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Altenna down

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1 Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:51 pm

I had some wall of text typed up, and then, of course, someone closes the window while I'm eating.

Anyway, it was just saying how she's 2RKO'd by half of the enemies in Chapter 9 (by the time she joins), an overwhelming majority of the enemies in Chapter 10, and then an overwhelming majority of the enemies in the endgame. The only time she really gets to flex her durability is in the arena, and against most of Musar's group, the Dragon Riders from Thracia, Ridale's group in Chapter 10, and Brian's group in Endgame.

She can't even ORKO without a critical or a continue activation.

How is this High Tier when someone like Johan has been around for around 3~ (half of 6 and 9 are about one) extra chapters, and has a Hero Axe monopoly, allowing him to 2RKO (just like Altenna), while having superior durability to quite a few members of the team?

A dragon doesn't help much compared to a horse when there's no rescue feature.

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2 Re: Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:08 pm

Mekkah

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"Half the enemies in Ch9" is misleading if not plain wrong. She doesn't do well against ballistae, or the Dark Mage boss, or the like three bow knights in Musar's army, or Musar himself...but against the huge ass hordes of dragons, she does fine. And she only has to visit the arena to promote and get Pursuit by class, so basically from there she ORKOs (if not OHKOs) everything that's slow enough.

Ch10 and Final, she does have enormous issues with all these magic users around. Still, my personal instinct is that she is not material for any tier with "Mid" in the name. It may be wrong, but I think bottom of High is plenty of a drop for her.

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3 Re: Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:17 pm

Mekkah wrote:"Half the enemies in Ch9" is misleading if not plain wrong. She doesn't do well against ballistae, or the Dark Mage boss, or the like three bow knights in Musar's army, or Musar himself...but against the huge ass hordes of dragons, she does fine.

It wasn't meant to be taken literally, though I suppose that it was misleading. My apologies.

I don't believe that her doing great against the hordes of dragons matters that much, frankly. The three hordes head in 3 different directions, and, even with a mount, she's going to be helping take down only one of those groups, the ending of another one if extremely lucky. She doesn't want anything to do with Arion's group, which has DKs, which are significantly tougher than Riders, and 10? have Sleep Sword, plus Arion himself is there.

This is her best chapter and she isn't doing great.


And she only has to visit the arena to promote and get Pursuit by class, so basically from there she ORKOs (if not OHKOs) everything that's slow enough.

Admittedly, I did forget that she gets Pursuit as a class skill upon promotion.

I don't believe that her 6 AS upon promotion is enough to double Jormung Dark Mages, though.


Ch10 and Final, she does have enormous issues with all these magic users around. Still, my personal instinct is that she is not material for any tier with "Mid" in the name. It may be wrong, but I think bottom of High is plenty of a drop for her.

Even above someone like Sety, who has similar availability, but is doing much better than her during this time period + staves? A mount doesn't make you a god/goddess automatically. The 2nd Gen. is much more forgiving to unmounted units than the 1st Gen.


Edit: Ah, 6 AS does double DMs. I should note that Chapter 10 is chock-full of Sleep Staffs, though, which will always put Altenna to sleep.

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4 Re: Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:24 pm

I for one certainly can't see her in low [Mekkah seemed to be implying that] when you look at the other doofuses there. I agree she should go down, I just don't know where to yet.

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5 Re: Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:25 pm

He was actually saying that she should go to the bottom of High, but no lower.

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6 Re: Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:34 pm

Well, I completely misread that.

also stop changing your avatar every two seconds :/

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7 Re: Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:36 pm

Happens to me all the time.


Also, I'm indecisive, sue me.

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8 Re: Altenna down on Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:04 pm

I dunno, being a flying tank is sort of a big deal I would find. I don't really see Nanna being better, despite her healing. I suppose Altenna could just top upper mid instead?

Altenna for super duper top tier nao plzkthnxbai

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9 Re: Altenna down on Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:55 pm

Altenna doesn't really have "Res issues" in Final since she gets +5 Res from a convo near the end of Ch. 10, which puts her ahead of a lot of other kids (such as the Briggid's, Ayra's, possibly Lach's?)

Being 3HKO'd by Bow users (which is still on par with what some other units can claim) is a small price to pay for being invincible vs. anything with a Sword, Axe, or Lance. FFS, Brian is 4HKOing her and he has 57 attack, and she 2RKOs him back.

She one shots most magic users anyway (Sages/High Priests/Bishops) because she has attack on par with freaking FE10 Lions, and the ones that she doesn't (Dark Mages) are still owning half your team anyway because Jormungand is insane, and even then she still gets some of them (such as the dudes with Sleep at Freege).

The only people with durability better than that are in Top Tier.

Oh yeah, and she has like 27% Continue and 30% Crit, so she has a ~50% chance of killing pretty much killing anything that isn't Brian or Julius before it can even counter. Although, she is kinda slow (Dragonmaster Speed cap sucks and Gae Bolg is freaking heavy), so she won't double Sword or Bow user. So she one rounds everything that doesn't have a Sword or a Bow, and those guys she has a 50% chance to kill anyway... also Alvis, but screw him.

However, she does have pretty serious availability issues. I think bottom of High is fine.

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10 Re: Altenna down on Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:35 pm

Grandjackal wrote:I dunno, being a flying tank is sort of a big deal I would find. I don't really see Nanna being better, despite her healing. I suppose Altenna could just top upper mid instead?

Most of the benefits of flying vs. the benefits of a mount (going over terrain, reaching enemies quick, impassible terrain like mountains being accessible, rescuing) are not available/useless in this game, though, and she's not really a tank when her omgwtfdefense is only used against, like, 3 groups of enemies from Chapter 9 on.


Altenna doesn't really have "Res issues" in Final since she gets +5 Res from a convo near the end of Ch. 10, which puts her ahead of a lot of other kids (such as the Briggid's, Ayra's, possibly Lach's?)

Avoid and the terrain that boosts it to levels where it is very reliable. Altenna's? Not so much.


Being 3HKO'd by Bow users (which is still on par with what some other units can claim)

Level 20 Altenna is ORKO'd by the bow users at the start of Chapter 10, not 3HKO'd. Damage is multiplied before Defense is taken into account.


is a small price to pay for being invincible vs. anything with a Sword, Axe, or Lance. FFS, Brian is 4HKOing her and he has 57 attack, and she 2RKOs him back.

Enemies with Swords, Lances, or Axes between Chapter 9 and the Endgame:

3 Great Knights with Musar
3 Duke Knights with Musar
3 Forrest Knights with Musar
An unholy amount of Dragon Riders and Dragon Knights (though some of those Dragon Knights have Sleep Swords, which are bad)

2 Forrests in the forest at the start of Chapter 10
3 Great Knights with Ridale
3 Duke Knights with Ridale
Ridale
3 Lance Armors at Chalphy
A Baron by Chalphy
2 Great Knights by Chalphy
3 Duke Knights by Chalphy

And then basically Brian's group for the Endgame.

