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1 Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:13 pm

Post here for all complaints about Mia's current position.

Please read the following first, though:
one
two
three
four
five (no, Zihark is not good for wrath if Mia is in play and him. By the time you get wrath his supports should be up and running, so he's already got durability. They both likely 3HKO most things and have crit and he has adept, so there is really no point boosting it further. Mia takes wrath, already has vantage, and her durability goes way up along with her offence. If both units are in play and you give wrath to Zihark, Mia is stuck without wrath and Zihark doesn't improve the overall power level of the team nearly as much since he was already pretty good durably. Neph has wrath already, so what was up with that? Most of your paladins are top/high tiers that ORKO almost everything in existence with a forge or in some cases even without. And have much durability. Again, power level of the team only goes up a smidgeon in comparison to Mia getting it. But her current position does not actually rely on wrath since Cynthia isn't really willing to just give it to her.)
six
seven
eight
nine
ten
eleven
twelve
thirteen
fourteen (if you don't read any others, read this one.)
fifteen (follow up in response to a complaint that the amount of bexp applied to Mia was too high)
sixteen
seventeen
eighteen
nineteen
twenty
twenty one
twenty two
twenty three
twenty four
twenty five
twenty six
twenty seven (note that if someone else has vantage + wrath then guard on anyone but Mia is virtually pointless, and someone with just wrath but not vantage is not using wrath to its full potential)
twenty eight (here is a fun one about Stefan)
twenty nine (more about Stefan's sad luck)
thirty
thirty one
thirty two
thirty three
thirty four (this is funny because it highlights how much bexp int had left over even after using it on units throughout his playthrough.
thirty five
thirty six (unaltered version of the original post that includes the rest of these links)


Complaints should keep this in mind. Especially for anyone who was capable of going onto the fe9 tier list during the week in which most of this was discussed but didn't. Note how it took ~200 posts to get Mia there, though other discussions were also occurring at the same time so its probably not a full 200. Also, note how Mia compares to Stefan when they are both around.

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2 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:43 pm

I read post 14. Problems with it:

-A lot of the post was just ragging how friggin' easy the game was. Even if Mia supposedly isn't having any trouble, that doesn't tell us how she's comparing to other units currently in the army. I saw one side comment about Mia beating Regal Blade!Ike, but that's about it. Hopefully I'll find this explored in the other posts.

-Wtf @ Mia being lv 17 AND ahead in levels to other members of your army in chapter 12. That's 2.2 levels per chapter, whereas if Boyd only reached 16, he's getting 1.6. Or take Oscar, whose base level is 1 higher despite having the same availability as Boyd.

-"I could give some to Zihark, who is getting badly beaten by Mia at this point (2 STR behind, 4 SPD behind, 5 LCK behind, 2 DEF behind, 2 HP behind, 4 RES behind, and Mia has C Rhys by this point for +1 mt/ +5 HIT)"

Base level Zihark loses 1.5 hp, 1.4 str, 4.6 spd, 5 lck, 2.2 def and 4.75 res to a 17/0 Mia. Of course, if Zihark gets 2 level-ups in C11 and a BEXP dump, those margins will basically get erased.

"Mia rapes the shit out of this chapter because she's doubling for like 20 damage a pop with the Laguzslayer, aka instant ORKO on every Raven in the chapter."

Last PT I favored Marcia enough that she could double ravens in chapter 12, and she ended up being my MVP thanks to her early promotion. That's not really a basis for arguing a character's position.

And once again, your team levels seem pretty inflated. In my canto-only playthrough (it used about 14 units, though Haar and Geoffrey join really late), my units were around lv 14-15 at chp 12, and only reached like 20/3 in Chp 18 (exception of Makalov and maybe someone else).

Now onto this:

no, Zihark is not good for wrath if Mia is in play and him. By the time you get wrath his supports should be up and running, so he's already got durability. They both likely 3HKO most things and have crit and he has adept, so there is really no point boosting it further. Mia takes wrath, already has vantage, and her durability goes way up along with her offence. If both units are in play and you give wrath to Zihark, Mia is stuck without wrath and Zihark doesn't improve the overall power level of the team nearly as much since he was already pretty good durably. Neph has wrath already, so what was up with that? Most of your paladins are top/high tiers that ORKO almost everything in existence with a forge or in some cases even without. And have much durability. Again, power level of the team only goes up a smidgeon in comparison to Mia getting it. But her current position does not actually rely on wrath since Cynthia isn't really willing to just give it to her.)

Int mentioned in the transfer topic that transfer units are considered in a void, and yet this whole passage is about the well being of the team unit.

I really don't find the logic used her to be agreeable at all. Clearly wrath!Zihark > wrath!Mia, but you basically take the reverse of that by looking at the improvement given by wrath. You're rewarding units for having faults rather than punishing them.

Obviously, the crappier you are, the more improvement you'll see from a resource. Conversely, if you're an amazing unit, you're asymptotically close to a "perfect performance", so any resource thrown onto that unit will make a minuscule difference. Why, then, should the inferior unit receive this dubious advantage to gain an edge in the comparison?

Optimal resource allocation isn't a good platform to compare units.

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3 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:59 pm

Vykan12 wrote:-A lot of the post was just ragging how friggin' easy the game was. Even if Mia supposedly isn't having any trouble, that doesn't tell us how she's comparing to other units currently in the army. I saw one side comment about Mia beating Regal Blade!Ike, but that's about it. Hopefully I'll find this explored in the other posts.
Think about it this way: The worst unit on the team is not necessarily a bad character. If Mia can still function fine on her own, performance compared to other units starts to matter a lot less. However, the majority of units around at Mia's join time are still above her.

-"I could give some to Zihark, who is getting badly beaten by Mia at this point (2 STR behind, 4 SPD behind, 5 LCK behind, 2 DEF behind, 2 HP behind, 4 RES behind, and Mia has C Rhys by this point for +1 mt/ +5 HIT)"

Base level Zihark loses 1.5 hp, 1.4 str, 4.6 spd, 5 lck, 2.2 def and 4.75 res to a 17/0 Mia. Of course, if Zihark gets 2 level-ups in C11 and a BEXP dump, those margins will basically get erased.
Alright? Zihark is still > Mia last I checked.

And once again, your team levels seem pretty inflated. In my canto-only playthrough (it used about 14 units, though Haar and Geoffrey join really late), my units were around lv 14-15 at chp 12, and only reached like 20/3 in Chp 18 (exception of Makalov and maybe someone else).
Does using 12 units for a lot of the game say anything about why that might be happening? Take away two of them, for example, and that's probably ~2 levels higher for the rest of the team as a result, which I believe is somewhat similar to Interceptor's run (I haven't checked it in a while).

Int mentioned in the transfer topic that transfer units are considered in a void, and yet this whole passage is about the well being of the team unit.

Transfers are a completely different case. I don't see how it's related to this at all.

I really don't find the logic used her to be agreeable at all. Clearly wrath!Zihark > wrath!Mia, but you basically take the reverse of that by looking at the improvement given by wrath. You're rewarding units for having faults rather than punishing them.
No, he's saying it's a better idea to give Wrath to Mia than to Zihark. If Mia goes from a value of 5 to 10 with Wrath and Zihark goes from 7 to 9, it's going to ultimately be a greater help to the team to give it to Mia.

And Zihark is still > Mia, so it's not like her getting this put her above him or anything.

Obviously, the crappier you are, the more improvement you'll see from a resource. Conversely, if you're an amazing unit, you're asymptotically close to a "perfect performance", so any resource thrown onto that unit will make a minuscule difference. Why, then, should the inferior unit receive this dubious advantage to gain an edge in the comparison?

If we're to discuss a unit we have to assume that unit is in play, right? If that unit is in play, there are certain things you're going to do to give that unit its maximum potential as long as it isn't harmful to the team. It's like that quite from Interceptor about Gatrie in RD. "If he's objectively the best use of a resource and you only give it to him half the time when he's around, that suggests that around half the time you're a retard."

Optimal resource allocation isn't a good platform to compare units.
Well, the resources need to go somewhere. Why do you think we stopped arguing ranks?

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4 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:15 pm

No, he's saying it's a better idea to give Wrath to Mia than to Zihark. If Mia goes from a value of 5 to 10 with Wrath and Zihark goes from 7 to 9, it's going to ultimately be a greater help to the team to give it to Mia.

If that’s the case, I still disagree. Wrath Mia is too risky because while she’s under half hp she has:

-No defence towards 1-2 and 3-10 range attacks.
-Doesn’t always crit.
-Even if she crits the enemy may not die on the first hit.

The same issues apply to Zihark, but his supports come back into range once he’s below half hp so he’s only facing single digit display hit. I don’t want to work out extensive math or anything, but here’s an example:

Mia has 24 skill and a silver sword equipped, and faces an enemy with 105 hit (she has 70 avo). Her crit rate is 77, so her chance of getting hit is 0.23 x 0.2485 x 100 = 5.71%.

Zihark in the same scenario with just A Muarim has 92 avo (+- a few points. Mia and Zihark’s spd/luck combo don’t exactly match, but they’re close enough). That’s already 3.51%. If we add in B Brom, that falls to 0.21%.

Offensively, I don’t see any difference between them.

If we're to discuss a unit we have to assume that unit is in play, right?

You don’t have to assume Zihark and Mia are in play concurrently. You could compare Zihark’s army to Mia’s army, so to speak.

Well, the resources need to go somewhere. Why do you think we stopped arguing ranks?

You look at it in terms of hypotheticals. If both units get x resource, unit y will be better than unit z. Without that resource, y is still > z. There’s good reason to believe y > z overall.

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5 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:28 pm

First I'll say it really sucks that Killer weapons are not buyable in this game. That would make Mia's case a hell of a lot better.

Vykan12 wrote:You don’t have to assume Zihark and Mia are in play concurrently. You could compare Zihark’s army to Mia’s army, so to speak.
So what's the big deal with Mia getting it? Or is this still a complaint of saying Wrath Mia > Wrath Zihark? If it's the latter, that is not my area to deal with.

You look at it in terms of hypotheticals. If both units get x resource, unit y will be better than unit z. Without that resource, y is still > z. There’s good reason to believe y > z overall.
Um...Care to expand on that? I'm not quite sure I follow.

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6 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:32 pm

lol @ reading though so much stuff, but I read post 14, and it's basically just saying that Mia is good when you give her a crapton of exp. Well, yeah. Give Soren or whoever tons of exp, and the same thing happens, only he's better because he has 1-2 range, gets staves when he promotes, and so forth.

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7 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:39 pm

I wasn't even assuming it on her in the first place. Or, more importantly, Cynthia wasn't assuming it on her and she put Mia above Stefan anyway.

As for Zihark getting it, sure. When Mia's not in play, Z can have it. Provided he's the best place for it. Opting for a miniscule improvement for the team as a whole (just to make Z better than before) over a greater improvement elsewhere is foolish. If the overall power level of the team is higher with Z having it than all random non-Mia units that are on the team (Mia's not in play), sure, he can have it since it makes the team better. If giving it to some random unit somehow makes us able to clear chapters faster/easier/safer/more efficiently/etc than if we gave it to Zihark, then why should Zihark get it?

In the direct comparison, assuming both are deployed (since that can happen too), Mia already has vantage. Zihark already has earth supports providing durability. People harp on Mia's durability, they have similar offence (adept gives Z an advantage there, though).

Offence of Mia + Zihark = 10 before someone gets wrath, 15 after.
Durability of Mia + Zihark = 6 before someone gets wrath, 7 if Zihark gets wrath, 10 if Mia gets wrath. hmmm.

Actually, thanks to Z's adept, offence might look more like: Mia + Zihark = 11, Mia + wrath!Zihark = 15, wrath!Mia + Zihark = 16. Basically, adept cuts some of the gains from what Zihark gets with wrath.


Regardless of whether or not Mia actually 3HKOs everything, or if she crits all the time, in the direct comparison the team's durability has improved more with Mia having it than with Zihark. Also, if she has 30% against her and he has 6% against him, but she has an 80% crit rate and 3HKOs, that's the same thing. And that crit rate can be achieved with a forge, thanks to the +15 swordmaster and her skill and the forge and low enemy luck. Of course, forges aren't free in this game, but surely she can have one for a while, just like everybody else. Of course, in the Zihark without Mia team Zihark might get it and then of course his 6% against drops to 1.2% against, which of course makes his durability even more reliable. But the point here is that there is no real reason to say Mia can't have it. We aren't currently saying Mia > Zihark, after all. It's more not pushing Mia into mid or lower unless Stefan goes down before her.

And Vague Katti exists, and using a 35% crit weapon and making it 100% crit thereby not wasting a use on the thing when we don't have to means that if a swordmaster, be it Mia or Zihark, gets wrath, they should get most or all of the uses of the thing.


As for your statistical comparison, earlier:

Mia has fire supports, don't forget that. Zihark needs more to catch up. Assuming Zihark is one level down, though Int will probably tell you that Z would need more bexp than Mia got just to get within 1 level, so 2 or more may be better for similar amounts of bexp. Not sure. Anyway, picking random levels, 16 and 17.

Zihark 28.3 12.7 1.9 16 18.6 8.4 8.8 1.2

Mia 26.5 11.4 3.3 14.95 19.6 10.95 9.2 4.75

Mia loses hp by 1.8, str by 1.3, skl by 1.05.

Wins mag by 1.4, spd by 1, lck by 2.55, def by .4, and res by 3.55.

