Cavs (Forde and Kyle) vs. Mages (Lute and Artur)

What I hate the most: when you click on something stupid on the top and then all your info goes "poof". FML. Also, Kyle and Forde will be considered a "pair" like Artur and Lute are. Think of it like Ulki | Janaff in FE10.

I'm not going to type much because I want to hear some general thoughts. In my opinion Kyle and Forde > Lute and Artur can be justified. First off, Cavaliers have better durability, which is important since the enemies aren't a pile of shit like they are in FE7. Offensively they're all more or less tied to be honest: Kyle and Lute are roughly around the same Spd area (Kyle can wield heavier weapons, Lute gets weighed down by Fire by 1) whereas Forde and Artur are similair because they have the better chances to double, but have to resort to slightly weaker weapons. On top of that, their moveent is what really makes the stand out as well. Rescuing and other things Cavs can do also stand out.

Promotion, it's WTC and durability once again vs. a few niche things that such as healing and, for Artur's case, Slayer. I wouldn't put much weight on healing utility as lategame... people are pretty sturdy anyway.

The main thing to note is supports though. Just take a look at these, it's friggin ridiculous.

Code:

Kyle:
 Forde
 30 +3
 Ephraim
 20 +3
 Syrene
 5 +3
 Colm
 5 +2
 Lute
 5 +3
 
Forde:
 Kyle
 30 +3
 Vanessa
 5 +2
 Ephraim
 20 +3
 Franz
 25 +3
 Eirika
 20 +2
 
Lute:
 Artur
 15 +3
 Ross
 5 +2
 Knoll
 5 +2
 Kyle
 5 +3
 Vanessa
 10 +2

Artur:
 Lute
 15 +3
 Tethys
 10 +2
 Cormag
 5 +2
 Neimi
 5 +3
 Joshua
 5 +2

Yeah, another ground-breaking discovery: the Cavs have much more flexible, and faster, support options. Not to mention that they even have a triangle with a LORD (Ephraim) nevertheless.

I can use stats if necessary, but for now I'd like to at least spark discussion on this.

Pretty sure Lute actually beats the cavs in durability once her supports are done (lol @ getting full def AND avoid from A Artur/B Vanessa). Or at least Forde. Kyle is pretty tanky so I'm not sure.

Anyway, I think Kyle > the mages, but Forde < the mages. Forde and Kyle are not similar enough to warrant putting them next to each other, as Forde has pretty much nothing on Kyle (save for like, 1 spd) while Kyle wins basically every other stat. I think the difference between Kyle and Forde is big enough to stick the two mages between them. but I have no numbers, nor do I have the time to get them, so this will have to come later.

smash smash smash... come now, surely you jest.

That part of when I mentioned "Forde is a good support battery" shouldn't be ignored. At all. Again, his support options allow him to be flexible. The only character that is probably disregarding him is Kyle, I guess. Why I mention Kyle? At the most he wants a B with him. But look at Forde's other support options:

- Ephraim (Fire)
- Eirika (Light)
- Franz (Light)
- Vanessa (Anima)

Vanessa is the slowest here, but notice what these affinities have in common: they all offer +Atk and +Crit. The equation? Forde becomes decently at offense. Now you mentioned A Kyle / B Ephraim. I'd say Forde would rush to A Ephraim before A Kyle anyway (the bonuses are clearly better and all Ephraim misses is a little more Avo). Take a look at a 20/1 Forde with B Kyle / A anything here:

Killer Axe - 29 Atk, 58 Crit, 128 Hit, 16 AS, 38 HP, 14 Def, 8 Res, 48 Avo

This is ridiculous, my friend. And in comparison to a Kyle with... say, B Ephraim / A Lute (this is just a random example):

Killer Axe - 31 Atk, 41 Crit, 99 Hit, 15 AS, 41 HP, 18 Def, 9 Res, 64 Avo

I don't think this is proving Forde > Kyle (not my intentions anyway), but it does prove a point that Forde has the slightly better offense (17 Crit, 29Hit, 1 AS) in return for Kyle's wins (2 HP, 4 Def, 1 Res, 16 Avo). But it does show that, though each have their advantages, it's not like Forde is lacking any.