The only enemies that aren't near any type of Bow, Magic, or Sleep Staff wielding enemies are Brian and his cavalry, and the Dragon Riders in Chapter 9.

Chapter 10 is comprised almost entirely of Sleep Staff and Fenrir-wielding Dark Mages and Snipers. Seriously, it's like Altenna's worst nightmare.


She one shots most magic users anyway (Sages/High Priests/Bishops)

She one rounds them when she promotes, but she does not one shot them.


and the ones that she doesn't (Dark Mages) are still owning half your team anyway because Jormungand is insane, and even then she still gets some of them (such as the dudes with Sleep at Freege).

The only people with durability better than that are in Top Tier.

Her durability is on par with others against these extremely common enemies. However, characters below her have been helping for up to 3 more chapters. How can she possibly be above them?


Oh yeah, and she has like 27% Continue and 30% Crit, so she has a ~50% chance of killing pretty much killing anything that isn't Brian or Julius before it can even counter. Although, she is kinda slow (Dragonmaster Speed cap sucks and Gae Bolg is freaking heavy), so she won't double Sword or Bow user. So she one rounds everything that doesn't have a Sword or a Bow, and those guys she has a 50% chance to kill anyway... also Alvis, but screw him.

So, the things that she actually needs to kill (like Snipers and Bow Knights), she only has a 50% chance of killing without dying. Again, High Tier? Uh, no.


Again, I pose this question. How does this mediocre performance put her above Johan, who has slightly worse offense and comparable defense (much better against Bows, worse against Axes and Lances, but still pretty damn durable against them), but has been helping for almost 3 whole chapters?

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11 Re: Altenna down on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:17 am

Avoid and the terrain that boosts it to levels where it is very reliable. Altenna's? Not so much.

Magic users tend to appear in groups, where Altenna can equip a sword to boost her Avoid to high to about 50-55 or so, which considering her superior HP and comparable Res, should be enough.

So, the things that she actually needs to kill (like Snipers and Bow Knights), she only has a 50% chance of killing without dying. Again, High Tier? Uh, no.

Snipers in Ch. 10 are in lolforests, meaning that with lolflying and lolcanto it's a joke to avoid the tiny numbers of them. The Bow Knights in Ch. 10 are just ran over by your team anyway.

Oh, and she's not being one rounded by bow users. The ones in Ch. 9 would need 41 attack to one round her at base with the Gae Bolg, which is pretty impressive since that's actually more than Scorpio has.

The only enemies that aren't near any type of Bow, Magic, or Sleep Staff wielding enemies are Brian and his cavalry, and the Dragon Riders in Chapter 9.

Oh lawds, you actually mentioned the Sleep Staff? You know that thing is gonna hit like 90% of your team, right? Basically only Celice, Ares, and Claude's kids are safe from that thing, and Celice isn't even safe from it in Ch. 10 because he doesn't have the Tyrfing until the end of it.

Anyway, Bow users are pretty scary, although I like how when there's 2 bow users and then like 6 of the units she takes 0 damage from the 6 units apparently aren't worth mentioning because oh shit bow users, since apparently taking like 200% damage (remember, she shitstomps everyone else in Defense) as other people are from 2 units and taking none from the other 6 is worse than just taking 100% from all 8. It's especially funny when you're shitting bricks about Ch. 10, which is like sup forests sup ocean hey let's abuse some flying canto.

I guess those 2 Snipers at Miletos (one of which is chillin' next to Julius and Ishtar so if he's in attack range, chances are you're dead no matter who you are) that have like 4 move thanks to Forests make Altenna completely incapable of using her 9 move flying with Canto to one round Dark Mages (which she can do with, like, a Steel Lance, maybe like a Steel Blade or Silver Sword if you want to double and kill the ones with Staves).

And those 2 Bow Knights with Robert? Completely overshadow the 3 Forest Knights (that have 35% Continue and 28 attack, so glhf with your mages) and the Duke Knights. Even the boss, who has 21AS and Pursuit and Charge with a Hero Sword(ie even some of your sword users are being doubled, nice offense thar Ares) and 33 attack. Who cares, I mean, Johan's got comparable Defense to Altenna, right? 39 vs. 25, that's pretty close, right? It's not like Johan is being 2RKO'd without Charge (which has a 47% activation rate if Johan misses both times, which has a 76% chance of happening if Johan is at max level (although this is discounting possible leadership). So that's a 35% chance of Johan dying in one round of combat (the boss has 100 Hit even with full Leadership/Charisma, since Johan's Avoid is shit). You said a 50% chance of Altenna one rounding is pretty bad. What about Johan having a 35% chance to die from a single enemy?

But shit, that's only one enemy, right? Yeah, that is right. It IS only one enemy, which means even if the boss fails (and does 32 damage in the process, leaving Johan at 28HP), the mages and dukes are still there to 2HKO, the Bow Knights are still there to 4HKO, the Forest Knights are still there to 10HKO (although they do enough to make the Mage/Duke Knights and Bow Knights OHKO and 3HKO respectively). But shit, Altenna has a Bow weakness, so she automatically loses durability here, right?

Of course. And then we consider that Altenna is one rounding all but the boss with any Sword on player phase and still has a 50% chance to kill on counters with the Gae Bolg. What's Johan doing? Oh, 2RKOing with a weapon that Leaf also wants? That's nice, Johan. Good job. So you're losing offense, and your durability is inferior since the boss is probably the least likely to die. You're the freaking greatest.

But shit, what about units above Johan? Well, chums, let's take a look.

The boss just outright kills Hawk, the Bow Knights 2HKO him as they 2HKO Altenna, and everything else is 2HKOing him as well (Forest Knights 3HKO but in 2 attacks they have like a 45% chance of having gotten at least 1 Continue so have fun with that). But he wins against the 2 Mage Knights. Shit, clearly Hawk's winning because he doesn't have the bow weakness, which totally makes up for Altenna's 21HP and 27 Defense lead. Shit, and you can't exactly beat ORKOing, which is what Altenna does with something cool like the Steel Blade.

But that's only one point in the chapter, right? Right?

Maybe Johan will fare better against Scorpio's dudes. I mean, lots of bow users, surely Altenna will lose. Oh fuck.

But it's forests. Lots of forests.

Canto. Flying. Well shit, that didn't work out so well, now did it? Since they have Hero Bows, Jobro here is being 5RKO'd (and the boss is like Robert 2.0, since he's not even taking a counter from axechump, so enjoy your 60% chance to die thanks to our friend Charge.

Hilda's lads? Ah crap, chokepoint city, and they counter with Silver at melee. Jojo is once again losing offense and at best tying durability.

Ishtar's friends? What's that? A chokepoint again? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. BUT WAIT. FALCONKNIGHTS WITH MAGIC SWORDS. Except, wait a tick. Your whole team is getting owned by these sluts. Damn. Not again!

