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1 Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post here for all complaints about Mia's current position.

Please read the following first, though:
one
two
three
four
five (no, Zihark is not good for wrath if Mia is in play and him. By the time you get wrath his supports should be up and running, so he's already got durability. They both likely 3HKO most things and have crit and he has adept, so there is really no point boosting it further. Mia takes wrath, already has vantage, and her durability goes way up along with her offence. If both units are in play and you give wrath to Zihark, Mia is stuck without wrath and Zihark doesn't improve the overall power level of the team nearly as much since he was already pretty good durably. Neph has wrath already, so what was up with that? Most of your paladins are top/high tiers that ORKO almost everything in existence with a forge or in some cases even without. And have much durability. Again, power level of the team only goes up a smidgeon in comparison to Mia getting it. But her current position does not actually rely on wrath since Cynthia isn't really willing to just give it to her.)
six
seven
eight
nine
ten
eleven
twelve
thirteen
fourteen (if you don't read any others, read this one.)
fifteen (follow up in response to a complaint that the amount of bexp applied to Mia was too high)
sixteen
seventeen
eighteen
nineteen
twenty
twenty one
twenty two
twenty three
twenty four
twenty five
twenty six
twenty seven (note that if someone else has vantage + wrath then guard on anyone but Mia is virtually pointless, and someone with just wrath but not vantage is not using wrath to its full potential)
twenty eight (here is a fun one about Stefan)
twenty nine (more about Stefan's sad luck)
thirty
thirty one
thirty two
thirty three
thirty four (this is funny because it highlights how much bexp int had left over even after using it on units throughout his playthrough.
thirty five
thirty six (unaltered version of the original post that includes the rest of these links)


Complaints should keep this in mind. Especially for anyone who was capable of going onto the fe9 tier list during the week in which most of this was discussed but didn't. Note how it took ~200 posts to get Mia there, though other discussions were also occurring at the same time so its probably not a full 200. Also, note how Mia compares to Stefan when they are both around.

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51 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:52 pm

Is anyone actually trying to say Mia > Mist? I've seen comparisons but am not actually sure if that's what's trying to be proven. And I definitely do not agree with it.

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52 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:12 pm

I think,or hope that Grandjackal was joking.Anyway,as for Mia taking so much BEXP,I know when I was arguing her up,I never assumed more than 411 Bexp near when she joined,and that was enough to make her comparable to Zihark with the same amount,and I never saw anyone else try to give her the insane amounts Smash is claiming we are.

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53 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:15 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:Is anyone actually trying to say Mia > Mist? I've seen comparisons but am not actually sure if that's what's trying to be proven. And I definitely do not agree with it.

No, nobody is trying to argue Mia over Mist.

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54 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:05 am

Red Fox of Fire wrote:Is anyone actually trying to say Mia > Mist? I've seen comparisons but am not actually sure if that's what's trying to be proven. And I definitely do not agree with it.

The problem is that people think Mia is worth babying as a combat unit and Mist isn't, when in reality Mist arguably requires less favoritism than Mia to become a good fighter.

It has nothing to do with anyone actually saying Mia > Mist, but rather the double standards everyone uses when Mia is involved.

I think,or hope that Grandjackal was joking.Anyway,as for Mia taking so much BEXP,I know when I was arguing her up,I never assumed more than 411 Bexp near when she joined,and that was enough to make her comparable to Zihark with the same amount,and I never saw anyone else try to give her the insane amounts Smash is claiming we are.

I never implied that Mia is getting an "insane" amount of BEXP.

I DO remember saying something along the lines of "Mia will be eating up more BEXP than Mist". Then again everyone takes my posts out of context.



Last edited by Horsedick.MPEG on Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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55 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:02 am

Horsedick.MPEG wrote:
Red Fox of Fire wrote:Is anyone actually trying to say Mia > Mist? I've seen comparisons but am not actually sure if that's what's trying to be proven. And I definitely do not agree with it.

The problem is that people think Mia is worth babying as a combat unit and Mist isn't, when in reality Mist arguably requires less favoritism than Mia to become a good fighter.

And yet Zihark requires more work than Mia. You can't just have him not fight until chapter 21 when his Brom support finally hits A. And Mist is already quite good at her existing job, so why bother with her combat ability? And what is your definition of "babying" anyway? I have a feeling that your definition as it applies to Mia is different than your definition as it applies to non-Mia units. Or at the very least your definition in general is flawed. Unfortunately all I have to base a conclusion on is the way in which you use the term, so that's the conclusion I'm stuck with.

And I suppose you are never going to give up the word "favouritism" in favour of something more appropriate/accurate for what is actually happening.

I think,or hope that Grandjackal was joking.Anyway,as for Mia taking so much BEXP,I know when I was arguing her up,I never assumed more than 411 Bexp near when she joined,and that was enough to make her comparable to Zihark with the same amount,and I never saw anyone else try to give her the insane amounts Smash is claiming we are.

I never implied that Mia is getting an "insane" amount of BEXP.

I DO remember saying something along the lines of "Mia will be eating up more BEXP than Mist". Then again everyone takes my posts out of context.

Except I don't see how that one is true. Mia isn't taking more than Mist, at least not until after Mist promotes. But after Mist promotes has never been my problem. My issue is with before promotion. And maybe you haven't used the word "insane" before, but in multiple threads on this subject you have frequently complained about the bexp on Mia in such a way that only makes sense if you think she is getting an insane amount. If you understand she is not getting an insane amount of bexp, then most of your complains are logically inconsistent. Besides, even if it is true that Mia takes more, remember that Mia is actually making use of that bexp for multiple chapters whereas a bexp dump on Mist from, say, level 5 to level 10 or something followed by staff exp for the next 10 levels means that for multiple chapters that bexp is going to waste. Even if we gave Mia more bexp than whatever Mist took to take 5 levels, it is still going to be easier to justify the bexp we spend on Mia. And you can't just hand-wave the bexp Mist takes before promotion by saying that she uses less later (after promotion). In case you haven't realized it, the bexp she saves after chapter 20 can't be sent in a time machine back to chapters in the early teens. Bexp usage isn't something that can just be summed up over the whole game then divided by the maximum bexp and use the quotient as your way of determining how "fair" the amount of bexp was. There are far more factors to consider in order to determine whether a given amount of bexp is justifiable.

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56 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:52 am

Smash,if you understand that Mia isn't taking a lot of BEXP,then what's the problem?I said Mia takes 411 Bexp near the beginning,and she performed fine after that on her own merits,without anymore BEXP.Whereas you give Mist 500 Bexp,and claim Mia takes more.500>411.

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57 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:08 am

Ether wrote:Smash,if you understand that Mia isn't taking a lot of BEXP,then what's the problem?I said Mia takes 411 Bexp near the beginning,and she performed fine after that on her own merits,without anymore BEXP.Whereas you give Mist 500 Bexp,and claim Mia takes more.500>411.

I was assuming that Mia is taking ~10% of the BEXP (the amount I was giving Mist), on top of an extra 411. This 411 coming from other units who are no longer getting ~10% of the BEXP.

Now it's fine if you want to give Mia only 411 BEXP total, rather than 10% (which was something like 550), but you'd have to subtract a level from the estimates you usually have for her.

On a side note, this is what happens when units aren't getting BEXP between chapters (where I always assume units are already getting ~10% of the BEXP, if you were to take that away...). Let's take Neph, since she starts very underleveled and is one of the msot likely units to not be promoted (or barely promoted at best) by chapter 18 without BEXP.

Enemy head count and levels are all from Prog's enemy stats.

ch 11. 37 total enemies. However, 2 are Zihark/Jill, 2 are the enemies next to Jill so you're probably not killing them (mostly because they're in the opposite direction everyone should be going), 1 is lolBK, and 5 are vigilantes you aren't supposed to kill. So that leaves 27 normal enemies. Enemies are between level 9-14, with a few low level thieves. So let's say they're level 12 on average. Neph is level 7. If we're using... 6 combat units at the moment (Titania/Oscar/Kieran/Boyd/Ike/Marcia, plus Neph herself, and Brom/Zihark/Mordy/Lethe/SOren/Ilyana are all viable), then that's roughly 4 kills a person. If we assume every enemy is 2RKO'd, then every enemy will also produce hit exp. SO Neph would theoretically get 4-5 kills and 4-5 hits. Since she is 5 levels below, that comes out to ~33 exp a kill and 13 for hitting, but leveling up during the chapter will slightly reduce subsequent exp gains. Let's subtract 7 exp because she hit a higher level to make things simpler.
Neph would be 9/0.

ch 12. 10 ravens. Level 2-5. Let's say their average level is 4 because of the boss giving out extra exp. Let's also assume Ravens are on average 3RKO'd, so every raven produces 2 hit exp and 1 kill exp.

If we assume 6 combat units, then let's say Neph gets 2 kills and 4 hits. That's ~48 exp a kill and ~18 a hit, so Neph gets ~168 exp. Again, since of leveling up, let's subtract 8 exp.

Neph would be 10/0 with 60 exp.

ch 13. 38 enemies. 12 are Ravens (lvl 2-4), 3 halbs (lvl 2-3), boss, and the rest (21 enemies) are 1st tier generics (10-15. More closer to the lower end though). SO let's say all the promoted enemies are lvl 3 on average and the generics are lvl 12. Let's assume 1st tiers are 2RKO'd on average and 2nd tiers are 3RKO'd.
Assuming 7 combat units now (since Astrid/Jill are around, we might choose one of them), Neph will get about 2 2nd tier kills, 4 2nd tier hits, 3 1st tier kills, 3 1st tier hits. This gets ~45 exp for 2nd tier kill, ~17 for 2nd tier hit, ~28.5 for 1st tier kill, ~11.5 for 1st tier hit. This would result in 278 exp. DUe to leveling up and whatnot, let's say she gets... 265 exp.

