Johan vs. Fin

Why exactly is there such a big gap between these units that are so similar?

Johan comes in Chapter 6, while Fin comes in Chapter 7. Fin is pretty much stuck in one spot the entire chapter, while Johan gets to wreak havoc with the rest of the army. With the extra arena and chapter time, it isn't unreasonable to assume 16/0 for both of them.

Johan: 44.4 HP, 32.6 Atk (Hero Axe), 2 AS, 14.4 Def
Fin: 42.5 HP, 28.5 Atk (Hero Lance), 2.5 AS, 11.5 Def

Aside from er....half of an AS point, Johan wins in every other parameter. Then skills come down to Prayer vs. Ambush. Both help preserve the life of the characters, although Johan already has an advantage here due to better durability. Even 18/0 Finn loses or ties all of these parameters (although he'll have a 1 AS lead, yay). Then compare growths:

Johan: +40% HP, +10% Str, -20% Skl, +20% Spd, +30% Def, -40% Lck

Aside from Skl and Lck, Johan is destroying Fin growthwise as well. Actually, Lck is really the only parameter that Fin has a chance of really beating Johan. In a game where half of the enemies have negative AS, hit is practically a non-issue on everyone except for bosses. Their promo gains are also the same, except that Johan gets +2 Def. Oh, and Johan has practically no competition for his hero weapon (unless you're using LOL Hannibal or wasting it on Leaf), while Fin has tons, (like Fee).

I realize that this is hyping a bit, but if anything Johan>Fin. Johan up, or Fin down.

I think people will probably say 2 things to this.

1. Fin being stuck in that one spot is rather crucial, since otherwise it's the weak at the moment Leaf and Nanna. Johan sort of has to compete with his team, though he's still beastly (hey, brave axe and canto with a mount on these psychotically hard hitting dark mages! Can you say the best player phase?)

2. Fin might be higher level. Though from the looks of it, it won't really matter that much, but it's still ridiculous to assume he only got 15 levels int he course of 4 chapters when he's potentially better offensively than Cuan (Take Cuan's steel spear, PROFIT!). Fin's probably your best mobile offense unit outside of Sigurd himself outside of when Cuan lands an Adept.

But otherwise, it seems little changes, and Johan still seems to be better. I can agree, as I see the average Jo brothers to be a bit more than average.

In addition to him maybe being at a better level relative to Johan, Fin also gets +1 Str/Skl/Def from a convo with Cuan. Fin has Pursuit for sometimes quadruple-attacking with Hero Lance or doubling with non-Hero weapons when useful. And if even half the enemies have negative AS, Johan has some Hit issues. 90 Hit with Hero Axe at base, 100 Hit at Level 30. Fin's Hit isn't exactly uber either, of course, but it's still...well, better than that.

Not that I necessarily oppose this so much as thought you left several important things out that work to Fin's advantage. They do indeed seem too far apart.

From what I've seen, Hero Axe!Johan has ORKOing issues without Pursuit Ring simply because enemy HP values are so high. Fin with Silver often does the trick, and if not, quadruple it with Hero Lance.

Anyway, I agree they're too far apart. We raised Fin a while ago though.

High:
Oifaye
Delmud[Fin>Beowulf]
Lakche[Lex]
Skasar[Lex]
Delmud[Azel]
Serlis
Fee[Noish]
Fin
Laylea
Leen [Not gonna bother seperating her]
Altenna


UpMid:
Nanna [Azel]
Lakche[Noish]
Skasar[Noish]
Lester[Midir]
Nanna [Fin]
Sety[Claude]
Sety[Noish]
Hawk
Arthur[Azel]
Yuria

Mid:
Johan

I do not feel Johan is High tier, but I dunno about Fin in Upper Mid either. Maybe both around Hawk/Sety?

IMO innate pursuit in a game where loads of units have negative AS [as you said] certainly warrants something of a gap, or maybe I'm just saying that because I don't think Fin should drop out of High.

