her to drop (if you wanted Johan up above Altenna you would have said Johan up).
The fact that you've completely ignored how terrible Johan's offense is isn't helping you.
A Hel Bishop hit and a Forrest attack in the forest is a ORKO on anyone, for instance, Altenna included.
Oh, sorry, so it matters at Miletos since cantoing away from the 5 move enemies in the forest with a flyer is difficult, since the rest she's either not fighting (lolvelthomer, lolrados) or OHKOs.
Basically, it comes down to this.
Altenna ORKOs with a weapon that only she can use and some other random fodder weapon that not a whole lot of people want, since hey, they have better.
Johan 2RKOs with a weapon that a couple other people also want, and without it he's like 3RKOing or some shit.
Altenna has slightly better durability due to more HP/Avoid/Def/Res, save against Scorpio's guys, but thanks to forests + leadership Brohan's offense there is a joke.
Johan is around for 3 chapters before Altenna joins.
Altenna's offense is at least twice as good. This alone makes Altenna better if we go by the "If you have half the availability you should be twice as good" rule. Having double the offense and double the durability would make her 4 times as good. Now, Brohan has a bit over twice as much availability. However, Altenna also has the utility of making rescuing Palmark not a luckfest with Fee trying to dodge shit and healing with the Earth Sword when absolutely necessary. This is huge, since it's like 500 free EXP plus the Tyfring for Celice.