Neph would be 13/0 with 25 exp.

ch 14. Stats weren't recorded due to FoW other than the tigers and boss, but let's just say they are level 14, and I don't recall very many enemies in this map, so let's say... 20 enemies (it IS only 5 turns for max BEXP, so it must be a short chapter with fewer enemies than normal). With 7 combat units, that's ~3 kills and 3 hits for Neph, so ~27 exp a kill and ~11 a hit, so 114 exp. She is supposed to level up and lose exp per hit/kill, but let's just say 125 exp (after all I could be wrong about the number of enemies and their level).

Neph would be 14/0 with 50 exp.

ch 15. I usually go for the BEXP, so no CEXP obtained.

ch 16. 38 enemies + Devdan. 1 boss, 2 are promoted (level 1 and 3). Enemies range from 12-16. So let's say 14.

With 8 combat units (Muarim/Stefan/Mak joined, we may pick one), that's ~5 tier 1 kills and 5 hits, and maybe 1 hit on promoted enemies. This is ~25.5 exp a kill, ~10.5 a hit, ~37.5 for promoted enemies and ~14.5 hit. So ~194.5 exp. With gaining levels during the chapter, maybe ~190 exp.

Neph would be 16/0 with 40 exp.

ch 17-1

19 1st tiers and 2 2nd tiers. 1st tiers range from lvl 13-18, although it seems to be skewed upwards, so let's say ave level is 16. 2nd tiers are lvl 4 and 5.
Assuming 8 combat units, that's ~2 1st tier kills, ~2 1st tier hits, and let's give her a 2nd tier kill since I didn't give her one in ch 16 (no hit though). ~10.5 for 1st tier hit, ~25.5 for kill, and ~37.5 exp for 2nd tier kill. So 109.5 exp. DUe to leveling let's say 105 exp.

Neph would be 17/0 with 45 exp.

17-2

22 1st tiers, 2 2nd tiers. 1st tiers are lvl 10-15 (wtf, they'rereally this low?), so let's say ave of lvl 13. 2nd tiers are lvl 2 and 3.
With 8 combat units, that's ~3 1st tier kills, ~3 1st tier hits, and lets give her 1 hit on 2nd tiers. ~8.5 exp for 1st tier hit, ~19.5 for kill, and ~13.5 for 2nd tier hit. So ~97.5 exp. With leveling up let say 95 exp.

Neph would be 18/0 with 35 exp.

17-3

42 1st tiers, 1 2nd tier. Enemies range from lvl 12-16 (assume lvl 14), and the 2nd tier is lvl 3.
However Ike rescues Leanne and is no longer a fighter, so let's take 7 combat units. However, a lot of enemies are mages who are easy to 1RKO, so let's assume that only every other enemy is 2RKO'd, so only half the enemies produce hit exp.
6 1st tier kills and 3 hits. ~8.5 exp a hit and ~19.5 a kill, so 142.5 exp. With leveling let's say 140 exp.

Neph would be 19/0 with 75 exp.

17-4

28 1st tiers, 5 2nd tiers, Oliver. 1st tiers range from 13-18, although it appears to be top heavy, so... assume lvl 16 average. 2nd tiers are lvl 3-5, so assume lvl 4 average.

With 7 combat units (again Ike still out of commission), ~4 1st tier kills, 4 1st tier hits, maybe 1 kill and 1 hit on 2nd tiers. ~8.5 exp a hit on 1st tiers, ~19.5 kill, ~12.5 exp a hit on 2nd tiers, ~29.5 on kill. So ~164 exp. Due to leveling up let's say 155.

Neph would be 20/1 with 30 exp.

So without any BEXP she'd barely reach 20/1.

Only there are some big assumptions I were making that would seriously reduce her exp intake.

- Assuming every single 1st tier enemy is 2-rounded. In reality most are getting 1-rounded. Some are 1RKO'd easily like mages or weighed down myrms, and some are 1RKO'd with forges like fighters and soldiers. This produces a lot less hit exp. Especially 2nd tiers, where the low lvl 2nd tiers (like lvl 1-3) are barely any stronger than the 1st tiers. For example, subtract just 1 hit on a 1st tier enemy in ch 11, 13, 14, 16, and all 4 parts of 17, and Neph already loses 82 exp. In a much more likely scenario, subtracting 2 hits from those chapters would be -164 exp, more if I were to subtract hit exp from 2nd tiers and not 1st tiers.

- Assuming we're routing every single map. The fact is, there are many chapters that do not require this (ch 11 is seize, ch 14 is kill boss, ch 16 is seize, etc.), and since reinforcements generally spawn from your starting position, you're even more unlikely to fight those enemies. This is also ignoring that sometimes the enemies are really just out of the way (like in ch 16, where enemies are spread out everywhere. And there are reinforcements on turns 7 and 8 from the starting position, and then turn 9 reinforcements somewhere.... when it's 8 turns for max BEXP). Remove one of Neph's kills from half of these chapters (11, 13, 14, 16, 17-1, 17-2, 17-4) is about 89 exp lost.

- Team composition. If you decided to use 8 combat... starting at chapter 11, rather than only 6 as I initially assumed, that would definitely reduce her exp gains in ch 11-14 (since I started assuming 8 combat units by chapter 16). Which is actually very likely as Titania/Ike/Oscar/Boyd/Kieran/Marcia already makes up 6, plus Neph herself, and a load of other viable units (Zihark/Soren/Mordy/Lethe/Ilyana/Brom). 6 combat units by chapter 11 is, personally, the lowest it's gonig to go, so Neph's exp gains can only decrease from here.
For example, assuming 8 combat units by ch 11, that's 3-4 kills and 3-4 hits per unit, rather than 4-5 kills and 4-5 hits.
THis can easily chop off 100+ exp overall (imagine -1 kill and hit in ch 11-14).

- Killing in the name of efficiency. even if we, say, only used 6 combat units in ch 11, for example our team being something like TItania/Ike/Boyd/Oscar/Kieran/Neph, we still are likely fielding Lethe and Mordy as fillers (and one of them to recruit Zihark) who will be killing and doing their thing (they won't be another mouth to feed if they're only being fillers, but they will be attacking whenever it will speed us up, which in this case will be extremely likely), or Marcia for some flying duty who may make a kill or two, Brom for emergency tanking, etc. THis is especially true earlygame where only the promoted PCs are monsters and most 1st tiers like Zihark will need to work for their kills, which is made easier if we had extra fillers to potshot and whatnot. This is pretty hard to estimate how much exp is lost due to this factor, but it cannot be ignored. After all, when I did my exp calculations for the DB in FE10, I didn't ignore this factor (I usually assumed something like 5 or so units we're seriously, but would split kills 6 ways because 1/6th goes to units that are not seriously used but are fielded to make things go by faster, e.g. Tauroneo/Tormod/etc.).

To be fair, with the fewer levels Neph is getting, the more exp she'd get from killing and hitting what she's getting. For example if we assumed she was only lvl 16 in 17-4 instead of lvl 19, she'd be 10 exp a hit on 1st tiers instead of 8.5, 22.5 kill on 1st tiers instead of 19.5, etc. Still, this at best gives her, like, 50 EXP.

Which means she's still down 300 EXP before killing in the name of efficiency is factored in.

Which means what level I'm seeing for Neph is more like 18/0 or so by chapter 18, again, before killing in the name of efficiency.

Now what happens if we give Neph ~10% of the BEXP? Well, depending on when and how much you spread out that BEXP, Neph could gain anywhere from 4-5 levels with 10% of the BEXP (which was something like 550 or so, whatever Mist got). However, as her level increases, her exp gains from hits and kills decreases, which means that 50 EXP I tacked back on Neph just now goes away, or might actually be even lower depending on when she gets BEXP (If, for example, you dumped 400 BEXP on Neph in ch 11, her level goes to liek 11, and now she'd be getting ~27 exp a kill instead of 33, and ~11 exp a hit instead of 13, and this exp reduction just goes on).

With "killing in the name of efficiency" factored in, assuming Neph being 20/1 by chapter 18, WITH ~10% of the BEXP on her already, sounds reasonable.

Which means, for Mia's case, I'm seeing her being something like 20/2, 20/3 if she's lucky, by chapter 18. And if you were to reduce her BEXP usage to 411, her level would drop to 20/1 or 20/2.

BTW, before anyone tries to take this exp calculation out of context, I'm not sandbagging Neph or hating on her. I could've used Brom, who only starts 1 level higher and thus will have about the same problems, or Marcia who starts 2 levels lower and 1 chapter earlier (so she's probably liek lvl 6, 1 below Neph). The whole point is that people are either seriously overestimating the amount of BEXP in this game, or there's some miscommunication (e.g. with Ether, apparently he says Mia gets 411 BEXP total, I thought it was 411 + her 10%). But if there's a miscommunication, then some units' levels are overestimated, as it seems most people don't assume units are actually getting 550 or wahtever 10% is, but rather 500, or 411 in Ether's assumption regarding Mia.

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58 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:11 am

I'd take the time to read that post, but I'm not going to bother because it is full of "every unit should take approximately the same amount of BEXP", which is one of the things that is being argued as dumb. The counter argument is still that every unit should take the BEXP needed to perform well in a chapter, so long as it isn't a strain on the team. This means some units can ignore BEXP between chapters (or take way less than the 10% smash says they're entitled to) at times while others take more. And the positions of who needs BEXP can change for every chapter.


For example, Mia takes extra BEXP when she joins to get to a certain level of performance (assuming it isn't so much that I can't do the same for everyone else I want to). In the next chapter, if Mia doesn't get any new level of performance from taking BEXP, she won't bother with it, so I can give more to someone else who does get to a new level of performance. The most is gotten out of BEXP this way.

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59 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:39 am

The counter argument is still that every unit should take the BEXP needed to perform well in a chapter, so long as it isn't a strain on the team. This means some units can ignore BEXP between chapters (or take way less than the 10% smash says they're entitled to) at times while others take more. And the positions of who needs BEXP can change for every chapter.