Mia also has vantage. Zihark has Adept, which if he's 3HKOing gives him 1 - .84 x .84 = 29.44%. I suppose 7 and 8 crit probably give >0 crit, but I'll ignore it since I don't feel like looking up enemy luck. I still think if they are in separate armies they should both be considered with killing edges, considering there is one and while others can get it they don't have as many problems as before promotion Mia and Zihark. But I'm not going to include it now.

With those levels, you may be looking at chapter 13 or so.
Z has no support, Mia has CC Rhys Ilyana.

Mia is only behind .3 str, has ~10 more hit. I suppose the hit will only be relevant when the 60 hit silver blade appears, since if neither levels before then Z would be sitting at ~100.4 hit compared to Mia's ~110.85 hit. So at least 10, usually.
So she's also hitting B Ilyana before Zihark is getting a point of defence. Also, she's probably one level away from hitting 12 str and having 20 AS with the laguzslayer vs. Zihark's 19 AS, for what that's worth.
Also, Mia gets +3 mt from supports when chapter 17 comes around. +2 in chapter 16. Since Z needs a B with Brom to get just +1 mt, Mia will actually have more mt than Zihark for 1 chapter until he gets B Brom, and that's only if they are the same level, which shouldn't happen.

At 20/12 vs. 20/11, Mia has 18 str and Zihark has 20 str. So Mia could have a mt lead with her supports, or if only Rhys is near then Mia still ties. Also, bands don't really change anything since they both have access, although Mia can have a few extra levels with one because of her lower base level.


What I'm saying is, if we just assume Mia gets wrath for free or something, and Zihark can't have it at all in the comparison, I think Mia > Zihark would be simple enough. Mia wins durability before Zihark's supports get going, Zihark wins durability after, but only against really durable one range stuff and of course two range things we should keep both away from anyway. Zihark wins offence by some before promotion, but Mia would stomp his offence after chapter 19 because she has wrath and Zihark has wrath denied. Since I didn't just stick Mia above Zihark when I made the list, I think it's fair to assume I'm not giving Mia wrath for free nor am I denying Zihark the possibility of wrath.



Reikken wrote:lol @ reading though so much stuff, but I read post 14, and it's basically just saying that Mia is good when you give her a crapton of exp. Well, yeah. Give Soren or whoever tons of exp, and the same thing happens, only he's better because he has 1-2 range, gets staves when he promotes, and so forth.

In int's defence, most of that post was back when Mia was in lower mid and people were saying "negative utility" blah blah and suggesting Mia was holding the team back. It wasn't really a Mia > Soren argument, more of a "Mia is not getting negative utility for her pre-promotion chapters". Or, "Mia isn't a drag on the team". And in case you aren't paying close enough attention, EVERYONE on Int's team is getting bexp. Cause, you know, the game gives us some? That's really all Mia is actually getting. And calling what he gave her "tons" shows a lack of understanding.



Last edited by Narga_Rocks on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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8 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:41 pm

Um...Care to expand on that? I'm not quite sure I follow.

Ok.

Let's say we compare Kieran (playthrough 1) to Brom (playthrough 2) (I'm just trying to clarify that they don't have to be used in the same playthrough to be compared properly).

Think of something Brom really wants (eg/ a speedwing) and give it to him. For leverage, Kieran either gets the same resource in his playthrough, or better yet something he really wants with a roughly equal value to the team.

So we could look at say, Speedwing!Brom and Seraphrobe!Kieran. This becomes a mini-comparison that's given some minor weight in regards to the overall comparison based on its realistic-ness. In other words, don't waste your time debating 8 resource on Brom vs 8 resource on Kieran since no sane player will ever do that on an efficient playthrough.

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9 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:46 pm

Vykan12 wrote:
Um...Care to expand on that? I'm not quite sure I follow.

Ok.

Let's say we compare Kieran (playthrough 1) to Brom (playthrough 2) (I'm just trying to clarify that they don't have to be used in the same playthrough to be compared properly).

Think of something Brom really wants (eg/ a speedwing) and give it to him. For leverage, Kieran either gets the same resource in his playthrough, or better yet something he really wants with a roughly equal value to the team.

So we could look at say, Speedwing!Brom and Seraphrobe!Kieran. This becomes a mini-comparison that's given some minor weight in regards to the overall comparison based on its realistic-ness. In other words, don't waste your time debating 8 resource on Brom vs 8 resource on Kieran since no sane player will ever do that on an efficient playthrough.


The trouble comes when you realize that not all reasources act equally. You could have 1 item that Brom wants but he uses 3x better than anyone else, and the team as a whole is much better with Brom having it than with others having it. So I give it to him. Now, Kieran's team has the magic brom item because Brom isn't taking it. So Kieran gets that, or some other unit. Whatever. It cuts out on some of Brom's utility, but with the whole 3x thing it's not a big loss. But what about Kieran? Sure, there may be things he wants, but that doesn't necessarily mean giving stuff to him is better for his team then putting it elsewhere. Just because Brom gets something, doesn't mean Kieran should get something without adequate justification, or at least not without weighing his gains versus the gains the team could have elsewhere.

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10 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:46 pm

Narga, I don't disagree with the consistency of your logic, I disagree with the logic itself.

So when you write this:

Zihark wins offence by some before promotion, but Mia would stomp his offence after chapter 19 because she has wrath and Zihark has wrath denied.

My response is still this:

Clearly wrath!Zihark > wrath!Mia, but you basically take the reverse of that by looking at the improvement given by wrath. You're rewarding units for having faults rather than punishing them.

Obviously, the crappier you are, the more improvement you'll see from a resource. Conversely, if you're an amazing unit, you're asymptotically close to a "perfect performance", so any resource thrown onto that unit will make a minuscule difference. Why, then, should the inferior unit receive this dubious advantage to gain an edge in the comparison?

Optimal resource allocation isn't a good platform to compare units.

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11 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:53 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Narga, I don't disagree with the consistency of your logic, I disagree with the logic itself.

So when you write this:

Zihark wins offence by some before promotion, but Mia would stomp his offence after chapter 19 because she has wrath and Zihark has wrath denied.
That wasn't proof for Mia > Zihark. That was proof that I'm not gifting Mia with wrath and denying it from Zihark.



My response is still this:

Clearly wrath!Zihark > wrath!Mia, but you basically take the reverse of that by looking at the improvement given by wrath. You're rewarding units for having faults rather than punishing them.

Obviously, the crappier you are, the more improvement you'll see from a resource. Conversely, if you're an amazing unit, you're asymptotically close to a "perfect performance", so any resource thrown onto that unit will make a minuscule difference. Why, then, should the inferior unit receive this dubious advantage to gain an edge in the comparison?

Optimal resource allocation isn't a good platform to compare units.
And? I'm not actually comparing Mia with a free wrath to Zihark with no chance at wrath.

Besides, you say "optimal resource allocation isn't...", but I say we are then not comparing units in the context of the game.

It's simply not good for the team if Zihark gets wrath while Mia is on the team. However, since Mia will frequently not be played with Zihark on the same team, it doesn't really stop Zihark from getting consideration for wrath. As such, it doesn't catapult Mia over Zihark. However, the fact that she is a smart use of wrath should be considered when comparing her to other units (analyzing their claim on wrath in a random team as well, or what it does for their team, since if Mia isn't on it the other team gets an extra wrath).

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12 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:53 pm

The trouble comes when you realize that not all reasources act equally. You could have 1 item that Brom wants but he uses 3x better than anyone else, and the team as a whole is much better with Brom having it than with others having it. So I give it to him. Now, Kieran's team has the magic brom item because Brom isn't taking it. So Kieran gets that, or some other unit. Whatever. It cuts out on some of Brom's utility, but with the whole 3x thing it's not a big loss. But what about Kieran? Sure, there may be things he wants, but that doesn't necessarily mean giving stuff to him is better for his team then putting it elsewhere. Just because Brom gets something, doesn't mean Kieran should get something without adequate justification, or at least not without weighing his gains versus the gains the team could have elsewhere.

Example time:

You're comparing a top tier unit T and a mid tier unit M. T > M under normal circumstances obviously. But now we look at resource usage, and T is screwed because he 1RKOes 98% of the map already and gets 12HKOed. So we keep piling on resources on M so long as it's in the best interest of the team, and suddenly M > T.

To put it shortly:

Since T > M, it happens that M > T.

Because this unit is flawed, we can make him better and ignore everything it takes to bring him/her there just because it doesn't damage a good team dynamic.

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13 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:57 pm

However, the fact that she is a smart use of wrath should be considered when comparing her to other units (analyzing their claim on wrath in a random team as well, or what it does for their team, since if Mia isn't on it the other team gets an extra wrath).

I don't have a problem with that. In any discussion, you can say "Mia makes slightly better use of wrath than unit x, and so it is a minor advantage in her favor" or something to that effect.

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14 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:01 am

Narga_Rocks wrote:
Reikken wrote:lol @ reading though so much stuff, but I read post 14, and it's basically just saying that Mia is good when you give her a crapton of exp. Well, yeah. Give Soren or whoever tons of exp, and the same thing happens, only he's better because he has 1-2 range, gets staves when he promotes, and so forth.

In int's defence, most of that post was back when Mia was in lower mid and people were saying "negative utility" blah blah and suggesting Mia was holding the team back. It wasn't really a Mia > Soren argument, more of a "Mia is not getting negative utility for her pre-promotion chapters". Or, "Mia isn't a drag on the team". And in case you aren't paying close enough attention, EVERYONE on Int's team is getting bexp. Cause, you know, the game gives us some? That's really all Mia is actually getting. And calling what he gave her "tons" shows a lack of understanding.
of course Mia is not directly negative utility. No one is. The negative utility part comes in from taking more resources than the unit is giving back in aiding speedy chapter completion.

Yes, everyone is getting bexp. However, it's not hard to see that Mia is getting more than others are. He made his lowest leveled unit into his highest leveled unit. It also does not change the fact that she is indeed getting quite a lot of bexp (and cexp). And that you can do the same for whoever else. If you use a small number of units, performance per unit overall goes up. That's not saying anything about how Mia fares relative to other units.

What I want to see is how Mia is better than Soren, Stefan, Lethe. Not how she doesn't suck, which is entirely arbitrary.
Point me to that. Or better yet, if you know the reason, a concise statement would be awesome.

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15 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:07 am

Vykan12 wrote:
The trouble comes when you realize that not all reasources act equally. You could have 1 item that Brom wants but he uses 3x better than anyone else, and the team as a whole is much better with Brom having it than with others having it. So I give it to him. Now, Kieran's team has the magic brom item because Brom isn't taking it. So Kieran gets that, or some other unit. Whatever. It cuts out on some of Brom's utility, but with the whole 3x thing it's not a big loss. But what about Kieran? Sure, there may be things he wants, but that doesn't necessarily mean giving stuff to him is better for his team then putting it elsewhere. Just because Brom gets something, doesn't mean Kieran should get something without adequate justification, or at least not without weighing his gains versus the gains the team could have elsewhere.

Example time:

You're comparing a top tier unit T and a mid tier unit M. T > M under normal circumstances obviously. But now we look at resource usage, and T is screwed because he 1RKOes 98% of the map already and gets 12HKOed. So we keep piling on resources on M so long as it's in the best interest of the team, and suddenly M > T.
How many resources do you honestly think can go M's way before they should go elsewhere? Say M needs 2 energy drops, 2 speedwings, adept, 4 forges, and guard. No idea why guard is so important to M, just wanted another thing there. If M gets all those things and T gets nothing, M > T. Which would need what? 99% gets ORKOd and 13HKOd or something? Or similar durability from avo to counter it.

Somehow, I doubt that a proper analysis of the utility gained from giving M that stuff would actually be greater then putting it all elsewhere. After the second or third item chances are anything else would have a much higher opportunity cost than the gains from the unit getting it. As such, M will never get enough things to put it over a plain T.



To put it shortly:

Since T > M, it happens that M > T.

Because this unit is flawed, we can make him better and ignore everything it takes to bring him/her there just because it doesn't damage a good team dynamic.

So, remember, not just M and T exist. There is also E, P, and Y. (anagram for what your argument is)

Now, E, P, and Y are all not as good as T either. Somehow, M has to take enough things from the team to improve the team more than if E, P, and Y got there hands on these things as well. Since this is virtually impossible, your concerns are hardly relevant.

I'm not convinced that you would ever encounter a situation where M is so far down from T and needs 3 or 4 things to get better than T but somehow the team is better from all 4 going to M than maybe 2 going to M, 1 to T, and 1 to Y, or something. If somehow this is true, then M's potential towards a super team should be considered. Of course, M also needs to be compared to E getting it all, or P getting it all, or Y getting it all. If Y getting it all is not as good as M getting it all, and the team goes from 10 to 20 instead of 10 to 22, it's clear that M's affect on efficiency isn't as much as we might think just from comparing M to T alone. So it's highly unlikely that even if M getting it all is somehow best for the team, and M with everything appears better than T with nothing, we are still unlikely to actually put M over T. M may undergo a name change to UM because of what we have discovered, but M is certainly not going to H, let alone T.



And for Reikken, do an honest comparison of Mia vs. Stefan. Mia may not promote in chapter 16, but since 20/1 is low for chapter 18 and 20/3 or 20/4 for most more reasonable if you aren't using too many units, Mia shouldn't spend much time not promoted. Check Mia's 20/2 with BB Rhys/Ilyana (later A Rhys) to what Stefan is doing. Actually,
here you go.