Still, I can agree Johan should move up, for starters. 2 tiers might suck, but does a one tier difference seem fair?

Johan around Hawk right now seems fine for now if Fin goes to bottom of high. Some comparisons can be made to the closest characters around them from there.

I don't know if I agree with Johan > AzelArthur, who he was just moved above.

AzelArthur has better offense since he doubles everything and magic is imba, much better avoid because Axes are a bad joke (he has 22 more comparing them at their base levels, and then since he's 10 levels lower gains a ton more EXP and has far superior Spd/Luck growths), better Res, meaning Johan only performs better vs. high hit enemies (ie bosses, which he has serious hit issues against, and sword users, which he has WTD and thus serious hit issues against). Johan does have 60% more Move, which is pretty awesome. However, once Arthur promotes the move gap disappears entirely, giving him 2-3 chapters of just totally dominating Johan, vs. 3-4 chapters of being more or less equalish.

Johan is slow. Like, really freaking slow. Pretty much anything with Pursuit's going to double him, and it's going to hurt because like everything with Pursuit is fast, accurate, and is at worst WTN with him. Meanwhile, Arthur has this massive avoid lead because he can one round most stuff with just Elwind, so he's facing like 50 hit before authority and stuff while Johan is facing like 80-90. Ouch. There goes the HP/Def lead, and Johan's still losing offense.

Johan may be > Julia since she's gone for 2 chapters, but Resire is imba and staff utility is great.

In that case, Fin should definitely be out of high. Fin has a negligible AS lead over Johan at first, which turns into a win for Johan after a few levels. Also, with all enemies with negative AS in this game, I doubt anything apart from bosses are going to give him much trouble.

Fin has a negligible AS lead over Johan at first

Pursuit-quadding without the ring is not "neligible". If Johan is going to x4, he needs the ring, and reliance on the ring is considered an issue for everybody else, it should be considered the same for Johan.

Paperblade's argument was based entirely on him being doubled, which would apply to Finn as well. Also, Finn relies just as much on the Hero Lance as Johan does on the pursuit ring. Many characters would like that Hero Lance (Fee, Oifaye, Aless/Altenna when they don't have the money to repair their holy weapons, etc). If Finn gets the Silver Lance, he has roughly the same attack as Johan, and isn't ORKOing any more. Basically, Finn needs the Hero Lance to be exceptional, and Johan needs the Pursuit Ring. Johan is also more durable. Fin really does need to be out of high upon re-examining him.

Fee

I dispute this. Many of the better Fees, say Noish for example, do plenty with Silver/Slim.

Oifaye

uh, why him? Earlygame he's so h4x he doesn't need one, and endgame he's doing much worse than Fin is with it (Oifaye doesn't get +4 str talks/villages from gen 1 which equates to +8 more damage. Fin also gets 2 higher str on average anyway so really it's more like +12)

Aless/Altenna when they don't have the money to repair their holy weapons, etc

How often does this happen, anyway? I know it's certainly never an issue for Aless [and it's far more convenient to just give him something like a steel/silver sword, he's already epic h4x anyway] plus he has Leen to toss him money. Slim is also a much better resource cost-value tradeoff than Hero for Altenna than Hero [Hey look, she can actually double!]

Johan is also more durable.

Actually, Fin has a monopoly on the gen 1 stat villages (it gives piddling boosts, like barely a stat point to any other kid so it's a waste on anybody NOT Fin), and one of them gives def. (then there's his talk with Cuan in C1 which is another 1 def) I don't remember how much the village boost gives, but calling it 1 does close the gap notably [Johan's peak win is only 4 def which isn't as relevant]

Fin really does need to be out of high upon re-examining him.

If his competition for Hero Lance sucks worse than Pursuit Ring, fine.

Villages in gen 2 net Fin +3 str and +1 def iirc.