For example, Mia takes extra BEXP when she joins to get to a certain level of performance (assuming it isn't so much that I can't do the same for everyone else I want to). In the next chapter, if Mia doesn't get any new level of performance from taking BEXP, she won't bother with it, so I can give more to someone else who does get to a new level of performance. The most is gotten out of BEXP this way.

To expand on nflchamp's point, take Chapter 8 as an example, where I will create a mini-tier list for BEXP purposes in order to make my point here. People higher on the tier list help completion the most in this chapter with BEXP.

High tier:

* Boyd -- 3-4 levels of BEXP allow him to ORKO immediately with a forge, which is huge for stomping this level.

Mid tier:

* Oscar -- it requires too much BEXP to make Oscar ORKO, even with a forge, since his STR is low and his lances don't have WTA, but 2-4 levels of BEXP allows him to double more reliably with stronger weapons and 1-2 range, which helps a lot.

* Mia -- 3-4 levels worth of BEXP allow her to 2RKO/3HKO Armors with the Armorslayer, and easily double many guys with with Iron Blade that you just got. This transforms defending the west side from an "ohmygodohmygod" situation, to one where she and Ike can make headway and plow their way right through it to Ilyana and beyond.

Low tier:

* Soren -- a few levels will let him reliably double with Wind and sometimes even Fire, which is helpful. Unfortunately his utility with BEXP is limited, since it's not safe to put someone with his durability in a position to have much Enemy Phase activity. Regardless, it helps to be able ot have him around to ORKO on PP.

* Titania -- if you were a dumbass and didn't give her boss kills, or she got RNG-screwed, she might not have enough STR to ORKO the Paladin-bomb with a Hand Axe, and some BEXP might enable this. Giving her the STR to do this is nice, because it enables her to kill the boss on Turn 2 without endangering anyone, which in turn leaves her free to help anyone she wants.

* Ike -- his gains are small, and he's capped at 20 until Ch. 18, so BEXP'ing him here gives you minimal benefits while hurting your army's growth long-term.

Garbage tier:

* Rhys -- BEXP on Rhys is like throwing it into a black hole. He can't counter, his durability doesn't get good, and at best you get +2 on heals for every three levels you give him, the need for which is completely obliterated by the existance of the Mend Staff.

Now, someone might say that Rhys not using his share of BEXP is an advantage for him, because he can give it to someone else. This is obscene. All that it means is that Rhys' contributions with BEXP are so anemic that the chances of him being a greater cost to the army with it than without it are extremely high. Rhys is not a fighter like Titania, who is also fairly poor on returns with BEXP, so it's not as if he's displacing another combatant to begin with -- he is a healer.

Horsedick.MPEG wrote:Which means, for Mia's case, I'm seeing her being something like 20/2, 20/3 if she's lucky, by chapter 18. And if you were to reduce her BEXP usage to 411, her level would drop to 20/1 or 20/2.

Mia's starting level is only 1 behind Nephenee's, and she arrives Ch. 7 to Nephenee's Ch. 11. Mia also has some clutch chapters where she can do things that other units have trouble with, like doubling ravens in Ch. 12 and 13 and 15, and fighting down on the beach in Ch. 9.

Shit, man, I'm up to Ch. 15 in my Mist playthrough right now, and Mia is tied with Marcia for highest level, simply because laguz-stomping in the prior three chapters gave them a sizable kill lead. BEXP is going into Oscar and Boyd and Jill for the most part, to keep their levels up to snuff for ORKO'ing.

Mia is on target for hitting 20/4-20/5 by Ch. 18. Again. I did give her more than the ~350 BEXP to get her to level 10 in Ch. 8, but only to top off almost-levels in base (like I do for everyone else), and to prep her for doubling Ravens in Ch. 12.

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60 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:34 pm

nflchamp wrote:I'd take the time to read that post, but I'm not going to bother because it is full of "every unit should take approximately the same amount of BEXP", which is one of the things that is being argued as dumb. The counter argument is still that every unit should take the BEXP needed to perform well in a chapter, so long as it isn't a strain on the team. This means some units can ignore BEXP between chapters (or take way less than the 10% smash says they're entitled to) at times while others take more. And the positions of who needs BEXP can change for every chapter.

For example, Mia takes extra BEXP when she joins to get to a certain level of performance (assuming it isn't so much that I can't do the same for everyone else I want to). In the next chapter, if Mia doesn't get any new level of performance from taking BEXP, she won't bother with it, so I can give more to someone else who does get to a new level of performance. The most is gotten out of BEXP this way.

...okay? This still doesn't change the fact that units should not be consuming more than ~10% of the BEXP overall. Reikken early on in this topic basically nailed it on the head. Int turned Mia from one of his lowest level units to his highest level unit that isn't named Titania. Which means Mia got some favoritism down the line.

BTW, lewl @ anyone who tries to hype Mia's performance in ch 12. There are only like 2 ravens attacking us at any given time and we have 10 guys waiting to assrape them. Even if Mia can one round them, it hardly matters as I can just have 4-5 guys wail on a raven. It's like why bosses hardly matter, because most of them don't move and you can just gang up on them with sheer numbers. Of course these ravens do move, but they come in such small groups it's basically the same thing.

BTW, for anyone who actually doesn't believe I've put my calculations into practice, I never have anyone actually above 20/3 or 20/4 aside from the prepromos who start at that level or higher. It's usually my units like Oscar and Kieran and Boyd who are around 20/3-20/4, with other lower level units like Jill and Neph being 20/1.

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61 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:02 pm

Horsedick.MPEG wrote:
nflchamp wrote:I'd take the time to read that post, but I'm not going to bother because it is full of "every unit should take approximately the same amount of BEXP", which is one of the things that is being argued as dumb. The counter argument is still that every unit should take the BEXP needed to perform well in a chapter, so long as it isn't a strain on the team. This means some units can ignore BEXP between chapters (or take way less than the 10% smash says they're entitled to) at times while others take more. And the positions of who needs BEXP can change for every chapter.

For example, Mia takes extra BEXP when she joins to get to a certain level of performance (assuming it isn't so much that I can't do the same for everyone else I want to). In the next chapter, if Mia doesn't get any new level of performance from taking BEXP, she won't bother with it, so I can give more to someone else who does get to a new level of performance. The most is gotten out of BEXP this way.

...okay? This still doesn't change the fact that units should not be consuming more than ~10% of the BEXP overall. I don't really care if my units are supposed to get 30 BEXP a chapter, but someone like Mia decides to take a little extra in one chapter and skips her BEXP for the next several chapters.

I do, however, have issues if units are consistently taking more BEXP, or EXP in general. Reikken early on in this topic basically nailed it on the head. Int turned Mia from one of his lowest level units to his highest level unit that isn't named Titania.

BTW, for anyone who actually doesn't believe I've put my calculations into practice, I never have anyone actually above 20/3 or 20/4 aside from the prepromos who start at that level or higher. It's usually my units like Oscar and Kieran and Boyd who are around 20/3-20/4, with other lower level units like Jill and Neph being 20/1.

Then again, when I'm basing something on my experiences, I get cries of PEMN, while if Int is basing something on his experiences, it's the word of Barragan God.

I think you are missing the point that giving 10% of your bexp to every unit (based on total bexp given during the whole game / total bexp collected) is not necessarily the most efficient way of going about things. If it was, then you'd have a point. It's not, so you don't. (Not to mention the tier list doesn't have a rule stating 10 unit teams. And how it is not a "fact" that no unit should consume more than 10% bexp overall.) The idea here is that if a unit hits a temporary wall (or almost wall) in a given chapter then giving them more bexp is pointless. Since you happen to have the bexp to get all your units up to a good wall, it seems like a plan to do so. Maybe we should call it the plateau argument. Whatever, the point is that each unit faces a plateau for a given chapter. It's usually a case where 1 or 2 levels lower and they go from ORKOing 80% of the map to 30% or some major drop like that (3RKOing to 3HKOing and new doubling, for example, is another possibility). We call it a plateau because taking them from level x-2 to level x provides a significant boost to your team's overall ability for that chapter. However taking that same unit from level x to even level x+3 would maybe take them from 80% to 83% because they ORKO one more enemy. But to do that you would have another unit or two incapable of reaching their plateau. For example, since you get more out of getting Boyd + Oscar + Mia to Int's level of ability in chapter 8 than you get out of giving Mia zilch and pushing Oscar's level up an extra 2 or 3, the plateau argument allows a reasonable person to see how to optimally distribute bexp for that chapter.

See, one of the things your argument comes down to is the idea that what is done for Mia (giving her some extra bexp in chapter 8 and chapter 12 to make her good for us) can be done for anybody. This isn't true. At least, not with the amount given to Mia. You aren't achieving this kind of performance increase on most other units with this amount of bexp.

You may notice that after chapter 12 the units taking much bexp to maintain a level of ORKOing were Boyd/Oscar/Jill, not Mia. Her level became inflated from being able to double ravens with the laguz slayer and thus have better anti-laguz offence than just about anybody else. It didn't become inflated solely because of bexp. Which means that while she took some extra bexp early on to reach a better performance level than she'd have otherwise, her being the highest level is partly a result of battle capability in certain chapters rather than solely a result of taking bexp.

And it usually isn't cries of PEMN that are used against you. It's cries of your strategies or tactics being inefficient and thus the conclusions derived from your tactics being irrelevant in a tier list about efficiency. Whether we are right or not is technically up in the air.

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62 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:16 pm

I personally don't think that "Titania as a threat" is enough to put her in her own tier.

I don't know what this is even supposed to mean.

Giving up kills to other people is a useful shorthand way of demonstrating that she starts out good, but Titania has to be killing things to actually help you with completing the game efficiently.

The point is that she doesn't need ANY EXP to outperform your team for about a third of the game, and with just boss kills (which she's the best at doing as we've already established), she's going to continue to do so for even longer.