Looks like Brohan is losing the instant Altenna shows up, folks.

She one rounds them when she promotes, but she does not one shot them.

She one shots them all day, friend.

Sages require 62 attack to one round. She has that at base.
Bishops and the weaker High Priests have 67. That's what she has at her cap, which she rams because she starts like 2 away from it with a 65% growth.
That leaves the 6 Level 30 High Priests at Edda. Although anyone with Res worse than Altenna is in the running to get swarmed by siege tomes, and those who aren't gonna muster up 50 magical attack to 2HKO anyway. Which leaves like, Fee (who needs Silver or Hero Lance) and Celice and Ares.

Her durability is on par with others against these extremely common enemies. However, characters below her have been helping for up to 3 more chapters. How can she possibly be above them?

Who's she above that's been around notably longer AND is helpful? Do you mean units like Leaf and Patty, who are a burden due to their awful offense, or characters like Hawk and Sety, who don't even have an availability advantage? Maybe you're referring to Julia, who disappears for 2 chapters and has shit move. Or Tinny, who's worse than Julia but at least is around longer? Maybe Faval, who has at best half a chapter of availability and is locked to Bows? Perhaps Johan, who has inferior offense, inferior concrete durability, and inferior avoid? Oh, or maybe Fee, who has even WORSE HP/Def and inferior attack and also shares the Bow weakness?

What good is it to name a character's flaws when everyone below them is even more flawed?

Edit: When I say "0 damage" I mean 1, since they're basically the same thing considering her massive HP pool and I'm pretty sure it's not gonna make a difference in KO numbers.

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12 Re: Altenna down on Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:46 pm

Paperblade wrote:
Magic users tend to appear in groups, where Altenna can equip a sword to boost her Avoid to high to about 50-55 or so, which considering her superior HP and comparable Res, should be enough.

Should be enough for what, though? You said that this would make her comparable to the likes of Lex!Sword Kids, which it doesn't, as they have nearly 70 avoid with terrain, and superior HP anyway (25 Lackhe has 60 HP as opposed to 20 Altenna's 55).

And don't say that Lackhe's level is outrageously large because she has Elite, she's one rounding nearly everything, and the 2nd Gen. is more forgiving towards unmounted units than the 1st Gen.


Snipers in Ch. 10 are in lolforests, meaning that with lolflying and lolcanto it's a joke to avoid the tiny numbers of them.

"lolflying" and "lolcanto" aren't helping her out that much, sorry to say. The first part of the Chapter has a few Sleep Staff and Fenrir Dark Mages hiding around, so Altenna will be having a pretty tough time somehow avoiding being attacked by all Dark Mages and Snipers (which is, uh, the entire thing except for two Forrests) and helping out the team.

The ones near Miletos are even worse. There are more of them, there are patches of ground with no forest which helps them move, and they've got Fenrir and Sleep Staff Dark Mages surrounding them on all sides.


The Bow Knights in Ch. 10 are just ran over by your team anyway.

That's not the point. The point is that Altenna the doing awful against them. Also, there are 3 Mage Knights with them, which just makes things worse.


Oh, and she's not being one rounded by bow users. The ones in Ch. 9 would need 41 attack to one round her at base with the Gae Bolg, which is pretty impressive since that's actually more than Scorpio has.

I was mistaken. I thought that the critical co-efficient was 3, not 2.


Oh lawds, you actually mentioned the Sleep Staff? You know that thing is gonna hit like 90% of your team, right? Basically only Celice, Ares, and Claude's kids are safe from that thing, and Celice isn't even safe from it in Ch. 10 because he doesn't have the Tyrfing until the end of it.

It doesn't matter if it affects 90% of the team. What matters is that it affects Altenna along with them. How is she supposed to be useful if she's asleep, again? Is she a Snorlax?

We have 1 Restore Staff. There are quite a few Sleep Staff mages. Altenna's pretty low on the Restore priority list, because of how she's pretty weak to about, say, everything around Miletos and almsot everything near the base castle.


Anyway, Bow users are pretty scary, although I like how when there's 2 bow users and then like 6 of the units she takes 0 damage from the 6 units apparently aren't worth mentioning because oh shit bow users, since apparently taking like 200% damage (remember, she shitstomps everyone else in Defense) as other people are from 2 units and taking none from the other 6 is worse than just taking 100% from all 8.

When all of the enemies are grouped so very closely together and when they have higher move than Altenna (oh shit roads), it's evident that taking that 200% damage from those 2 enemies inhibits your ability to fight those 6 enemies a lot more than you think.


It's especially funny when you're shitting bricks about Ch. 10, which is like sup forests

Being able to move over forests really doesn't matter when you can't go even attack the most common enemy on the enemy phase without taking a huge hit to your offense (Altenna with a Javelin is pretty damn bad. Huge hit loss, huge atk loss, loss of 10 defense...) and you can't be within the attack range of the 2 most common types of enemies without fearing for your life.


sup ocean

To do what, save Palmark? sup dark mages


hey let's abuse some flying canto.

Hey, doesn't help.


I guess those 2 Snipers at Miletos (one of which is chillin' next to Julius and Ishtar so if he's in attack range, chances are you're dead no matter who you are) that have like 4 move thanks to Forests make Altenna completely incapable of using her 9 move flying with Canto to one round Dark Mages (which she can do with, like, a Steel Lance, maybe like a Steel Blade or Silver Sword if you want to double and kill the ones with Staves).

No, the things that would make Altenna incapable of using her 9 move flying with Canto to one round Dark Mages would be the other Dark Mages, whether they have Fenrir, a Sleep Staff, or just a Jormung.


And those 2 Bow Knights with Robert? Completely overshadow the 3 Forest Knights (that have 35% Continue and 28 attack, so glhf with your mages) and the Duke Knights.

When they prevent Altenna from getting close to the Forrest Knights and Duke Knights, yeah.


Even the boss, who has 21AS and Pursuit and Charge with a Hero Sword(ie even some of your sword users are being doubled, nice offense thar Ares) and 33 attack.

You mean the one that Altenna has, like, 67 hit on and doesn't double? She's not doing too great, either.


Who cares, I mean, Johan's got comparable Defense to Altenna, right? 39 vs. 25, that's pretty close, right? It's not like Johan is being 2RKO'd without Charge (which has a 47% activation rate if Johan misses both times, which has a 76% chance of happening if Johan is at max level (although this is discounting possible leadership). So that's a 35% chance of Johan dying in one round of combat (the boss has 100 Hit even with full Leadership/Charisma, since Johan's Avoid is shit). You said a 50% chance of Altenna one rounding is pretty bad. What about Johan having a 35% chance to die from a single enemy?

Yes, Altenna is one of the best characters to fight Ridale with.

Yay, a boss that's surrounded by 5 enemies that 2RKO Altenna.


