Ether wrote:Smash,if you understand that Mia isn't taking a lot of BEXP,then what's the problem?I said Mia takes 411 Bexp near the beginning,and she performed fine after that on her own merits,without anymore BEXP.Whereas you give Mist 500 Bexp,and claim Mia takes more.500>411.

I was assuming that Mia is taking ~10% of the BEXP (the amount I was giving Mist), on top of an extra 411. This 411 coming from other units who are no longer getting ~10% of the BEXP.

Now it's fine if you want to give Mia only 411 BEXP total, rather than 10% (which was something like 550), but you'd have to subtract a level from the estimates you usually have for her.

On a side note, this is what happens when units aren't getting BEXP between chapters (where I always assume units are already getting ~10% of the BEXP, if you were to take that away...). Let's take Neph, since she starts very underleveled and is one of the msot likely units to not be promoted (or barely promoted at best) by chapter 18 without BEXP.

Enemy head count and levels are all from Prog's enemy stats.

ch 11. 37 total enemies. However, 2 are Zihark/Jill, 2 are the enemies next to Jill so you're probably not killing them (mostly because they're in the opposite direction everyone should be going), 1 is lolBK, and 5 are vigilantes you aren't supposed to kill. So that leaves 27 normal enemies. Enemies are between level 9-14, with a few low level thieves. So let's say they're level 12 on average. Neph is level 7. If we're using... 6 combat units at the moment (Titania/Oscar/Kieran/Boyd/Ike/Marcia, plus Neph herself, and Brom/Zihark/Mordy/Lethe/SOren/Ilyana are all viable), then that's roughly 4 kills a person. If we assume every enemy is 2RKO'd, then every enemy will also produce hit exp. SO Neph would theoretically get 4-5 kills and 4-5 hits. Since she is 5 levels below, that comes out to ~33 exp a kill and 13 for hitting, but leveling up during the chapter will slightly reduce subsequent exp gains. Let's subtract 7 exp because she hit a higher level to make things simpler.

Neph would be 9/0.

ch 12. 10 ravens. Level 2-5. Let's say their average level is 4 because of the boss giving out extra exp. Let's also assume Ravens are on average 3RKO'd, so every raven produces 2 hit exp and 1 kill exp.

If we assume 6 combat units, then let's say Neph gets 2 kills and 4 hits. That's ~48 exp a kill and ~18 a hit, so Neph gets ~168 exp. Again, since of leveling up, let's subtract 8 exp.

Neph would be 10/0 with 60 exp.

ch 13. 38 enemies. 12 are Ravens (lvl 2-4), 3 halbs (lvl 2-3), boss, and the rest (21 enemies) are 1st tier generics (10-15. More closer to the lower end though). SO let's say all the promoted enemies are lvl 3 on average and the generics are lvl 12. Let's assume 1st tiers are 2RKO'd on average and 2nd tiers are 3RKO'd.

Assuming 7 combat units now (since Astrid/Jill are around, we might choose one of them), Neph will get about 2 2nd tier kills, 4 2nd tier hits, 3 1st tier kills, 3 1st tier hits. This gets ~45 exp for 2nd tier kill, ~17 for 2nd tier hit, ~28.5 for 1st tier kill, ~11.5 for 1st tier hit. This would result in 278 exp. DUe to leveling up and whatnot, let's say she gets... 265 exp.

Neph would be 13/0 with 25 exp.

ch 14. Stats weren't recorded due to FoW other than the tigers and boss, but let's just say they are level 14, and I don't recall very many enemies in this map, so let's say... 20 enemies (it IS only 5 turns for max BEXP, so it must be a short chapter with fewer enemies than normal). With 7 combat units, that's ~3 kills and 3 hits for Neph, so ~27 exp a kill and ~11 a hit, so 114 exp. She is supposed to level up and lose exp per hit/kill, but let's just say 125 exp (after all I could be wrong about the number of enemies and their level).

Neph would be 14/0 with 50 exp.

ch 15. I usually go for the BEXP, so no CEXP obtained.

ch 16. 38 enemies + Devdan. 1 boss, 2 are promoted (level 1 and 3). Enemies range from 12-16. So let's say 14.

