The Contribution of Archers

It is applied thinking lately that the use of archers is to prevent others from taking a counter when they move in for the kill. However, how much of this thinking is actually applied? I figured I would start with a measurement of a man who is forced upon his chapters, so we're using him anyways. Yup, we're startng with Walt.

Let's go through the evening step by step.

Chapter 1-Obviously he's not Marcus, so he falls into that category...or does he? Do remember enemy density is low in this chapter. Marcus can weaken, Walt can finish, just like anyone else. But, what if Marcus is going in deep? What if Marcus already spent his turn, and there's someone else who's not suffering? What if someone not Marcus had to take a counter? Well, Walt can shoot them. He's packing 10 mt, enemies generally have 3 Def, it's a nice 7 damage to their 24-26 HP. He attacks, avoids a counter. Allen attacks with a sword for 12+1 mt, 10 damage, so a total of 17 damage, leaving them with 7-9 HP. Lance and Roy have 10+1 mt with his sword, so all but the strongest succumb. What's the difference? Well, one of them avoided a counter! Doesn't seem big, but do recall one of them might have taken a hit. This is better than 2 taking a hit. So, one takes a hit, we have 2 other people to defend with. Due to low enemy density and Marcus's presence, this is no biggie, and Walt is well protected from mean old enemy phase. Now, how the hell are people like Roy pulling this sort of thing off? Lance and Allen could, but they're horribly inaccurate, and due to WTD Lance would be doing the same damage as Walt anyways. He's no defender, but neither is Roy. So, Walt helps keep your army alive in that sort of way, which leaves your army to be more well positioned, since one of them is free an action and can do what he wants. I can therefore conclude that Walt is at least better than Roy and Boris. Lance is borderline with Walt, because due to basically being stuck to swords, he has to take 2 counters to Walt's 0 counters. Lance will have to heal once every two battles due to enemy hit generlaly hovering in hte 50s displayed, while Walt can supply him that free turn, since him helping to kill these people can allow Roy and Allen better position themselves to defend Lance if need be. Allen is probably the second best guy here. Lance can't double yet, and Allen is packing a significant mt lead. None compare to Marcus however, but at least Walt can hit the scraps unlike Boris, so Walt is at least better than Boris.

Chapter 2- Well, it starts the Phereans with a couple soldiers that are in Walt's reach. They have 0 Def, 1 AS to Walt's 5. Walt is doing 10x2 damage to their 27 HP, which means someone like Roy can finish it without a counter, which means less healing. On this side, Walt can do this and perhaps a chip at a fighter. He'll need to be carted over to the right side, but with Allen Lance and Marcus, only others needing to be lifted are Roy Ellen and Boris, and lol Boris, hop on Walt. He could see a chip at a couple soldiers, perhaps the asshole mercenary as well. Only 4 damage, but it allows Deick to attack his now 21 HP and 6 defense with his 18 mt iron blade, leaving him with 9, of which Allen can smoke with iron thanks to WTA. So Roy getting a kill without danger, offense on non handy fighters, and chip that's workable on the annoying as hell merc. Not much, but it's hard for the phereans to see any action here.

Chapter 3-Soldiers return, except now they have 3 AS with iron. However, the javies he can still double for 10x2 damage, and 10 damage to 32 HP is still significant. Lance could kill that in a round, and it frees up Roy and Allen. The javelin bastards, he helps someone avoid a counter. Doing 6 damage on fighters and archers, of whom have 27 HP. If Roy/Allen/Lance have supports, they have a much easier time taking them out. But, a majority of the front gate is soldiers. Armros and cavs? Well ok, he sucks on them, and can't even hurt armors. So, he does help clear the front door at least. Everything else though is just a tad masturbatory. Still, yer forced. Might as well.

Chapter 4-3 levels by now, he procs an str and a speed. Unfortunately, this is also when Lou shows up. Lou has 9 mt magical, Walt has 11 physical. How does it measure up? Well, cavs have around 8-9 Def, so 3-2 damage. Lou has generally 1 Res to deal with, so 7. Lou is better on cavs. Pirates have generally 25 HP and 3 Def with 1 Res, so they're identical there. Neither wanna see a lot of enemy phase, and a nomad can even ORKO Lou (Walt wishes he had some back up from a defense support right about now). His chip could still help Lot kill with a pole axe just like Lou (37-9+1=30, he'd only be off by 2 at worst), so generally they're identical aside from the fact Lou can occasionally counter 1 person, and that Lou perhaps isn't dependent on a dude using a pole axe.