Oifaye is hax, but he's not ORKOing everything in sight. Already against the Ch6 axefighters, he needs a crit to kill with the Cutter, and I think he barely-clean kills with Javelin. So he needs some kind of sword for those. Sure, things like Mages and Priests he can ORKO with about anything, but sometimes he'll need Hero or a crit.

Fee doesn't need Hero? With Noish as a father she starts off with 10 Str, and won't surpass Fin's average 16/0 Strength (which is 14.5 with the Cuan talk in Gen 1) until she herself is 15/0. Then consider that he gets +5 strength from promotion, and she gets a big fat 0.

21 Fin: 21 Str (with the talk)
21 Fee: 17.6 Str

This is assuming same levels, which is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention that this is Fee's best case scenario, and there are many other possible pairings that will pull her strength down lower. So yes, Fee does need that Hero Lance, considering that Fin does too. Mekkah also mentioned that Oifaye will need it too, so Fin does have competition for it.

I don't remember who needs the Pursuit Ring in Gen 2 if you're using pairings that don't suck (Maybe Leaf before promotion? Maybe Arthur if you made a crappy pairing without Holsety or Pursuit)? But Fin already has two candidates that really want that weapon that gives him an edge (without it, you can't say he's better then Johan). And I'm uncertain as to who really needs Pursuit in Gen 2. Looking again, they should probably be right next to each other.

Another note: We can't assume that Fin's getting access to those villages. We can't just assume that the player in Gen 1 is going to just have Gen 2 in their mind when planning everything. AKA: There are Gen 1 characters that benefit from that strength bonus immediately, so we can't assume that Fin has a monopoly on them.

If we're assuming that we're giving both characters no favouritism, here's how it looks when they both promote:

21 Johan: 49.9 HP, 39.6 Str (Hero), 5.5 AS, 21.4 Def
21 Fin (with Cuan talk): 46 HP, 41 Atk (Silver), 5 AS, 16 Def

3.9 HP, .5 AS, 5.4 Def and guaranteed doubling>>>1.4 Strength

If they both get the favouritism that they want (Fin's Hero Lance and Johan's Pursuit Ring), Fin now loses Atk by 3.6, and now they both have the same amount of attacks (either 2 or 4 depending on enemy AS). Even all those villages in gen 1 result in Fin losing every parameter. The trend continues with Johan's superior growths. As much as I like Fin (and I really do), he should be right below Johan, both below Arther (Azel).

And about Altenna wanting slim, even at max level she has 39 Atk with it, which is less then Johan's Atk at Lvl 21. Apparently Johan's atk "isn't enough to ORKO", so I don't see how she's doing well at all with a Slim Lance instead of Hero Lance (at least she'll have a shot at doubling with Hero).

This is also completely ignoring the fact that you couldnt ASK for a better unit to handle the brave lance. Damn thing's probably got near the 50 kill count, it's pretty much the only reason I don't use Claud as Fury's hubby because frankly I find Holsety overrated.

But basically, there's no excuse for Fury not to have it just because of flight alone. I mean srsly. No move restrictions fo the unit wielding basically the kill button, can address enemies far away before anyone else with said weapon, you get Fee far earlier, she can fly down to aid the Lensteriens anyways, and is the best way to save villages as early as possible with minimum damage. Even moreso, if paired up with Levin? Can you say adept and critical without needing the 50 kills (not that it easily couldn't by now)? I say yes please.

fine by me, moving

Not sure where to point this out, but the change isn't present on the current tier list, and the link you posted in the tier list topic that was supposed to link to this topic actually is just a link to the tier list.

I'm waiting for the Altenna debate to wrap up so I can make two changes in one go instead of editing the list twice.

