Aside from the Seperate EXP, why do we assume Cleric -> Sniper?

Cleric is not a good setup with these guys. I'd even argue Archer being better statistic-wise. Using Matthis as an example:

15/1 Archer - 38 HP | 12 Str | 11 Skl | 14 Spd | 4 Luck | 10 Def | 3 Res

15/1 Curate - 35 HP | 9 Str | 11 Skl | 13 Spd | 4 Luck | 8 Def | 7 Res

There's actually quite a difference here. 3 HP, 3 Str, 1 Spd, and 2 Def for 5 Res. Come on folks, even though it's 5 Mov terrain isn't that common here and Bows at least have effective Mt sometimes and avoids combat 9 times out of 10. Oh, and the Archer one has the chance to use Silver, which destorys the Curate's ass even more. Not to mention possible Parthia too, which just obliterates Curate.

Of course Curate might be a bit higher, but the more levels that Curate takes, the more Str that is kind of lost here. Even 20/1 Curate barely ties with 15/1 Archer:

39 HP | 9 Str | 12 Skl | 14 Spd | 5 Luck | 8 Def | 9 Res

It beats Archer by 1 HP, 1 Skl, 1 Luck, and I guess 6 Res while still losing 3 Str + Bow Rank.

Probably will be shot down with this, but any thoughts about it?

It's the only way for some characters to not suck. That, and it's difficult to argue as negative utility.

How much negative utility can really be thrown on Archer though? Keep in mind they aren't like Myrmidions which have to take a counter each time they attack. They also have chapters where they shine with effective Mt, and since Player Phase is put much more for weight than Enemy Phase it helps their case.

20/5 Curate - 42 HP, 24 Atk (Silver Bow), 16 AS, 9 Def

15/6 Archer - 43 HP, 28 Atk (Silver Bow), 16 AS, 12 Def

Let's just go for the hell of it and say it's C16:

Cav 8: [2 Jav 1 silver sword]
35 (36) HP
28 atk [26 Javelin]
109 hit [105 Javelin]
11 AS
9 def
1 res

Curate does 30 damage to this dude while Archer does 38 damage to this guy. There's actually a difference here. Defensively the 28 Atk dude actually 4HKOes the Archer route while 3HKOing the Curate (assuming the max Atk).

Horseman 6:
36 HP
22 atk
108 hit
16 AS
6 (7) def
3 res

Offensively the Archer route 2HKOes this dude (21 damage each). The Curate only does 34-36 damage, so he might not 2HKO all the time. Defensively Archer is... get this... a goddamn 5RKO.

There are significant differences here, even with Curate's higher levels.

The problem with Archer is that it is the culmination of the worst possible bases across, including Mov (which alone doesn't sound bad compared to healers or mages, but then add on the fact that it has mounted-like terrain type, pretty much most non-grass/non-tile terrain may as well be impassable walls, making Archer have the 2nd worst movement, where only Ballistians are worse).

The only things Archer are good for are shooting Dragon Knights and exploiting growths, which we value utility more than growths.

This does not mean Archer is not an option. There is no reason why Matthis can't go Archer on certain chapters (such as Ch. 10 where Archer actually would be useful) then return to Cleric.

Actually Archer's bases aren't much worse in comparison to a lot of other classes in Set A:

Archer - 16 HP | 5 Str | 3 Skl | 4 Spd | 6 Def

Cavalier - Definitely concede to.

Myrmidion - 16 HP | 3 Str | 9 Skl | 11 Spd | 4 Def

Don't jump the gun on this class being better. It also takes counterattacks all the time and the Str is actually pretty underwhelming.

Mage - 16 HP | 3 Mag | 1 Skl | 3 Spd | 2 Def | 3 Res

Just when you thought 4 Spd was terrible...

Curate - 16 HP | 1 Mag | 1 Skl | 4 Spd | 3 Def | 6 Res

All we have here is Healing.

The base differences are slightly blown out of porportion here. Nobody in these classes are doubling until much later in their careers anyway (unless you're PK!Shiida).

Also terrain is sparse in this game. There's some density of forests in a few areas, but for the most part they're pretty easy to go around or are nowhere near the goal line. I don't have the maps on hand so I'm going roughly off the top of my head, but I do remember that C6X and C7 are the ones that do have a lot of dense forests.

Then I get criticized for E Bows on Dolph...

This does not mean Archer is not an option. There is no reason why Matthis can't go Archer on certain chapters (such as Ch. 10 where Archer actually would be useful) then return to Cleric.