She actually does require early kills to reach optimal performance even in the earlygame. Consider the example of Chapter 8 that I offered in post #14, where a few levels give her the STR to ORKO the Paladin-bomb with a Hand Axe. That's crazy useful for that chapter, since it frees her up on Turn 2 to do anything you want with her, but it does require that you give her the early boss kills or otherwise BEXP her a little bit.

We're not arguing about who's the best with a metric ton of resources, otherwise the tier list would have a little [IP] tag next to it.

A long, long time ago, in a tier list far, far away, Titania wasn't considered the best unit in the game by a majority of people on tiers. "She gets less EXP!" they said. "She doesn't grow as fast as other units!" they cried.

"However," the man said, "Does this really matter? If she is superior if both get no kills, and continues to be superior with an equal amount of kills (which she got easier as her bases are better), how can she be considered inferior?"

"But," the group replied, "Units such as Oscar and Ike grow faster! Surely this is a better expenditure of our resources!"

"Yes," the man answered, "It is. However, why should Titania be punished again for gaining EXP slower? This disadvantage already shows up in her lower stat gain. The point of FE is to kill enemies and not die, not to gain EXP. If Titania is killing enemies better and surviving better when given an equal or lesser amount of kills, surely she is the superior unit."

The group found this sound, but this still felt wrong! Titania was a Jeigan, after all. Jeigans aren't the best unit in the game! "But she falls behind eventually if she gets no experience!"

"Of course she does. All units do. The point is not that she requires no kills to be good. The point is that she starts out 2000EXP ahead of the rest of your team, and thus by using her instead of another unit, you get that much CEXP to spread amongst the rest of your team, and yet she is not inferior to the unit she is replacing. However, even if you decide to use her as though she were any other unit, she would still be the best, as she would consume EXP like any other unit, and continue to outperform. As you can see, in all situations, Titania is clearly the best unit in the game."

But how does this apply to Mia, you ask?

Kills are resources, as kills give EXP. Thus, this situation is applicable to BEXP, supports, items, and skills.

Mia is not the best user of BEXP or Wrath. While you may argue that she sees the most gain, this is quite irrelevant, as we are not trying to determine who should get what resource in a given team of units. We are trying to see who makes the team the strongest. Mia takes away BEXP, Mia takes away kills, Mia takes away skills, and Mia takes away weapons. And for what? A unit who is merely on par? What good is this? I could have used Stefan or Zihark or Muarim instead and gotten a FAR superior unit with that much BEXP and those skills.

But no, apparently this doesn't matter. Mia needs it more. Unfortunately, you've missed the entire point. The key phrase. The obvious flaw.

She needs it.

To use Mia as you have suggested is to hinder the performance of the rest of your team for a unit who isn't even amazing after she receives the resources.

You said Mia's "raping" in your low man team. Of course she is. Low man teams by definition get more resources than higher man teams. She's probably used up enough resources for two units considering how overlevelled she is.

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63 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:19 pm

I don't see how this is about improving Mia's individual performance. Seems to me like it boosts the performance of the team overall. We frequently state that we do things because it improves the team as a whole, not because it makes Mia OMGAMAZING and we like that.

And not that I'm agreeing with you or anything about Mia "needing" certain things and being useless without them, but if Mia needs something, and it takes almost nothing away from the team if we provide her with it, then I'm not seeing a reason to consider her without it. This isn't in reference to wrath, since even though I maintain she's the optimal user if she is on the field I'm not foolish enough to believe she gets it for free, but it is in reference to the bexp.

Having Oscar double one less enemy on a map in order to make Mia double everything isn't exactly something to cry about. And considering how many units you have that double ravens (try none without x bexp on Mia or y bexp on Zihark, y > x), she may not be "amazing" after the expense, but it is certainly worth doing.

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64 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:44 pm

I don't know what this is even supposed to mean.

Titania is useful for game completion because of what she does, not what she doesn't do. It's pretty straightforward.

The point is that she doesn't need ANY EXP to outperform your team for about a third of the game, and with just boss kills (which she's the best at doing as we've already established), she's going to continue to do so for even longer.

That's not really a point, that's just a fact. Titania doesn't really need any EXP to do well aside from what's already been stipulated, aka boss kills. I guess you're trying to make the "point" that Titania is good because she doesn't need kills to be powerful, but it's a nonsense point. Rhys doesn't need kills, either. Titania is good because she's a ORKO'ing machine and never dies (at first).

There is no need to go into hypotheticals about Titania giving up kills to other people. We already know how to grow units, and the cost for doing so.

No shit she's not at her individual optimal performance if she's not getting EXP. But we're not arguing about who's the best with a metric ton of resources, otherwise the tier list would have a little [IP] tag next to it (although that would resolve all my complaints about your FE9 and 10 tier list, but that's another story).

This is an efficiency tier list, not an [IP] tier list. That means that there's a huge difference between "optimal Titania", and "Titania with everything".

As a matter of fact, I can say right now that RD Mia would probably do fairly average on an [IP] tier list. If I'm understanding the methodology correctly, I'd be giving Speedwings/Drops/Dracos out the wazoo at no cost to whoever was being compared, which I expect would put units like Titania in Jesus Tier since she'd ORKO damn near everything at 100% HIT with 9MV and Canto and never die. Mia would be relying on proc rates and thus have shaky early chapters while she built up her STR.

But how does this apply to Mia, you ask?

Kills are resources, as kills give EXP. Thus, this situation is applicable to BEXP, supports, items, and skills.

All of those things are different in their own way. Giving someone a kill has a different effect on efficiency than giving someone BEXP (we have to set up kills), which is different from supports (which have dual opportunity cost in the form of denying a partner to someone else, as well as forcing that partner on the field), etc. We can't make blanket assumptions about all resources based on one type of resource.

Mia is not the best user of BEXP or Wrath. While you may argue that she sees the most gain, this is quite irrelevant, as we are not trying to determine who should get what resource in a given team of units. We are trying to see who makes the team the strongest. Mia takes away BEXP, Mia takes away kills, Mia takes away skills, and Mia takes away weapons. And for what? A unit who is merely on par? What good is this? I could have used Stefan or Zihark or Muarim instead and gotten a FAR superior unit with that much BEXP and those skills.

Suppose for the sake of argument that Mia's team has Mia deployed, and that Mia can be objectively proven to gain more from Wrath than any other unit that could possibly be deployed alongside her. I don't mean to say that she's the best with it, just that the overall strength of the army benefits more when Mia is deployed if you give it to her, rather than you gave it to any other of her un-named companions.

It's true that Mia taking Wrath is a cost for her army, but not giving it to her at all would make the army weaker. It's funny, but it's true, with the stipulation that nobody benefits as much as she does, which means for a real-life situation it's necessary to prove that stipulation.

Now, naturally whoever she's being compared against has their own army, and they can put Wrath wherever (and wherever might even be Mia). So therefore, Mia w/Wrath can be facing a net loss here if she's not actually a good unit. But, these are the sorts of things that we take into account for comparisons. As much as Wrath is a cost for her to take, the cost is greater for not taking it.

This is really not to be disputed, it's quite logical. You seem to be under the impression that Mia's tier position is based on her use of Wrath: you are wrong.

To use Mia as you have suggested is to hinder the performance of the rest of your team for a unit who isn't even amazing after she receives the resources.

Not really. Mia is not so bad, nor is BEXP so scarce, that such a thing actually happens. Mia with a dump to get to 10 is fairly decent, exceptional even in some chapters, and since doing that does not pauper the heavy lifters (Boyd, Titania, Jill, OScar, Kieran, etc), the argument that she's hindering the performance of your team does not really have any traction.

Why not? Because of how the game works. Much like like low-manning is more efficient than full deployment, there is a limiter at the other end, too: splitting BEXP to get several units to optimal performance is better than overpowering a select couple of them, because you need a critical mass of units in order to be maximially effective in this game.

Now, I am not claiming to have discovered the most optimal playstyle. As a matter of fact, I discovered inefficiencies in my first recent run that I eliminated in my second one. However, I am pretty confident that what I've laid out is very efficient (given the stipluation that I MUST deploy Mia in order to properly measure what she does), and that's why I give so many details to people, and defend the conclusions that I draw from my data.

You said Mia's "raping" in your low man team. Of course she is. Low man teams by definition get more resources than higher man teams. She's probably used up enough resources for two units considering how overlevelled she is.

The team is raping. Mia specifically is only raping the units that she does exceedingly well on, such as Ravens and anything else that she 2HKO's.

You would be incorrect, although this isn't the first time nor do I expect it to be the last.

That's all well and good, but this tier list is allegedly based on efficient game completion, overcoming the game's challenges speedily and safely. Since resources are limited, that gives certain units a stronger hand to play with, but since they are limited less than other FE's in the case of Bonus EXP (which allows us to so easily and cheaply eradicate slow starts, as well as deflty bump up any unit to a specific platform of performance at any given moment), the units who are decent and around for a long time will inevitably top the list.

Currently, the list does not reflect the copious amounts of BEXP in this game, and the effect on a lot of the units on the list, but that can change. It started with Mia, it won't end with her.

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65 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:21 pm

Horsedick.MPEG wrote:Which means Mia got some favoritism down the line.


For all intents and purposes, "favoritism" is dead. Everything has a cost, so long has that cost is reflected within the tier list there isn't any problems.



In other words, with respect to Mia and BEXP, unless you show that Mia taking more than 10% of the teams BEXP upon joining can hurt efficiency, your argument holds no ground.

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66 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:48 pm

Having someone who can reliably ORKO in Ch. 12 basically shaves turns off your total, since the last living Raven will suicide into Mia on Enemy Phase, and then the map is over (no more reinforcements) because it's a Rout. I think only an over-levelled Marcia can do this as fast or faster. IF you can't kill the Raven on its divebomb, now you have to wait.

Notice how smash spends 13 turns on that chapter (see: Mist staff example). I cleared it faster than the BEXP limit (limit is 9 turns), because the Ravens went down as quickly as possible. Mia is 3-4HKO'ed in this chapter, at non-guaranteed hit rates, so she's doing adequately durability-wise and can self-heal. She was basically perched on the prow of the ship like Captain Morgan, and ravens flew into her to die.