Now let's compare to, say, 20/1 Lute. A Artur / B Vanessa just to make you happy:

Thunder - 31 Atk, 120 Hit, 11 Crit, 15 AS, 28 HP, 12 Def, 19 Res, 71 Avo

I dunno how Lute is beating Kyle in durability. Yes, there's the extra Avo she packs (7 difference, 23 difference for Forde), but also notice something else: she doesn't have any listed Crit. Forde and Kyle have that advantage toward them, at the very least. Now, does she win offense otherwise? Yes, I will admit to that. But by a landslide? I think not.

So here are the questions we have to really ask ourselves: if Kyle is "supposedly" beating Lute, how is Forde losing this, because his durability isn't "as great"? Keep in mind that Lute's offense jumps down to 30 if she elects Kyle > Vanessa (and look at Kyle's support options, aside from Forde and Ephraim Lute is his only standing option). What more is there to justify Forde under Kyle? How his teammates get a result. Look at B Forde / A Seth Eirika @ 20/1:

Killing Edge - 27 Atk, 65 Crit, Who cares about Hit and all the other stuff, 58 Avo, 16 Def, 16 Res

And that's pretty goddamn significant to look at.

That part of when I mentioned "Forde is a good support battery" shouldn't be ignored. At all. Again, his support options allow him to be flexible.

It doesn't really matter as even with a near-optimal support setup for Forde he's losing to Kyle, and more importantly Lute.

Vanessa is the slowest here, but notice what these affinities have in common: they all offer +Atk and +Crit. The equation? Forde becomes decently at offense. Now you mentioned A Kyle / B Ephraim. I'd say Forde would rush to A Ephraim before A Kyle anyway (the bonuses are clearly better and all Ephraim misses is a little more Avo). Take a look at a 20/1 Forde with B Kyle / A anything here:

Killer Axe - 29 Atk, 58 Crit, 128 Hit, 16 AS, 38 HP, 14 Def, 8 Res, 48 Avo

This is ridiculous, my friend. And in comparison to a Kyle with... say, B Ephraim / A Lute (this is just a random example):

Killer Axe - 31 Atk, 41 Crit, 99 Hit, 15 AS, 41 HP, 18 Def, 9 Res, 64 Avo

I don't think this is proving Forde > Kyle (not my intentions anyway), but it does prove a point that Forde has the slightly better offense (17 Crit, 29Hit, 1 AS) in return for Kyle's wins (2 HP, 4 Def, 1 Res, 16 Avo). But it does show that, though each have their advantages, it's not like Forde is lacking any.

I noticed your hit for Kyle was way off so I took it upon myself to redo your numbers to see if anything else was wrong.

20/1 Forde GK, A Franz/B Eph
Killer Axe
30.6 atk, 16.3 AS, 127.7 hit, 62.8 crit - - 49.5 avo, 38.9 hp, 13.8 def, 7.5 res, 23.9 critavo

20/1 Kyle GK, A Lute/B Eph
Killer Axe
31.5 atk, 15.0 AS, 112.3 hit, 41.3 crit - - 64.0 avo, 41.5 hp, 18.8 def, 9.0 res, 29.0 critavo

20/1 Lute MK, A Artur/B Vanessa
Thunder
31.4 atk, 15.6 AS, 130.4 hit, 11.1 crit - - 72.7 avo, 28.6 hp, 12.8 def, 19.6 res, 41.5 critavo

And I may as well add Artur.
20/1 Artur Sage, A Lute/B Joshua
Thunder
26.0 atk, 15.2 AS, 135.0 hit, 17.3 crit - - 56.9 avo, 32.9 hp, 11.7 def, 22.9 res, 31.5 critavo


You should really stop rounding, particularly because you're doing it wrong. Like, rounding down Kyle's 18.8 def to 18, or Forde's 38.9 HP to 38. And then rounding up Forde's 13.8 def to 14 (which is technically correct, but not consistent with your other rounding). Among other errors.