With 8 combat units (Muarim/Stefan/Mak joined, we may pick one), that's ~5 tier 1 kills and 5 hits, and maybe 1 hit on promoted enemies. This is ~25.5 exp a kill, ~10.5 a hit, ~37.5 for promoted enemies and ~14.5 hit. So ~194.5 exp. With gaining levels during the chapter, maybe ~190 exp.

Neph would be 16/0 with 40 exp.

ch 17-1

19 1st tiers and 2 2nd tiers. 1st tiers range from lvl 13-18, although it seems to be skewed upwards, so let's say ave level is 16. 2nd tiers are lvl 4 and 5.

Assuming 8 combat units, that's ~2 1st tier kills, ~2 1st tier hits, and let's give her a 2nd tier kill since I didn't give her one in ch 16 (no hit though). ~10.5 for 1st tier hit, ~25.5 for kill, and ~37.5 exp for 2nd tier kill. So 109.5 exp. DUe to leveling let's say 105 exp.

Neph would be 17/0 with 45 exp.

17-2

22 1st tiers, 2 2nd tiers. 1st tiers are lvl 10-15 (wtf, they'rereally this low?), so let's say ave of lvl 13. 2nd tiers are lvl 2 and 3.

With 8 combat units, that's ~3 1st tier kills, ~3 1st tier hits, and lets give her 1 hit on 2nd tiers. ~8.5 exp for 1st tier hit, ~19.5 for kill, and ~13.5 for 2nd tier hit. So ~97.5 exp. With leveling up let say 95 exp.

Neph would be 18/0 with 35 exp.

17-3

42 1st tiers, 1 2nd tier. Enemies range from lvl 12-16 (assume lvl 14), and the 2nd tier is lvl 3.

However Ike rescues Leanne and is no longer a fighter, so let's take 7 combat units. However, a lot of enemies are mages who are easy to 1RKO, so let's assume that only every other enemy is 2RKO'd, so only half the enemies produce hit exp.

6 1st tier kills and 3 hits. ~8.5 exp a hit and ~19.5 a kill, so 142.5 exp. With leveling let's say 140 exp.

Neph would be 19/0 with 75 exp.

17-4

28 1st tiers, 5 2nd tiers, Oliver. 1st tiers range from 13-18, although it appears to be top heavy, so... assume lvl 16 average. 2nd tiers are lvl 3-5, so assume lvl 4 average.

With 7 combat units (again Ike still out of commission), ~4 1st tier kills, 4 1st tier hits, maybe 1 kill and 1 hit on 2nd tiers. ~8.5 exp a hit on 1st tiers, ~19.5 kill, ~12.5 exp a hit on 2nd tiers, ~29.5 on kill. So ~164 exp. Due to leveling up let's say 155.

Neph would be 20/1 with 30 exp.

So without any BEXP she'd barely reach 20/1.

Only there are some big assumptions I were making that would seriously reduce her exp intake.

- Assuming every single 1st tier enemy is 2-rounded. In reality most are getting 1-rounded. Some are 1RKO'd easily like mages or weighed down myrms, and some are 1RKO'd with forges like fighters and soldiers. This produces a lot less hit exp. Especially 2nd tiers, where the low lvl 2nd tiers (like lvl 1-3) are barely any stronger than the 1st tiers. For example, subtract just 1 hit on a 1st tier enemy in ch 11, 13, 14, 16, and all 4 parts of 17, and Neph already loses 82 exp. In a much more likely scenario, subtracting 2 hits from those chapters would be -164 exp, more if I were to subtract hit exp from 2nd tiers and not 1st tiers.

- Assuming we're routing every single map. The fact is, there are many chapters that do not require this (ch 11 is seize, ch 14 is kill boss, ch 16 is seize, etc.), and since reinforcements generally spawn from your starting position, you're even more unlikely to fight those enemies. This is also ignoring that sometimes the enemies are really just out of the way (like in ch 16, where enemies are spread out everywhere. And there are reinforcements on turns 7 and 8 from the starting position, and then turn 9 reinforcements somewhere.... when it's 8 turns for max BEXP). Remove one of Neph's kills from half of these chapters (11, 13, 14, 16, 17-1, 17-2, 17-4) is about 89 exp lost.

