Zeiss up.

Hugh pretty much instantly loses to Zeiss because of cost. If we really can't find anything else to spend the money it takes to recruit Hugh on we can always buy 2 Angelic Robes and give +14 HP to the team. Zeiss creams him in durability and mobility, has comparable Speed, and can promote and give the team +14 HP for the same cost as it takes to recruit and promote Hugh, though he doesn't have Staff use and has worse damage. Hugh probably needs to go down to at least below Igrene.

Zeiss has to use a promotion item and Garret doesn't, so +7 HP for Garret's team, but Zeiss pretty much trounces Garret statwise even if he's only 10/1 so he more than compensates.

I'll stop there for now because several people above that have sizeable availability leads, Niime has good staff rank, etc. I wouldn't rule out Zeiss being even higher, it's just that the comparisons for characters higher than that aren't entirely obvious.

Basically the question is this: How do we measure Miledy if she didn't have the speed to double consistantly?

I'd say at least above Douglas, because there is tanking involved+flight. Weapon rank might be in Doug's favor, but move+not being doubled further factors in for Zeiss. He's at least above the armors.

Garret and Lillina, well defense vs. offense. I'd say the former.

Niime's a bit of a tough sell due to warp staff (Vykan's gonna kill me...), and that a Robe allows her some amount of nosferatanking. She might not have flight and move, but the fact she can catapult Roy around certainly helps in efficiency itself.

I could see her below Niime. Then again, maybe Niime's a bit low as well? Being your best warper has to say something, and helps bolt through chapters as soon as she gets her hands on it.

Man, the mid tiers are getting crowded...

Zeiss may look good statistically, but he has quite a few noticeable problems.

For example, he has some really sexy base hp/def, but you have to account for factors that really rape his durability: Bows, magic (particularly aircalibur) and getting doubled.

Taking a quick look:

Zeiss lv 7/0 (iron lance): 37 hp, 26 atk, 105 hit, 11 spd, 15 def, 3 res, 31 avo

He only does 85% damage to a chapter 16 mage, and does considerably worse against everything else. For example, he only manages a 3RKO on a fighter, a 4RKO on a paladin and is basically tinking mamkutes. He can switch to a steel lance, but now he has 8 spd, which gets him doubled by nearly the entire map. His offensive woes don’t end there. He consistently pulls hit rates below 80 display, and even only manages 70 display on a mercenary he has WTA on.

Defensively, a steelbow!sniper does 78% damage per hit. An elfire mage does 57%, and aircalibur is a clean 1HKO. Steel axe!fighters manage a 3RKO… hell I can’t even find an example that makes Zeis’ durability look good. If he’s lucky, he’ll face an ironsword!mercenary who does double 3s, but if that enemy upgrades to steel, Zeis is still facing a 4RKO. Avoid isn’t going to save Zeis either; A 100 hit enemy still manages 81 true hit, and the enemies here can easily surpass triple digit hit rates.

All to say, Zeiss is pretty fucking terrible at combat. At least Garret has a monstrous crit rate to help him out, and can be reasonably tanky in maps with terrain that acts in his favor (eg/ mountains).

I noticed this. I have checked the numbers, and he basically levels up every 2 kills, and with escalation, he'll need about 10-12 kills to get to level 12 of which would be optimal. If we don't want to hinge any bets, he'll need about 6.

t makes me think, how likely is it that the Knight Slayer is still around? Cause with it, he is packing 52 mt on cavs at base.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch16x.html

Seems to be able to OHKO cavs.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch17a.html

Generally the same in 17 as well. He has 108 hit with it at base, and the general avoid is 30-26. So, 78-82. It's much safer and easier to utilize him at this time with this considering.

I'm not about to ignore the fact he needs to do this to get to promotion quickly though, nor am I gonna ignore just how badly he needs the shield in Sacae (I'd actually say he needs it worse than Thany, at least Thany could be dodging possibly, nor facing crit rates). It takes effort, but so do others in lower mid. Perhaps he could stand to be below Garret.

The knight slayer sounds like a really valuable resource if it's an auto 1HKO on a problematic enemy type. I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed to be kaput by now. Either that, or it's a huge hindrance to save it for Zeiss this long.

If Zeiss goes to Sacae, he's basically screwed. If the nomads double him, wouldn't they ORKO him? If not, it would be a 2RKO, and facing a 2RKO against the most prevalent enemies in the level is awful when you don't have something great to compensate like dancing or staves.

Again, Garret is free of such problems.

Vykan12 wrote:The knight slayer sounds like a really valuable resource if it's an auto 1HKO on a problematic enemy type. I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed to be kaput by now. Either that, or it's a huge hindrance to save it for Zeiss this long.

If Zeiss goes to Sacae, he's basically screwed. If the nomads double him, wouldn't they ORKO him? If not, it would be a 2RKO, and facing a 2RKO against the most prevalent enemies in the level is awful when you don't have something great to compensate like dancing or staves.

Again, Garret is free of such problems.

I agree that Garret could go above him.

As for the knight slayer? Well you get it in chapter 7, and I'd find you insane to get it immediately with all the hellish chaos going on, your hands are just tied. Chapter 8, 8x, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 12A don't have any. 13 has 2 groups that charge you, and in an efficient run I see no reason the ones tailing you should ever be in the picture. Unless you're trading around constantly, I don't see this getting abused easily. Chapter 14 and 14x have none. Chapter 15 it's reinfocements and the boss. Chapter 16 I recall only has a paladin. It might not even be used up by the time Zeiss arrives.