Unless you took the wrong support bonuses or something, but that still doesn't excuse some of the bad rounding (like Forde's HP, since HP isn't affected by anything other than leveling up, so the only way that'd be wrong is if you don't know how to round).


Anyway I'm not going to comment on Kyle vs Forde, as Lute vs Forde would be a better indicator of whether Forde should rise rather than "Forde is comparable to Kyle but still worse!", which doesn't tell us how MUCH worse he is and whether the gap is large enough to fit Lute and Artur in it.

I dunno how Lute is beating Kyle in durability.

I never said Lute > Kyle, so I don't see your point.

I DO see Lute beating Forde in durability though. And offense for that matter (lute wins when she doubles, Forde wins when she doesn't. Except I'm pretty sure she doubles more often than not). And 1-2 range.

It's also worth noting that on Eir route there are only 2 knight crests before ch 16 (Eph route has 3). This can make critical promotion issues if we're using all three cavs with Gilliam considered (who's criminally underrated; wtf is he doing in low?). Meanwhile there are few, if any, issues with guiding rings, as you have 3 by the end of chapter 14 regardless of route, and a 4th one you can steal in ch 15.

Artur vs Forde is more debatable.


Of course 20/1 isn't the only point of the game. Admittedly I'm too tired to do anymore comparisons. But this is good enough for now.

So here are the questions we have to really ask ourselves: if Kyle is "supposedly" beating Lute, how is Forde losing this, because his durability isn't "as great"?

wtf are you talking about? How Lute stacks against Kyle has nothing to do with how she stacks against Forde.

What I'm seeing is taht Lute loses to Kyle, but she beats Forde (yes, ofc Lute beats Forde in offense and defense and staves and 1-2 range; SURELY FORDE IS BEATING LUTE).

(and look at Kyle's support options, aside from Forde and Ephraim Lute is his only standing option).

Colm.

It is a fairly slow support though. But no slower than Forde x Vanessa, so w/e.

What more is there to justify Forde under Kyle? How his teammates get a result. Look at B Forde / A Seth Eirika @ 20/1:

Killing Edge - 27 Atk, 65 Crit, Who cares about Hit and all the other stuff, 58 Avo, 16 Def, 16 Res

And that's pretty goddamn significant to look at.

Are you implying that Forde's ~16 AS doubles everything? Sure, it'll double most things, but not everything. Eirika will double everything, aside from a few SMs and a few Gwyllgis.

BTW, I'm too lazy to redo Eirika's numbers, but given how your other stats were off, I suggest you should redo hers.


Anyway, I don't see why you brought up eirika in the first place. Are you trying to say that Forde is comparable to Eirika, or are you saying that Eirika enjoys the Forde support?

Argue Forde>Mages, not "Forde is so close to Kyle they should be right next to each other", a notion I disagree with anyway because Kyle is basically Gilliam on a horse that can double whereas Forde just has an irrelevant AS win. I mean, if Forde is so close to Kyle, he has no excuse to be worse than the mages, so there shouldn't be a problem, mirite?

I'm saying Eirika enjoys the Forde support. By the other "I don't give a damn about the rest of the stats" it's about the others.

Also, to be clear: 20/1 GK Forde gets 14 Def on average (12. then +2 from the A Franz (+1 Def) and then +1 from Kyle. 12 + 1 + 1 = 14. My numbers weren't fudged at all there so I dunno where the hell you were going.