Chapter 5-Ahh yes, the place where everyone and their mom can ORKO or OHKO Lou. Luckily, only people who can double Walt are mercs and nomads wielding iron (though that last part is a maybe, Walt needs a speed proc to avoid being doubled by steel nomads). Walt sorta wishes he were level 6 right now, but the question is if it's possible. It could be, thanks to chapter 1's nature, but I won't push it. Since Lou no way in hell wants to eat a counter ever, this means Walt can. It's stupid to attempt having him take on a nomad, but he can at least attack a handy fighter on occasion if no one else is around. Otherwise, their damage is a single digit apart. If Walt procs sped, he can do this with the steel nomad too. Walt...Sorta has a win here in that sense. Not much of one though.

So for forced chapters, he has 2 chapters where he's pretty good, 2 chapter meh, 1 chapter ugh. Overall, I'd say that's pretty average. Not really good, but he's not sucking like Boris is. Perhaps Walt>Merlinus, or at least out of kenny g tier?

I personally don't see much value in deploying Merlinus, so I question why he's even at the top of Kenny G. I mean, I guess you have access to a convoy that's always 1 turn behind the rest of your units because he "sucks" at combat. I suppose Merlinus has the utility of instantly transporting newly obtained items across the map, but the maps where that's useful are limited in number and even then aren't totally safe for Merlinus. For example, you could bring him in chapter 16 so that when someone loots the Hero Crest or Knight Crest, you can use it immediately, except Merlinus is kind of OHKO'd by anyone with long range magic and his movement sucks anyway, plus he can't be picked up. It could also help if you need immediate access to newly purchased weapons, but most of the time you should have excess weapons in store prior to purchasing them anyway. The last way in which I can see Merlinus being useful is to help alleviate item slot syndrome, but I'd argue that it's more efficient to deal with a specific enemy using your second best weapon instead of wasting turns retrieving your first best weapon from Merlinus.

We were quite clear in saying Merlinus shouldnt be tiered on the FE7 list.

It should be the same with FE6.

I know. I said that Merlinus should be lower.

Then you and I aren't on the same page at all. You want him lowered, I want him off the list. Merchant utility doesn't mean something in one game and nothing in another.

Or do you mean just not above Walt, if he's even being tiered in the first place?

Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying. There is a distinct difference between FE6 and FE7 Merlinus, though.

This being that FE6 Merlinus is worse. Yeah, he can move earlygame. For four chapters, and he's basically useless in one of them [2] After that, well, you just said it, why would you ever deploy him? Even failures like Walt are a better use of a slot. I can't see his item management very useful at all. People tried to downplay his item-handling in the FE7 list, it's worth even less here since you don't have reavers or even slayers to plug your inventory with so you don't have much of an excuse to screw up on item management in this game. Not only does item management mean much more in FE7, FE7 Merlinus never, ever eats up a slot, even if he can't move to keep up with your army until 15 chapters in, that's worth at least the off chance you DO have item management issues in FE7 since it comes at no cost.

If 7 Merlinus isn't considered tier worthy I see no reason at all why 6 should be.

Perhaps I should adjust my statement.

Being average and forced earlygame>Kenny G tier? I mean, even after there's the wyvern chipping with steel in chapter 7...Then Brave Bow in Sacae...

*clearly trying too hard*

Well, the idea behind not tiering FE7 Merlinus is that he lacks the traits of a playable character, because his deployment is completely free and optional, whereas FE6 Merlinus does have that trait of a playable character. It's a pretty significant difference.

Well, the idea behind not tiering FE7 Merlinus is that he lacks the traits of a playable character, because his deployment is completely free and optional

lords off the list plz

really, of every game not FE4. Maybe RD too

Btw, Walt isn't assured the Brave Bow on the basis that you can't say that Shin isn't in play. After all, if we're going to Sacae with Walt we can most certainly go to Sacae with Shin.