But shit, that's only one enemy, right? Yeah, that is right. It IS only one enemy, which means even if the boss fails (and does 32 damage in the process, leaving Johan at 28HP), the mages and dukes are still there to 2HKO, the Bow Knights are still there to 4HKO, the Forest Knights are still there to 10HKO (although they do enough to make the Mage/Duke Knights and Bow Knights OHKO and 3HKO respectively).

Yeah, let's compare Johan to the enemies after he's been attacked by the boss and be completely misleading...!

In actuality, Johan is 3RKOed by the Mage Knights and Great Knights, 4RKO'd by the Duke Knights, 7RKOd by the Bow Knights, and there aren't even any Forrest Knights with Ridale, so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.


But shit, Altenna has a Bow weakness, so she automatically loses durability here, right?

Again, the fact that she has a bow weakness means that her usefulness is limited.


Of course. And then we consider that Altenna is one rounding all but the boss with any Sword on player phase

Silver Sword!Altenna with max strength misses a ORKO on Great Knights, Duke Knights, Bow Knights...

Pretty much everything that you just said that Altenna was "great against".


still has a 50% chance to kill on counters with the Gae Bolg.

Against the 3 enemies mentioned above, yes. Considering how those Dark Mages and Mage Knights have 1-2 range, though...


with a weapon that Leaf also wants?

Right.

Leaf, the guy with an A in every weapon type except for Dark and Light magic, wants the Hero Axe, as opposed to a weapon like Tornado, that has 1-2 range, hits res, and only weighs him down by 2.

That 1-2 range certainly doesn't help more than ORKOing Duke Knights or something, right? There certainly aren't a shitload of Dark Mages around, right?

The Hero Axe is, like, the 3rd weapon down on Leaf's list of weapons to want.


What's Johan doing? Oh, 2RKOing. That's nice, Johan. Good job. So you're losing offense

Guess who else is 2RKOing.

Go on, guess.

I'm waiting.

C'mon, it's easy.


and your durability is inferior since the boss is probably the least likely to die.

Yes, her leads against the boss matter.
Johan's leads against Bow Knights matter just as much, if not more, because there are 3 Bow Knights to just Ridale.
Altenna's leads against Great Knights and Duke Knights are overkill (seriously, getting 4RKO'd vs. getting 55RKO'd, or whatever insane number Altenna is is not that huge of a deal).
They tie against Mage Knights.

So, Altenna is winning but the leads are not as significant as you think.


But shit, what about units above Johan? Well, chums, let's take a look.

The boss just outright kills Hawk, the Bow Knights 2HKO him as they 2HKO Altenna, and everything else is 2HKOing him as well (Forest Knights 3HKO but in 2 attacks they have like a 45% chance of having gotten at least 1 Continue so have fun with that). But he wins against the 2 Mage Knights. Shit, clearly Hawk's winning because he doesn't have the bow weakness, which totally makes up for Altenna's 21HP and 27 Defense lead. Shit, and you can't exactly beat ORKOing, which is what Altenna does with something cool like the Steel Blade.

Staves and 1-2 range mean absolutely nothing, guys.

How well characters preform against Ridale is how we should tier them! 8D


But that's only one point in the chapter, right? Right?

Yes, it is.


Maybe Johan will fare better against Scorpio's dudes.

Yeah, let's skip Miletos and Chalphy altogether! Those places where there are a bunch of Mages and Hero Bow Armors and... Meteor Alvis... and... Snipers... and... Dark... Mages...

Wait a second...!


I mean, lots of bow users, surely Altenna will lose. Oh fuck.

But it's forests. Lots of forests.

Canto. Flying. Well shit, that didn't work out so well, now did it?

Those decent gaps between the forests that allow the Bow Knights to move freely mean nothing, right?

Altenna needs to move close to the enemies, attack, and then canto away. Does she have the room for this? Not once that big battalion gets to that clearing.


Since they have Hero Bows, Jobro here is being 5RKO'd

Hey, that's great.

Altenna's being ORKO'd.


(and the boss is like Robert 2.0, since he's not even taking a counter from axechump, so enjoy your 60% chance to die thanks to our friend Charge.

So, Johan has a 60% chance to die and Altenna has a 100% chance to die.

Yeah...


Hilda's lads? Ah crap, chokepoint city, and they counter with Silver at melee.

Why, again, would they attack Johan with a Silver Lance at Melee? Actually, why the hell would it matter?


Jojo is once again losing offense and at best tying durability.

Which is good for Johan.
Duh.

Being even comparable to Altenna in Chapter 9-Endgame only is pretty much proof that Johan > Altenna.


Ishtar's friends? What's that? A chokepoint again? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. BUT WAIT. FALCONKNIGHTS WITH MAGIC SWORDS. Except, wait a tick. Your whole team is getting owned by these sluts. Damn. Not again!

A chokepoint matters against these guys... how? It's a bunch of Snipers (!), Sages (!!), and Mercenaries (meh), and, of course, the bosses.


Looks like Brohan is losing the instant Altenna shows up, folks.

Being comparable, you mean. He is losing, admittedly, but the margin of win for Altenna is nowhere near large enough to make up for Johan existing in Chapters 6, 7, and 8.


She one shots them all day, friend.

Sages require 62 attack to one round. She has that at base.
Bishops and the weaker High Priests have 67. That's what she has at her cap, which she rams because she starts like 2 away from it with a 65% growth.
That leaves the 6 Level 30 High Priests at Edda. Although anyone with Res worse than Altenna is in the running to get swarmed by siege tomes, and those who aren't gonna muster up 50 magical attack to 2HKO anyway. Which leaves like, Fee (who needs Silver or Hero Lance) and Celice and Ares.

You said "most magic users". I was talking about the most common magic users by far, Dark Mages, which she does not one shot.


Do you mean units like Leaf and Patty, who are a burden due to their awful offense

Um, no. I'm not saying that we should drop Altenna to Low Mid, dude.


or characters like Hawk and Sety, who don't even have an availability advantage?

But they also have staves and actual Res, and avoid, and...


Maybe you're referring to Julia, who disappears for 2 chapters and has shit move.

I think Julia is overrated, anyway. >_>


Or Tinny, who's worse than Julia but at least is around longer?

They actually have similar/the same availability.


Maybe Faval, who has at best half a chapter of availability and is locked to Bows?

No.


Perhaps Johan, who has inferior offense, inferior concrete durability, and inferior avoid?

When both are around, yes. However, from Chapters late 6-early 9, Johan has some of the best durability on your team, as well as Hero Axe monopoly, a horse, and the possibility of the Pursuit Ring when/if nobody wants it for some easy ORKOs.

Altenna... performs similarly to Johan for chapters 9-Endgame, edging out an existent, but small, win.

This is my argument. Everything else in your long rant about how Altenna had similarly durability to everyone on the team against magic users proved my point.


Oh, or maybe Fee, who has even WORSE HP/Def and inferior attack and also shares the Bow weakness?