Anyway, Artur vs. Forde:

9 Forde - 26.55 HP | 8.2 Str | 9.5 Skl | 9.35 Spe | 8.05 Luck | 8.6 Def | 2.75 Res | 28 Avo (C Kyle)

8 Artur - 22.3 HP | 9 Mag | 9 Skl | 10.4 Spe | 3.5 Luck | 2.9 Def | 9.3 Res | 28 Avo (C Lute)

With C Kyle (Forde) and C Lute (Artur) the only difference here is probably Artur getting +1 Def and +5 Avo, though Forde has +2 Avo anyway. Lighting gives Artur 13 Atk, roughly the same Atk as Forde w/Javelin. There is the Def / Res gap to take into account so Artur would win offense slightly unless Forde pulls out a Steel Lance. Defensively, it's easy to say that Forde wins. 4 HP, 5 Def vs. 7 Res.

Later on:

15 Forde (B Kyle, B Franz) - 31.65 HP | 13.6 Str | 12.5 Skl | 12.05 Spe | 10.15 Luck | 11.8 Def | 6.25 Res | 39 Avo

15 Artur (B Lute, ...Uh... B Joshua?) - 26.15 HP | 14.5 Str | 12.5 Skl | 13.2 Spe | 5.25 Luck | 6.95 Def | 16.15 Res | 46 Avo

Again, the same thing seems to apply. Lighting has only 4 Mt vs. Iron Lance's 7. So Artur probably wins the offense vs. Def though... still goes to Forde with the 5 HP, 4 Def vs whatever Res and there is 7 Avo.

20/1 Forde (A Franz, B Kyle) - 38.9 HP | 18.6 Str | 16 Skl | 16.3 Spe | 11.9 Luck | 14.8 Def | 8.5 Res | 48 Avo

20/1 Artur (A Lute, B Joshua) - 31.9 HP | 19 Str | 16 Skl | 15.2 Spe | 6.5 Luck | 11.7 Def | 21.9 Res | 56 Avo

The durability gap closes down a lot here, but Forde's offense takes a jump with Axes while Artur can use Shine without AS loss. Now it's Forde's 29 Atk and high Crit ratios vs. Artur's 25 Atk and Slayer. I guess Healing utility too.

Whatever, I'm not going to spend all day with this anyway.

I'm saying Eirika enjoys the Forde support. By the other "I don't give a damn about the rest of the stats" it's about the others.

What? By the time her Forde support finishes, she promotes and gets access to her ridiculous personal weapon. She's not that worried about offense. If anything, she's more worried about her durability, so she'd rather take Innes as her B (who is also +3 support instead of Forde's +2, at the expense of starting only slightly later). Granted, both Seth and Innes have to be played for her to skip the Forde support, but fukkinSeth, and Innes is pretty solid on her route, so she's not desperate for the Forde support. I suppose it's better than nothing.

So Sure, Forde has lots of good supports. The problem is many of his partners can make do without him. As the aforementioned Eirika, Seth/Innes. Vanessa has Moulder/Lute. Kyle has Eph/Lute and Colm to an extent. Eph has Kyle/Duessel. Even Franz is debatable as he has Seth/Gilliam/Natasha (although they're only +2 supports, they start earlier). Granted, being 3rd on a unit's list doesn't mean Forde will never get that support. It means that those units are not going to be scrambling for Forde support.

Artur on the other hand, is Lute's best option. When Neimi is played (another unit who is underrated; wtf @ her being in the bottom 10) he's her second best option. He's arguably Joshua's second best option on Eir route (cause of Gerik, +3 support vs +2 support with 5 chapters more), and is easily second best on Eph route. He does have Tethys and Cormag, though they start late and are only +2s, but still worth mentioning.

Lute's support list isn't bad at all either, being the best or second best options for Artur/Kyle/Vanessa. And I guess whenever Ross is used he'll want her.

Being 3rd choice on many good units' lists vs being 1st or 2nd on slightly fewer units' lists.

That doesn't look like anything significant for Forde to me.

Also, to be clear: 20/1 GK Forde gets 14 Def on average (12.Cool then +2 from the A Franz (+1 Def) and then +1 from Kyle. 12 + 1 + 1 = 14. My numbers weren't fudged at all there so I dunno where the hell you were going.