We are, after all, measuring efficiency and speed, and Mia contributes to both here. It is not an epic win or anything, but it's another Inconvenient Truth<tm> for the people who think that she's a crappy unit.

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67 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:08 am

Notice how smash spends 13 turns on that chapter (see: Mist staff example), presumably since he doesn't know what he's doing.

According to the list of enemies in an FAQ on gamefaqs (the one here http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/920189/39637)...

Dropped items:
1 Seraph robe (2 if you're on hard mode)
1 Laguz stone
1 Arms Scroll
3 Coin
2 Secret Book
1 Blue Gem dropped by Seeker the boss

Reinforcements:
1 crow appears at the bottom right during turn 3.
1 crow appears at the top right and 1 at the bottom right during turn
5.
1 crow appears at the left during turn 7.
1 crow appears at the right during turn 9.
1 crow appears at the bottom right during turn 11.
1 crow appears at the top right during turn 13. A second appears at
the bottom left on hard mode only.


I'm assuming that the raven that appears on turn 13 on hard mode only is the raven with the second angelic robe, which means there is a point in prolonging the chapter. I'm guessing prog ended the chapter too quickly to get the other ravens.

Although that doesn't explain why smash only counted 10 ravens, since Ask_B_007 has 14 listed. That wouldn't make much of an impact on the exp his units gained, though. essentially half a raven per character. meh.

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68 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:35 am

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69 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:14 am

the great haar wrote:I'm assuming that the raven that appears on turn 13 on hard mode only is the raven with the second angelic robe, which means there is a point in prolonging the chapter. I'm guessing prog ended the chapter too quickly to get the other ravens
You're not going to save 5 turns later on in the game with a second Angelic Robe. A wait strategy impedes speedy completion.


Soren > Mia.
This belongs in a new thread, I think.

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70 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:11 am

Mekkah

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Admin
Well, this is a general Mia topic, so I don't mind it much. But a new thread can be made, it's not like we're cramped for space here!

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71 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:44 am

Well, I was just thinking about what you said WRT to keeping arguments from stepping on each other. This thread is, imo, about justifying Mia's position in general. Burying a Soren argument on page 2 means we won't be able to find it easily later.

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72 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:30 am

Horsedick.MPEG wrote:...okay? This still doesn't change the fact that units should not be consuming more than ~10% of the BEXP overall.

The concept of giving every unit ~10% BEXP has been thoroughly repudiated in this thread and others. Firstly because unit deployment does not evenly split into 10 units at all times, and secondly because the effect of BEXP on specific units varies widely (aka, they also have widely different impacts on efficient game completion).

Reikken early on in this topic basically nailed it on the head. Int turned Mia from one of his lowest level units to his highest level unit that isn't named Titania.

There is a reason that Mia ended up higher level (actually, two reasons), and both are environmental. The first reason is that intentionally making her higher level gives the army a bump in the following chapter, since Mia gets a big boost as the sole doubler, and nobody else really improves over what they are already doing. The second reason is a result of the first: Mia is better at taking kills in efficient play, so she tends to maintain her level lead, at least for the time being.

BTW, lewl @ anyone who tries to hype Mia's performance in ch 12. There are only like 2 ravens attacking us at any given time and we have 10 guys waiting to assrape them. Even if Mia can one round them, it hardly matters as I can just have 4-5 guys wail on a raven. It's like why bosses hardly matter, because most of them don't move and you can just gang up on them with sheer numbers. Of course these ravens do move, but they come in such small groups it's basically the same thing.

Fast clear is only really possible if you eliminate the last Raven before the final set of reinforcements, which is really hard for someone who is not Mia (or Marcia perhaps, since she fails to ORKO but can fly out).

BTW, for anyone who actually doesn't believe I've put my calculations into practice, I never have anyone actually above 20/3 or 20/4 aside from the prepromos who start at that level or higher. It's usually my units like Oscar and Kieran and Boyd who are around 20/3-20/4, with other lower level units like Jill and Neph being 20/1.

The problem is the disconnect between your "calculations" and reality. You do silly things like divide the number of kills in a chapter by the deployed units, give everyone a hit and a kill, and assume that's the CEXP that they get. Hardly any of your comparisons reflect the reality of specific chapters in this game, like how Soren magically got five levels in Chs. 4, 5, and 6, when the first is a <4 turn boss kill Titania assassination, the second is a Defend map in FoW where he can't take two hits, and the third is a balls-out run to the Arrive, where he can't even keep up with Ike and Boyd, never mind Oscar and Titania. You have to be moving almost at his full rate just to get there by turn 7-8.

Level 6 in Ch. 7? In an efficient playthrough? Please share your wisdom with us.

The difference between what I did and what you did is that I gave enough data for people to reproduce my experiences (aka, it's well known at this point that I use Fixed mode and get Boyd/Oscar/Mia to level 10 in Ch. 8 ), and explain why I did what I did where it's pertinent. When I aborted the PT at Ch. 18, I gave a tally of everyone level/EXP and that BEXP that I had left over.

The difference is that my assertions about performance and levels are falsifiable.

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73 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:15 pm

the great haar wrote:Did you even read what smash said?

Smash is implicitly acknowledging that his levels sandbag either Mia, or sandbag Soren, or both. What is the value of the comparison, then? If he wants to be accurate, he should put Soren and Mia at levels are are appropriate for optimal performance in the armies that they are members of, and then account for the disparity in the costs of doing so for either of them (Soren takes more BEXP initially, just so that you know).

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74 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:22 pm

BTW, want to assume higher levels for them? Go right ahead. I'll just let you know that it's more beneficial for Soren, however, as Mia's AS is already overkill, while Soren's AS helps push him above higher thresholds, and Soren has a much higher att growth (60 to 40) while having comparable durability growths (45 HP, 15 def to 50 HP, 20 def).

Mia can ORKO Ravens? She'd have to be at least 15/0 to do that since laguzslayer weighs her down and she has 17 AS at that point (note that some ravens have more than 13 AS). If Soren was 15/0, he'd have 18.4 att/12.35 AS with Elwind, which means he's actually borderline ORKOing soldiers, and ORKOs archers with relative ease. Mia with a steel sword at 15/0 has 19.6 att, so she falls short on them aside from a few archers.

Considering the ravens rarely even attack you in ch 13 while these soldiers and such do, I consider these enemies more threatening than ravens.

So like Int said, how is Soren level 6 by chapter 7? That's 5 levels in 3 interesting chapters for him. As Int said, Chapter 4 is kill boss and a whole 4 turns long. Chapter 5 is 6 turns long. Chapter 6 should be no more than 9 turns long, and Soren has issues keeping up if you want to be fast (under 9 is better than 9). Still, 19 turns max. And in those 19 turns (6 of which in fog of war) Soren gets 5 levels.

Mia has chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 before chapter 13. 54 turns. 42 not counting Chapter 10. Also that's using 10 turns for chapter 7 rather than 11 because of when she shows up. Sure, that can go down a bit if you are fast, but then so does chapter 6. Anyway, 19 turns vs. 54 or 42.

Let's just analyze what she needs to hit level 12 assuming stealth in chapter 10. Well, by Smash's own rules, she gets 10% of the bexp. 2600 bexp so far just from finishing on time. Another 700 if you stealth chapter 10. Possibly 250 from not killing vigilantes. That's 3550. Mia gets 355 according to Smash's rules. Say you want to make it as expensive as possible for Mia. So she gets the bexp in the base of chapter 13. Using it earlier as she is leveling converts bexp into more real exp, but this calculation is easier to do and makes Mia's situation worse than reality anyway.

11.99 to 12 = 2 bexp.
10.99 to 11.99 = 105 bexp
9.99 to 10.99 = 103 bexp
8.99 to 9.99 = 100 bexp
45 bexp remains. That gets her from 8.54 to 8.99.

So somehow in 42 turns she only goes from level 6 to 8.54.
Now reduce that in half because that is how much time Soren has in his chapters without Mia.

Soren should therefore start at level ~2.27 in chapter 7 and have a really long way to go to reach Mia's level 6. (So there is no possible way to explain them both being the same level in chapter 12 or beyond, either.)

But he gave Soren 5 levels. So let's give Mia 10 since it's over twice the turns. So she's now level 16 in chapter 13 before bexp. Apply bexp and she pretty easily doubles Ravens back in chapter 12.


This glazes over a few things like level difference between characters and enemies and number of enemies per chapter but it should be rather obvious that either Soren is not reaching level 6 by chapter 7 or Mia w/ a reasonable amount of bexp is doubling the ravens in chapters 12 and 13 (edit: or both). Just think, with a reasonable number of cexp levels (unlike the 10 levels that consistency would give her) and just 1/8th bexp she should already be doubling.


Also he jumped from chapter 7 to chapter 13, which is questionable.

He then jumped to chapter 18, and from there to chapter 23, so what's your point? Are you saying he should've done a chapter-by-chapter comparison?

Did you see my Gatrie vs. Mia in RD comparison? I went through (edit: all of) 3-P to 3-7 (edit: in excruciating detail) before skipping ahead to 3-11 or 3-E. So I did a fair amount more than he did. And I used more reasonable levels along the way. And I only jumped from 3-7 until her promotion or the appearance of silver blades because the comparison stayed the exact same during that time frame. And I only skipped a small number of chapters. (edit: also look at my Sanaki vs. Pelleas comparison. Those are what we call proper comparisons between characters. Not smash's snapshots with unrealistic levels that are favourable to Smash's character of the moment.)

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75 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:47 pm

Why do we assume stealth in Ch. 10, anyway?

You lose out on 700 BEXP, sure, but you gain BEXP on the other side. You do not, for instance, run over the 12 turn limit, so there's that. Also -- and this may depend on how people stealth -- you can easily get the full bonus for escaping a full deployment worth of dudes. Plus there's 21 generic guys to kill for CEXP, the healers get staff CEXP from the fighting, and the boss both gives boss kill EXP and drop a Master Seal.