"hay bb, optional"

Why in the world would you NOT deploy Merlinus? There's no cost to bringing him, there's no cost if he dies, there's absolutely no negative utility to be amassed whatsoever from it even if we assumed negative utility exists. Does it really matter that you have the option not to? He may as well be forced since there is not a single negative to using him, so you can assume that he's always bought in to every map.

bblader1 wrote:lords off the list plz

really, of every game not FE4. Maybe RD too

Well, the drawback to deploying a lord is that he can't die. I guess my point is that the decision to deploy FE6 Merlinus is marginal (it's his utility or someone else's) whereas the decision to deploy FE7 Merlinus is "well why the hell not."

While BB is at it, Klein and Igrene want the Brave Bow too.

Well, the drawback to deploying a lord is that he can't die.

You don't have the option NOT to deploy any lord, unless their names are "Eliwood", "Lyn", or "Eirika/Ephraim", and even all of the above are forced on several chapters. Believe me, there's times in FE6 where I wish you did have that option [Even with Alan/Lance BB Roy hates Bolting mages and Nomads, gee thanks a lot shitty speed at 20/0]

bblader1 wrote:
Btw, Walt isn't assured the Brave Bow on the basis that you can't say that Shin isn't in play. After all, if we're going to Sacae with Walt we can most certainly go to Sacae with Shin.

You only need 15 Str to ORKO generally with the brave bow. 20/2 has that. Generally anyone who picks up a brave bow knows how to not suck in Sacae. What can be said for Shin is the same for Klein and Igrene...Only exception is Sue, that failboat.

...The brave bow is hax in Sacae. I just realized that with it you can double counter to avoid a double shot from the enemy if you can kill.

Pity Walt can't get supports. But yeah, we can sort of assume Shin's a badass archer already, sorta common sense. I realize Shin is better.

Fuckin' Dondon, ninja'ing me...

You only need 15 Str to ORKO generally with the brave bow. 20/2 has that.

Lugh can't get to above 16 by C14, but Walt can get to 20/2 by 17?

Also

dondon! says:
20/2 wolt will have about 81 hit on nomads with C roy in range
here i'll walk you through this
true hit is 92.2
Jack AND Heath lose says:
displayed or true...? Im getting 75 displayed but I may be remembering nomad AS wrong
dondon! says:
so chance of both attacks hitting is .922 * .922
= .850
so almost exactly 85 % chance of both attacks hitting
so 15% chance of at least one attack missing
without C roy in range, wolt has 76 hit
.8872 true
.8872 * .8872 = .787
78.7% chance of both, 21.3% chance of at least one attack missing
(also that nomad had 15 AS lol. so wolt actually has 72/77 disp)
(because most nomads have 17 AS)
Jack AND Heath lose says:
15 AS? Is this an early sacae chapter or did this poor guy just get really RNG screwed
dondon! says:
early + rng screwed
the other 3 nomads have 17-18 AS
Jack AND Heath lose says:
The more important thing is that 17~AS will double Brave Bow Walt [he's weighed down by 3]\

self-explanitory

Also, Sue doesn't need a Brave Bow to double nomads. 20/1 doubles up to 17 AS nomads, and Sue uses Silver Bow without AS loss, so I'd say that next to Shin she's actually the "best" of the bow users because she doesn't compete for the Brave Bow and Silver Bows are purchasable starting chapter 17S.

I think anyone who uses up a unit slot is fair game for a tier list. FE7 Merlinus doesn't satisfy that condition so it's hard to really classify him as a character moreso than just a helpful NPC or something.

Yes, and if you want to get nitpicky about it, technically lords do use a unit slot in the deployment menu.

(By the way, Wolt is weighed down by 4 with Brave Bow. Not like that matters, because he's getting doubled anyway).

From what I see, the brave bow and Miurgre really do switch things around for snipers post midgame. Archers suck at first, but both Walt and Dorothy have ways to compare to Igrene and Klein with an early promotion. Gratned they aren't perfect (they might not have the rank for Silver), but comparing they are.

In fact, you get the brave bow in chapter 12. You get Hammerne prior to chapter 16, so you have plenty of time to use it prior to Sacae/Ilia. I suppose that's an advantage the other archers have over Igrene. If Klein's doubling consistently with Silver when Brave weighs him down, he'd probably rather use silver...

...I'll shut up now before I say something stupid.