Ah. You used A Franz/B Kyle. I wasn't sure what supports you were using (you said B Kyle/A anything), so I just switched it to A Franz/B Eph (where both Kyle and Forde had B Eph's), which would explain the 1 less def.

You should still probably stop rounding everything down. In the cases where units had 0.8 (or 0.9 for Forde's HP), you're underestimating by almost an entire point.

With C Kyle (Forde) and C Lute (Artur) the only difference here is probably Artur getting +1 Def and +5 Avo, though Forde has +2 Avo anyway. Lighting gives Artur 13 Atk, roughly the same Atk as Forde w/Javelin. There is the Def / Res gap to take into account so Artur would win offense slightly unless Forde pulls out a Steel Lance. Defensively, it's easy to say that Forde wins. 4 HP, 5 Def vs. 7 Res.

You failed to take into account Artur's 1-2 range granting him far fewer player phase counters. No, it won't close the durability gap, but it does mitigate it.

Javelin isn't going to solve anything, really. Javelin makes Forde lose 2 AS (making Artur win AS by 3) and his hit takes a nosedive. That's on TOP of losing att due to the def/res gap.

I say it's too close here to really care. Both Artur and Forde have their own advantages which are all situationally useful.

Again, the same thing seems to apply. Lighting has only 4 Mt vs. Iron Lance's 7. So Artur probably wins the offense vs. Def though... still goes to Forde with the 5 HP, 4 Def vs whatever Res and there is 7 Avo.

I personally disagree with Artur having B Joshua by now (it's only +2 support), but... w/e.

In any case, the gaps between the two are pretty similar to the gaps in your first comparison.

The durability gap closes down a lot here, but Forde's offense takes a jump with Axes while Artur can use Shine without AS loss. Now it's Forde's 29 Atk and high Crit ratios vs. Artur's 25 Atk and Slayer. I guess Healing utility too.

Indeed, this is the section where I believe Artur has a notable lead on Forde.

Mainly because the durability lead drastically closed, to the point where it could be argued that Artur is the one winning durability. 13-14 res/8 avo vs 7 HP/3 def. I find that, point for point, avo is about equal to HP (except of course when the avoid isn't reliable, but Artur's avo is 56 which is pretty good against things not SMs and such). So those two about cancel. Now it's 13-14 res vs 3 def. Theoretically there would have to be 4-5 times as many physical enemies as magic users for the two to cancel out (since 3 x 4 or 5 = 12 or 15. In other words, 4-5 physical enemies would nullify the same amount of damage as 1 magical enemy).

Using stats here, these are the physical:magical enemies ratios I'm getting.

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/389780/1/

ch 15
59:13.

ch 16
34:13

ch 17
46:16

ch 18
14:5
note that any eggs that hatch turn into gorgons...

ch 19
81:10

ch 20
128:27

final
30:13

Ch 19 and final seem to be the only outliers. Otherwise the physical:magical ratio of enemies hovers around 3-5.

So it seems fair to consider their raw durability to be roughly even.

But Artur has constant 1-2 range, while Forde switching to a 1-2 range weapon will take a big nosedive in his offense. Granted, at 1-range Forde is probably winning. but Artur will be winning at 2-range + easily wins vs monsters with Slayer (or if he goes Sage, he instead uses thunder instead of shine which has 2 more mt), so that's none too significant.

And there's also Artur's staves to consider.

K, short responses:

What? By the time her Forde support finishes, she promotes and gets access to her ridiculous personal weapon. She's not that worried about offense. If anything, she's more worried about her durability, so she'd rather take Innes as her B (who is also +3 support instead of Forde's +2, at the expense of starting only slightly later). Granted, both Seth and Innes have to be played for her to skip the Forde support, but fukkinSeth, and Innes is pretty solid on her route, so she's not desperate for the Forde support. I suppose it's better than nothing.

The other issue is Innes isn't before Forde. Forde has C8, C9, and part of C10 to start building the support. It's not the wtfawesome support, but I don't think she minds getting an offensive boost anyway since +Crit makes her a pseudo-Swordmaster.