IOS wrote:Paperblade's argument was based entirely on him being doubled, which would apply to Finn as well. Also, Finn relies just as much on the Hero Lance as Johan does on the pursuit ring. Many characters would like that Hero Lance (Fee, Oifaye, Aless/Altenna when they don't have the money to repair their holy weapons, etc). If Finn gets the Silver Lance, he has roughly the same attack as Johan, and isn't ORKOing any more. Basically, Finn needs the Hero Lance to be exceptional, and Johan needs the Pursuit Ring. Johan is also more durable. Fin really does need to be out of high upon re-examining him.

Cool story bro, where did I say it didn't apply to Fin as well?

Fee doesn't need Hero? With Noish as a father she starts off with 10 Str, and won't surpass Fin's average 16/0 Strength (which is 14.5 with the Cuan talk in Gen 1) until she herself is 15/0. Then consider that he gets +5 strength from promotion, and she gets a big fat 0.

21 Fin: 21 Str (with the talk)
21 Fee: 17.6 Str

This is assuming same levels, which is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention that this is Fee's best case scenario, and there are many other possible pairings that will pull her strength down lower. So yes, Fee does need that Hero Lance, considering that Fin does too.

Fee can use the Hero Sword too, on top of Magic Swords (LevinFee 3-4HKOs physicals with them, with like an 83% chance to get at least 1 Continue/Crit)

Mekkah also mentioned that Oifaye will need it too, so Fin does have competition for it.

Oifaye only needs to be like Level 18 to one round Hannilol's armors with the Iron Cutter.
Level 23 for the strongest Dragon Knights with the Wing Clipper.
Level 22 to double the Duke Knights in Ch. 9 with the Knight Killer (he can't get the Forest Knights without the Hero Sword)
Slim Lance or Iron Blade or some shit for killing mages and stuff.

Then there's shit like Forrests and Snipers that he can't kill even with the Hero Lance.

I don't remember who needs the Pursuit Ring in Gen 2 if you're using pairings that don't suck (Maybe Leaf before promotion? Maybe Arthur if you made a crappy pairing without Holsety or Pursuit)? But Fin already has two candidates that really want that weapon that gives him an edge (without it, you can't say he's better then Johan). And I'm uncertain as to who really needs Pursuit in Gen 2. Looking again, they should probably be right next to each other.

Holyn or JamkaPatty prior to promoting, LevinTinny, Leaf, JamkaLester.
Also, Leaf also wants the Hero Axe or Hero Lance post-promotion for one rounding, which sucks for Johan since it's mid-late game where Johan catches up in levels that he's supposed to be beating Fin.

21 Johan: 49.9 HP, 39.6 Str (Hero), 5.5 AS, 21.4 Def
21 Fin (with Cuan talk): 46 HP, 41 Atk (Silver), 5 AS, 16 Def

3.9 HP, .5 AS, 5.4 Def and guaranteed doubling>>>1.4 Strength

If they both get the favouritism that they want (Fin's Hero Lance and Johan's Pursuit Ring), Fin now loses Atk by 3.6, and now they both have the same amount of attacks (either 2 or 4 depending on enemy AS). Even all those villages in gen 1 result in Fin losing every parameter. The trend continues with Johan's superior growths. As much as I like Fin (and I really do), he should be right below Johan, both below Arther (Azel).

Speaking of biased comparisons...

Why is Johan the same level as Fin, when Fin should be like Level 20 when he joins while Johan is like Level 14 or so?
Why does Johan get the Hero Axe, despite Leaf wanting it, when Fin doesn't get the Hero Lance, yet the Hero Axe + Pursuit Ring is considered "equal favoritism" to just the Hero Lance?
What about Prayer? What about Fin's 12 Luck lead?

And about Altenna wanting slim, even at max level she has 39 Atk with it, which is less then Johan's Atk at Lvl 21. Apparently Johan's atk "isn't enough to ORKO", so I don't see how she's doing well at all with a Slim Lance instead of Hero Lance (at least she'll have a shot at doubling with Hero).