...

Nobody seriously considers Swordfighter unless it's a character with good base Str. Same thing for Mage, where usually character bases make up the bulk (which is why characters like Abel & Kain make terrible Mages).

The same thing for Archer. It requires good bases to work, and Matthis is not one of these characters.

To have "good stats" in this game, you need an insane amount of speed almost immediately to pull this off. Otherwise, the only difference is offense. If you're not doubling, the difference better be more than marginal. Myrmidon does not make up for it's god awful offense, nor its lack of good range. The only exception is cavalier, and for the most part everyone in general has trouble surviving more than two attacks. Thus, there is weapon rank. Does attacking with steel witht he possibility of missing, along with being far more likely to be killed really any better?

You don't need good good bases to be a good archer, because it's impossible. You need good bases to be good at anything in this game, on like Minerva's level. So you need better growths to pull off a class well, and cavalier is not that class unless you have great growths already. Matthis's growths with this class sucks, so he has no reason to stick with it. He could go healer, but he isn't being effective later in the game.

Think of it this way. Healer and Archer are theoretically the same on two spectrums. Archers deal piddling damage, healers heal piddling damage. Rank up, archers don't deal piddling damage anymore, healers don't heal piddling hp anymore. Difference is that a bow can do effective damage from rank 1, while healers are always doing the same thing. Saying it saves someone from being useless is the same with archers, since we also have other people healing, and it's stupid to assume the other healers are as incompetent as he is. So archer and healer really serve to make the same ends-excuse to level to get to promotion faster.

However it seems that while healers can get more levels, archers are more effective when promoted earlier. In fact?

15/1 Matthis, Archer-Draco
33 HP, 12 Str, 8 Skill, 12 Speed, 3 Luck, 13 Def, 3 Res

Minerva
24 HP, 9 Str, 6 Skill, 12 Speed, 6 Luck, 12 Def, 3 Res

It USED to be about Axe Rank. Silver Axes do 7 more damage than iron. So Minerva does 4 more damage, which isn't exactly major. On the other hand, Matthis has 9 HP and 1 Def over her. Enemies of the strongest kind have 27 mt. Matthis can take 3 shots even with lances. Minerva cannot boast that. While she has an auto S rank with axes for far greater accuracy, Matthis is also closer to Ridersbane. So in a way, she will need the Hauteclere to compare. As for their growths? Nigh identical, with the exception that Matthis has a holy crap, 40% HP growth advantage. Minerva grows HP 2 HP every 5 levels. Matthis gets 5 HP every 6 levels. He already has a 9 HP lead. He destroys her in her own class.

Sniper? Well, they are nearly the same, except Matthis is working with silver, maybe even Parthia, while Minerva only has killer.

So healing is nice and dandy, but so is packing doubling power with Parthia in hand by chapter 10.

Of course, we can't talk about Matthis without talking about Roshe. We could help build his sword rank at points, so by the other end, we could get...

15/1 Roshe, Archer-Swordmaster
36 HP, 10 Str, 20 Skill, 17 Speed, 5 Luck, 7 Def, 3 Res

10 Str seems like meh. However, he does have some advantages, like he doesn't get doubled by snipers and heroes with their gigantic AS of 15 and 17. Since these two do not decline the effects of sword rank, with silver he's pulling 25 mt, which si 15-16 general damage to them. Lancers might negate the rank, but they also are doubled, of which it's 22 mt to their 8-9 defense. That's 28-26 damage. So unless you're Maric, or have an uber-forged slayer weapon, you aren't pulling this off. Cavs have 35 HP. I'd only have to forge 4 mt on that, 10,000 gold. Ridersbane on these things are 24 mt, but you only have one shot. Minus 8-9 Def, that's 16-15 damage. So you need 19-20 Str to do better than Roshe here, or except the fact that forging a Ridersbane would be far more expensive. Basically forging 4 mt on a silver screws me out of 5 silver swords, while the ridersbane on someone with even 12 Str would need to screw us out of 18 Ridersbanes. Which sounds more forgiveable?

Yeah I know, forging is bad, but here's the thing. We don't assume someone gets a specific forge, but we aren't blasting the entire idea of forging out, are we? It's safe to say those who can doubling are putting forges to far greater effects, and only ones doubling at this point are probably snipers and swordmasters.