So Sure, Forde has lots of good supports. The problem is many of his partners can make do without him. As the aforementioned Eirika, Seth/Innes. Vanessa has Moulder/Lute. Kyle has Eph/Lute and Colm to an extent. Eph has Kyle/Duessel. Even Franz is debatable as he has Seth/Gilliam/Natasha (although they're only +2 supports, they start earlier). Granted, being 3rd on a unit's list doesn't mean Forde will never get that support. It means that those units are not going to be scrambling for Forde support.

You are not fucking serious with this, are you? GILLIAM!?!

Forde is still reasonable for all of these units, I don't see what is being missed. Only thing Ephraim really gets from Kyle is +1 Def and full Avo vs. more offense. I wouldn't say he's a third / second / whatever string on them anyway. Sure not everyone is scrambling for this guy's support list, but he makes an awesome plug on a team. Whereas Artur only has 1, maybe 2 realistic options (Cormag comes a bit later but he works, same with Tethys).

That doesn't look like anything significant for Forde to me.

The problem is we're going back to the Lute vs. Kyle vs. Forde vs. Artur situation. I narrowed it down to Artur vs. Forde, so if Forde isn't seeing anything significant, I dunno what Artur is.

You should still probably stop rounding everything down. In the cases where units had 0.8 (or 0.9 for Forde's HP), you're underestimating by almost an entire point.

Sorry bub, I round down period. It's still banking on a 20% chance of not being there, or even 10% chance of not happening. It's technically only a decimal of a stat. I'm not suddenly going to round .55 or higher to 1s, that just seems... dumb.

You failed to take into account Artur's 1-2 range granting him far fewer player phase counters. No, it won't close the durability gap, but it does mitigate it.

Javelin isn't going to solve anything, really. Javelin makes Forde lose 2 AS (making Artur win AS by 3) and his hit takes a nosedive. That's on TOP of losing att due to the def/res gap.

87 Hit at Level 9. Most characters shouldn't exceed over 10 Avoid often in the first place, but he was losing the Def/Res gap at the start of the battle. Then the hit ratios jump up +15 against the dodgier enemies (Myrmidions and Mercenaries). The AS is, perhaps, the only thing that is noteworthy. Even then, it can still be used to prevent Artur's mitigated durability issue.

I say it's too close here to really care. Both Artur and Forde have their own advantages which are all situationally useful.

Did we suddenly forget Forde has a pony? Forde not only has higher mov than Artur in the first place, he can also Rescue | Drop off units. Forde has more utility than Artur does here.

I personally disagree with Artur having B Joshua by now (it's only +2 support), but... w/e.

In any case, the gaps between the two are pretty similar to the gaps in your first comparison.

Still would have the Cav advantages to play on. Also the so-called "shaky hit" goes down with the supports being built-up. Also I didn't care about the B Joshua ordeal, I was just being kind and giving it to him.

Indeed, this is the section where I believe Artur has a notable lead on Forde.

Mainly because the durability lead drastically closed, to the point where it could be argued that Artur is the one winning durability. 13-14 res/8 avo vs 7 HP/3 def. I find that, point for point, avo is about equal to HP (except of course when the avoid isn't reliable, but Artur's avo is 56 which is pretty good against things not SMs and such). So those two about cancel.

Not quite. You've also forgotten to take into account Forde's WTC, which boost the Def gap and helps close, in fact, beat the Avoid gap here. The only thing Artur is winning here, durability-wise, would be RES in this case.

But Artur has constant 1-2 range, while Forde switching to a 1-2 range weapon will take a big nosedive in his offense.

Quite a false statement here. Well, partially. The one thing that dives is his Crit ratios, but he still has the Hand Axe which is -1 Mt in comparison to Shine, but aside from that he only takes a minor penalty. In return, he still has his durability top-notched.