Better res, around longer, etc., etc.

Wasn't arguing her above, though.


What good is it to name a character's flaws when everyone below them is even more flawed?

Well, if you would stop bringing up completely irrelevant characters to the discussion, you would note that Altenna's flaws are worse than Johan's.


Edit: When I say "0 damage" I mean 1, since they're basically the same thing considering her massive HP pool and I'm pretty sure it's not gonna make a difference in KO numbers.

Hel Bishops.

A Hel Bishop hit and a Forrest attack in the forest is a ORKO on anyone, for instance, Altenna included.



Last edited by ChaosNinji on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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13 Re: Altenna down on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:05 pm

I think Julia is overrated, anyway. >_>

Well...I don't want to take Paperblade's comparision to a T since that's overgeneralizing things, but...if lolAvailability is Tinny's only counter to being worse than Julia [And this is one chapter anyway since Tinny doesn't exist for one chapter that Julia does] then I don't see how being better in exchange for not being present for one chapter equates to a TWO tier gap.

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14 Re: Altenna down on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:59 pm

bblader1 wrote:
Well...I don't want to take Paperblade's comparision to a T since that's overgeneralizing things, but...if lolAvailability is Tinny's only counter to being worse than Julia [And this is one chapter anyway since Tinny doesn't exist for one chapter that Julia does] then I don't see how being better in exchange for not being present for one chapter equates to a TWO tier gap.

Well, Julia's combat is a lot better to start, not just better. Also, auto-staves, and it's more like 2 chapters, since Tinny joins really late in Chapter 7.

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15 Re: Altenna down on Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:17 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:Should be enough for what, though? You said that this would make her comparable to the likes of Lex!Sword Kids, which it doesn't, as they have nearly 70 avoid with terrain, and superior HP anyway (25 Lackhe has 60 HP as opposed to 20 Altenna's 55).

First off, Lex!Lakche is already above Altenna. Oh noez, Altenna loses HP to a unit above her!

Also, why do you always have Altenna so underleveled? The Ch. 9 Arena alone makes her that level, and Ch. 10 brings up her up even higher. Oh, and she has a convo that gives her +3HP.

I also like how you brought up a unit that both is at a high level thanks to Elite and has a high HP growth due to dual holy bloods.

"lolflying" and "lolcanto" aren't helping her out that much, sorry to say. The first part of the Chapter has a few Sleep Staff and Fenrir Dark Mages hiding around, so Altenna will be having a pretty tough time somehow avoiding being attacked by all Dark Mages and Snipers (which is, uh, the entire thing except for two Forrests) and helping out the team.

Oh man, our entire team must be screwed then, since only Ares and maybe like Celice or Holsety!Sety with the Barrier Ring have enough Res to not get sleeped, and Dark Mages are like 2-3HKOing most folks with like 50% hit rates.

The ones near Miletos are even worse. There are more of them, there are patches of ground with no forest which helps them move, and they've got Fenrir and Sleep Staff Dark Mages surrounding them on all sides.

You mean all 2 of them, one of which is chilling like 3 spaces away from Julius and Ishtar so if that guy can attack you, chances are you're dead anyway?

That's not the point. The point is that Altenna the doing awful against them. Also, there are 3 Mage Knights with them, which just makes things worse.

If enemies are dying before they even have a chance to attack, do we really care about their offense? Also, again, lolcanto

It doesn't matter if it affects 90% of the team. What matters is that it affects Altenna along with them. How is she supposed to be useful if she's asleep, again? Is she a Snorlax?

We have 1 Restore Staff. There are quite a few Sleep Staff mages. Altenna's pretty low on the Restore priority list, because of how she's pretty weak to about, say, everything around Miletos and almsot everything near the base castle.

"Drop Altenna because Altenna can be Sleeped and pwned by dozens of mages, even though the units she's supposed to drop below can also be sleeped and pwned by dozens of mages, but doesn't fare nearly as well when there aren't Sleep staff dozens of siege tomes around, ie anywhere that's not Edda."

Righto.

When all of the enemies are grouped so very closely together and when they have higher move than Altenna (oh shit roads), it's evident that taking that 200% damage from those 2 enemies inhibits your ability to fight those 6 enemies a lot more than you think.

When they prevent Altenna from getting close to the Forrest Knights and Duke Knights, yeah.

Merging these 2 points because they're about the same thing.

They aren't "grouped so very close together", since for the northern Mage Knights to be able to attack you, you'd have to be within like foot unit range of one of the Forest/Duke Knights already. The difference between other scrubs and Altenna is that Altenna can bait a Bow Knight (takes about 29 damage), a Mage Knight (takes about 20 damage, leaving her with like 15-20HP), and then kill a Duke Knight and potentially 2 Forest Knights. What would AzelNanna or Hawk or Johan do? Suck and die. Heck, there's still a good chance some dude above her would die from that kind of luring since even though they're taking like half damage from the Bow Knight they're taking like 15+ from the Forest Knights and the Duke Knight, even if they do win Avoid.

You don't have to tank all 10 of those fuckers to win durability, since the only units who can do that are like, Celice, Shanan, and Holsety lad, and even then I'm not sure if they'd survive since the boss has like 50% hit on Shanan and Holsety lad. Too bad Altenna's inferior to Top Tier units though.

Being able to move over forests really doesn't matter when you can't go even attack the most common enemy on the enemy phase without taking a huge hit to your offense (Altenna with a Javelin is pretty damn bad. Huge hit loss, huge atk loss, loss of 10 defense...) and you can't be within the attack range of the 2 most common types of enemies without fearing for your life.

We're not having Altenna solo them, the point is to kill one, and then if it's actually dangerous, canto behind other units or out of attack range of enough so that she doesn't die.

To do what, save Palmark? sup dark mages

Oh right, instead of having Altenna, who OHKOs them at base level, go after them, we're going to send Fee by herself, who has 1 less Move and is 4HKO'd (as opposed to 3HKO'd), and has to take a counter. BTW, that 4HKO is with Claude as the daddy. With Levin or Noish, she's just as bad as Altenna since Altenna has like a 15HP lead.

So instead of having Altenna bait them to the ocean so that only 1 can attack and have her slowly pick them off while Fee heals, we're going to go have a panic attack and shout "OH SHIT MAGES" and let Palmark die, thus fucking over Celice's offense and durability in the epilogue.

Hey, doesn't help.

Good thing we're not tiering units on how they perform if they're the only unit on the map!

No, the things that would make Altenna incapable of using her 9 move flying with Canto to one round Dark Mages would be the other Dark Mages, whether they have Fenrir, a Sleep Staff, or just a Jormung.

Which, again, is a concern for *any other unit*.

You mean the one that Altenna has, like, 67 hit on and doesn't double? She's not doing too great, either.

LOLWUT, Altenna having 67 hit on Robert? You best be joking.