Altenna only needs these weapons for enemies she can't double or OHKO with the Gae Bolg, which is basically some staff users (where like a Steel Sword will suffice) and some Sword/Bow users (but she doesn't double with Lances anyway and still can't 2HKO so she'd need a Sword).

Why is Johan the same level as Fin, when Fin should be like Level 20 when he joins while Johan is like Level 14 or so?

...This is a valid point, actually. Don't most people assume Fin is promoted or over by the time he leaves in Gen 1?

I do agree, however, that the Hero Axe is a (commonly misconcepted, people assume it all the time for some reason) stupid waste on Leaf. By the time he promotes, which is the only time he can use it, he's a complete h4x machine already. 20 promoted Leaf has 46 atk with a Silver Blade which is plenty to ORKO shit. Hell, since it's likely not final yet he can get away with just a silver sword.

No shit, Leaf doesn't give a damn about axes. Giving him the brave axe is uneccesary fire power.

As for Fin being promoted, I can tell you right now that it is a BIT of a stretch without the Elite Ring. He might come into generation 2 at level 16-18 if he doesn't get it (so you have actual incentive to let him kill Volts).

Ok, now a proper sober response.

I don't think its all that reasonable to assume that Fin promotes. He's currently in lower mid on the Gen 1 tier list, so we can't assume that he's performing all that well (unless he's only there because of availability). On ThunderMan's youtube play through, he was Level 18 IIRC. Regardless, the gap between a 16 Johan and even a 20* Fin closes quickly in Chapter 7. Fin gets very little enemy action apart from the initial enemies, which are so far underleveled that he barely gets any experience from them. Johan on the other hand gets the entire chapter to roam around, and the Hero Axe gives him one of the best player phase offences of the team. So regardless, that gap closes quickly, and Johan has a clear win at equal levels thanks to his Hero Axe monopoly.

Wait a minute, what the hell is Fin doing in lower mid in gen 1? Is it due to the fact he vanishes nearly halfway through? Because imo, he's one of the more epic units in gen 1 while he exists...

I agree he won't be promoting without the Elite ring, but still...I think the only reason would be availability and his prologue performance.

Of course availability is a factor there.

Availability is easily the biggest factor. Fin performs perfectly well throughout his existence in gen 1, it's his availability that holds him back more than any other reason [same with Cuan really]

Since Fin also gets much more out of the Elite Ring than any other gen 1 character imho it's something of a sandbag NOT to let him have it at least for a while.

Thanks for the well thought out and concise counterargument explaining why no one else wants the Pursuit Ring and how Johan magically gained 8 levels from killing enemy Axe Knights that he 2HKOs and can't counter + the arena and why Fin's avoid lead doesn't matter.

Like what? Magic, which he has shit for attack with (lol, 5HKOs magic users and 3-4HKOs everything else at max level with Tornado)? Enemy Res may be a joke, but enemy HP certainly isn't.
Swords? You mean the weapons that Lakche, Skasaha, Oifaye, Fee, Celice prior to Epilogue, Delmud, and Patty all want? There's 2 Silver, 2 Blades, and 2 Heroes, and about 7 more units who want them. Granted, Fee and Oifaye can use the Hero Lance.
He could take the Silver Lance, but he can't double enemies locked to staves or swords, which happen to be relatively numerous come Ch. 10 and Epilogue, and he's taking counters from the high number of mages unless Crit/Continue proc, and they fucking hurt.
Maybe Bows.

Also, no shit Leaf rapes with the Silver Blade. So does Oifaye, and so does Fee after she promotes. The problem is is that he's not guaranteed it, just like he's not necessarily guaranteed any good Sword because of the sheer number of sword users. The only people who *don't* want Hero weapons are magic users (obviously, barring Leaf because his Mag blows) and holy weapon users, the former because they can't use them and the latter because they have something better. Enemy HP is insane, and if you're seriously suggesting that a unit going from 60% one rounding or whatever the hell their combined skill activation is to 100% isn't good, you're out of your bloody mind, especially since the only thing Johan's gonna be one rounding with the Hero Axe are mages, and then Axe/Lance users if he gets the Pursuit Ring, which puts him in the same bloody boat as Fin, except Fin only wants the Hero Lance, which only 3 people want (Hannibal isn't a person), and all these people can also fight over Swords. Johan, meanwhile, has to also fight for the Pursuit Ring, which is wanted by LevinTinny, JamkaWhoever, HolynPatty, etc., which you didn't address since you opted for flames.