Granted, at 1-range Forde is probably winning. but Artur will be winning at 2-range + easily wins vs monsters with Slayer (or if he goes Sage, he instead uses thunder instead of shine which has 2 more mt), so that's none too significant.

Bishop anyway. Going Sage is rather... dumb. I'll slightly concede on the monsters, though in the later chapters Forde has the S rank weapons to make up for it (and he has 3 to choose from nevertheless). Forde w/Garm @ 20/1 and using B Kyle / A Franz, for example, can do 50 damage easily (40 Mt + 20 Atk - 35 Def), which is a little over a third of the Demon King's HP (120). Artur has to pierce through wtf 41 Res. Then there's Lyon and a few other enemies, but I won't go into major details with them.

And there's also Artur's staves to consider.

There's also Forde's pony utility to consider throughout the entire game. Also, the Mov advantage.

Colonel M wrote:Sorry bub, I round down period. It's still banking on a 20% chance of not being there, or even 10% chance of not happening. It's technically only a decimal of a stat. I'm not suddenly going to round .55 or higher to 1s, that just seems... dumb.

So you choose to ignore the vastly more likely scenario of the stat being there? That's an even worse representation.

Another thing to chew on is that Forde is probably more dependent on the higher mt of axes [for ATK] and full WT control [for DEF] of GK, and thus being stuck to 6 mov and possible effective damage [I dunno, do enemies even exploit this?] whereas Kyle just doesn't give a damn and can run around the map as an 8 mov paladin and never ever die and will ORKO anything he doubles. This equates to Lute having a mobility lead on Forde, but not Kyle.

All that is more effective on a Great Knight than on a Paladin is Armorslayer/Heavy Spear/Hammer, which almost nothing has, and if they do they can be attacked with Hand Axe/Javelin, or just with WTA.

dondon151 wrote:

Colonel M wrote:Sorry bub, I round down period. It's still banking on a 20% chance of not being there, or even 10% chance of not happening. It's technically only a decimal of a stat. I'm not suddenly going to round .55 or higher to 1s, that just seems... dumb.

So you choose to ignore the vastly more likely scenario of the stat being there? That's an even worse representation.

The "likely scenario" on a fixed growths run would be that the stat doesn't become +1 until it has actually "become" 1.00. How is that a worse representation?

Another thing to chew on is that Forde is probably more dependent on the higher mt of axes [for ATK] and full WT control [for DEF] of GK, and thus being stuck to 6 mov and possible effective damage [I dunno, do enemies even exploit this?] whereas Kyle just doesn't give a damn and can run around the map as an 8 mov paladin and never ever die and will ORKO anything he doubles. This equates to Lute having a mobility lead on Forde, but not Kyle.

Running around with 8 Mov maybe, but GK also tosses +2 Speed, and last time I checked 14 AS was already borderline doubling enemies.

Colonel M wrote:The "likely scenario" on a fixed growths run would be that the stat doesn't become +1 until it has actually "become" 1.00. How is that a worse representation?

Because this is not a fixed growths system. Go ahead and argue "imaginary FE8" if you want.

But I'll say simply that characters average anywhere from 2-3 stats per level up, and under the assumption of "stats always round down," the first level results in no stats for anyone and the second level usually results in no stats except for HP. Is this accurate?

Fixed growths systems compensate for this by giving characters initial growth points. Your assumption doesn't give characters initial growth points.

dondon151 wrote:

Colonel M wrote:The "likely scenario" on a fixed growths run would be that the stat doesn't become +1 until it has actually "become" 1.00. How is that a worse representation?

Because this is not a fixed growths system. Go ahead and argue "imaginary FE8" if you want.

But I'll say simply that characters average anywhere from 2-3 stats per level up, and under the assumption of "stats always round down," the first level results in no stats for anyone and the second level usually results in no stats except for HP. Is this accurate?

Fixed growths systems compensate for this by giving characters initial growth points. Your assumption doesn't give characters initial growth points.

Just want to say: Kurth/Volug in fe10 have a 5% chance of not getting hp on their first level. How is that more accurate than letting them have it?