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16 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:17 am

Sorry Narga, I was using hyperbole there a bit. I'm just trying to show you that it's possible to construct a situation where a clearly inferior unit can emerge superior to a top tier unit thanks to this resource allotment loophole.

A while ago Snowy_one would argue that if Mia gets Wrath + a desired band + VK/killer/SS/forge + lots of BEXP she could easily usurp some high tier units such as Muarim.

Here's another way of looking at it. When alloting BEXP, you'd expect each unit gets roughly an equal share. However, if you're looking in terms of improvement only, your low tiers get first dibs. Thus, a low tier unit is always getting free leverage to better units until finally surpassing them (if ever). Instead of letting advantages be advantages, you forcibly play a balancing act with the team until the differences become indiscernible. I repeat, that's NOT a good basis for unit comparison.

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17 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:45 am

One thing I want to point out is that I don't like to assume small team sizes. This is because this focuses resources onto fewer units. You can see that every unit will get incredibly inflated/overkill stats and start raping enemies everywhere, and at this point the list just boils down to availability.

For FE9 I like to assume 10 units + Volke, since IIRC the smallest deployment in lategame chapters was 11, which is enough for 10 + Volke, which is how I get ~20/1 for units like Neph and Marcia (Mia might be ~20/2).

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18 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:46 am

I see this as being akin to the old EXP hog argument. Titania doesn't need EXP to be better than your team. However, by not taking kills she's allowing the weaker units (ie everyone else) to become better while still being awesome when you need her, making her versatile. This gives Titania an advantage, in that other units need kills to approach Titania's base performance. However, if it goes the other way, and Titania gets all the kills and the other dudes don't, Titania is still pwn and the other guys are still crappy, so Titania is still better.

And I waltz on over to the tier list... and Titania has her on own tier for being so pwn. Awesome.

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19 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:49 am

Vykan12 wrote:Sorry Narga, I was using hyperbole there a bit. I'm just trying to show you that it's possible to construct a situation where a clearly inferior unit can emerge superior to a top tier unit thanks to this resource allotment loophole.

Here's another way of looking at it. When alloting BEXP, you'd expect each unit gets roughly an equal share. However, if you're looking in terms of improvement only, your low tiers get first dibs. Thus, a low tier unit is always getting free leverage to better units until finally surpassing them (if ever).

That seems strange. Oscar needs bexp to double, Boyd needs it to ORKO armours. That's just chapter 8.

Anyway, it's not as if one unit would get 2x the bexp another unit is getting and have them suddenly ORKOing things the other unit isn't. Assuming it takes less bexp to get Boyd or Oscar or Kieran to be ORKOing things than it takes another unit, they'd obviously be better. The thing that happens from resource optimization is more like this:

Unit A is ORKOing 70% of the map. Unit B is ORKOing nothing. They are both in play. With x bexp, unit A starts ORKOing 90%. With x bexp, unit B is ORKOing 40%. We have enough for both to get x. With y more bexp, unit A starts ORKOing 94%, unit B starts ORKOing 80%. I can't think of very many situations in which unit A getting it is a better idea.

If y got unit B up to 94%, unit B would obviously not be better. It's not likely for resource optimization to result in ridiculous things like unit B being better.

Extreme case time:
On the other hand, if unit A starts at 70% and unit B starts at 0%, and we can easily afford z bexp (say the team is not improved one iota from any of that bexp going anywhere but A or B), and it takes unit B to 90% and unit A to only 80%, it seems B > A. At least, assuming this happens early. This is probably a result of unit A's growths being horrid, or a huge base level. Unit B can instantly be brought above unit A's level, and even if unit A is given the same amount unit A is still inferior, so the parallel dimension argument doesn't even work. If this happens early in their career, there is really no reason not to do this, and no reason to suggest A > B. (This would probably be like giving fe6 Karel a lot of availability, a lot of levels to grow, and bad base stats (or good for his level but simply low leveled). He keeps his growths. With the bexp system in mind, I don't see any reason not to give him a dump up to the point where his stats are closer, and after a few turns he'll get some cexp and now he's ORKOing everything and never dying. There is enough bexp that the rest of the team still gets a fair amount. Now, unless the team's power as a whole is improved more by distributing that bexp around more, I see no reason for why Karel's dump should be denied. He's just too good after it. This won't necessarily make him the best, although if he starts in chapter 8 and can make the next 20 chapters easy mode it might, but it does mean that we shouldn't really be looking at his performance without a fair amount of bexp. Or in different words analyzing his performance as if he doesn't get much bexp is not an accurate way of measuring his possible effect on efficiency.)

This is, as I said, an extreme case, and unlikely to actually happen in any game. There is, of course, no cases of this in PoR. Frankly, I can't imagine a situation in which unit B could take z bexp and improve that much without the possibility of other units improving the team with that much bexp even more than unit B. In fact, that possibility is very likely to be true. So it's really not something that would lead to ridiculous scenarios. It might alter a couple of positions by 1 or 2, maybe jump someone 3 or so spots like how Rolf made it to sixth worst from worst. But its not going to cause some massive shift in the tier list that goes beyond credibility.




A while ago Snowy_one would argue that if Mia gets Wrath + a desired band + VK/killer/SS/forge + lots of BEXP she could easily usurp some high tier units such as Muarim.
Well, she should get the band a lot of the time, but not necessarily all the time (How much does 10 levels of a band even change, anyway? It's just a .5 to make the probability of certain values more secure, or a level or two earlier). Also some bexp, like everybody else, but not like 2x what the rest are getting, and if Mia or Zihark get wrath, the wrath user should see some VK use and some killer use. Like, most of the VK and a fair bit of one killer. But its not like any of that comes with no cost, and I'm thinking even if it did it wouldn't launch her into the stratosphere. As for the SS, she has some claim to it (if she has wrath, no claim without. Same as Zihark), but not as much as Tanith or Mist would, I should think. And shouldn't Mia get at least one forge? Or at least be able to grab Ike's from time to time or something. Not even her own dedicated one, necessarily, just a few swipes.

But I don't see how she'd ever jump like that, and certainly not "easily". So of course I'd have to disagree with Snowy on that.

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20 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:35 am

Kudos to Narga and RFoF for defending the important points in my absence.

@Reikken: you first.

Post #14 was not basically "Mia is good when you give her a crapton of EXP". I didn't give her a "crapton" of EXP. She got ~2-3 levels more than other people, just to start her off, and thereafter I bumped her up to optimal platforms of performance justl ike everyone else. There is so much BEXP available in PoR HM that even though I was applying it liberally to everyone, I still at any given time had 900-1100 free, enough for like 9-13 levels on anyone I want. Note that in Chapter 18, when I had all of my 20/4-5 units, I had enough BEXP on me to take Nephenee from base level (never used) to promotion.

Mia was not my highest level unit, Titania was. Even amongst the tier 1's, I was careful to only level people to optimal platforms, aka when they are reliably doubling and/or ORKOing, so occasionally Mia would be ahead or behind other units, depending on circumstance. There is no point, for example, to take Boyd past level 10 in Chapter 8 in Fixed Mode, since at this point he is ORKOing all hard targets but the boss with a forge. Having Mia slightly overlevelled served a useful purpose for Ch 12, having other units overlevelled would have retarded their CEXP gain to no useful end.

Mia may or may not be better than Soren, since he benefits from the same early start that she does. I don't think that the two have been seriously compared lately, but they certainly haven't been compared in THIS thread. I am skeptical of his prospects, given his MV and durability issues relative to her, even with staves, but it's possible.

This applies to the other units you mentioned as well, to some extent. The BEXP argument hasn't been used with enough characters to really pin Mia's placement down, since most of this list was build on the idea that everyone is hilariously underlevelled and the player doesn't know how to use BEXP. It may be that Mia is a tier too high, and she takes Zihark down with her. Time will tell.

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21 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:51 am

For the record its entirely possible this list could still undergo some major shifts. The way I see it now, though, is that Mia only goes down to Mid if she takes Stefan and Zihark with her, though Zihark would likely stay above Mia. As for Soren, if you can convince Int and me that Soren > Mia, he either moves up into upper mid above Mia or Mid would have Zihark > Soren > Mia > Stefan at the top of it.

As for Lethe, when I asked on SF what got Stefan above her someone said crits, or something like that. It's entirely possible if the swordmasters drop to mid Lethe could stay at the bottom of upper mid.

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22 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:27 am

@smash and Paperblade:

smash fanatic wrote:One thing I want to point out is that I don't like to assume small team sizes. This is because this focuses resources onto fewer units. You can see that every unit will get incredibly inflated/overkill stats and start raping enemies everywhere, and at this point the list just boils down to availability.

For FE9 I like to assume 10 units + Volke, since IIRC the smallest deployment in lategame chapters was 11, which is enough for 10 + Volke, which is how I get ~20/1 for units like Neph and Marcia (Mia might be ~20/2).

Your playstyle doesn't really much much to do with tiering units by efficiency.

If it's more efficient to use a smaller team size (and it is, within reason), so be it. The tier list does not stipulate certain team sizes, so if you use such criteria in a debate, you run the risk of invalidating your own arguments. It does not, as you say, necessarily boil down to availibility, although availability does factor very heavily.

For example, Ike wins availability over almost everyone, cleanly. Best unit in the game? Hard to see it. His start is very underwhelming, and his forced promotion makes it too difficult to get out of his hole via the usual outlets. Another: Nephenee and Kieran have identical availability. They are not even in the same TIER, never mind equivalent. Kieran is undeniably better than Nephenee, and significantly so, owing to his weapon selection and his horse. What about Rolf and Marcia? Same avail, but she obliterates him. Sothe and Jill? Not even on the same planet, martially.

Paperblade wrote:I see this as being akin to the old EXP hog argument. Titania doesn't need EXP to be better than your team. However, by not taking kills she's allowing the weaker units (ie everyone else) to become better while still being awesome when you need her, making her versatile. This gives Titania an advantage, in that other units need kills to approach Titania's base performance. However, if it goes the other way, and Titania gets all the kills and the other dudes don't, Titania is still pwn and the other guys are still crappy, so Titania is still better.

And I waltz on over to the tier list... and Titania has her on own tier for being so pwn. Awesome.

I personally don't think that "Titania as a threat" is enough to put her in her own tier. Giving up kills to other people is a useful shorthand way of demonstrating that she starts out good, but Titania has to be killing things to actually help you with completing the game efficiently.

She actually does require early kills to reach optimal performance even in the earlygame. Consider the example of Chapter 8 that I offered in post #14, where a few levels give her the STR to ORKO the Paladin-bomb with a Hand Axe. That's crazy useful for that chapter, since it frees her up on Turn 2 to do anything you want with her, but it does require that you give her the early boss kills or otherwise BEXP her a little bit.

Things like that are why I consider Titania to be Titania tier, not just because she's mathematically better than other units against generic enemy match-ups.

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23 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:36 am

When I play PoR, I like to use my silver Wavebird with a smiley-face sticker on it. However, as with your personal playstyle, it doesn't really much much to do with tiering units by efficiency.
I tier H5 units based on what kind of stylus is used. For example, because Colonel M is a Smogon forum member and knowledgeable about Pokemon, Roger becomes RNG blessed if a Turtwig ended stylus purchased at Gamestop is used to play the game.

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24 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:20 pm

@Vykan:

In FE9, I am God. I have BEXP, and I can spend it where I see fit. The fact that Boyd and Oscar will be higher level than Mia at base in Chapter 8 is no reason for them to continue to be higher level than her in any other given chapter. If it makes sense for me to have someone at level X, so be it. There were times when Mia was equal to or behind other units, and there were times when she was ahead. Chapter 12 is a good example of where it makes sense to have her slightly ahead.

---

My unit levels are not "inflated", if you mean to say that I am estimating high. I am not estimating in any of those above posts, I am literally going to the unit screen and reading back what I have there. For example, here is a post that I made on the subject:

Current levels of active participants in my aborted playthrough at Ch. 18:

Ike: 20/1 (duh)
Ilyana: 20/3, EX 19
Mia: 20/5, EX 38
Boyd: 20/4, EX 0
Kieran: 20/4, EX 42
Rhys: 10, EX 11
Titania: 20/11, EX 19
Oscar: 20/4, EX 68
Mist: 6, EX 2
Astrid: 20/5, EX 44

Everyone else is base level, or was lightly used and only levelled a little (like Soren). I have 1521 points of BEXP availible to me currently.


Those are not estimates, they are exact figures. Now, you may notice that I only have eight serious combatants (Rhys and Mist are not taking kills). This accounts for much of why everyone sans Ike is at 20/3 or higher. However, that's not to say that this is the ceiling. As I said, I could take Nephenee (who is at base level in this party, never used), BEXP her to level 20, Master Seal her to 20/1, give her a forge, and she's ORKO'ing immediately in Chapter 18. So I could have nine serious combatants, easily, and several of them are below High tier, which means that I still have headroom.

---

Your level 17 Mia is wrong. I am using Fixed mode, with all of the modifcations that come along with it. Again, I will ask you this question: do you have any idea what Fixed mode means? If you are looking at Random averages and assuming that Fixed mode results in the same figures, you are very wrong. Fixed gives Mia a bit of an advantage due to starting points, but I chose it because Fixed mode also guaranteed that Mia does not get blessed: I very specifically wanted to avoid a situation where she got lucky level-ups, because that would poison the results of my playthrough.