68 Hit from Skill - 67 Avoid = 1 Hit, +70 from the Gaebolg = 71 + 20 from WTA makes 91.

Oh, and if he's on Roads, she has 100% hit. Pretty awesome, ya? Boyce has even less Avoid 'cause he's a scrub with no leadership.

Yes, Altenna is one of the best characters to fight Ridale with.

Yay, a boss that's surrounded by 5 enemies that 2RKO Altenna.

First off, the Bow Knights 3HKO and the Mage Knights 4HKO (meaning she's doing better than Johan, lolololol). Second, there's only 2 of each, so that's 4 total.

Yeah, let's compare Johan to the enemies after he's been attacked by the boss and be completely misleading...!

Fine, since apparently your durability after being attacked by 3 consecutive enemies only matters if they use magic or bows.

If Johan tries to do the same stunt I had Altenna do (which she survives even if she gets hit by every attack), he'd survive with like 9HP, only he wouldn't kill anything and need healing more since he'll die to the next attack.

In actuality, Johan is 3RKOed by the Mage Knights and Great Knights, 4RKO'd by the Duke Knights, 7RKOd by the Bow Knights, and there aren't even any Forrest Knights with Ridale, so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

I wasn't talking about Ridale, I was talking about Robert. The first hint should be that Ridale has 38 attack, not 33, and has Critical, not Charge.

Although I do have to wtfrofl at you just assuming Johan is Level 30 halfway through Ch. 10. Holy shit bro, rusrs?

Anyway, Ridale 100% ORKOs scrub friend Johan, and the rest of the chumps Altenna is supposed to drop below have to rely on their Avoid vs. his 162 Hit.

Again, the fact that she has a bow weakness means that her usefulness is limited.

Yet the fact that everyone she's supposed to drop below is being 2-3HKO'd by EVERYTHING doesn't limit their usefulness?

Silver Sword!Altenna with max strength misses a ORKO on Great Knights, Duke Knights, Bow Knights...

Pretty much everything that you just said that Altenna was "great against".

Why the fuck would I use the Silver Sword against slow ass shit like a Great Knight when I can use the Gae Bolg? The point of the sword is to use it to kill shit she CAN'T DOUBLE with the Gae Bolg, not degenerate axe users.

Against the 3 enemies mentioned above, yes. Considering how those Dark Mages and Mage Knights have 1-2 range, though...

Oh, you mean the enemies that are killing her just as easily as anyone else.

Right.

Leaf, the guy with an A in every weapon type except for Dark and Light magic, wants the Hero Axe, as opposed to a weapon like Tornado, that has 1-2 range, hits res, and only weighs him down by 2.

Yeah, Leaf, who has an astounding 9 Magic at Level 30, wants Tornado. Hey, here's a list of enemies that Leaf 2HKOs with Tornado

See that? That was an awfully long list. He has 29 fucking attack with it, even if enemies had 0 Res he couldn't kill with that shit.

How about the list of stuff he 4HKOs with the Hero Axe

JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING

See the difference?

He wants Hero because Hero makes you a sexy, awesome, killing machine, but the Hero Bow is probably taken by the kid who looks like Adean's lovechild with Lex, the Hero Sword is wanted by like half the freaking cast so Leaf getting his grubby little paws on it is unlikely, and then Fee and Fin and Oifaye also want the Hero Lance because it's pretty sexy, whereas the only competition for the Hero Axe are Hannilol and Johan, both of whom kill approximately jack shit with it because their offense blows.

That 1-2 range certainly doesn't help more than ORKOing Duke Knights or something, right? There certainly aren't a shitload of Dark Mages around, right?

rusrs? Leaf, who has godawful Magic, wants a weapon that attacks Res so that he has 1-2 range against Dark Mages, who have like 60HP and 16 Res?

Leaf like 4HKOs the weakest Dark Mages with Tornado, and those are guys sitting up on cliffs going LOLSLEEP LOLFENRIR so his ability to counter at 1-2 range doesn't even matter vs. them so he might as well just pull out an Iron Bow or Hand Axe or some equally crappy physical weapon and do the jobber better than lolnado. The rest? Oh lawds. Have fun 5-6HKOing. He needs like 2 Crits are 2 Continues and a crit or something else equally retarded to kill mages with Tornado. It's hilarious.

The Hero Axe is, like, the 3rd weapon down on Leaf's list of weapons to want.

Yeah, #1 is the Hero Sword and #2 is the other Hero Sword. Too bad we have approximately 15 sword users in the 24 man party that is Gen 2.

Guess who else is 2RKOing.

Go on, guess.

I'm waiting.

C'mon, it's easy.

I don't know why you've gotta bring Patty into this.

Anyway, loltenna doubles Great, Duke, Bow, and Mage Knights all day long, leaving just asshole Forest Knights, but Johan's missing them half the time so meh.

Yes, her leads against the boss matter.
Johan's leads against Bow Knights matter just as much, if not more, because there are 3 Bow Knights to just Ridale.

Brohan is being ORKO'd by the boss and like 6RKO'd by the Bow Knights.
Altenna is being like 16RKO'd by the boss since he hits 4 times and like 3HKO'd by the Bow Knights.

Which means that in our magical land where it's impossible to bait 2-3 enemies and then have your team of GODLY MOUNTED UNITS AND WTFHOLYWEAPON USERS swarm in and kill the other 10, loltenna can kill a Bow Knight and then survive. Brohan is pretty much fucked. As is everyone between him and Loltenna since they're roflmages and thus have rofldefense.

Altenna's leads against Great Knights and Duke Knights are overkill (seriously, getting 4RKO'd vs. getting 55RKO'd, or whatever insane number Altenna is is not that huge of a deal).
They tie against Mage Knights.

Oh, so getting 4RKO'd is fine when it's Brohan, but if it's Altenna it's such a hindrance that it drops her a tier and a half.

So, Altenna is winning but the leads are not as significant as you think.

Pretty sure

Staves and 1-2 range mean absolutely nothing, guys.

Haha, oh boy, I was waiting for this one.

1-2 range doesn't matter since Canto doesn't matter, comprende? See, if Altenna's canto isn't enough to put her out of safety despite it moving her to like 1-4 range, how can you expect 1-2 range to save you?

As for staves

https://2img.net/h/i58.photobucket.com/albums/g247/CableLrry/whatajoke-1.jpg

In case you don't understand. Staff utility is significantly hurt when I already have one (Rana/Mana), two (Hawk/Sety), three (Nanna/Janne), four (Leaf), five (Tinny/Linda), six (Fee), seven (Sharlow/Corplol) staff users and a single unit with Reserve + Restore covers nearly all the healing needs in the Epilogue. More offense is more useful than more healing. Plus Julia, but she's not around in the chapters we're discussing. Note that that's a third of our cast that can use staves.

How well characters preform against Ridale is how we should tier them! 8D

It'd be a sight better than tiering characters based off of how many attacks it takes for a Bow Knight to kill them.