The only way he puts it to worse use is that he can't OHKO paladins with it, but otherwise it means he's putting it to as good of use as anyone else could (you only need 16 Str to OHKO cavs, for paladins you need 25...ok, maybe not everyone's OHKOing paladins with it anyways). I think the problem is that Zeiss might not get many kills out of it, but a couple kills with it doesn't seem out of the question.

It is a minor point I admit, but it doesn't seem too troublesome.

The problem with Zeiss using the horseslayer isn't so much how well he can use it as robbing other characters of easy kill exp they could use to better themselves statistically.

At this point in the game you'd see other characters getting about single digit EXP from cav kills whereas Zeiss gets like 60-70, so I don't see the issue with him taking it. Besides it's not like it can't be traded.

Vykan12 wrote:The problem with Zeiss using the horseslayer isn't so much how well he can use it as robbing other characters of easy kill exp they could use to better themselves statistically.

Zeiss gets about 56 exp a kill at his level to theirs. If we plan to use him, it basically helps him get to par much quicker. It's a minor point still, but again this is why he's not getting to upper mid. Is it really so big a deal that it lands him in low?

As for Zeiss in Sacae, the damage tripled of short bows, the enemy technically has 28 mt. He'd be taking 10x2 damage to his 45 HP. That's a 3RKO. However, this comes with the problem that that IS enough to make those crits a major problem. Shit luck+no supports=problem in this case, as everything in Sacae has crit.

...Actually, the general speed is 18 right? Promoted at level 12 (10-12 kills), he has 15 AS, so he won't be doubled. He will only take 10 damage, of which is a 5RKO.

Still the crit is still the bigger problem for him in this case.

I'll recheck the exp gain for him, just to see.

13 exp a hit, 57 a kill at base. So generally, I was right.

I'm on 17B right now (I'm checking out Sacae route for my warp vids). Anyway, I noticed that promoted nomads would have 31-33 atk, and that the stage has some ballistae, which have 37 atk at 3-10 range. There's also steel bow archers with as much as 40ish atk (this is all considering effective Mt).

Vykan12 wrote:I'm on 17B right now (I'm checking out Sacae route for my warp vids). Anyway, I noticed that promoted nomads would have 31-33 atk, and that the stage has some ballistae, which have 37 atk at 3-10 range. There's also steel bow archers with as much as 40ish atk (this is all considering effective Mt).

Generally sounds about right. It spells trouble for him too (I don't recall ballistae in 17A, was it just the one by the castle?), but it still won't ORKO him. It'll hurt like hell though. With the delphi shield, they'd only do 6x2 damage, to what would genneraly be 38 HP. Granted, Miredy has all intentive purposes all reason to have the thing, but again we know Zeiss sucks in Sacae.

But yeah, I dont think anyone is denying Zeiss isn't shining in Sacae. If we're going Ilia though? Promoting him at level 10, he'd have 14 speed, enough to double the general 10 AS pegasi. At 12, my idea of optimal for him, he has 15 AS. With his brutal strength and Miledy-esque durability, he's pretty monsterous in Ilia. Not as much as Miledy (she can actually double Falcos), but again, I think we all knew that.

I think this substantiates the idea of separating a tier list based on route. Zeiss clearly does much better on one than the other (enough to make like half a tier's difference, maybe more) and averaging out the performance on the two routes is awkward.

Vykan12 wrote:I think this substantiates the idea of separating a tier list based on route. Zeiss clearly does much better on one than the other (enough to make like half a tier's difference, maybe more) and averaging out the performance on the two routes is awkward.

I can agree there, as long as we don't do something stupid like Echidna/Ilia, Bartre/Ilia, Bartre/Sacae, Ilia/Sacae. I'm fine with an Ilia and Sacae route, but yeah. Zeiss is a beast in Ilia.

I was thinking more like 2 separate lists. Having Zeiss (A), Zeiss (B), Gonzales (A), Gonzales (B) and so on would be rather irritating.

Vykan12 wrote:I was thinking more like 2 separate lists. Having Zeiss (A), Zeiss (B), Gonzales (A), Gonzales (B) and so on would be rather irritating.

Sounds ok to me then. Perhaps we should start another topic to discuss placement on people for these routes?

Like, how exactly are archers to be placed for a Sacae list?

Vykan12 wrote:I was thinking more like 2 separate lists. Having Zeiss (A), Zeiss (B), Gonzales (A), Gonzales (B) and so on would be rather irritating.

This proposal has been rejected every time it's been bought up.

bblader1 wrote:

Vykan12 wrote:I was thinking more like 2 separate lists. Having Zeiss (A), Zeiss (B), Gonzales (A), Gonzales (B) and so on would be rather irritating.

This proposal has been rejected every time it's been bought up.

I have no idea why it is. Measuring both out in the same list doesn't really accurately say much about units. Some units do suffer on one route while they shine on the other.

I don't mind splitting it up if there's really a huge difference in performances for multiple people. Though generally, it seems most people do better than Ilia than in Sacae regardless, except those locked to 2-range...but that's archers who have an effective bonus on pegs.

For Zeiss, above Hugh is fine, but Hugh generally has to drop it seems.