Anyway, she beats base level Zihark quite handily. We can obviously BEXP Zihark: the resources exist to do so. He will, at the end, be roughly comparable to Mia. However, he needs more BEXP to get there than she does, because she's also been eating kills in Ch. 8, 9, and 10. Zihark has to live with his bases in Ch. 11, and he's not looking at huge CEXP gains in an efficient run of that chapter, either.

Does this make a difference in their comparison? Nobody knows, the comparison has never been done with the stipulation that Mia actually gets the resources that she needs. I think that the smart money is on Mia, personally, but it could go either way.

---

Transfer characters are considered in a void in FE10 for a specific reason: because it's fucking annoying to do otherwise. We've already ranked 70+ characters without transfers, assuming that they are alongside other normies. With transfers, do we assume that other transfers are deployed? It gets messy really quickly, and could result in the normies having to be re-ranked with the possibility of transfers existing in their armies.

Transfers can be done any way that people agree on, but my feeling is that:

1) normies are ranked in armies with normies
2) transfers are ranked as if they were the only transfer unit in the army.

This allows us to rank transfers using the same standards that normies were ranked, which in turn allows both sets of characters to exist in the same tier list.

So this has nothing to do with PoR.

---

I will leave the opportunity cost explanations largely to Narga, since he is better at explaining it than I am. I want to say, however, one thing.

Vykan, your hypothetical situations are just that: hypothetical. They fall apart when the rubber meets the road, and we look at real resources (Wrath) and real units (Mia). We can have a discussion about unit A and unit B, but you cannot extrapolate your fake numbers into arguments for actual units. For you to say that "Mia makes slightly better use of wrath than unit x, and so it is a minor advantage in her favor" is for you to completely misunderstand the magnitude of her advantage with Wrath. Period.

It's fine to point out the flaws in the strategy (things with more than 1-range), or the opportunity costs incurred (nobody else can use Wrath if Mia takes it when she is deployed, Vague Katti can't go to anyone else), as both things mitigate the specific tier benefits of her performance, but going overboard serves no useful purpose.

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25 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:31 pm

Well, I DO have to say that not giving the healers any BEXP is kinda stupid.

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26 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:39 pm

bblader1 wrote:Well, I DO have to say that not giving the healers any BEXP is kinda stupid.
I don't agree. I did a cost/benefit analysis early on, and decided that being 2HKO'ed is good enough for the healers. Being forced to protect them occasionally is more efficient than BEXP'ing them enough to make them good, from the standpoint of what BEXP can do for my combatants. I don't want them taking hits even if they can survive them, because it hurts my Enemy Phase output. Mend staves are enough to overcome MAG deficiencies.

Actually, my guys are so ridiculous at this point in the game that I don't even bother keeping them near their support partners, never mind having to heal them. Ilyana is basically my healer right now, t the extent that I even need one at all, since she can take a couple of hits and she's up front anyway.

I am in the middle of a playthrough where I'm intending to BEXP Mist and promote her ASAP for the horse, to see how that goes (Sonic Sword as well), but it's on hold while I play other games.


I'd be interested to hear your argument as to why I should have BEXP'ed them.

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27 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:41 pm

So they can actually fight? Granted it's not that great but I'll take that over healing if it's so little needed in this game.

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28 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:42 pm

You know everyone has their favorite characters. >_>; Why am I always mocked Chainey lol?

It's possible to see Zihark, Mia, and Stefan going down a bit. I dunno about Stefan since his only crippling weakness is his CEV. Then again I just see Swordmasters as overrated, like usual.

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29 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:34 pm

bblader1 wrote:So they can actually fight? Granted it's not that great but I'll take that over healing if it's so little needed in this game.
Well, neither of them can fight until they promote, and Rhys is pretty bad as a fighter (Light sucks, and so does his AS with it). Mist's only saving grace is the Sonic Sword. I'm not sure I see the point of BEXP dumping someone that I can't even use as a fighter until like Ch 16-18. It seems to me that leaving them as healbots is more efficient, since tons of people are better at combat. Healing is actually important earlygame, it's just not as important late when supports/stats get established for people.

I already pointed out that I had enough BEXP left over to take Nephenee from 7 to 20/1, I guess that BEXP could have gone into Mist to promote her beforehand. That was the idea behind my latest run, whenever I get back to doing it.

So I don't see how many levels are inflated. I'm using 8 serious combatants here, with enough BEXP to create a ninth one form thin air. All of them, save maybe Ike, are ridiculous, and Ike just needs a little attention first.

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30 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:42 pm

I should say that if you click on number 34 and scroll up one post on Serenes you can see the first time Int posted his characters' chapter 18 levels. He also specifically says how much bexp he has left. 1521 bexp at this time.


Oh, I forgot Vykan said something about making Marcia clean up in chapter 12:



1x Raven lv 2 (beak, coin)
28 hp, 16 atk, 13 AS, 112 hit, 26 avo, 10 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev
Need 24 mt and 17 AS. Marcia needs 11 levels from chapter 9 to chapter 12 for 17 AS, and 12 str means she needs 12 mt to ORKO. Max mt Iron forge at level 16 to pull it off.

Mia needs level 16 for 16 AS with laguzslayer and gets 29 mt. Marcia at level 20 has 14 str and 19.25 speed for 16 AS with the laguz lance, by the way.


2x Raven lv 4 (beak, arms scroll [d])
30 hp, 18 atk, 15 AS, 115 hit, 31 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 1 cev

Turn 4 Reinforcements:

1x Raven lv 4 (beak, secret book [d])
30 hp, 17 atk, 15 AS, 114 hit, 30 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 0 cev
26 mt needed, and 19 AS. Level 20 Marcia is needed to pull this off. 15 levels in under 3 chapters. Really under 2 chapters since 10 is stealth, usually, and she starts a little behind in chapter 9. Mia needs Level 16 to double, and level 17 on fixed mode to double with the laguz slayer. Some band usage might pull it off on random mode at level 17. 11 levels in nearly 5 chapters, though again chapter 10 is often stealthed.


2x Raven lv 5 (beak)
31 hp, 18 atk, 16 AS, 115 hit, 33 avo, 11 def, 9 res, 6 crit, 1 cev

Seeker lv 8 (beak, blue gem [d], demi-band, elixir)
36 hp, 22 atk, 16 AS, 131 hit, 43 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 11 cev
27 mt and 29 mt.
These guys need level 18, though. 12 levels. I suppose after ORKOing a few of these things her level goes up, but I understand people rejecting the possibility. Still, I don't really see just how Marcia could be cleaning up with the same amount of bexp as Mia would take. I'm thinking at least 400 more than whatever Mia already took in Int's playthrough. Equating the two as if they are on the same level is again just flawed.




Turn 6 Reinforcements:

2x Raven lv 3 (beak, 1 seraph robe [d])
29 hp, 17 atk, 14 AS, 112 hit, 28 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev

Turn 8 Reinforcements:

1x Raven lv 3 (beak, coin [d])
29 hp, 17 atk, 14 AS, 112 hit, 28 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev
18 AS needs just level 16 with the laguzslayer.
26 mt needed.

Now, I'm not saying it is easy to get Mia to these levels, but the idea here is that to double the 16 AS enemies Marcia needs level 20/1 and still won't necessarily double with the laguz lance because of its massive weight. I suppose at that level she should kill them all with just a steel lance, aside from the boss and one other guy. But that's at a pretty high level.

There really isn't anybody aside from Mia that is remotely capable of pulling any of this off. Now, while it is true that she needs some bexp to get there, I have to ask why its not worth it.


Oh, Zihark is more reasonable than Marcia, probably, given how he has 18 AS at level 15 with the laguzslayer, 19 AS at level ~17 with the laguzslayer, and 20 AS at either level 18 or 19 with the laguzslayer. On fixed mode, thanks to 80 starting speed points, he needs level
14 for 18 AS
16 for 19 AS
17 for 20 AS.

Also, using steel swords or attacking the wrong enemies would cost him the 20 AS and he needs level 18.

Anyway, the idea is that Zihark takes more bexp to pull it off than Mia, and Marcia takes even more than Zihark.



But it's not like Mia's move up relied on her offence in this chapter. It's just neat that she takes less bexp than any other unit to pull this off. And aside from Zihark it is not just less bexp, it is a LOT less bexp. Yes, it is so much less that it needs capital letters and italics just to say how much less.


Basically, if Mia can start the chapter at level 16, how much exp are those laguz giving? I think she can hit 20AS by the time the 16 AS ones are near.

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31 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:58 pm

Healers won't suck at fighting if we gave them lots and lots of favoritism, as apparently there's so much resources lying around the team isn't going to care if they take it.

Of course, healers won't get anything at all, while people like Mia do.

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32 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:18 pm

smash fanatic wrote:Healers won't suck at fighting if we gave them lots and lots of favoritism, as apparently there's so much resources lying around the team isn't going to care if they take it.
There is a huge difference in magnitude between:

1) what it takes to make Mia a good fighter, and
2) what it takes to make Rhys or Mist good fighters

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the healers may be beyond the cutoff. Feel free to give reasons (note: sarcasm is not a reason) if you disagree.

Of course, healers won't get anything at all, while people like Mia do.
Whenever I get back to PoR, I'm going to see if it's possible to raise a good team whilst making Mist a capable fighter by Ch. 18. It might be possible.

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33 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:49 pm

There is a huge difference in magnitude between:

1) what it takes to make Mia a good fighter, and
2) what it takes to make Rhys or Mist good fighters

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the healers may be beyond the cutoff. Feel free to give reasons (note: sarcasm is not a reason) if you disagree.

20/10 Mist with A Jill/B Boyd and silver sword
28.8 atk, 21.2 AS, 131.8 hit, 5.8 crit - - 72.2 avo, 33.0 hp, 13.2 def, 24.2 res, 22.8 critavo

20/10 Mia with A Rhys/B Ilyana and silver sword
34.2 atk, 27.4 AS, 166.1 hit, 25.9 crit - - 71.2 avo, 36.5 hp, 14.6 def, 10.8 res, 16.4 critavo

Mia has more offense.
On the other hand, Mist is actually winning durability. All their stats are similar except Mist has a large res lead. Elthunder and Tornado sages in chapter 23 4HKO Mia and do 0 damage to Mist. Blizzard 3HKO Mia and still does 0 damage to Mist. Mia's vantage is pretty worthless unless she has wrath, at which point I can just give the sonic sword/hammerne to Mist and now Mia is SOL as Mist ORKOs everything at 1-2 range and doesn't need to be at half HP to do it.
Mist also has a horse.

Also, if you think Mia is supposed to have the level lead, think again. There's a ton of physics available, and other staves such as silence and ashera staff. If anything, Mist should be the one with the level lead. If that doesn't convince you, using up just 3 physic staves and the ashera staff gives 1290 exp. And there's also the innate value that comes with using those staves (hey everyone I just healed the entire party back to full HP and restored all status), but that's beside the point.

I'm sorry, I'm not convinced that Mist is beyond this arbitrary and vague cutoff and Mia isn't, when the only thing Mist actually needs here are arms scrolls. And arms scrolls are a very, very lenient form of favoritism as they're in extremely low demand.

Mono weapon users like Ike and Neph don't need arms scrolls at all.
Marcia and Brom don't care about arms scrolls, since they're not going to use swords when lances are available. Ditto for Kieran, except replace lances with axes.
Boyd doesn't need arms scrolls. He's not going to touch bows when he already 2HKOs with a hand axe.
Oscar and Jill aren't in a serious rush to get A axes, since silver lance is only 1 less mt than a silver axe.
Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod are not going to need any, since I don't recall being able to use arms scrolls for their staves.
The laguz aren't even able to use them.

This leaves Astrid and Mak, but since they can already use steel axes immediately after promotion, they're not in a terrible rush. It's 180 WEXP to go from E to A, which is 90 attacks with a steel axe, and since they double very often, that's more like 45. Going by 7 attacks per chapter, they'll reach A axes sometime during chapter 24, which is when silver axes are buyable anyway.

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34 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:37 pm

the great haar wrote:
There is a huge difference in magnitude between:

1) what it takes to make Mia a good fighter, and
2) what it takes to make Rhys or Mist good fighters

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the healers may be beyond the cutoff. Feel free to give reasons (note: sarcasm is not a reason) if you disagree.

20/10 Mist with A Jill/B Boyd and silver sword
28.8 atk, 21.2 AS, 131.8 hit, 5.8 crit - - 72.2 avo, 33.0 hp, 13.2 def, 24.2 res, 22.8 critavo

20/10 Mia with A Rhys/B Ilyana and silver sword
34.2 atk, 27.4 AS, 166.1 hit, 25.9 crit - - 71.2 avo, 36.5 hp, 14.6 def, 10.8 res, 16.4 critavo
You have got to be kidding. Mist starts at level 1 in chapter 9 and just has healing. She's not promoting by chapter 16/17 like everyone else without way more bexp than Mia took. Also, you don't have that many physic staves yet. You get one in chapter 15, and I think there may be one or two to steal within a few chapters of 15, but for most of the time Mist has access to torch (1 chapter), mend, heal, and ward. Ward shouldn't be spammed to get levels when you can use it to make people immune to stuff. The idea is, for Mist to have any chance of promoting around the same time as everyone else, you take way more bexp. Int's playthrough that he hasn't yet finished would look into how much bexp she needs if he focuses as many heals off of Rhys to get Mist as much as possible.