Yeah, let's skip Miletos and Chalphy altogether! Those places where there are a bunch of Mages and Hero Bow Armors and... Meteor Alvis... and... Snipers... and... Dark... Mages...

Wait a second...!

Yeah bro, Altenna's totally gonna be fighting at Chalphy when she's the only person who can save Palmark (unless you're suggesting that Fee's same number of rounds to death and inferior offense and inability to be heal herself without taking the 10 user Earth Sword is gonna work out here).

Miletos? Johan gets doubled by Snipers and Forrests 'cause he's slow as fuck and does just as bad vs. everything else. Everyone gets sleeped.

Those decent gaps between the forests that allow the Bow Knights to move freely mean nothing, right?

Altenna needs to move close to the enemies, attack, and then canto away. Does she have the room for this? Not once that big battalion gets to that clearing.

I've never seem move anywhere but straight north, so they won't ever be near the clearing with the church and stuff. That gives them like, 1-2 extra move. And again, if Altenna is in danger here, the rest of the units below her are doing just as bad, since 1-2 range puts them closer than Altenna would be with Canto.

Hey, that's great.

Altenna's being ORKO'd.

62-39 = 23

[72/23] = 4

Looks more like a 2RKO to me, champ.

Although I guess we can't Canto behind our dozens of melee sword users anymore.

So, Johan has a 60% chance to die and Altenna has a 100% chance to die.

Yeah...

Cantocantocantocanto.

Comprende? I hate repeating myself in the same post like this, since as I go on and on I feel like you're just not getting the point even though it's the same post.

But it's really freaking annoying that you can't even be arsed to do the basic math and just go "Oh Mage 2HKO", "Oh Bow 2HKO", "Oh shit Hero ORKO". No, sorry, she's not instantly dying no matter what you think. If she was the game might actually be difficult since it'd mean the rest of our team is sucking balls too, but she's not. And on top of that, she's killing shit. Brohan can't tank, Brohan can't kill. Altenna kills shit and cantos to safety. Brohan can't. Hawk can't. Sety can't.

Why, again, would they attack Johan with a Silver Lance at Melee? Actually, why the hell would it matter?

Good point, why would they? They use Tron, now Brohan is being 3HKO'd. And Altenna is still winning since she's IN THE MOUNTAINS.

Which is good for Johan.
Duh.

Being even comparable to Altenna in Chapter 9-Endgame only is pretty much proof that Johan > Altenna.

Except they're not "even comparable".

I'm giving Brohan the luxury of the Hero Axe and overleveling him for the sake of his durability, and he still loses offense vs. every physical enemy ever and can't tank any realistic situation better than Altenna.

Altenna makes saving Palmark so much easier it's not even funny, which makes the Epilogue MUCH easier since Celice will be pwning and gives us an even better anti-magic tank than Ares.

Johan blows in Ch. 6 because there's no Hero Axe so he's got like the worst offense on our team.
In Ch. 7 he gets raped by Dark Mages that he can't dodge since he has lolaxes, and continues to get raped by armors since the rest of our team is using their pwnage inherited weapons and Iron Cutters while Johan is stuck being a shitty Lex. Ch. 8 and 9 are more of the same.

Brohan's nice for taking out generic mages, but when Altenna shows up he's in deep shit since Leaf promotes and wants to steal his Hero Axe, and parading around proclaiming that her durability is half as good as what it really is is just a bad joke, especially when you continue and continue to ignore that her offense is completely and utterly superior to his.

A chokepoint matters against these guys... how? It's a bunch of Snipers (!), Sages (!!), and Mercenaries (meh), and, of course, the bosses.

I like how you put (!!) next to Sages when Altenna OHKOs them. OH NOEZ, THE SAGES 2HKO.

Being comparable, you mean. He is losing, admittedly, but the margin of win for Altenna is nowhere near large enough to make up for Johan existing in Chapters 6, 7, and 8.

Except that Brohan

You said "most magic users". I was talking about the most common magic users by far, Dark Mages, which she does not one shot.

Number of Dark Mages in Epilogue: 19
Number of Dark Mages she's going to fight: 13 (lol@Altenna running from down by Chalphy after recruiting Arion all the way up to Velthomer)
Number she OHKOs: 5
Number that actually counter her: 4 (half of those she doesn't OHKO don't have Jormungand or Hell)

Shit, 4 Dark Mages she's mildly concerned about (Oh noes, she's taking counters from a Dark Mage when the only other enemies around are Dark Mages with Silence) in the Epilogue.

WELL WHAT ABOUT CHAPTER 10

So here's another list

Number of Dark Mages: 33
Number she's actually going to fight: 30 (scrubs at Rados don't count, although if you actually care she one shots anyway)
Number that can counter: 19
Number she OHKOs: 11

Leaving 8, for a total of 12.

Yeah, considering how much you're hyping magic users, those 12 Dark Mages leave me quaking in my boots.


or characters like Hawk and Sety, who don't even have an availability advantage?

But they also have staves and actual Res, and avoid, and...

And get 2 shotted by Bow Knights, as well as just about everything else, and 1-2 range doesn't matter since canto doesn't.

Staves mean less because so many people can use them, etc. etc.

When both are around, yes. However, from Chapters late 6-early 9, Johan has some of the best durability on your team, as well as Hero Axe monopoly, a horse, and the possibility of the Pursuit Ring when/if nobody wants it for some easy ORKOs.

So you're saying that Altenna > Hawk > Johan > Altenna

Johan doesn't have monopoly on anything but suckitude.

Haha, Johan with Pursuit Ring. Basically, it improves his offense vs. Lance Armors, Axe Armors, and Mountain Thieves. Meaning it basically amounts to Cool Story Bro, as both Patty and Leaf both want it before they promote, JamkaLester wants it, LevinTinny wants it. Plus most Epilogue and Ch. 10 enemies are too fast for Brohan to double with the Hero Axe anyway.

Altenna... performs similarly to Johan for chapters 9-Endgame, edging out an existent, but small, win.

This is my argument. Everything else in your long rant about how Altenna had similarly durability to everyone on the team against magic users proved my point.

Your argument is that since Altenna shitstomps Johan in offense and has better durability, Johan wins because he exists for 3 chapters prior, despite being just as bad then as he is now?

Better res, around longer, etc., etc.

NoishFee and LevinFee take 1 more hit to die than Altenna against Dark Mages.
LevinFee and ClaudeFee have far inferior offense.

Well, if you would stop bringing up completely irrelevant characters to the discussion, you would note that Altenna's flaws are worse than Johan's.

Irrelevant? How is this irrelevant? Your OP vaguely said "Altenna down" and mentioned Johan, meaning you were suggesting Altenna should drop to below Johan. I was asking how far below Johan you wanted her to drop (if you wanted Johan up above Altenna you would have said Johan up).

The fact that you've completely ignored how terrible Johan's offense is isn't helping you.