- Team composition. If you decided to use 8 combat... starting at chapter 11, rather than only 6 as I initially assumed, that would definitely reduce her exp gains in ch 11-14 (since I started assuming 8 combat units by chapter 16). Which is actually very likely as Titania/Ike/Oscar/Boyd/Kieran/Marcia already makes up 6, plus Neph herself, and a load of other viable units (Zihark/Soren/Mordy/Lethe/Ilyana/Brom). 6 combat units by chapter 11 is, personally, the lowest it's gonig to go, so Neph's exp gains can only decrease from here.

For example, assuming 8 combat units by ch 11, that's 3-4 kills and 3-4 hits per unit, rather than 4-5 kills and 4-5 hits.

THis can easily chop off 100+ exp overall (imagine -1 kill and hit in ch 11-14).

- Killing in the name of efficiency. even if we, say, only used 6 combat units in ch 11, for example our team being something like TItania/Ike/Boyd/Oscar/Kieran/Neph, we still are likely fielding Lethe and Mordy as fillers (and one of them to recruit Zihark) who will be killing and doing their thing (they won't be another mouth to feed if they're only being fillers, but they will be attacking whenever it will speed us up, which in this case will be extremely likely), or Marcia for some flying duty who may make a kill or two, Brom for emergency tanking, etc. THis is especially true earlygame where only the promoted PCs are monsters and most 1st tiers like Zihark will need to work for their kills, which is made easier if we had extra fillers to potshot and whatnot. This is pretty hard to estimate how much exp is lost due to this factor, but it cannot be ignored. After all, when I did my exp calculations for the DB in FE10, I didn't ignore this factor (I usually assumed something like 5 or so units we're seriously, but would split kills 6 ways because 1/6th goes to units that are not seriously used but are fielded to make things go by faster, e.g. Tauroneo/Tormod/etc.).

To be fair, with the fewer levels Neph is getting, the more exp she'd get from killing and hitting what she's getting. For example if we assumed she was only lvl 16 in 17-4 instead of lvl 19, she'd be 10 exp a hit on 1st tiers instead of 8.5, 22.5 kill on 1st tiers instead of 19.5, etc. Still, this at best gives her, like, 50 EXP.

Which means she's still down 300 EXP before killing in the name of efficiency is factored in.

Which means what level I'm seeing for Neph is more like 18/0 or so by chapter 18, again, before killing in the name of efficiency.

Now what happens if we give Neph ~10% of the BEXP? Well, depending on when and how much you spread out that BEXP, Neph could gain anywhere from 4-5 levels with 10% of the BEXP (which was something like 550 or so, whatever Mist got). However, as her level increases, her exp gains from hits and kills decreases, which means that 50 EXP I tacked back on Neph just now goes away, or might actually be even lower depending on when she gets BEXP (If, for example, you dumped 400 BEXP on Neph in ch 11, her level goes to liek 11, and now she'd be getting ~27 exp a kill instead of 33, and ~11 exp a hit instead of 13, and this exp reduction just goes on).

With "killing in the name of efficiency" factored in, assuming Neph being 20/1 by chapter 18, WITH ~10% of the BEXP on her already, sounds reasonable.

Which means, for Mia's case, I'm seeing her being something like 20/2, 20/3 if she's lucky, by chapter 18. And if you were to reduce her BEXP usage to 411, her level would drop to 20/1 or 20/2.

BTW, before anyone tries to take this exp calculation out of context, I'm not sandbagging Neph or hating on her. I could've used Brom, who only starts 1 level higher and thus will have about the same problems, or Marcia who starts 2 levels lower and 1 chapter earlier (so she's probably liek lvl 6, 1 below Neph). The whole point is that people are either seriously overestimating the amount of BEXP in this game, or there's some miscommunication (e.g. with Ether, apparently he says Mia gets 411 BEXP total, I thought it was 411 + her 10%). But if there's a miscommunication, then some units' levels are overestimated, as it seems most people don't assume units are actually getting 550 or wahtever 10% is, but rather 500, or 411 in Ether's assumption regarding Mia.