Mia has more offense.
On the other hand, Mist is actually winning durability. All their stats are similar except Mist has a large res lead. Elthunder and Tornado sages in chapter 23 4HKO Mia and do 0 damage to Mist. Blizzard 3HKO Mia and still does 0 damage to Mist. Mia's vantage is pretty worthless unless she has wrath, at which point I can just give the sonic sword/hammerne to Mist and now Mia is SOL as Mist ORKOs everything at 1-2 range and doesn't need to be at half HP to do it.
Mist also has a horse.

Also, did you see the atk value difference and the crit? I know you said she has more offence, but that's a lot more. Also, Mia can take a killing edge and have a lot of crit. Mist takes a killing edge and I'm not even certain a double crit will KO, whereas Mia will frequently only need one. Also, I don't think there are enough sages close enough together for Mia to actually get killed by any in a single turn, and if you let Mia get down to single digits and don't heal her and then send her up against mages you have problems.



Also, if you think Mia is supposed to have the level lead, think again. There's a ton of physics available, and other staves such as silence and ashera staff. If anything, Mist should be the one with the level lead. If that doesn't convince you, using up just 3 physic staves and the ashera staff gives 1290 exp. And there's also the innate value that comes with using those staves (hey everyone I just healed the entire party back to full HP and restored all status), but that's beside the point.
Silence and ashera? Look, nobody is disputing Mist has workable offence if she gets up to the right level. At least I hope not. But you have to get her up there, and there is no way that is going to happen by chapter 18.


I'm sorry, I'm not convinced that Mist is beyond this arbitrary and vague cutoff and Mia isn't, when the only thing Mist actually needs here are arms scrolls. And arms scrolls are a very, very lenient form of favoritism as they're in extremely low demand.
Use it to forge stuff and give people crit maybe? Have you seen how expensive 9 crit is on silver weapons?


Mono weapon users like Ike and Neph don't need arms scrolls at all.
Marcia and Brom don't care about arms scrolls, since they're not going to use swords when lances are available. Ditto for Kieran, except replace lances with axes.
Boyd doesn't need arms scrolls. He's not going to touch bows when he already 2HKOs with a hand axe.
Oscar and Jill aren't in a serious rush to get A axes, since silver lance is only 1 less mt than a silver axe.
Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod are not going to need any, since I don't recall being able to use arms scrolls for their staves.
The laguz aren't even able to use them.
Why wouldn't Marcia want to be able to do more damage to axe users and take no damage in return? It's a 20 hit difference. Brom likely has the def to not care. Jill would enjoy being able to use a brave axe when Haar shows up, though it is possible to pull off. I wonder if it would take her using the steel axe exclusively, though, and she may want to use a silver lance or a forged javelin or even the ol' forged steel lance she had before promotion. She's not pulling off any of that with a steel axe.


This leaves Astrid and Mak, but since they can already use steel axes immediately after promotion, they're not in a terrible rush. It's 180 WEXP to go from E to A, which is 90 attacks with a steel axe, and since they double very often, that's more like 45. Going by 7 attacks per chapter, they'll reach A axes sometime during chapter 24, which is when silver axes are buyable anyway.
Maybe Astrid/Mak might like to use short axe or tomahawk sooner.



I'm still not sure just how you think Mist can get 19 levels off bexp and heal/mend/ward in a reasonable amount of time without taking lots more bexp than Mia. And Mia is already on the higher end of bexp needs. Marcia likely takes more, Zihark takes more than Mia (probably), and maybe Jill to get started, and I'm not sure quite how much the rest are needing, but Mist will need more than anyone.

Unless you want her promoting around chapter 21 or something and you still think she'll catch up to Mia before 20/10.

Man I wish this wasn't the weekend because I'm sure Int would have a field day with your post.


Oh, and you gave Mia wrath and Mist sonic sword and prefered use of hammerne, which aren't really equal at all. This is what bothers me. People see us give one thing to a character, we justify it. They say, "okay, she gets that, and now I can give xyz to this other character" and act like they are equivalent. Also, no attempt to even compare the cost/benefit of these actions to actually prove that they are even.

Anyway, even if you do, Mia now has much more durability at 1 range (thanks to the wrath you gave her), whereas Mist is stuck to limiting her actions mostly to player phase and being more careful on enemy phase (until runesword for 3 chapters, of course). Mist may be ORKOing at 2 range and Mia not (though I should note Mia can grab the SS now that you gave her wrath and be almost as good) but that only matters on enemy phase, except Mist gets hit every time she uses it. But this isn't about Mist and her offence or anything. This is about how much it takes to get Mist to 20/10 at the same time Mia hits 20/10. This isn't about what they do when they are there, so I have no clue why you put so much detail into what they do at 20/10. Especially since Mist is currently >>>>>>> Mia on the list (Mist is 7 above Mia), though obviously that's mostly staves.

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35 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:37 pm

You have got to be kidding. Mist starts at level 1 in chapter 9 and just has healing. She's not promoting by chapter 16/17 like everyone else without way more bexp than Mia took. Also, you don't have that many physic staves yet. You get one in chapter 15, and I think there may be one or two to steal within a few chapters of 15, but for most of the time Mist has access to torch (1 chapter), mend, heal, and ward. Ward shouldn't be spammed to get levels when you can use it to make people immune to stuff. The idea is, for Mist to have any chance of promoting around the same time as everyone else, you take way more bexp. Int's playthrough that he hasn't yet finished would look into how much bexp she needs if he focuses as many heals off of Rhys to get Mist as much as possible.

The levels I used were for chapter 23. That's why they both were equipped with silver swords.


Also, did you see the atk value difference and the crit? I know you said she has more offence, but that's a lot more. Also, Mia can take a killing edge and have a lot of crit. Mist takes a killing edge and I'm not even certain a double crit will KO, whereas Mia will frequently only need one.

Did you notice that Mist has a horse? The horse means things like not falling behind or using canto to do hit and runs or other things.

I didn't elaborate on the offense just like how I didn't elaborate on the mobility. My point isn't that Mist is better than Mia at fighting (unless she gets the sonic sword and hammerne uses) which is why I didn't bother to try and undermine the offense lead or overhype the mobility, and I only talked about the res because people think it's a worthless stat, but here the gap is over 10 points, so it does matter. my point is that Mia is not so much better than Mist at combat where Mia is worth investing in and not Mist.


Also, I don't think there are enough sages close enough together for Mia to actually get killed by any in a single turn,

There are more than just magic users. Mia is going to do worse than Mist on enemy phase if there's a magic user to attack them, period. You can't assume that whenever they're attacked by a magic user it's going to be by itself and no other enemies will be nearby.


and if you let Mia get down to single digits and don't heal her and then send her up against mages you have problems.

And guess who's a staff user?


Use it to forge stuff and give people crit maybe? Have you seen how expensive 9 crit is on silver weapons?

As if the game didn't throw enough money at you in the first place.

And really, crit on forges? If people in this game are really so good, as int implies, why do they even need crit on their forges in the first place? And if their offense is really that bad, 9 crit is not going to do anything.


Why wouldn't Marcia want to be able to do more damage to axe users and take no damage in return? It's a 20 hit difference.

This would only be useful if there were significantly more axe enemies than any other enemies. With any other combination of enemies she'd rather use lances anyway. The WTD she faces against axes is not going to be enough to overcome the WTA against lance and sword enemies where using a lance will do her more than using a sword, as well as WTN against laguz and such.


Jill would enjoy being able to use a brave axe when Haar shows up, though it is possible to pull off. I wonder if it would take her using the steel axe exclusively, though, and she may want to use a silver lance or a forged javelin or even the ol' forged steel lance she had before promotion. She's not pulling off any of that with a steel axe.

Silver Lance isn't even buyable until chapter 23. She can't use something that doesn't exist. Jill's problem isn't attack anyway. Her att is about the same as Kieran, and Kieran doesn't have att problems. So this also goes for forged steel lance.

Why would she used forged javelin when she could just as easily use forged hand axe, and the hand axe will even help build her axe rank?

Brave axe is only B rank. You saw how easily Mak and Astrid reached A rank for silver axes, and Jill has a head start since she should promote before them.


Maybe Astrid/Mak might like to use short axe or tomahawk sooner.

Which every other axe user wants and only 1-2 of each are available in the entire game? This is a non-issue.


I'm still not sure just how you think Mist can get 19 levels off bexp and heal/mend/ward in a reasonable amount of time without taking lots more bexp than Mia.

Using up two physic staves already gives Mist 660 exp.

No, Mist won't promote in chapter 16 or 17. But she will by chapter 18. And with the steady flow of physics thanks to Volke stealing them, as well as all the other high rank staves, her level will skyrocket.

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36 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:51 pm

the great haar wrote:

The levels I used were for chapter 23. That's why they both were equipped with silver swords.
Which suggests that you think Mist can get 9 levels in like 2 chapters since she won't promote until chapter 20 or so and Mia can't get past 20/10 by chapter 23?


Did you notice that Mist has a horse? The horse means things like not falling behind or using canto to do hit and runs or other things.
Yippee. She can get that at level 10 with a seal.


I didn't elaborate on the offense just like how I didn't elaborate on the mobility. My point isn't that Mist is better than Mia at fighting (unless she gets the sonic sword and hammerne uses) which is why I didn't bother to try and undermine the offense lead or overhype the mobility, and I only talked about the res because people think it's a worthless stat, but here the gap is over 10 points, so it does matter. my point is that Mia is not so much better than Mist at combat where Mia is worth investing in and not Mist.
Okay, you clearly aren't reading Int's posts well enough. Or at least lacking in skills like reading comprehension. It's not that Mist isn't worth investing in, it's that it takes a lot more than Mia, and Mia was already somewhat high in the maintenance department. Besides, Mist's primary function can be accomplished without any bexp. You can physic and mend just as easily without getting to level 20. If you want the horse so badly you can seal her early, too. Promoting at level 10 to 14 will of course severly limit Mist's combat abilities, though sonic sword should still ORKO wyverns. Here's another thought for you:
Mia takes bexp and uses it every turn. Or at least every turn there are nearby enemies. Mist spends half her time healing people, something she can do without the investment. Which means even if they took equal amounts of bexp it may not be worth it. Mist takes more bexp.


The idea is that Mist may or may not be past the line of reasonable investment. Int actually admitted to not being 100% sure she is past that line.


There are more than just magic users. Mia is going to do worse than Mist on enemy phase if there's a magic user to attack them, period. You can't assume that whenever they're attacked by a magic user it's going to be by itself and no other enemies will be nearby.
...okay...
So Mist may pull a slight durability win by chapter 25 or so after spamming silence and sleep on things that don't need it just to catch up in level. And that's assuming Mia doesn't get wrath, because you may have noticed that no matter what you give Mist (even vantage + wrath + SS) she still won't come close to Mia's 1 range durability if Mia has wrath.


And guess who's a staff user?
And guess who needs no bexp to fill that role? What's your point? Suggesting Mist is going to be there to heal people just hurts your suggestion she's worth the investment it takes to create a worthwhile combatant.


As if the game didn't throw enough money at you in the first place.
Not enough to buy five or so 15000+ forges.


And really, crit on forges? If people in this game are really so good, as int implies, why do they even need crit on their forges in the first place? And if their offense is really that bad, 9 crit is not going to do anything.
Tigers. Other things. Int's point isn't that units ORKO everything. It's that they ORKO so much and are so unlikely to die with a certain amount of bexp and the bexp it takes to make them ORKO absolutely everything is too staggering to consider. Hence, everyone gets some amount of bexp that gets them to a plateau, and anything more is a waste because they can't reach the next plateau. You could say crit on a weapon is for stuff on that next plateau.


This would only be useful if there were significantly more axe enemies than any other enemies. With any other combination of enemies she'd rather use lances anyway. The WTD she faces against axes is not going to be enough to overcome the WTA against lance and sword enemies where using a lance will do her more than using a sword, as well as WTN against laguz and such.
Considering the existence of trading, Marcia can easily grab a sword, blick a warrior, get her weapon traded back to a lance, and have at it on enemy phase with all those sword and lance users. Marcia gets hit if she attacks an axe user with a lance. Or at least, more often. And it's possible she isn't supporting Tanith, making it hurt even more.


Silver Lance isn't even buyable until chapter 23. She can't use something that doesn't exist. Jill's problem isn't attack anyway. Her att is about the same as Kieran, and Kieran doesn't have att problems. So this also goes for forged steel lance.
Right, there totally isn't a silver lance in chapter 16. ...wait...
I'm not sure if there is more than just that, though.


Why would she used forged javelin when she could just as easily use forged hand axe, and the hand axe will even help build her axe rank?
Limited number of forges. Kieran or someone could be using the one or two hand axes created. And I'm not sure when javelins can first be forged, but its entirely possible she got one before promotion. Why give it up and take a hand axe forge from someone else when she has a perfectly usable javelin forge? Besides, hand axe is only 1 wexp, unlike steel axe. I suppose 1 is better than none, but my point is that even if she uses the hand axe it makes it slower. And what about the steel forge I mentioned? Same idea applies as to the ranged weapons. Only I'm actually certain that steel forges are available before Jill promotes.


Brave axe is only B rank. You saw how easily Mak and Astrid reached A rank for silver axes, and Jill has a head start since she should promote before them.
Except she might not. I already mentioned why she might not be wielding a weapon that gives 4 wexp every single double. Sure, she only needs 120 wexp, but that isn't simply 30 attacks. She might get there anyway, though. But she's not the only one.