A Hel Bishop hit and a Forrest attack in the forest is a ORKO on anyone, for instance, Altenna included.

Oh, sorry, so it matters at Miletos since cantoing away from the 5 move enemies in the forest with a flyer is difficult, since the rest she's either not fighting (lolvelthomer, lolrados) or OHKOs.

Basically, it comes down to this.

Altenna ORKOs with a weapon that only she can use and some other random fodder weapon that not a whole lot of people want, since hey, they have better.
Johan 2RKOs with a weapon that a couple other people also want, and without it he's like 3RKOing or some shit.

Altenna has slightly better durability due to more HP/Avoid/Def/Res, save against Scorpio's guys, but thanks to forests + leadership Brohan's offense there is a joke.

Johan is around for 3 chapters before Altenna joins.

Altenna's offense is at least twice as good. This alone makes Altenna better if we go by the "If you have half the availability you should be twice as good" rule. Having double the offense and double the durability would make her 4 times as good. Now, Brohan has a bit over twice as much availability. However, Altenna also has the utility of making rescuing Palmark not a luckfest with Fee trying to dodge shit and healing with the Earth Sword when absolutely necessary. This is huge, since it's like 500 free EXP plus the Tyfring for Celice.

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16 Re: Altenna down on Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:35 am

I really don't know what a lot of this shit is about but I want to say that ORKO/OHKOing enemies with effective damage before they counter you and then Canto-GTFOing away (with flight no less) before they can reach you far outweighs you being weak to them. Obviously it's better if you can just stay there and clean up shop, but Gohan can't do that [he gets his ass spanked by mages just as badly] so...

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17 Re: Altenna down on Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:53 am

I'm not going to write up another huge post because, frankly, I don't care enough. I'll respond to a few things, but the rest is just "lolcanto" and "everyone else can kill the bow knights so they don't fight Altenna", which is a really poor argument.


Yeah, Leaf, who has an astounding 9 Magic at Level 30, wants Tornado. Hey, here's a list of enemies that Leaf 2HKOs with Tornado

See that? That was an awfully long list. He has 29 fucking attack with it, even if enemies had 0 Res he couldn't kill with that shit.

How about the list of stuff he 4HKOs with the Hero Axe

JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING

See the difference?

He wants Hero because Hero makes you a sexy, awesome, killing machine, but the Hero Bow is probably taken by the kid who looks like Adean's lovechild with Lex, the Hero Sword is wanted by like half the freaking cast so Leaf getting his grubby little paws on it is unlikely, and then Fee and Fin and Oifaye also want the Hero Lance because it's pretty sexy, whereas the only competition for the Hero Axe are Hannilol and Johan, both of whom kill approximately jack shit with it because their offense blows.

Yup.

Paperblade wrote:
Haha, Johan with Pursuit Ring. Basically, it improves his offense vs. Lance Armors, Axe Armors, and Mountain Thieves.

I ran the numbers, actually, and those enemies that Altenna was supposed to be winning against? You know, like, Dragon Knights and Duke Knights and Great Knights? Yeah, Johan can ORKO them at 20 with the Hero Axe and the Pursuit Ring.

And, of course, the numerous Armors in Chapter 7-8.


Meaning it basically amounts to Cool Story Bro, as both Patty

You mean the one who only needs a Magic Sword to be able to do her job?


and Leaf want its before he promotes

Leaf wants the Elite Ring a LOT more than he wants the Pursuit Ring, and he has Continue and Critical.


JamkaLester wants it

Who isn't even on the list.


LevinTinny wants it.

Continue, Critical, AND Wrath? If she isn't ORKOing something, you've got a serious problem on your hands.


Plus most Epilogue and Ch. 10 enemies are too fast for Brohan to double with the Hero Axe anyway.

Epilouge, I'll give you, but I'll say it again. Chapter 10 is 95% Dark Mages, which Johan will ORKO with the Pursuit Ring. Also, there are some Armors at the end, so it helps against them.


Your argument is that since Altenna shitstomps Johan in offense

"Shitstomps"? rofl

2RKOing with a possibility of ORKOing with the Pursuit Ring that nobody wants vs. ORKOing

This isn't like Mist vs. Rhys earlygame in FE10.


and has better durability

slightly against uncommon enemies*


Johan wins because he exists for 3 chapters prior, despite being just as bad then as he is now?

How, pray tell, is 2RKOing and getting, like, 4RKO'd in return "bad"? At worst, it's, like, average.


NoishFee and LevinFee take 1 more hit to die than Altenna against Dark Mages.
LevinFee and ClaudeFee have far inferior offense.

And then flying around in Chapter 7-8, saving villages like a badass and having the Hero Lance...


Oh, sorry, so it matters at Miletos since cantoing away from the 5 move enemies in the forest with a flyer is difficult

When there's a shitload of them and sleep staves, it impedes anyone's ability to fight.


Altenna ORKOs with a weapon that only she can use and some other random fodder weapon that not a whole lot of people want, since hey, they have better.

There really isn't much better than a Silver Sword except for, like, the Hero Sword and maybe the Silver Blade if you can afford the hit to accuracy.


Johan 2RKOs with a weapon that a couple other people also want, and without it he's like 3RKOing or some shit.

Again, Leaf doesn't even want it, and Hannibal is Hannibal.

Johan has no competition. Also, Pursuit Ring can bump up those 2RKOs to ORKOs, and, again, nobody cares about it by this point.


Altenna has slightly better durability due to more HP/Avoid/Def/Res, save against Scorpio's guys, but thanks to forests + leadership Brohan's offense there is a joke.

Thank you for agreeing with me.


Johan is around for 3 chapters before Altenna joins.

Yes, sir.


Altenna's offense is at least twice as good.

rofl

No, seriously. Look up.


Having double the offense and double the durability would make her 4 times as good.

Err, what? Didn't you just fucking say that Altenna has a SLIGHT durability lead? Now it's double?

Make up your fucking mind.


However, Altenna also has the utility of making rescuing Palmark not a luckfest with Fee trying to dodge shit and healing with the Earth Sword when absolutely necessary.

It takes these guys 7 entire turns (I counted) to reach Palmark, and then another 2 to kill everyone if all of them are still alive.

They also prioritize PCs over NPCs.

You'd have to be functionally retarded to let Palmark die.


This is huge, since it's like 500 free EXP plus the Tyfring for Celice.

How is 500 EXP going to be "huge" in the second-to-last chapter of the game, where pretty much everyone is promoted?



I really don't know what a lot of this shit is about but I want to say that ORKO/OHKOing enemies with effective damage before they counter you and then Canto-GTFOing away (with flight no less) before they can reach you far outweighs you being weak to them. Obviously it's better if you can just stay there and clean up shop but Gohan can't do that [he gets his ass spanked by mages just as badly] so...

But this is supposed to be the group of enemies that Altenna is great against, and she can't even fight them without fear of being sniped. That's what I'm saying.

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