The only way I could see a China Shop clear being worse than a Metal Gear Solid clear is if most of the people you intend to use in your army aren't availible yet (so they would not benefit from the CEXP).

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76 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:13 pm

Interceptor wrote:Why do we assume stealth in Ch. 10, anyway?

You lose out on 700 BEXP, sure, but you gain BEXP on the other side. You do not, for instance, run over the 12 turn limit, so there's that. Also -- and this may depend on how people stealth -- you can easily get the full bonus for escaping a full deployment worth of dudes. Plus there's 21 generic guys to kill for CEXP, the healers get staff CEXP from the fighting, and the boss both gives boss kill EXP and drop a Master Seal.

The only way I could see a China Shop clear being worse than a Metal Gear Solid clear is if most of the people you intend to use in your army aren't availible yet (so they would not benefit from the CEXP).
I have once stealth cleared it on turn 12 with a boss kill, so it's definitely possible. I didn't get everyone out nor did I open all the chests (the ones left weren't worth it), but I personally like the massive BEXP.

And I still love how he's constantly feeding bexp to Mist when she does nothing with it.
I haven't mentioned this until now, but I've never seen why we shouldn't. According to Interceptor, he had enough BEXP left to make Nephenee go from base level to 20/1, why can't we spare enough for Mist to catch up? All she really takes is initial dump at Ch 10 or 11 to level 6 or 7 and she should easily promote by Ch 17 or 18, and it doesn't harm the rest of the team.

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77 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:35 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:I have once stealth cleared it on turn 12 with a boss kill, so it's definitely possible. I didn't get everyone out nor did I open all the chests (the ones left weren't worth it), but I personally like the massive BEXP.
I'll try it some time, I guess. If it's possible to consistently rescue everyone and kill the boss within 12 turns, I can see the argument that the MGS clear is superior. Any levels that I would have gotten for Boyd/Oscar/Mia/Soren can come from the BEXP.

Of course, you know what this means: that my PT still has inefficiencies, and there's more performance to squeeze out of it.

I haven't mentioned this until now, but I've never seen why we shouldn't.
Just because nobody seems to remember this, I said this on page 1: "Whenever I get back to PoR, I'm going to see if it's possible to raise a good team whilst making Mist a capable fighter by Ch. 18. It might be possible".

According to Interceptor, he had enough BEXP left to make Nephenee go from base level to 20/1, why can't we spare enough for Mist to catch up? All she really takes is initial dump at Ch 10 or 11 to level 6 or 7 and she should easily promote by Ch 17 or 18, and it doesn't harm the rest of the team.
Well, it's a matter of army configuration. Also, don't forget that Ch. 17 gives me 700 BEXP for the clear, which is a large chunk of Nephenee's take (only 821 was banked from other chapters).

I was going to sit on the data for a little bit, but there are too many distracting shiny objects for me to finish PoR soon. I finally discovered a setup where BEXP actually runs low (not out, but low). My current lineup is thus: Ike, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Rhys, Soren, Mia, Marcia, Mist, Jill.

As before, there are eight combatants. However, 3-4 of these units require considerable amounts of BEXP, Oscar/Boyd are not slouches in that department, and everyone except Titania needs BEXP maintenence in order to keep rocking.

In Chapter 15 atm I only have a few hundred BEXP left (I'd need to load up the save to check the exact number), and Mist is 7.07 from staffbombing (staff bombing so much, in fact, that she has stopped contributing to completion and is making Rhys do all of the work). I could probably give Mist a few levels at this point, and not needlessly hinder the army. The BEXP basically does nothing for her, though, until the Sonic Sword, so even minute increases in my efficiency by giving this BEXP to a combatant will put her in the hole BEXP-wise until Chapter 18.

So far though, this team is really good. Unlike last run, I have a flier this time for Ch. 15. Two of them, in fact. Marcia is level 20, and about to start this chapter with a fresh Laguz lance. Jill is behind, but pretty good. Sayonara, furballs.

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78 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:49 pm

Did you? Smash is implicitly acknowledging that his levels sandbag either Mia, or sandbag Soren, or both. What is the value of the comparison, then? If he wants to be accurate, he should put Soren and Mia at levels are are appropriate for optimal performance in the armies that they are members of, and then account for the disparity in the costs of doing so for either of them (Soren takes more BEXP initially, just so that you know).

If smash compared Soren and Mia in a certain scenario and Soren was winning, and if you say Soren and Mia are supposed to be at a higher level where Soren would still be winning, what's the problem?

That's like taking Titania beating Ike when they both got the same number of kills, and complaining that Titania is better off if she didn't take as many kills. If Titania is winning in a certain scenario, and you say that in reality Titania would improve more than Ike by doing a certain thing, then Titania would still be the winner.


The problem is the disconnect between your "calculations" and reality. You do silly things like divide the number of kills in a chapter by the deployed units, give everyone a hit and a kill, and assume that's the CEXP that they get.

I don't see the problem with that. Splitting kills evenly is the fairest way to do a comparison, since if kills were always given based on performance within the chapter, low level units would never improve. A unit like Astrid would just remain awful the entire game, since her performance in chapter 13 is so poor she'd get 1 kill at best, which means she would remain awful for chapter 14, etc. Rather, you're better off babying her for a couple chapters (but not much, hence why she just gets the same number of kills as everyone else) so you get an asskicker for the rest of the game. How much babying is it would be up to debate.

Well, there are times when the units can't even reach enemies, like in FE10 part 3 where Oscar and Titania can't reach half of 3-4 or 3-7, but those are exceptions. In those situations they are forced to take less kills.

Although I don't agree with Soren doing that for chapters 4-6 for this specific matchup since that's bias for Soren, but smash stated that Soren at lvl 4-5 would still beat Mia in ch 7. If Soren gets a kill every other turn (not unlikely, as you have fewer PCs relative to the enemies going for kills), and because he's at a much lower level compared to the enemies (ch 4 enemies go up to level 7, for example), this can get him 3 levels already.

This would make Soren ~1 level lower at his chapter 13 comparison, but 1 level isn't going to make a big difference.


But he gave Soren 5 levels. So let's give Mia 10 since it's over twice the turns. So she's now level 16 in chapter 13 before bexp. Apply bexp and she pretty easily doubles Ravens back in chapter 12.

The number of kills you can get is based on the amount of enemies there are in the chapter, not how many turns there are (unless the chapter has a time limit, like chapter 5 or Cool.

And if Soren was around level 16 before BEXP in chapter 13 he would still be the winner. I'm pretty sure he could even be level 13 or 14 before BEXP in chapter 13 and still win. It doesn't matter. Sure, Mia will kill ravens, but Soren can kill almost everything else while Mia probably won't, and like smash said, the ravens hardly ever attack you while the other enemies do, so I would put more importance on that.

And speaking of chapter 13, there's a lot of chokepoints in the chapter, which means Soren can even attack more frequently without getting in the way because of 1-2 range.


Did you see my Gatrie vs. Mia in RD comparison? I went through (edit: all of) 3-P to 3-7 (edit: in excruciating detail) before skipping ahead to 3-11 or 3-E.

Going over every single chapter is overly time consuming. Just because you did it doesn't mean doing a comparison for every single chapter is necessary.

In a debate challenge, or someone who wants to open a can of worms in a tier topic, the person who opens typically does a comparison at a couple of different points in the game. This gives us a general idea of what the matchup is like, and if there is a disagreement, the other side responds, or brings up their own comparisons if they feel the opener's was biased. If there was an agreement, however, then both sides save time. (of course in a debate challenge there would be no agreement, since otherwise it wouldn't be a debate challenge).

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79 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:00 pm

Interceptor wrote:Why do we assume stealth in Ch. 10, anyway?

You lose out on 700 BEXP, sure, but you gain BEXP on the other side. You do not, for instance, run over the 12 turn limit, so there's that. Also -- and this may depend on how people stealth -- you can easily get the full bonus for escaping a full deployment worth of dudes. Plus there's 21 generic guys to kill for CEXP, the healers get staff CEXP from the fighting, and the boss both gives boss kill EXP and drop a Master Seal.

The only way I could see a China Shop clear being worse than a Metal Gear Solid clear is if most of the people you intend to use in your army aren't availible yet (so they would not benefit from the CEXP).

I can pull off a full deployment stealth exit with nearly 30 turns, but I can't imagine getting that with a 12 turn stealth. There is a gap of 2 squares that appears ever 4 turns or something like that. I don't think it's possible, even with 5 units with 8+ move and 3 of which have canto. 12 turns means probably only Ike and maybe a laguz and Titania get to exit, or something.

Anyway, I used stealth in my calculations because a lot of people assume stealth and it avoids the "what if you stealth?" question. Mia gets 2.54 levels in 42 turns assuming stealth (the other 3.46 comes from bexp), whereas without stealth it is around ~3.24 levels in 52 turns (the other 2.76 comes from bexp). So 3.24 levels x 19 turns / 52 instead of 2.54 levels x 19 turns / 42. I rounded the other one to 1/2 instead of 19/42 because I was being nice to Soren, so doing something similar means 3.24 x 2 / 5. Giving Soren slightly more exp, but still no more than level 2.3 in chapter 7. Well, either way it seems bad for him. About equally. 2.3 isn't far from 2.27. So he gets 1 level of growths before he competes with Mia directly either way.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
And I still love how he's constantly feeding bexp to Mist when she does nothing with it.

I haven't mentioned this until now, but I've never seen why we shouldn't. According to Interceptor, he had enough BEXP left to make Nephenee go from base level to 20/1, why can't we spare enough for Mist to catch up? All she really takes is initial dump at Ch 10 or 11 to level 6 or 7 and she should easily promote by Ch 17 or 18, and it doesn't harm the rest of the team.