Which every other axe user wants and only 1-2 of each are available in the entire game? This is a non-issue.
How is it a non-issue? Just because the others exist doesn't mean they want them. The forged hand axes will be better, only a lot of your axe users may have A rank already so they don't care that hand axes only give 1 wexp (they can use forges and have more mt than a short axe would give, or the same anyway). Get your brand new axe user to C rank quickly for a short axe and they are getting 2 wexp each hit instead of one. Faster to Silver.


Using up two physic staves already gives Mist 660 exp.
Sorry, first one is in chapter 15 in the desert. Assuming you want to meet the turn requirements, you might get something else along the way. Though physic is a good idea. Then there is one in a chest in chapter 16. Next is in 17-2 and needs to be stolen. Point is, she's not getting a physic until chapter 15, Rhys probably has the first one though due to higher magic. Second one is hers, though. Besides, it takes 15 turns to use one and that's only 330 exp. And we aren't swimming in physic yet, so she probably can't freely spam until chapter 18.


No, Mist won't promote in chapter 16 or 17. But she will by chapter 18. And with the steady flow of physics thanks to Volke stealing them, as well as all the other high rank staves, her level will skyrocket.

22 exp vs. how much Mia gets for kills? Also consider enemy phase means many many kills for units like her?


Again, though, the point isn't that once Mist gets going she's still crap and thus not worth the investment. That isn't the case. The idea is that she takes a lot more bexp to promote at a reasonable point in time. Possibly an over the line amount, possibly not. Int still appears to be undecided. I'm undecided. Also, since nobody has suggested moving her down it actually doesn't matter that he's saying she may not be worth the investment. And it's not like anybody is saying that since Mist/Rhys don't need bexp there is more for others. If we were saying that then defending Mist's right to some bexp would be a worthy endeavour. We aren't, so it doean't matter. Unless you want to move her from where she currently is, or one of us tries to move her down, there isn't much point in bothering.

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37 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:05 pm

I don't quite remember how it was done, but Reikken or someone had a method to get 20/1 Mist at Ch. 17 or 18 with a fairly reasonable amount of BEXP.

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38 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:09 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:I don't quite remember how it was done, but Reikken or someone had a method to get 20/1 Mist at Ch. 17 or 18 with a fairly reasonable amount of BEXP.

I always pulled it off, but I dumped lots of bexp on her and torched like every turn in chapter 14 making some units use vulneraries once or twice and probably used physic in chapter 16 with her (I don't care about Rhys) even when she could stand next to a unit and mend. Also I think I had like 3 or 4 uses of ward left in chapter 17. I'm not sure whether or not this is beyond the line of what is reasonable.

Anyway, I think I had her promoted in 17-3 or something. (I also promote Laura mid-way through chapter 3-6 in RD. At level 20. On HM. Without abuse in part 1. Take a guess how much bexp is spent on non-Laura units in part 1 to pull that one off.)


Still, maybe I should search through the 3 recent PoR tier lists on serenes to see if I can find his post. Do you know which topic? (Cynthia's, Vykan's, or Sirius/Vergil's)



(Oh, in case anybody has forgotten, you know who is Int's favourite character? I'll give you a hint, it's not Mia. So his comments definitely do not stem from any anti-Mist sentiments.)

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39 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:12 am

Red Fox of Fire wrote:I don't quite remember how it was done, but Reikken or someone had a method to get 20/1 Mist at Ch. 17 or 18 with a fairly reasonable amount of BEXP.

I ran calculations too.

Chapters 1-8 - You accumulate up to 1500 BEXP. In a 10-man team, everyone is allotted 150 BEXP, including your healer.
Chapter 9 - 8 turns for max BEXP. You get 300 bexp. Everyone is allotted 30 BEXP.
Chapter 10 - 700 BEXP for stealth. 300 BEXP for clearing it in 12 turns, but -30 per turn over the limit.
Chapter 11 - 7 turns. 300 BEXP for clearing, up to 50 x 5 BEXP for each Vigilante saved.
Chapter 12 - 9, but you will want to wait around until the crow with the angelic robe comes, which you will kill at turn 14 or so. 200 BEXP for clearing, but waiting for 5 turns means you lose 100 BEXP.
Chapter 13 - 10. Up to 50 x X amount, where X = number of units not deployed. Can deploy up to 11 units.
Chapter 14 - 5. 300 BEXP.
Chapter 15 - 7. 300 BEXP. You also get 40 BEXP per laguz alive (19 total), and an extra 300 if all 19 survive, so up to an additional 1060 BEXP.
Chapter 16 - 8. 400 BEXP.
Chapter 17 - 30. 700 BEXP

Mist starts at level 1.
Chapter 9. 8 heals. 88 exp. 1.88. End of chapter, she gets the 150 BEXP from chapters 1-8, plus an additional 30 for beating chapter 9. 180 BEXP total. To make this simple, I'll also throw in the 70 BEXP she gets from chapter 10, since healers aren't really needed in chapter 10 so no staff exp anyway. So that's 250 BEXP. 250 - 85 - 87 - 89 = she gets about 2.88 levels from this.
Mist's level at the end of chapter 10 is 4.76

Chapter 11. 2 heals. Then she hits D staves and switches to mend. 5 mend. 82 exp. Level is 5.58. Then 30 BEXP. That's about .32 levels.
Mist's level at the end of 11 is 5.90.

Chapter 12. 13 mend. 156 exp. Level 746. Then you get 100 BEXP and she gets 10. About .11 levels.
Mist's level at the end of 12 is 7.57.
Note that Mist has C staves.

Chapter 13. 3 ward, 7 mend. 135 exp. Level 8.92.

Chapter 14. 1 torch, 2 restore, 3 mend. 71 exp. Level 9.63.
30 BEXP gets her .29 levels.
Mist at the end of 14 is 9.92.

Chapter 15. 3 ward, 7 mend. 135 exp. Level 11.27.
136 BEXP gets her about 1.25 levels.
Mist at the end of 15 is 12.52.

Chapter 16. 2 ward, 6 physic. 166 exp. Level 14.18
40 BEXP gets her about .34 levels.
Mist at the end of 16 is 14.52.

Chapter 17. 2 ward, 24 physic, 4 mend. 610 exp. Mist is level 20.62.
70 BEXP gets her about .49 levels.
Mist at the end of 17 is about 21.11. or 20/1, with 11 more exp.
Or, if you're so inclined, you can use the master seal on Mist when she's level 20 to save 100 exp.

You can argue all the intricacies you want. But even assuming small mathematical errors, as well as -1 staff uses at the beginning of most chapters due to not reaching anyone (doesn't apply when she uses torch, ward, or physic though), she still should be at least level 20 for master seal use. I also underestimated BEXP at times (for example I assumed all of the vigilantes in ch 11 died when keeping them alive is 50 BEXP each).

And here were reikken's calculations.

11 = Heal
12 = Mend
15 = Torch
17 = Ward
20 = Restore
22 = Physic

9 - 8x11 --------------------------- 88 --- 1.88
10 - 1x11 ------------------------- 11 --- 1.99

500-85=415 -> 2.99
415-87=328 -> 3.99
328-89=239 -> 4.99
239-91=148 -> 5.99
148-93=55 -> 6.99
55-55=0 -> 7.56

11 - 1x11+7x12 ---------------------- 95 --- 8.51
12 - 13x12 ----------------------------156 --- 10.07
13 - 2x17+8x12 -------------------- 130 --- 11.37 (Ward remaining - 13)
14 - 2x15+2x20+4x12 ------------118 --- 12.55
15 - 1x17+2x12+8x22 ----------- 217 --- 14.72 (Physic - 7, Ward - 12)
16 - 2x17+7x22+1x12 ----------- 200 --- 16.72 (Physic - 15, Ward - 10)
17.1-1x20+4x22+1x12 ---------- 120 --- 17.92 (Physic - 11)
17.2-7x22 ---------------------------- 154 --- 19.46 (Physic - 19)
17.3-2x17+2x20+5x22+1x12 - 196 --- 20/1.42 (Physic - 14, Ward - Cool
17.4- she's already promoted, lol

BTW, Mist is not very reliant on her level for offense. It relies FAR more on her ability to use the SS (and continue to use it via hammerne) than levels, since her growths are lolterrible (35 str, 40 spd, 15 def lololol. 50 mag is her only decent growth, but unless she's really underleveled she 2HKOs with SS anyway). To prove my point, here's a comprehensive list of enemies in chapter 18 that a 17/1 Mist with the SS (or switching to a generic steel sword when needed) cannot ORKO that a 20/4 Boyd (a unit well known for his offense) can. Ready?

Well that was a long list.

Mist can be ~5 levels behind Boyd and still have the same spd (provided she's promoted, as she gets 3 from promotion), and they'll have enough att to 2HKO everything they double (Mist uses steel sword on bishops).

Being able to use the high exp staves for free levels is just for the hell of it and to rub it in Mia's face. She doesn't actually require it.

Unless Boyd suddenly has terrible offense.

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40 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:21 am

Problem with that is, she's healing every single turn. Not only is this hard to do thanks to her small mobility, but it's also very wasteful on staves. Considering Rhys can use a mend stave from chapter 6 to chapter 11 before Mist can even use one, having 20 uses of it gone after 34 turns isn't impossible. Strangely enougth, Ward doesn't actually appear in the shops in HM or as an item elsewhere. Basically, no ward. Even if there's only 1 ward, that doesn't mean Rhys doesn't want it for exp as well.

Blah blah blah. I don't think we should ignore Int's levels quite so easily, as even with a bit of bexp, it seems she's only going to reach level 17 or so in Int's playthrough.

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41 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:23 am

smash fanatic wrote:I ran calculations too.

Chapters 1-8 - You accumulate up to 1500 BEXP. In a 10-man team, everyone is allotted 150 BEXP, including your healer. [...]
smash, equal BEXP allotment is not efficient, as all units do not benefit (read: contribute to the army) equally with it. So therefore, since this is an efficiency tier list, assuming such a thing undermines whatever points you make. In that line, there are two huge problems with your post.

First, note that Mist's returns on BEXP are very small until she promotes and can use the Sonic Sword. By this, I mean that what she contributes personally to the army during her tier 1 time is minimally altered by BEXP. Basically, BEXP just increases her durability (something of dubious worth, since even having her take hits is a combat inefficiency since she will not counter), and makes her heals slightly stronger. Since Mend is eventually MAG + 20 for her, and we have Rhys as a secondary healer with vulneraries for emergencies, the benefit of these somewhat-stronger heals I think is dubious.

Again, the point here is that Mist gobbles up BEXP starting in Ch. 10, but doesn't make good on the investment until Ch. 18. This is, I think a pretty big problem.


Secondly, your suggested roadmap for getting Mist to promotion is extraordinarily constraining in terms of strategy. Let's face facts, here: Mist has 5MV. The amount of healing that you're advocating seems very difficult to make happen when we're simultaneously moving forward as quickly as possible, never mind the frequent occurances when there are simply no people that she can use a staff on, just because of circumstance.


Being able to use the high exp staves for free levels is just for the hell of it and to rub it in Mia's face. She doesn't actually require it.

This quote here basically encapsulates what's wrong with your argument. Rub it in Mia's face? You've ignored pre-Ch. 18 contributions and divvied up BEXP in an inefficient manner, all for what gives the impression of an anti-Mia hachet job. Neutral

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42 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:08 pm

Kirsche wrote:Problem with that is, she's healing every single turn. Not only is this hard to do thanks to her small mobility,

You can argue all the intricacies you want. But even assuming small mathematical errors, as well as -1 staff uses at the beginning of most chapters due to not reaching anyone (doesn't apply when she uses torch, ward, or physic though), she still should be at least level 20 for master seal use. I also underestimated BEXP at times (for example I assumed all of the vigilantes in ch 11 died when keeping them alive is 50 BEXP each).


but it's also very wasteful on staves.

You mean staves that would be otherwise sitting in your inventory doing absolutely nothing because of how few staff users there are in the game and most of the other staff users are mid tier, implying they won't even be fielded that often anyway?

With all the complaints I get of not using all the BEXP (which, believe it or not, I actually do use up most of my BEXP, generally on my shitty units, only the difference between me and half the people on this board is taht I realize needing more BEXP does not make my unit a higher tier), letting these staves rot in the inventory seems to be a double standard, no?


Considering Rhys can use a mend stave from chapter 6 to chapter 11 before Mist can even use one, having 20 uses of it gone after 34 turns isn't impossible.

Mist only used 5 mends in my calculations, are you saying that we must have >15 uses of Rhys healing for more than 30 HP? Bro, the only unit that might actually need a 30+ HP heal is Boyd.


Strangely enougth, Ward doesn't actually appear in the shops in HM or as an item elsewhere. Basically, no ward. Even if there's only 1 ward, that doesn't mean Rhys doesn't want it for exp as well.

Barrier (aka ward) is a chest in ch 7.

And for all this talk about training and maintenance, I lawl heartily at giving Rhys exp. If Mist is a waste of exp, I don't even want to think about Rhys, who requires far, far more than Mist to become any good at combat.


Blah blah blah. I don't think we should ignore Int's levels quite so easily, as even with a bit of bexp, it seems she's only going to reach level 17 or so in Int's playthrough.

Int boasts about the fact that he has every unit on his team at a level higher than 20/1 at chapter 18 (other than Ike ofcourse since he just promoted) while still having 1500+ BEXP in base.

He also claims that his team at this point is so ridiculous he doesn't even use supporters and barely requires healing. Implying that more levels on them is pointless.