Side note: I could also forge mt on a killer edge. With his skill, he'd have 30 crit. I could forge 3 mt onto it, and a crit could kill any of these things. 4,500 gold, but I could also insta-kill on the first shot at greater chances, even on things like Snipers and Heroes, s it's not reserved to just one enemy type like the Ridersbane.

I suppose this will be ignored though due to forging, but it does beg the question who does this benefit other than Roshe? Cause obviously, he's not the only one.

FE3_Player wrote:Nobody seriously considers Swordfighter unless it's a character with good base Str. Same thing for Mage, where usually character bases make up the bulk (which is why characters like Abel & Kain make terrible Mages).

The same thing for Archer. It requires good bases to work, and Matthis is not one of these characters.

Then I think that a small penalty should seriously be considered. These Curate -> Snipers are freaking terrible, I'm sorry. Comparing them to Minerva's level is also dumb: they require levels AND a Master Seal, which many people want, just to be mediocre to bad.

Colonel M wrote:
levels

How many clerics are you assuming are being fielded? Almost everyone is taking a counter when attacking, and those counters hurt, and it requires multiple characters to take down an enemy, for the most part. It's not like we're running out of people to heal.

Also, the only characters that don't "require levels" would be Gotoh and Nagi.

AND a Master Seal

Chainey has already mentioned that he does not consider taking a Master Seal to be a big negative, if a negative at all.

And no, "comparing them to Minerva's" level is not dumb. When I wanted Matthis to rise, I made a comparison to Minerva because I was arguing that Matthis > Minerva, which I still believe and might argue at a later point.

10 HP does not justify a promotion item, especially not when it's on a class that cares less about durability anyway. Pulling out growths doesn't work either because Matthis will, again, only get more HP. Minerva's army can have a 20/1 Merric or a 15/1 Cord or a 15/1 Barst or whatever have you fighting alongside Minerva whereas Matthis's army has just Matthis promoted. And no, I'm not punishing Matthis for taking the seal, I'm saying Minerva not needing the seal is a good thing because it allows another person on the team to get uber faster. This isn't something that can just be ignored. The returns that Minerva gives the army for not consuming a seal outweigh the benefits of Matthis's HP lead, so Minerva>Matthis.

Er, alright. I wasn't trying to argue Matthis > Minerva now. :/

ChaosNinji wrote:

Colonel M wrote:
levels

How many clerics are you assuming are being fielded? Almost everyone is taking a counter when attacking, and those counters hurt, and it requires multiple characters to take down an enemy, for the most part. It's not like we're running out of people to heal.

Also, the only characters that don't "require levels" would be Gotoh and Nagi.

AND a Master Seal

Chainey has already mentioned that he does not consider taking a Master Seal to be a big negative, if a negative at all.

And no, "comparing them to Minerva's" level is not dumb. When I wanted Matthis to rise, I made a comparison to Minerva because I was arguing that Matthis > Minerva, which I still believe and might argue at a later point.

Seems Ninji said what I said in bite size form.

It does make me think that perhaps forging weapons on those who are capable of doubling as far more effective than the opposite.

Example. Chapter 10, chances are your axers and lancers have their rank built up. This is not to assume either of these classes that need a javelin or a hand axe are doubling (save Cord, Draug and perhaps Abel). For those who don't have rank built up, they will need to forge quite a large amount on this 60 base hit. +20 hit is about hte cost of 1 Levin Sword. Similar with the javelin. 8-7 mt.Let's say these theoretical bastards have 12 Str. They'd do about 10-12 damage. Even a Lancer at C or B is only similar to the hand axe with more acc. A swordmaster with a C rank has 1 magic and +1 mt from rank. 8 damage. It's not that much worse, and a Swordmaster is far more likely to double. If it's B rank, 9 damage. Doubling, that's a 2RKO.

Now what this means is that these weapons basically would need to forge accuracy, or else you're forging a super weapon of which you might miss with. It's worse if you aren't doubling, because you'd need to forge 6 mt just to meet the damage Levin swords do. I could instead forge the Levin Sword to add mt, since ever 1 mt is 2 more damage.To match the 20 acc of other forges, I'll add 4 mt to a Levin Sword. 11x2 damage, so even if axers were doubling, Levin could match that with better accuracy at C rank.

It's kind afunny the rule with not forging, because it seems Swordmasters put the forge to best use the soonest. Well, aside from Maric I guess.