Just because Leaf has other options doesn't mean that Johan is guaranteed the Hero Axe, just like how just because Oifaye and Fee have other options doesn't guarantee Fin the Hero Lance. The difference is that if Fin doesn't get the Hero Lance, he can still double stuff Johan can't with the Slim Lance or use the Silver Lance when both are. You didn't even prove that Johan's leads meant anything, which I find hee-lare-ious.

Here's a list of stuff that Fin's 5AS fails to double in Chapters 8

Ch. 8

Slim Sword Troubs with Ovo (Johan has 56 hit on them at 21, and good luck arguing him getting 9 levels in 2 chapters)
Bishop with Muhammed that he won't even fight
Eliu and Fetra (which Johan barely 2HKOs at his hilariously inflated level)
Ishtar (rofl)
Blume
That Thief Fighter off in a corner by that village that he probably won't even fight
Coruta

Man, that's a pretty epic list. Fin doubles the Troubs with the Slim Lance so if you really care that much you could use one of those to kill them.

I'll admit, Johan wins durability since he probably never needs to be healed whereas if Fin is swarmed he'll live due to roflprayer but need to be healed (the Lance Knights with Ovo leave 21 Fin with 5HP after 5 hits which drops their hit to nada, just +1HP lets him do the same vs. the mage sisters, and the next pack of enemies are the Dragon Riders who have like 50% hit on him without charisma/leadership, and drop him to like 5HP if they use Javelins, which drops their hit to 0), but not dying vs. not dying but needing to be healed if everything attacked him isn't a huge difference compared to Fin winning offense (Johan isn't 2HKOing Dragon Riders without the insanely inflated level you have him at or a Power Ring, whereas Fin will kill them). Plus without Johan's inflated level, his HP/Def are comparable to Fin's, but he has less Avoid and no Prayer.

Shit Fin can't double in Ch. 9

Those Forrests he won't ever fight
Healers
Trabant (maybe, he has only 6AS)
Forest Knights
Musar
Slim Lance Dragon Knights
Arion

Yet again, another fun filled list full of crap that Johan has hit problems against or are bosses, although this time we also have Slim Lance Dragon Knights and Johan's probably promoted.

Blah blah, Prayer, blah blah, this continues until both are useless because even Patty is one rounding and outtanks them.

I am tempted to say Fin > Johan just because by the time Johan pulls ahead we're fighting billions of mages plus Oifaye is just as slow as Fin so he wants the Hero Sword to kill stuff and not the Lance, which slows him down to the point where his offense vs. Sword/Staff/Bow users is the same as it was with like a Silver Sword, so Fee and Oifaye don't really want Hero to kill as much anymore so Fin can probably take the Hero and probably tie, although I don't know how much if any weight is being given to Fin's "Save Leaf and Nanna's asses" compared to Brohan in Ch. 6 and 7.

But Kael has spoken, so apparently this is all for naught.

I've debated with Int since he first started, I'm used to being talked down to.

I like how I'm being called out for talking down to people (when I decided to browse the internet after a night of drinks no less), yet saying demeaning phrases like "cool story bro" completely unprovoked when completely sober is perfectly fine.

I could go through your arguments individually, but I don't care enough, so I'll sum it up. Put Fin right above Johan, I don't really care. They just need to be next to each other (even you admitted that you're only "tempted" to say Fin>Johan). I don't really have the time to have a full out debate at the moment.