Yet he doesn't want to spend ~500 BEXP on Mist (note: when the high rank staves appear, she will no longer need ANY BEXP, so this is basically 500 BEXP over the course of the ENTIRE GAME).

Really, do you want to see how much exp Mist can get?

Chapter 18, 10 turns for max BEXP.
Chapter 19, 9.
20, 10.
21, 18.
22, 12.

Using a physic on just half of those turns and doing NOTHING ELSE (5 + 4 + 5 + 9 + 6) is already 638 exp. Replace 3 physic uses with 3 silences, and now her exp actually goes up to 662. Replace another 3 physics with 3 rescues and her exp goes up to 716.

By the end of ch 22 the ashera staff comes along, and since it's an S-rank staff only Mist and Rhys can use it (technically ELincia too, but lolelincia), if neither use this staff it's going to just sit in the inventory so I don't want to hear any complaints about wasting thsi staff, k? This is already 300 exp with 3 blasts.

This is already 10 levels, accounting for her exp gains for only HALF the turns in these chapters (plus a few turns into ch 23) and NO BEXP beyond chapter 18 at all.

And here we're complaining about Mist using up ~500 BEXP from chapters 1-17 when she's probably not even going to touch BEXP again afterwards?

Do you even realize how little Mist requires to keep her level up, which she doesn't even HAVE to do because 17/1 Mist has about the same offense as 20/4 Boyd (similar spd, both 2HKO everything they double, provided Mist has the SS. And their spd growth only differs by 5)? Mist pulls most of her exp from a pool that very few can even use, and the others that can actually use this pool are mid tier so they won't even be competing with her that often. Even if we field Rhys or a mage, there's enough staves to go around to get both them + Mist by spamming them.

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43 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:46 pm

smash fanatic wrote:You can argue all the intricacies you want. But even assuming small mathematical errors, as well as -1 staff uses at the beginning of most chapters due to not reaching anyone (doesn't apply when she uses torch, ward, or physic though), she still should be at least level 20 for master seal use. I also underestimated BEXP at times (for example I assumed all of the vigilantes in ch 11 died when keeping them alive is 50 BEXP each).

You cannot just hand-wave Mist's mobility issues and say that she's going to be level 20 regardless of any fatal flaws that people point out. Mist has trouble keeping up with people, and there's not always going to be someone to heal even when she's in range. This costs her significant staff CEXP opportunities.

(which, believe it or not, I actually do use up most of my BEXP, generally on my shitty units, only the difference between me and half the people on this board is taht I realize needing more BEXP does not make my unit a higher tier)

smash, this tier list is based on efficiency, not BEXP use. There's a difference between those two things. This is a very straightforward point.

Yet he doesn't want to spend ~500 BEXP on Mist

I'm very specifically doing a playthrough in which I do exactly that, aka give Mist a bunch of BEXP.

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44 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:44 am

Which suggests that you think Mist can get 9 levels in like 2 chapters since she won't promote until chapter 20 or so and Mia can't get past 20/10 by chapter 23?

see smash's exp calculations

And, is it jsut me, or did everyone ignore the part where smash pointed out that a 17/1 Mist with the SS would roughly tie 20/4 Boyd in offense?


Yippee. She can get that at level 10 with a seal.

And Mia can't get a horse ever.


Okay, you clearly aren't reading Int's posts well enough. Or at least lacking in skills like reading comprehension. It's not that Mist isn't worth investing in, it's that it takes a lot more than Mia, and Mia was already somewhat high in the maintenance department.

Wrath for mia is already more maintenance than anything Mist could need.

Turning one of several other possible units into a monster with wrath versus being able to sell arms scrolls so I can forge an amazing 9 crit onto my forges

Having Mia fall under half HP every single chapter versus using a hammerne or two on Mist's SS

It doesn't take a genius to see which is bigger.


Besides, Mist's primary function can be accomplished without any bexp. You can physic and mend just as easily without getting to level 20. If you want the horse so badly you can seal her early, too. Promoting at level 10 to 14 will of course severly limit Mist's combat abilities, though sonic sword should still ORKO wyverns. Here's another thought for you:
Mia takes bexp and uses it every turn. Or at least every turn there are nearby enemies. Mist spends half her time healing people, something she can do without the investment. Which means even if they took equal amounts of bexp it may not be worth it. Mist takes more bexp.

Mist can heal on player phase and be ready to counter/kill enemies on enemy phase so I have no idea what you're complaining about.



...okay...
So Mist may pull a slight durability win by chapter 25 or so after spamming silence and sleep on things that don't need it just to catch up in level. And that's assuming Mia doesn't get wrath, because you may have noticed that no matter what you give Mist (even vantage + wrath + SS) she still won't come close to Mia's 1 range durability if Mia has wrath.

Also, I don't think there are enough enemies close enough together for Mist to actually get killed by any in a single turn, and if you let Mist get down to single digits and don't heal her and then send her up against enemies you have problems.

Sorry for the hyperbole, but for someone who initially said that the res lead between the two didn't matter, you're pulling a fast one on me.

And if we're throwing resources around, Mist wins because she gets the SS and now ORKOs everything at 1-2 range while Mia only ORKOs at 1-range. 1-2 range also means she wards off 1-2 range enemies much better than Mia (indirectly making her more durable against those enemies) or kill them off, depending on the situation.


Tigers. Other things. Int's point isn't that units ORKO everything. It's that they ORKO so much and are so unlikely to die with a certain amount of bexp and the bexp it takes to make them ORKO absolutely everything is too staggering to consider. Hence, everyone gets some amount of bexp that gets them to a plateau, and anything more is a waste because they can't reach the next plateau. You could say crit on a weapon is for stuff on that next plateau.

Forging 9 crit means my crit on tigers go from about 5 to 14.

I don't know about you, but I'm not praying for a ~1/4 chance of killing an enemy type taht is relatively rare.

Trying to hype more crit from forges would be like trying to hype Zihark's adept before promotion (before he is capable of 2HKOing anything except mages), except Zihark's adept helps him against every enemy while this crit would help against tigers and generals and that's more or less it.


Right, there totally isn't a silver lance in chapter 16. ...wait...

It would help if you read beyond the first two sentences.

Silver Lance isn't even buyable until chapter 23. She can't use something that doesn't exist. Jill's problem isn't attack anyway. Her att is about the same as Kieran, and Kieran doesn't have att problems. So this also goes for forged steel lance.

Also, I forgot. Silver Lance is A rank, and weapon ranks cap at B before promotion, so Jill can't even use it until she promotes, and by then, she'll certainly have little to no att issues.


I'm not sure if there is more than just that, though.

It doesn't even matter, because there are enough lance users that want the silver lance (Neph, Marcia, etc.) anyway.

Also, to my knowledge, it is the only silver lance available before chapter 23.


Limited number of forges. Kieran or someone could be using the one or two hand axes created. And I'm not sure when javelins can first be forged, but its entirely possible she got one before promotion. Why give it up and take a hand axe forge from someone else when she has a perfectly usable javelin forge? Besides, hand axe is only 1 wexp, unlike steel axe. I suppose 1 is better than none, but my point is that even if she uses the hand axe it makes it slower.

IIRC you can't even forge 1-2 range weapons until chapter 18 where everyone is promoted, so if we're forging 1-2 range weapons for Jill it's not going to be a javelin.


And what about the steel forge I mentioned? Same idea applies as to the ranged weapons. Only I'm actually certain that steel forges are available before Jill promotes.

Silver Lance isn't even buyable until chapter 23. She can't use something that doesn't exist. Jill's problem isn't attack anyway. Her att is about the same as Kieran, and Kieran doesn't have att problems. So this also goes for forged steel lance.


Sorry, first one is in chapter 15 in the desert. Assuming you want to meet the turn requirements, you might get something else along the way. Though physic is a good idea. Then there is one in a chest in chapter 16. Next is in 17-2 and needs to be stolen. Point is, she's not getting a physic until chapter 15, Rhys probably has the first one though due to higher magic. Second one is hers, though. Besides, it takes 15 turns to use one and that's only 330 exp. And we aren't swimming in physic yet, so she probably can't freely spam until chapter 18.

Physic by chapter 16 on Mist is more than enough time to let her spam it and get her level up.

We're not going to have a shortage of physics or any of the high rank staves unless we fielded Mist, Rhys, AND a mage. I don't think I need to explain how ridiculous that sounds.


How is it a non-issue? Just because the others exist doesn't mean they want them. The forged hand axes will be better, only a lot of your axe users may have A rank already so they don't care that hand axes only give 1 wexp (they can use forges and have more mt than a short axe would give, or the same anyway). Get your brand new axe user to C rank quickly for a short axe and they are getting 2 wexp each hit instead of one. Faster to Silver.

They already have little to no problems reaching A rank for silver axes, so if your only reason to rush to a higher axe rank so they can get WEXP faster, you'll need to try again.


Again, though, the point isn't that once Mist gets going she's still crap and thus not worth the investment. That isn't the case. The idea is that she takes a lot more bexp to promote at a reasonable point in time. Possibly an over the line amount, possibly not. Int still appears to be undecided. I'm undecided. Also, since nobody has suggested moving her down it actually doesn't matter that he's saying she may not be worth the investment.

It's the double standard for Mia that's the problem.


22 exp vs. how much Mia gets for kills? Also consider enemy phase means many many kills for units like her?

Mist uses physics, mia would need to kill an enemy that is no lower than 2 levels below her to get the same exp. But Mist can do this every turn as long as someone on the team is damaged, while Mia has to be near an enemy. And physic isn't the only staff Mist can use.

On enemy phase they can both get kills.


And it's not like anybody is saying that since Mist/Rhys don't need bexp there is more for others.

Which is why Int likes to brag about having over 1500 BEXP left in base at chapter 18 when he has both mist and Rhys at level 10 or below, right?

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45 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:27 am

I'm not seeing how giving Mist BEXP, sole staff usage, a few arms scrolls, and the SS has a lower cost than giving Mia wrath and BEXP. Or rather, a higher net gain. I mean, I just wasted large amounts of BEXP, used staffs I didn't need to use, arms scrolls I could of used for other people or used for money, and a sword that I could give to any sword user and get benefits out of since there aren't any other 1-2 range swords just to make Mist into a combat unit. It's not like I don't already have 8+ of those by the time she gets there. At least wrath on Mia will give me an extended range on the difficult to kill enemy types and a substantial durability increase due to likelihood of blicking before the enemy actually attacks.


Then I have to use Hammerne on the SS just to keep Mist as a combat unit. At least I never have to worry about Mia suddenly turning into a non-combatant so long as she's alive.

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46 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:33 am

I agree that it's better to take Wrath than to have to work for EXP and play catch up, as the ability to Wrath is never going to go away and the effects are immediate.

And it's not like Mist will be as good of a user of Wrath since Mia will have an availability advantage on it.

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47 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:42 am

Mist isn't THAT bad at combat with forged steel.

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48 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:23 am

I'm not seeing how giving Mist BEXP, sole staff usage, a few arms scrolls, and the SS has a lower cost than giving Mia wrath and BEXP. Or rather, a higher net gain. I mean, I just wasted large amounts of BEXP, used staffs I didn't need to use, arms scrolls I could of used for other people or used for money, and a sword that I could give to any sword user and get benefits out of since there aren't any other 1-2 range swords just to make Mist into a combat unit.

There are many things wrong or blown out of proportion with this.

- It's far, FAR less BEXP than what Mia needs. Mist only needs about 500 BEXP between chapters 1-17 and most likely will never need anymore ever again. Unless you're implying that Mia doesn't need any BEXP beyond chapter 17. Pretty sure that Mia trying to use less BEXP than Mist just turns into a sack of shit.

- Staves taht would be otherwise sitting in your inventory. AKA how the fuck is this wasteful? BTW there's enough of the uber staves like physic and sleep to go around unless you're using more than 2 staff users, and there's only five real staff users in the game to begin with (lolelincia) and four of them are currently in mid tier or worse, so I'm going to lol irl if you, or anyone, actually tries to argue to field 2+ mid tiers just so we can sandbag Mist.

- Arms scrolls that few, if any, need. Or sell for money, only the game throws tons and tons of money at us in the first place anyway. I like how everyone pretends that money doesn't matter, and then when I suddenly say that money doesn't matter, everyone suddenly says "MONEY MATTERS!!!11!"

- Swords where the only units that could possibly fight over it are the mono sword users (as if people like Mak or Marcia are ever going to use SS when they have javelins/hand axes available), but Mist has so much more mag it's not funny. Ike and the SMs have such poor att with it they shouldn't even bother to use it in the first place.

Versus

A skill that can make several other units godmode because wrath is just that big a jump in offense? Or you dump the vantage + wrath scroll on any random noobshit unit and they become godly, and the fact that vantage by itself is freaking terrible means that losing vantage doesn't mean anything unless I'm using Neph?

"BUT MIA USES WRATH BEST", only, even if that were true, are you implying that Mist ISN'T the best user of the things like SS by a gigantic margin?

It's not like I don't already have 8+ of those by the time she gets there.

Yeah, this isn't the case for Mia too, only she just gets outclassed by these 8+ fighters the entire game while Mist isn't useful with staves before promotion and even though she gets outclassed as a fighter after promotion, she still has staves.

At least wrath on Mia will give me an extended range on the difficult to kill enemy types

Mist with SS has the same, or even better, offense than Boyd. Are you trying to imply that Mist with SS, and therefore Boyd, do NOT have ridiculous offense as well?

and a substantial durability increase due to likelihood of blicking before the enemy actually attacks.