ChaosNinji wrote:

Colonel M wrote:
levels

How many clerics are you assuming are being fielded? Almost everyone is taking a counter when attacking, and those counters hurt, and it requires multiple characters to take down an enemy, for the most part. It's not like we're running out of people to heal.

Also, the only characters that don't "require levels" would be Gotoh and Nagi.

AND a Master Seal

Chainey has already mentioned that he does not consider taking a Master Seal to be a big negative, if a negative at all.

And no, "comparing them to Minerva's" level is not dumb. When I wanted Matthis to rise, I made a comparison to Minerva because I was arguing that Matthis > Minerva, which I still believe and might argue at a later point.

Seems Ninji said what I said in bite size form.

It does make me think that perhaps forging weapons on those who are capable of doubling as far more effective than the opposite.

Example. Chapter 10, chances are your axers and lancers have their rank built up. This is not to assume either of these classes that need a javelin or a hand axe are doubling (save Cord, Draug and perhaps Abel). For those who don't have rank built up, they will need to forge quite a large amount on this 60 base hit. +20 hit is about hte cost of 1 Levin Sword. Similar with the javelin. 8-7 mt.Let's say these theoretical bastards have 12 Str. They'd do about 10-12 damage. Even a Lancer at C or B is only similar to the hand axe with more acc. A swordmaster with a C rank has 1 magic and +1 mt from rank. 8 damage. It's not that much worse, and a Swordmaster is far more likely to double. If it's B rank, 9 damage. Doubling, that's a 2RKO.

Now what this means is that these weapons basically would need to forge accuracy, or else you're forging a super weapon of which you might miss with. It's worse if you aren't doubling, because you'd need to forge 6 mt just to meet the damage Levin swords do. I could instead forge the Levin Sword to add mt, since ever 1 mt is 2 more damage.To match the 20 acc of other forges, I'll add 4 mt to a Levin Sword. 11x2 damage, so even if axers were doubling, Levin could match that with better accuracy at C rank.

It's kind afunny the rule with not forging, because it seems Swordmasters put the forge to best use the soonest. Well, aside from Maric I guess.

What I was getting at with the Master Seal was Minerva would still be winning over these guys anyway, when people tried drawing it to being comparable (Minerva technically takes the lesser resources). We also know Naji and Gotoh don't need Levels, hence their position on the tier list as well (it backs it up, anyway).

The problem is that these guys aren't Minerva. These guys are levels worse than Minerva. It doesn't matter who wants the Cleric spots, we're obviously fielding more than one and their jobs are easy as hell to replace (remember those dumb generics that sit on Class A | Class Female?) It would prove that their utility is only seen as a neutral.

But then actually look at these promoted characters. If we're doing comparison to the team, these guys only have a win for a short period of time. These guys barely 3RKO Horseman for example, can't cleanly ORKO a Cavalier unless they hit ridiculous amounts of levels, etc. Guess how much leveling it takes to double Paladins by C20? Using Matthis as an example, fucking 20/15. 20/15. And that's only SOME OF THEM! You can't be serious that that helps solidify their mid tier status at all. Once they're promoted so to speak they only double the Cavaliers and have effective Mt on various Pegasus Knights | DracoKnights that surround the chapters.

It almost makes me feel better that Katua is above these two putzes, because their wins are such a small amount of time it isn't funny.

There is a tier gap between Matthis and Minerva. Do you guys not see this?

ChaosNinji wrote:Er, alright. I wasn't trying to argue Matthis > Minerva now. :/

I was arguing that Matthis > Minerva, which I still believe and might argue at a later point.

Then don't make statements like that.

bblader1 wrote:

ChaosNinji wrote:Er, alright. I wasn't trying to argue Matthis > Minerva now. :/

I was arguing that Matthis > Minerva, which I still believe and might argue at a later point.

Then don't make statements like that.

The key parts of said statement being "a later point" and, especially, "might".

I'm gonna drop Matthis to right above Wrys for now, then we'll work from here.

Oh, and Matthis taking a Master Seal is a negative compared to Minerva because his stats are barely better.

You have Wrys Smiley > Matthis > Wrys right now. You might want to fix that.

Also, Vyland should drop with Matthis if Matthis is in fact dropping. I don't really see them underneath of Dolph, though.


And, for the record...

