There were a lot of hangnail arguments on the sernes list, and ever since the creation of this site has seemed as dead as a doorknob, so I figured I'd just bring up the arguments that were in motion at the time.
-Tate in upper mid, anyone agree?
-Mage positions, like Ray, Lou, Lillina and Niime. None really got much attention, but it is a curious topic that I wish to know the opinions of others on. Seems that Lou's rather solidified in his current position.
-People were speculating on Zeiss. No one has gone in-depth, but people seem to have opinions on him.
-Gonzales, and if he might drop or not.
Everything else was sort of already brought up in other topics. Instead of basically 4 more topics, I figured I'd just group it all into one. These were basically easily solved problems, save probably the mages, so most of these should be dealt with almost immediately, depending on the thoughts of others.
Just figured we'd get these out of the way.
Personal thoughts on the issues.
-Tate I believe could go into upper mid, though I'm sure Red Fox would be more than happy to elaborate. Basically she's Noah with a less competed for promotion item, and the ability to actually double, along with supports with people who don't suck (Thany, Klein), and flight. Worse WT control, weakness to bows, that's it.
-Realistically, Lou would be a bit stronger than Lillina at join time, and beats her from there. However, it's a close race basically until promotion. She has a couple support options that wouldn't mind her, though I suppose I won't push it. Basically there is a period of time when Lou isn't doubling that Lillina is better by a very minor point of a bit more damage. This is the case, due to leveling speed. However as said, he has better growths in the sense that he can actually double eventually. So yeah, tier difference. How much of one though? Currently, she is below the dark mages. However, let's look at a couple details on them.
-Niime is far, starts out good enough, all she really needs is an angel robe and she's actually pretty damn good. Very small amount of time she has, but she is pretty epic in that time, given she gets a robe, mainly due to Nosferatanking (though I suppose 125 base hit isn't fantastic at this point in time...). 16 speed is nice, but her con makes her lose AS from even a basic tome. However, unless you equip her with something huge, she will only be doubled by heroes. However, you soon get Apocalypse. 43 magic might is epic. Heroes are the most troublesome enemy types you generally wanna chip first. They have 52-56 HP, 6 Res. That is a whopping 37 damage, reducing them to 15-18 HP. That IS enough to avoid a counter with for someone closing in on the kill. Percival at base with a silver lane has 34 mt to their 17 Def, a WTA boost means even a base supportless Percy can fuck that up. Others aren't as strong naturally, but others usually have supports, or are badass Miredy. Then factor in basically perfect staff rank. Niime comes late, but she has the capability to be incredibly helpful during that time.
-Ray? Well, he's got a troublesome existence. He starts ok, but he doesn't really end up any better. I suppose if you trained him to 20 and promoted him at chapter 16, he'd be fine if we went Ilia. He'd have 14 speed to double steel pegs with, can counter javie pegs, all with Nosferatu so he's virtually pretty damn hard to kill. Pegs have 31 HP, 9 Res, Ray has 19 magic and Nosferatu is 10 mt. Pegs have about 14 Str, steel lance do 24 mt, javelins do 20 mt. Ray at 20/1 (should be 20/3 at least by now, but what the hell) has 30 HP, 8 Def. So while steelers do 16 damage, he does 20 damage with Nosferatu. Javelins are basically same deal, except it's a 3RKO. Falcos have 31 mt, 42 HP and 11 Res, 14 AS. Ray won't double, and the bastard does 23 damage. This reduces him to 7 HP. Ray on the counter would do 18 damage. He might not kill falcos, but he can tank them. Well, that is if acc is on his side. 37 base Acc, Nosferatu is 65 hit...Ooh, 102. So he has around 72-62 displayed hit. Well, we can see why he's in lower mid. He'd love a support with Lou, and it's a 20+3. That's 17, 20, 28. Joins in chapter 12, he could easily have a B by chapter 18. Avoid and Hit+10. 82-72 has a margin of error, but it helps. Ray would have 35+10 avoid to their 99 hit, of which would be 55 hit. Damn bad luck, but at least he's hitting now. Lou's short on a stable B, so Ray could fill the slot at least. +1 ATK and def do help with Nosferatu's funciton as well, as it's basically a reduction of 2 damage. I could see him below Niime still, but are both worse than Fa in this sense?
-Zeiss interestingly enough promoted at level 10 has 14 speed, enough to double steel pegs. In fact, if he proc'd a speed (30%), he can avoid doubles in Sacae from teh 18 AS nomads. With their short bows, they'd pack 28 mt to his 17 def and 44-45 HP. If he's not getting doubled, 4-5RKO is pretty impressive for a flyer. In fact, 12/1 Zeiss, ranges given for various procs on his hard mode boosts.