Actually, it's a situational durability increase. She's still useless versus enemeis taht aren't locked to 1-range (bows, magic, etc.) and even for the enemies locked to 1-range she's not going to OHKO all of them with a crit unless she uses the VK, except now she's at half HP or below, so now she sucks EVEN MORE against these enemies as if there's too many of these kinds of enemies in range she has to stay in the back or risk dying.

Then I have to use Hammerne on the SS just to keep Mist as a combat unit. At least I never have to worry about Mia suddenly turning into a non-combatant so long as she's alive.

Actually, for Mia to always have a 100% chance of critting, she'll require the VK or killing edges, both of which are in limited supply. Not to mention that, with the KE, she may not OHKO the tankier enemies such as generals or wyverns.

In other words, both are going to require Hammerne uses.

And for someone who complains that the SS could've gone to other units, hoo boy, the killing edge and VK are actually weapons that EVERY sword user wants, especially before promotion.

I agree that it's better to take Wrath than to have to work for EXP and play catch up, as the ability to Wrath is never going to go away and the effects are immediate.

And it's not like Mist will be as good of a user of Wrath since Mia will have an availability advantage on it.

Wrath isn't even usable until ch 19 base bro, and ch 19 has little fighting at all, so ch 20 is the first real chapter for wrath, wtf is this "availability advantage" you're talking about?

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49 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:45 am

the great haar wrote:
Which suggests that you think Mist can get 9 levels in like 2 chapters since she won't promote until chapter 20 or so and Mia can't get past 20/10 by chapter 23?

see smash's exp calculations

And, is it jsut me, or did everyone ignore the part where smash pointed out that a 17/1 Mist with the SS would roughly tie 20/4 Boyd in offense?

Just read nflchamp's post.



Yippee. She can get that at level 10 with a seal.

And Mia can't get a horse ever.
So? The point is that you can't bring up the horse as an advantage of bexping Mist when she can easily get the thing without bexp.

Mist with bexp gets horse.
MIst without bexp gets horse.
Guess which way costs less?


Okay, you clearly aren't reading Int's posts well enough. Or at least lacking in skills like reading comprehension. It's not that Mist isn't worth investing in, it's that it takes a lot more than Mia, and Mia was already somewhat high in the maintenance department.

Wrath for mia is already more maintenance than anything Mist could need.
Then you have serious issues understanding the arguments for giving Mia wrath. Also, she doesn't technically need wrath to be good. Just (less) bexp (than Mist takes). Wrath just makes her go from good to epic (against 1-range stuff she 3HKOs only, which is why lots of other units are still better).


Turning one of several other possible units into a monster with wrath versus being able to sell arms scrolls so I can forge an amazing 9 crit onto my forges
It's not just the arms scrolls. They are just one thing on top of another. And only Zihark/Largo become as monstrous with wrath, because they are the only ones with a crit bonus. And Zihark the only one that can wield Vague Katti and have the crit boost. And Mia is the only one with a free wrath and then you can stick vantage on some other unit (Nephenee or a unit with guard + brave). And Mia's gains are bigger than Zihark's anyway thanks to his earth affinity canceling out most of the durability increase from Vantage + Wrath. So if they are on the same team it makes no sense to give it to Zihark. If they are on different teams then Mia isn't competing with Z anyway and they can both have it.

So then Mist comes along and either holds up the army by forcing them to stay near her and get healed every time they level up for 1 hp and various other constraining tactics and she takes bexp and you assume Rhys or another healer isn't using physic.


Having Mia fall under half HP every single chapter versus using a hammerne or two on Mist's SS

It doesn't take a genius to see which is bigger.
Even so you fail to see it. I'd suggest recommending that it does take a genius. That way the fact you can't see it isn't as big a problem.


Besides, Mist's primary function can be accomplished without any bexp. You can physic and mend just as easily without getting to level 20. If you want the horse so badly you can seal her early, too. Promoting at level 10 to 14 will of course severly limit Mist's combat abilities, though sonic sword should still ORKO wyverns. Here's another thought for you:
Mia takes bexp and uses it every turn. Or at least every turn there are nearby enemies. Mist spends half her time healing people, something she can do without the investment. Which means even if they took equal amounts of bexp it may not be worth it. Mist takes more bexp.

Mist can heal on player phase and be ready to counter/kill enemies on enemy phase so I have no idea what you're complaining about.
How about from chapter 10 until promotion where she eats bexp and does virtually nothing with it? And the fact that Mia has a bunch more player phases with it. There are bow users to attack for free on player phase, and since we just gave Mist the SS for free (you haven't yet even bothered trying to justify that) she should be attacking at 2 range on units that can't counter on player phase, not healing. But we already have multiple capable combatants, spending tons of bexp on Mist isn't necessary. She's a healer, and after promotion is rather good at it, and you have combatants. If you choose to deploy Mist, she's already good at something. Why bother with something else?



Also, I don't think there are enough enemies close enough together for Mist to actually get killed by any in a single turn, and if you let Mist get down to single digits and don't heal her and then send her up against enemies you have problems.
Really? Because if that's the case then why does anybody care about Zihark's earth compared to Mia? Because you have the option of throwing a unit against 5 units that 3HKO him/her with a reasonable expectation of continued living. Sure, you could just position them such that they only face 2 units and we know they will live, but that's why the units with that kind of durability are better. So with neither getting wrath you are looking at similar durability, with both compared with wrath Mia wins by virtue of crit bonus and vantage.


Sorry for the hyperbole, but for someone who initially said that the res lead between the two didn't matter, you're pulling a fast one on me.
How so?


And if we're throwing resources around, Mist wins because she gets the SS and now ORKOs everything at 1-2 range while Mia only ORKOs at 1-range. 1-2 range also means she wards off 1-2 range enemies much better than Mia (indirectly making her more durable against those enemies) or kill them off, depending on the situation.
See, this is what I detest about people from the smash school of resource distribution. "Throwing resources around". We have justified, or at least attempted to justify, every single resource spent in terms of how it affects the team. People like you just glaze over that and then say "oh now we can give xyz to this other unit" and you don't justify it. You just say that if we gave stuff to one unit you can give whatever you want to yours. And then you still get it wrong because Mia will have such a huge durability advantage at one range despite what you give Mist without justification. Wrath plus killer/vague katti means that Mia will not die at one range unless the enemy has tremendous amounts of hp/def. Mia would still win that combat comparison. There aren't enough 1-2 range enemies. And you ignore that if Mia has wrath she is actually a viable user of the SS. Now, Mist ORKOs guaranteed with it and is thus arguably a better user (though Mia has vantage and Mist doesn't) but Mist may not be a combatant on Mia's team, so it may not matter.




Forging 9 crit means my crit on tigers go from about 5 to 14.

I don't know about you, but I'm not praying for a ~1/4 chance of killing an enemy type taht is relatively rare.
Who suggests doing that? Besides, I said more than just tigers. Also, if we are so rich, why not stick crit on stuff? It at least gives you a chance. On top of that, you can only forge so many times. If you stick crit on a forge then that extends the number of uses. Considering how many units need a forge to 2HKO various enemy types, I'd have to say that being able to use one for an extra 3 or 4 battles is worthwhile. This isn't RD where making cheaper forges is a good idea because you can make multiples in a single chapter.


Trying to hype more crit from forges would be like trying to hype Zihark's adept before promotion (before he is capable of 2HKOing anything except mages), except Zihark's adept helps him against every enemy while this crit would help against tigers and generals and that's more or less it.
Um, crit helps on player phase to occasionally avoid counters. Also to extend the life of a forge. Combine with guard and that makes it even better. Crit could help with wyverns, too. And Zihark's adept is an advantage he has over Mia before promotion. So is Mia's vantage before she gets swordmaster crit. Although hype suggests weighing it at a higher level than it needs to be. Still, Mist isn't giving us anything we don't already have with those arms scrolls, whereas any unit given crit on the forge in theory provides something new.



Right, there totally isn't a silver lance in chapter 16. ...wait...

It would help if you read beyond the first two sentences.
You don't think I did?


Silver Lance isn't even buyable until chapter 23. She can't use something that doesn't exist. Jill's problem isn't attack anyway. Her att is about the same as Kieran, and Kieran doesn't have att problems. So this also goes for forged steel lance.

Also, I forgot. Silver Lance is A rank, and weapon ranks cap at B before promotion, so Jill can't even use it until she promotes, and by then, she'll certainly have little to no att issues.
Cool, who knew? Is there a list somewhere for the max ranks and when you can forge stuff? Besides, no way is she ORKOing everything.


I'm not sure if there is more than just that, though.

It doesn't even matter, because there are enough lance users that want the silver lance (Neph, Marcia, etc.) anyway.
What about how every single sword user can grab the SS? Even if they just hold it for attacking wyverns or something.


Also, to my knowledge, it is the only silver lance available before chapter 23.
Perhaps. Don't really know.


Limited number of forges. Kieran or someone could be using the one or two hand axes created. And I'm not sure when javelins can first be forged, but its entirely possible she got one before promotion. Why give it up and take a hand axe forge from someone else when she has a perfectly usable javelin forge? Besides, hand axe is only 1 wexp, unlike steel axe. I suppose 1 is better than none, but my point is that even if she uses the hand axe it makes it slower.

IIRC you can't even forge 1-2 range weapons until chapter 18 where everyone is promoted, so if we're forging 1-2 range weapons for Jill it's not going to be a javelin.
Well, that all depends. At that point, you'd only have one. Neph is locked to lances, so maybe you want something to trade between her and Devdan and anybody capable of using lances.


And what about the steel forge I mentioned? Same idea applies as to the ranged weapons. Only I'm actually certain that steel forges are available before Jill promotes.

Silver Lance isn't even buyable until chapter 23. She can't use something that doesn't exist. Jill's problem isn't attack anyway. Her att is about the same as Kieran, and Kieran doesn't have att problems. So this also goes for forged steel lance.
I am in awe of how complete your proof is of Jill actually ORKOing everything with just an 11 mt weapon.


Sorry, first one is in chapter 15 in the desert. Assuming you want to meet the turn requirements, you might get something else along the way. Though physic is a good idea. Then there is one in a chest in chapter 16. Next is in 17-2 and needs to be stolen. Point is, she's not getting a physic until chapter 15, Rhys probably has the first one though due to higher magic. Second one is hers, though. Besides, it takes 15 turns to use one and that's only 330 exp. And we aren't swimming in physic yet, so she probably can't freely spam until chapter 18.

Physic by chapter 16 on Mist is more than enough time to let her spam it and get her level up.
sigh.


We're not going to have a shortage of physics or any of the high rank staves unless we fielded Mist, Rhys, AND a mage. I don't think I need to explain how ridiculous that sounds.
You don't think having two or three units capable of physicing is a good idea? And how about how a level 17 Mist heals 22 hp with a physic while a level 19 Rhys heals 27 hp. I'm not confident in Mist's ability to reduce the level gap that much unless you do things for her you won't do for Rhys, though, so it should be a much bigger gap. Also they have the same move and his range is more at this point. I ask you why give Mist your only physic? Wouldn't it make more sense to have her running around with her mend staff and Rhys with physic?


They already have little to no problems reaching A rank for silver axes, so if your only reason to rush to a higher axe rank so they can get WEXP faster, you'll need to try again.
E to A how quickly? That's 180 wexp, by the way. 90 doubles with hand axes. I think I'd rather let them use the short axe as quickly as possible. Not to mention the whole limited forges thing. If you truly can't forge range until chapter 18, that's actually more reason to scroll them up to C rank for short axe. If you don't, then all but one guy are stuck with a plain ol' hand axe.


Again, though, the point isn't that once Mist gets going she's still crap and thus not worth the investment. That isn't the case. The idea is that she takes a lot more bexp to promote at a reasonable point in time. Possibly an over the line amount, possibly not. Int still appears to be undecided. I'm undecided. Also, since nobody has suggested moving her down it actually doesn't matter that he's saying she may not be worth the investment.

It's the double standard for Mia that's the problem.
It's you lack of understanding that's the problem.

Prove there is a double standard.


Mist uses physics, mia would need to kill an enemy that is no lower than 2 levels below her to get the same exp. But Mist can do this every turn as long as someone on the team is damaged, while Mia has to be near an enemy. And physic isn't the only staff Mist can use.

On enemy phase they can both get kills.
You have serious issues following an argument, don't you? How could Mist possibly be getting kills on enemy phase before promotion?


And it's not like anybody is saying that since Mist/Rhys don't need bexp there is more for others.

Which is why Int likes to brag about having over 1500 BEXP left in base at chapter 18 when he has both mist and Rhys at level 10 or below, right?

Um, I think you are answering your question in your question. If there is 1500 bexp left, doesn't it stand to reason that the other units don't in fact need the bexp that Int didn't give to Mist/Rhys? Although, the bexp should go elsewhere since before promotion it's almost a waste to give them bexp. The only advantage is that going from level 3 to level 11 with bexp costs less than going from level 12 to 20. I'm not convinced that the gains from doing that are enough to counter what you could be gaining from that bexp during the time between when you dump that bexp on Mist and when she promotes.



edit: I'll just wait for Int to comment on smash's post, since I don't feel like bothering right now.

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50 Re: Sandbag Mia Topic on Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:33 pm

Basically Mia can become better for less. Being cheaper to be good is better than being expensive to be good, thus Mia>Mist.

Wrath is worth less than a bunch of stuff no one wants?

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