Well, Int will see if it works. I'm mostly looking at it from a "what is going on in smash's theoretical playthrough" perspective. Every map he gives 10% each to 10 units (except apparently Mia, considering her chapter 13 level). So it's likely that one or more of them could get a level with the bexp that went to Mist. Mist with that bexp really isn't boosting efficiency like the others would be with the bexp lost.

I figure the way to make Mist work would be dump as much as you can afford on her in chapter 10 and 11 and then give her nothing until chapter 18 and push her as high as you can afford and the seal her. Hopefully she'll hit a high enough level to double lots with the sonic sword and have the mag to ORKO. I'm not sure if that's the best way, though. Anyway, with Mia's current position I think being partially based on her combat advantages over Volke and staves mostly canceling thief utility, this list probably assumes Mist reaches promotion around chapter 18 anyway.

Oh, and @Haar, the point is that Soren is not level 6 for chapter 6. Your extrapolations seem to assume that. I said with a "reasonable number of levels" ... I didn't say with 10. 10 is just what you get if you apply consistency to Soren somehow being level 6 for chapter 7.

More realistically he's probably 3 or 4, and Mia 6. Then as time goes on she maintains that level lead. Soren doesn't help the team as much with bexp as Mia, since his performance doesn't increase as much. At first she gets extra bexp. Then Mia needs less and Soren will probably take some to catch up when a new plateau is actually in sight.

Also she can afford more enemy phase exposure, so she's going to get more cexp along the way. Even with the same amounts of bexp she'll just pull a level lead anyway.

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80 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:25 pm

There is a stealth strategy floating around that doesn't involve going over the turn limit, or it goes over by a very small amount, IIRC.

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81 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 pm

dondon151 wrote:There is a stealth strategy floating around that doesn't involve going over the turn limit, or it goes over by a very small amount, IIRC.

It has like 2 units escape or something. I don't remember if it got all the items, though.

Still, escaped units only give 10 bexp each and this isn't Maniac Mode where Kieran/Brom/Neph have to escape in order to get them. I suppose it's not a problem. And Red Fox says the items she missed aren't worth it.

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82 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:38 pm

Well, to be more precise, at the time I didn't think they were worth it because of my team set-up, but I shouldn't be the one to decide that. I got the Statue Frag at the right of the map and I think I got one of the ones at the left on the last turn, probably the Short Axe or Counter scroll. I know I missed the Steel Lance and Javelin.

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83 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:42 pm

Oh, and @Haar, the point is that Soren is not level 6 for chapter 6. Your extrapolations seem to assume that. I said with a "reasonable number of levels" ... I didn't say with 10. 10 is just what you get if you apply consistency to Soren somehow being level 6 for chapter 7.

Although I don't agree with Soren doing that for chapters 4-6 for this specific matchup since that's bias for Soren, but smash stated that Soren at lvl 4-5 would still beat Mia in ch 7. If Soren gets a kill every other turn (not unlikely, as you have fewer PCs relative to the enemies going for kills), and because he's at a much lower level compared to the enemies (ch 4 enemies go up to level 7, for example), this can get him 3 levels already.

This would make Soren ~1 level lower at his chapter 13 comparison, but 1 level isn't going to make a big difference.



Soren doesn't help the team as much with bexp as Mia, since his performance doesn't increase as much.

How so?


Also she can afford more enemy phase exposure, so she's going to get more cexp along the way. Even with the same amounts of bexp she'll just pull a level lead anyway.

Techncially she can't, as Soren has 1-2 range, which means he ends up taking damage on player phase less frequently. If Soren is 2HKO'd but avoids player phase counters, and Mia is 3HKO'd but takes player phase counters, how is Mia better at taking hits overall? This would only matter if Mia had a healer locked to her hip the whole time.


And we'd still comment on the atrocious assumptions made in smash's post if someone else was doing it. Maybe we'd be less hostile, maybe not, but it doesn't change that we'd disagree.

I wasn't talking about attacking smash's comparisons, I was talking about how you and interceptor complained that smash didn't do enough comparisons when 4 is more than enough for opening a can of worms, when I have a feeling that if it were any other person who did 4 comparisons you wouldn't say anything.


And assuming each unit gets x/y kills when there are x enemies and y units on the field would cause inefficient play. There is really no getting around that. Whatever you may want out of a tier list, it doesn't matter if it's an inefficient strategy in a tier list about efficiency.

I can understand this if only one of the two units were around, or fighting. But if both units exist in a certain chapter, giving one unit a certain number of kills and giving the other unit a different amount of kills makes the comparison biased.

Suppose we did something like Neph vs Zihark. In chapter 12 Zihark is a better fighter, so he gets more kills than Neph, gains more levels and stats, and remains better. And in chapter 13 he gets more kills than Neph, gains more levels and stats...

Rather, Neph and Zihark will be getting the same number of kills regardless of performance. So while Zihark will let us go a little faster in the earlier chapters, eventually Neph will pass him and she will let us go faster in those chapters.

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84 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:03 pm

the great haar wrote:
Oh, and @Haar, the point is that Soren is not level 6 for chapter 6. Your extrapolations seem to assume that. I said with a "reasonable number of levels" ... I didn't say with 10. 10 is just what you get if you apply consistency to Soren somehow being level 6 for chapter 7.

Although I don't agree with Soren doing that for chapters 4-6 for this specific matchup since that's bias for Soren, but smash stated that Soren at lvl 4-5 would still beat Mia in ch 7. If Soren gets a kill every other turn (not unlikely, as you have fewer PCs relative to the enemies going for kills), and because he's at a much lower level compared to the enemies (ch 4 enemies go up to level 7, for example), this can get him 3 levels already.

This would make Soren ~1 level lower at his chapter 13 comparison, but 1 level isn't going to make a big difference.

I'm not seeing level 5, sorry. Level 4 is pushing it.
22 enemies in chapter 4. But it is 4 turns long and kill boss. Also Soren having 2 range means he may do more weakens than kills. Kills are only for attacking things that were weakened on enemy phase. If Soren and a 1 range unit are facing a fresh unit Soren is not getting the kill.

6 turns in chapter 5. Fog of war, so you can't even attack as freely with Soren. He's got 5 or 6 attacks in him.

Chapter 6 has 24 enemies, sure, but it's a long way to the exit and I fail to see how Soren keeps up.


Soren doesn't help the team as much with bexp as Mia, since his performance doesn't increase as much.

How so?

post 69.

Also she can afford more enemy phase exposure, so she's going to get more cexp along the way. Even with the same amounts of bexp she'll just pull a level lead anyway.

Techncially she can't, as Soren has 1-2 range, which means he ends up taking damage on player phase less frequently. If Soren is 2HKO'd but avoids player phase counters, and Mia is 3HKO'd but takes player phase counters, how is Mia better at taking hits overall? This would only matter if Mia had a healer locked to her hip the whole time.
First off, she'll finish units off in one hit sometimes. Also she can attack axe users and frequently dodge. I'd like to see Soren pull off what she can on the beach of chapter 9. And you have healers for a reason. You don't need a healer locked to her hip. Even if she just attacks something and gets hit back, there are times you'll have a healer available. Also, it means that she can move up with full hp and attack more on enemy phase. Soren and Mia don't have canto, so if they are only attacking nearby enemies they may fall behind. There are lots of times where being 3HKOd is significantly better than 2HKOd but attacking at 1-2 range. Also when they attack javelin/hand axe users (especially hand axe users) it gets more pronounced (unless you arrange a OHKO) since Soren is now down to OHKO range.

So technically, you are twisting things around again.


And we'd still comment on the atrocious assumptions made in smash's post if someone else was doing it. Maybe we'd be less hostile, maybe not, but it doesn't change that we'd disagree.

I wasn't talking about attacking smash's comparisons, I was talking about how you and interceptor complained that smash didn't do enough comparisons when 4 is more than enough for opening a can of worms, when I have a feeling that if it were any other person who did 4 comparisons you wouldn't say anything.
Our first issue is his levels. Our next issue is using chapter 13 jumps over chapters good for her like 9 and 12. Snapshots tend to do that. Especially ones specifically chosen to hurt Mia. Also skipped over chapter 15. Mia will easily have the level to double with laguzslayer by now. That's an entire map she doubles and he doesn't. Unless you want to tell me he's level 18/19 now.

Taking random snapshots with inaccurate levels that is designed to make Mia look worse is what we have an issue with. If he'd chosen proper levels and was better about the chapters chosen we wouldn't care as much. And then saying "oh yeah, give them more levels and it's the same" without even backing that up?


And assuming each unit gets x/y kills when there are x enemies and y units on the field would cause inefficient play. There is really no getting around that. Whatever you may want out of a tier list, it doesn't matter if it's an inefficient strategy in a tier list about efficiency.

I can understand this if only one of the two units were around, or fighting. But if both units exist in a certain chapter, giving one unit a certain number of kills and giving the other unit a different amount of kills makes the comparison biased.
Whether or not it makes the comparison biased, it happens to make the comparison more accurate for efficient play. If you like I can make a soviet tier list for inefficient play and you can debate about the characters' positions on that.


Suppose we did something like Neph vs Zihark. In chapter 12 Zihark is a better fighter, so he gets more kills than Neph, gains more levels and stats, and remains better. And in chapter 13 he gets more kills than Neph, gains more levels and stats...

Rather, Neph and Zihark will be getting the same number of kills regardless of performance. So while Zihark will let us go a little faster in the earlier chapters, eventually Neph will pass him and she will let us go faster in those chapters.

Um, how about bexp? If she's really jumping over his ability in a few levels, you have plenty of bexp. Jump her past her slow period.

Besides, if we have an "efficient" strategy that involves going 3 turns faster now that hurts characters important to our speed later and costs us 10 turns down the road, it isn't efficient. So I'm not sure why you think an overall efficient strategy would cause going slower in the end.