45-46 HP, 22 Str, 15-16 Speed, 17-18 Skill, 15-16 Speed, 9-10 Luck, 18-19 Def, 4 Res
To a 20/3 Miledy, he might actually tie defense, though losing 6-7 HP. Str only by 1, luck might tie. Skill though is a 5-6 loss, and speed is 3-4. Obviously he's not Miledy, but he is comparing to her defensively. From here on, chances are he won't be doubled, though his doubling is dubious. In Ilia, he's doubling anyways, aside from Falcos, and Ilia neither are doubling, though can avoid the doubles. Since he's promoting at a general time that others are, he will probably be 12/10 by 21. His stats.
53-4 HP, 26 Str (maxed), 21-22 Skill, 18-19 Speed, 11-12 Luck, 20-21 Def, 4-5 Res
20/10 Miledy
57-58 HP, 25(maxed) Str, 24-5 Skill, 23-4 Speed, 12-13 Luck, 21-22 Def, 6-7 Res.
23 speed is good, but she's only doubling wyvern lords and sages over him. Granted, that's huge, but that's really it. Zeiss can double paladins, whatever else, and you wouldn't want either up against mages either.
So he sorta needs 5 levels, but his low base level makes those easy to attain. Promotion, he's still a flying tank, though he IS able to double in Ilia. I think 5 levels in comparison is painless to basically the rest of Low's problems, and do they give the reward of basically a second Miredy who still doubles most things (save basically heroes, wyvern lords and sages that neither wanna fight). Horseslayers are D rank for him to use, he starts with 18-19 Str. That's 51-52 mt. 75 hit, 32 base hit is 107 hit. 16x, there are cavs walking around. He can OHKO the 37 HP, 9-10 def easily. Paladins with their 10 Def and 47 HP he leaves them with 15-14 HP, so it's not like you seriously have to chizzle them down. Enemy avoid ranges from 23-38 avoid, so 84-69 displayed. 12 exp a hit, 53 a kill on just the normal level 14 enemies. Cavs appear in chapter 17 of either route, so he's still cool then. 10 kills gets him to 12, so that doesn't seem painful.
Maybe I'm in one of my "I caught something and I'm overhyping" mments, so I'll just ask if you feel this is unworthy of low.
-Dunno about Gonzo. It's all about acc and how much we value it with him.
-Tate in upper mid, anyone agree?
-Mage positions, like Ray, Lou, Lillina and Niime. None really got much attention, but it is a curious topic that I wish to know the opinions of others on. Seems that Lou's rather solidified in his current position.
-People were speculating on Zeiss. No one has gone in-depth, but people seem to have opinions on him.
-Gonzales, and if he might drop or not.
Everything else was sort of already brought up in other topics. Instead of basically 4 more topics, I figured I'd just group it all into one. These were basically easily solved problems, save probably the mages, so most of these should be dealt with almost immediately, depending on the thoughts of others.
Just figured we'd get these out of the way.
Personal thoughts on the issues.
-Tate I believe could go into upper mid, though I'm sure Red Fox would be more than happy to elaborate. Basically she's Noah with a less competed for promotion item, and the ability to actually double, along with supports with people who don't suck (Thany, Klein), and flight. Worse WT control, weakness to bows, that's it.
-Realistically, Lou would be a bit stronger than Lillina at join time, and beats her from there. However, it's a close race basically until promotion. She has a couple support options that wouldn't mind her, though I suppose I won't push it. Basically there is a period of time when Lou isn't doubling that Lillina is better by a very minor point of a bit more damage. This is the case, due to leveling speed. However as said, he has better growths in the sense that he can actually double eventually. So yeah, tier difference. How much of one though? Currently, she is below the dark mages. However, let's look at a couple details on them.
-Niime is far, starts out good enough, all she really needs is an angel robe and she's actually pretty damn good. Very small amount of time she has, but she is pretty epic in that time, given she gets a robe, mainly due to Nosferatanking (though I suppose 125 base hit isn't fantastic at this point in time...). 16 speed is nice, but her con makes her lose AS from even a basic tome. However, unless you equip her with something huge, she will only be doubled by heroes. However, you soon get Apocalypse. 43 magic might is epic. Heroes are the most troublesome enemy types you generally wanna chip first. They have 52-56 HP, 6 Res. That is a whopping 37 damage, reducing them to 15-18 HP. That IS enough to avoid a counter with for someone closing in on the kill. Percival at base with a silver lane has 34 mt to their 17 Def, a WTA boost means even a base supportless Percy can fuck that up. Others aren't as strong naturally, but others usually have supports, or are badass Miredy. Then factor in basically perfect staff rank. Niime comes late, but she has the capability to be incredibly helpful during that time.