Colonel M wrote:
But then actually look at these promoted characters. If we're doing comparison to the team, these guys only have a win for a short period of time. These guys barely 3RKO Horseman for example, can't cleanly ORKO a Cavalier unless they hit ridiculous amounts of levels, etc. Guess how much leveling it takes to double Paladins by C20? Using Matthis as an example, fucking 20/15. 20/15. And that's only SOME OF THEM! You can't be serious that that helps solidify their mid tier status at all. Once they're promoted so to speak they only double the Cavaliers and have effective Mt on various Pegasus Knights | DracoKnights that surround the chapters.

Every single thing said in this paragraph that supposedly condemns these guys applies to Minerva.

Oh, except for one thing. It is true that Matthis doesn't double Paladins until he's 20/15... but Minerva doesn't double them until she's 20/16.

ChaosNinji wrote:You have Wrys Smiley > Matthis > Wrys right now. You might want to fix that.

Also, Vyland should drop with Matthis if Matthis is in fact dropping. I don't really see them underneath of Dolph, though.

I could see it as Matthis topping it, then Wrys, followed by Dolph | Palla.

And, for the record...

Colonel M wrote:
But then actually look at these promoted characters. If we're doing comparison to the team, these guys only have a win for a short period of time. These guys barely 3RKO Horseman for example, can't cleanly ORKO a Cavalier unless they hit ridiculous amounts of levels, etc. Guess how much leveling it takes to double Paladins by C20? Using Matthis as an example, fucking 20/15. 20/15. And that's only SOME OF THEM! You can't be serious that that helps solidify their mid tier status at all. Once they're promoted so to speak they only double the Cavaliers and have effective Mt on various Pegasus Knights | DracoKnights that surround the chapters.

Every single thing said in this paragraph that supposedly condemns these guys applies to Minerva.

Oh, except for one thing. It is true that Matthis doesn't double Paladins until he's 20/15... but Minerva doesn't double them until she's 20/16.

[/quote]
Minerva also didn't require an extra 20 levels and a Master Seal to do anything. She's slightly based on utility.

Also, Vyland should drop with Matthis if Matthis is in fact dropping.

Why?

Colonel M wrote:
I could see it as Matthis topping it, then Wrys, followed by Dolph | Palla.

As could I.

I don't see a tier difference between Vyland and Matthis, though.

Colonel M wrote:
Minerva also didn't require an extra 20 levels and a Master Seal to do anything. She's slightly based on utility.

I realize this. I wanted to point out that if these guys are doing so very awful, maybe Minerva is due for a check-up?

Why?

Wasn't Matthis above Vyland in Mid Tier? I seem to remember that, though I might be mistaken.

Matthis has garbage speed. If he's going to be Healer, then he's perfectly fine hanging out with other Healers. And no, Vyland was above Matthis. This also addresses Colonel M's issues with Healer -> Sniper setup.

FE3_Player wrote:Matthis has garbage speed. If he's going to be Healer, then he's perfectly fine hanging out with other Healers.

I don't understand what you're responding to with this.

And no, Vyland was above Matthis.

My mistake.

How is the fact that Minerva has issues doubling lategame paladins a valid reason for her dropping all of a sudden?

Yes, she has major rough points in C20, 24, and Endgame too, I do not debate this [In fact I can vouch for it since Minerva was getting raped by Camus's dudes in C20] However, she is very useful in nearly every other chapter of her existence, the ones in between C20 and C24 included. In particular C15 she has 3 move on desert tiles and can blick mages with longbow. C23? Same story. C21 and C22 she's good for anti-flier. In C17x Longbow is one of the few ways you're getting past the 2-range corridor, in C17 she can instant kill a mage...I could go on really, btu she really doesn't have any major problems outside of the chapters I listed. Maybe C13 too, but pretty much everybody not named Zagaro, Wolf, Daros, Bord, Horace, or [Insert character with good durability here] has a lot of difficulty on that chapter.

btw, Jake gets brownie points for his supports. Minerva should get credit for giving him some loving 5-10 hit.

Then Colonel M's example was for just that one chapter and not the endgame in general?

Those three chapters.

I'm clearly not biased for Minerva if I'm going to point out more of her problem areas.

I wasn't saying that you were.

At least with Colonel's example, it can be shown that Matthis has an easier time comparing to Minerva at least, just with a bit more HP, despite missing the auto S axes. I guess that's my thought on it, but that alone I can say is not getting Matthis above Minerva ever. However, I don't see why he'd drop either. I'm not really sure what to think of Matthis at this point.

So, Minerva for Top Tier anyone?

Grandjackal wrote:
So, Minerva for Top Tier anyone?

I can't even see her above Ceasar.