(edit: moved an apostrophe)

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85 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:50 pm

So, now that I am sitting in front of the Ch. 15 peoples, stats:

Ike: 14.05
Rhys: 9.22
Boyd: 19.30
Soren: 19.19
Oscar: 18.00
Mia: 20.53
Marcia: 20.66
Titania: 28.52
Mist: 7.07
Jill: 15.00

BEXP in the bank: 184P

No real room for free Mist levels in this playthrough, I'd wager. If I had given her any BEXP, I would have to scale back one or more people in this army. Might be different if I had gotten the stealth BEXP? I'll find out in another run.


EDIT: and just as a reminder, for the Panic Patrol, the reason that Mia and Marcia are so far ahead in level is basically because of Ravens. Ch. 13 always takes the same amount of time, so I left the SE chest alone until the last Player Phase, which gave me a bunch of Raven kills.


EDIT #2: wow, Marcia with a little push to promotion can just barely ORKO Maurim on Turn 2.

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86 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:10 pm

Wow, that was a huge pain in the ass.

I just cleared Ch. 10, getting as much of everything as possible. I got the stealth bonus, cleared it in 12 turns (max BEXP), got the Statue Frag, recruited everyone (Neph, Kieran, Brom), killed the boss, and got BEXP credit for two escapes. Can't find a way to get the Short Axe (only other thing here worth getting) without relying on luck, though.

I think that's about as good as I can get it. Just to do that, I had to pull shit like having Volke steal a door key and rescue-canto him out of range, and using Mord to Smite Oscar.

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87 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:30 pm

Interceptor wrote:Wow, that was a huge pain in the ass.

I just cleared Ch. 10, getting as much of everything as possible. I got the stealth bonus, cleared it in 12 turns (max BEXP), got the Statue Frag, recruited everyone (Neph, Kieran, Brom), killed the boss, and got BEXP credit for two escapes. Can't find a way to get the Short Axe (only other thing here worth getting) without relying on luck, though.

I think that's about as good as I can get it. Just to do that, I had to pull shit like having Volke steal a door key and rescue-canto him out of range, and using Mord to Smite Oscar.

Granted I took lots more turns than you (under 30 I think, though), but now try full deployment and full escape (including all partners) and all the chests, without ever being discovered.

That is "fun".

(The chapter would be so much easier if ORKOing those 3 guys would not get you discovered. The current form of the chapter is like the death attacks in ff6. Stupid Intangirs and their dying meteo (among other examples, like magimaster))

And getting all the items (including coins and Stefan) in the desert in chapter 15 while not killing anything but Muarim.

So many resets from screwups.

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88 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:31 pm

I don't know if it helps anybody but Ike doesn't have to talk to anybody to "recruit" them, opening the door does it.

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89 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:47 pm

bblader1 wrote:I don't know if it helps anybody but Ike doesn't have to talk to anybody to "recruit" them, opening the door does it.

My thing wasn't really going for efficiency. Just a personal challenge (plus the Japanese version makes you get all 3 to escape if you want them later). Like playing ToS on Hard (not Mania) and attempting to get the titles Eternal Apprentice, I Hate Gels, Friendship First, Gung Ho, and Brave Soul all in the same playthrough. (Did Magnius on normal, otherwise succeeded, though there were many many resets involved).


I suppose maybe it is faster if someone else opens the doors and Ike doesn't convo. Of course, I'm not sure which of the 3 Ike can even talk to. I know Kieran needs to talk to Oscar to go yellow.

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90 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:15 am

IOS wrote:
Interceptor wrote:
When I play PoR, I like to use my silver Wavebird with a smiley-face sticker on it. However, as with your personal playstyle, it doesn't really much much to do with tiering units by efficiency.

I am very sorry for being off topic, but that was one of the funniest things I've ever read in a tier discussion.

Just to be on topic, what weapons are we assuming Mia gets? Are we assuming that she gets exclusive swords like the Vague Katti and SS? Also, are we assuming that she is given wrath as well? Sorry I didn't read through all of the posts in the OP.

For her current tier position she doesn't really need either special swords or wrath. Or at least, not a free wrath. I think Cynthia may have been thinking about the possibility of wrath when she put Mia over Stefan (along with similar avo and def when both are around and also the availability difference). But her current position does not rely on free wrath or even having wrath every time she is deployed. As for swords, if you have someone with Wrath it seems kinda silly to give the Vague Katti to some unit that will be pulling 35% crit instead of a unit with 100% crit. Wastes the sword and means they may not kill anyway. With nobody having wrath she likely gets just as much access as anybody else that xHKOs with a killing edge and yHKOs with the vague katti. For a unit where x = y they don't need it as much (+5crit and +3def alone doesn't warrant the waste unless the killing edges are all broken), so at times Mia faces less competition than she would otherwise.

As for SS, it has been mentioned that SS goes decently with wrath as well, but I don't think anybody has seriously been assuming she'll get it.


Oh, and, if you liked that quote:
check this
The thread where smash says that Nephenee can't visit houses because she gets 3-4HKO'ed, is undoubtedly the greatest opportunity cost analysis of all time. I printed it out, folded it into a tri-corner pirate hat, and am currently wearing it as I type this.

Lots in the link, and I pulled out one that has something a little similar to the wavebird thing.


Then there is my personal favourite:
if he's objectively the best use of the resource and you only give it to him half the time when he's deployed, that suggests that around half the time you're a retard.

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91 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:59 am

Narga_Rocks wrote:Granted I took lots more turns than you (under 30 I think, though), but now try full deployment and full escape (including all partners) and all the chests, without ever being discovered.
Yeah... no. I'll take your word for it. I think that I've basically obtained as close to highest possible BEXP as can reasonably be expected while maximizing other resources, 1020 for the chapter.

Nephenee and Ike escaped, and it was actually pretty tricky to even get Nephenee out. I had to rescue her with Titania, drop her on the Escape square, have Ike Talk to her, Direct her, and then attack an Archer all in one go. The spacing was unforgiving for that manuever.

(The chapter would be so much easier if ORKOing those 3 guys would not get you discovered. The current form of the chapter is like the death attacks in ff6. Stupid Intangirs and their dying meteo (among other examples, like magimaster))
Seriously, it would be a breeze if you could kneecap them. You can't even shove them, or hit a door.


And getting all the items (including coins and Stefan) in the desert in chapter 15 while not killing anything but Muarim.
I think I'll be taking a pass one that one, too. The laguz are worth a lot of CEXP, and you have most of the good characters in your army by now, so it's harder to justfy a pacifist run in my opinion. Then again, who knows. Maybe I will do a run, see what Soren says about CEXP gain, and re-do it pacifist style if I can't clear ~1000 CEXP.


bblader1 wrote:I don't know if it helps anybody but Ike doesn't have to talk to anybody to "recruit" them, opening the door does it.
I'm not sure it would help very much. Nephenee and Brom are both within the movement range of patrols, and will set off the alarm, so once you open the door you have to move them anyway. I had Oscar open Brom's door with a key, Rescue him, and then talk to Kieran on turn 12. It kinda sucks but I can't get him out of there fast enough once he's in, even with Mordy. But if it's not necessary for Oscar to talk to Kieran in order to recruit him, I might be able to get more people to the exit.

Nephenee literally has to be moved, so it's a matter of shoving her or rescuing her or Talking and Directing her. I chose to Rescue, Drop, Talk, and Direct her out of the chapter. It worked out because I needed to pull one of the two archers out of the boss room in order to set up the boss kill to begin with (it's scary how much damage he does even to my super-Titania, she's 3HKO'ed at high hit rates, can't afford to have two plinkers firing at her).

Just to be on topic, what weapons are we assuming Mia gets? Are we assuming that she gets exclusive swords like the Vague Katti and SS? Also, are we assuming that she is given wrath as well? Sorry I didn't read through all of the posts in the OP.
What Narga said. Her current position does not actually reflect what she can do with Wrath + special swords. Even overlevelled, she has problems ORKO'ing, so she hangs around people with the same issues. If we took her skill and sword capabilities into account properly, I think that she would probably have a shot at getting over Zihark, personally. Vantage gives her durability, and his avoid lead is underwhelming when everyone is nigh-invincible by the time it gets established anyway.

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92 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:06 am

Interceptor wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:Granted I took lots more turns than you (under 30 I think, though), but now try full deployment and full escape (including all partners) and all the chests, without ever being discovered.
Yeah... no. I'll take your word for it. I think that I've basically obtained as close to highest possible BEXP as can reasonably be expected while maximizing other resources, 1020 for the chapter.

Nephenee and Ike escaped, and it was actually pretty tricky to even get Nephenee out. I had to rescue her with Titania, drop her on the Escape square, have Ike Talk to her, Direct her, and then attack an Archer all in one go. The spacing was unforgiving for that manuever.
Oh, my way has inferior bexp gains. It's more about solving a puzzle. Almost all the 8 or 9 move units were carrying a unit at one point or another.



And getting all the items (including coins and Stefan) in the desert in chapter 15 while not killing anything but Muarim.
I think I'll be taking a pass one that one, too. The laguz are worth a lot of CEXP, and you have most of the good characters in your army by now, so it's harder to justfy a pacifist run in my opinion. Then again, who knows. Maybe I will do a run, see what Soren says about CEXP gain, and re-do it pacifist style if I can't clear ~1000 CEXP.
Again: puzzle. It takes far too many turns to pick up everything and not kill anything. I don't think it's possible to do it within the max bexp turn count. It might be, but I doubt it.

Basically, cool but impractical.

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93 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:14 am

Narga_Rocks wrote:Again: puzzle. It takes far too many turns to pick up everything and not kill anything. I don't think it's possible to do it within the max bexp turn count. It might be, but I doubt it.

Basically, cool but impractical.
I think the way that I'll ultimately approach it is thusly:

Option 1: Max Turn BEXP, scorched earth strategy where I kill everything and collect all useful items.
Option 2: Max Turn BEXP, pacifist strategy where I collect only the best stuff (Stefan, Physic etc like you mentioned earlier).

I think that one of those strategies is probably superior to the other, overall. If one is not clearly in the lead, I expect it'll be because the CEXP/BEXP gains are too close to each other to make a call.

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