-Ray? Well, he's got a troublesome existence. He starts ok, but he doesn't really end up any better. I suppose if you trained him to 20 and promoted him at chapter 16, he'd be fine if we went Ilia. He'd have 14 speed to double steel pegs with, can counter javie pegs, all with Nosferatu so he's virtually pretty damn hard to kill. Pegs have 31 HP, 9 Res, Ray has 19 magic and Nosferatu is 10 mt. Pegs have about 14 Str, steel lance do 24 mt, javelins do 20 mt. Ray at 20/1 (should be 20/3 at least by now, but what the hell) has 30 HP, 8 Def. So while steelers do 16 damage, he does 20 damage with Nosferatu. Javelins are basically same deal, except it's a 3RKO. Falcos have 31 mt, 42 HP and 11 Res, 14 AS. Ray won't double, and the bastard does 23 damage. This reduces him to 7 HP. Ray on the counter would do 18 damage. He might not kill falcos, but he can tank them. Well, that is if acc is on his side. 37 base Acc, Nosferatu is 65 hit...Ooh, 102. So he has around 72-62 displayed hit. Well, we can see why he's in lower mid. He'd love a support with Lou, and it's a 20+3. That's 17, 20, 28. Joins in chapter 12, he could easily have a B by chapter 18. Avoid and Hit+10. 82-72 has a margin of error, but it helps. Ray would have 35+10 avoid to their 99 hit, of which would be 55 hit. Damn bad luck, but at least he's hitting now. Lou's short on a stable B, so Ray could fill the slot at least. +1 ATK and def do help with Nosferatu's funciton as well, as it's basically a reduction of 2 damage. I could see him below Niime still, but are both worse than Fa in this sense?
-Zeiss interestingly enough promoted at level 10 has 14 speed, enough to double steel pegs. In fact, if he proc'd a speed (30%), he can avoid doubles in Sacae from teh 18 AS nomads. With their short bows, they'd pack 28 mt to his 17 def and 44-45 HP. If he's not getting doubled, 4-5RKO is pretty impressive for a flyer. In fact, 12/1 Zeiss, ranges given for various procs on his hard mode boosts.
45-46 HP, 22 Str, 15-16 Speed, 17-18 Skill, 15-16 Speed, 9-10 Luck, 18-19 Def, 4 Res
To a 20/3 Miledy, he might actually tie defense, though losing 6-7 HP. Str only by 1, luck might tie. Skill though is a 5-6 loss, and speed is 3-4. Obviously he's not Miledy, but he is comparing to her defensively. From here on, chances are he won't be doubled, though his doubling is dubious. In Ilia, he's doubling anyways, aside from Falcos, and Ilia neither are doubling, though can avoid the doubles. Since he's promoting at a general time that others are, he will probably be 12/10 by 21. His stats.
53-4 HP, 26 Str (maxed), 21-22 Skill, 18-19 Speed, 11-12 Luck, 20-21 Def, 4-5 Res
20/10 Miledy
57-58 HP, 25(maxed) Str, 24-5 Skill, 23-4 Speed, 12-13 Luck, 21-22 Def, 6-7 Res.
23 speed is good, but she's only doubling wyvern lords and sages over him. Granted, that's huge, but that's really it. Zeiss can double paladins, whatever else, and you wouldn't want either up against mages either.
So he sorta needs 5 levels, but his low base level makes those easy to attain. Promotion, he's still a flying tank, though he IS able to double in Ilia. I think 5 levels in comparison is painless to basically the rest of Low's problems, and do they give the reward of basically a second Miredy who still doubles most things (save basically heroes, wyvern lords and sages that neither wanna fight). Horseslayers are D rank for him to use, he starts with 18-19 Str. That's 51-52 mt. 75 hit, 32 base hit is 107 hit. 16x, there are cavs walking around. He can OHKO the 37 HP, 9-10 def easily. Paladins with their 10 Def and 47 HP he leaves them with 15-14 HP, so it's not like you seriously have to chizzle them down. Enemy avoid ranges from 23-38 avoid, so 84-69 displayed. 12 exp a hit, 53 a kill on just the normal level 14 enemies. Cavs appear in chapter 17 of either route, so he's still cool then. 10 kills gets him to 12, so that doesn't seem painful.
Maybe I'm in one of my "I caught something and I'm overhyping" mments, so I'll just ask if you feel this is unworthy of low.
-Dunno about Gonzo. It's all about acc and how much we value it with him.