And I did this on serenes:

The idea here is that Mia at level 7 has a 76% chance of having at least 4 AS with an Armorslayer.

Ike at level 9 has 9.00 str on average, so that makes people who love rounding down happy since it's a nice whole number. He's only got a 64% chance of having at least 9 str at level 9.

So Mia has 3 AS with the armorslayer if you round down like you are doing. Ike gets his 9 str. But Mia has a higher chance of having 4 AS with the armorslayer than Ike does of having 9 str at these listed levels.

Now, that's a different game, of course, but the laws of probability don't change from game to game.


(edit: and like dondon said about fixed mode, they give starting growth points. Mia is guaranteed to have 4 AS at level 7 with the armorslayer on fixed mode. It doesn't matter what weapon you give her or what enemy you have her attack while leveling up.)

Running around with 8 Mov maybe, but GK also tosses +2 Speed, and last time I checked 14 AS was already borderline doubling enemies.

Paladin gives 1, so this is a whopping difference of one point. Does this even matter?

bblader1 wrote:

Running around with 8 Mov maybe, but GK also tosses +2 Speed, and last time I checked 14 AS was already borderline doubling enemies.

Paladin gives 1, so this is a whopping difference of one point. Does this even matter?

Paladin - +2 HP | +1 Str | +1 Skl | +1 Spd | +2 Def | +1 Res | +2 Con

Great Knight - +3 HP | +2 Str | +1 Skl | +2 Spd | +2 Def | +1 Res | +4 Con

Actually Great Knight simply has the better promotional bonuses, aside from Mov (Paladin gets +1, GK gets -1 but those are pretty obvious). It's a minor nitpick, but there's little reason to not go Great Knight either with Kyle or Forde (Axes, 13 Con for Forde and 14 for Kyle).

Because this is not a fixed growths system. Go ahead and argue "imaginary FE8" if you want.

But I'll say simply that characters average anywhere from 2-3 stats per level up, and under the assumption of "stats always round down," the first level results in no stats for anyone and the second level usually results in no stats except for HP. Is this accurate?

Fixed growths systems compensate for this by giving characters initial growth points. Your assumption doesn't give characters initial growth points.

Then just round the numbers up if it makes you feel happy. Yeesh...

20/1 Forde (A Franz, B Kyle) - 39 HP | 19 Str | 16 Skl | 16 Spe | 12 Luck | 15 Def | 8.5 Res | 49 Avo

20/1 Artur (A Lute, B Joshua) - 32 HP | 19 Str | 16 Skl | 15 Spe | 6.5 Luck | 12 Def | 22 Res | 56 Avo

I kept the .5s, but feel free to round them up. Didn't make much of a difference anyhow since Forde still wins HP by 7 and Def by 3. I should've patched the Avoid to compensate for Forde's WTC but meh, just add 15 to it and you get the point.

Also BBlade asked when that "arbitrary" Spd point mattered, so I'll respond with some C17 stats:

Wyvern Rider-

2-36/17/10/11/5/13/2(LvL 16, Slim Lance)

Druid -

8-30/20/12/11/4/5/15(Turn 5 Near Lyon, Flux)

Warrior -

2-49/19/11/11/3/9/3(Turn 14 Upper Eastern Fort, Silver Axe)
3-51/20/12/11/4/9/4(Turn 15 Lower Eastern Fort, Silver Axe)
9-48/20/11/11/3/9/5(Turn 18 Lower Eastern Fort, Silver Axe)

Great Knight -

1-37/15/9/11/5/16/8(Turn 9 Lower Western Fort, Silver Axe)

C18:

Gorgons -

1-32/23/10/11/9/9/17(LvL 6, Demon Surge, Shadowshot)
2-32/23/13/11/8/7/18(LvL 5, Demon Surge, Stone)

Gargoyles -

1-36/15/11/14/3/11/2(LvL 17, Axereaver)

I'm guessing many, if not all Gorgons that hatch here have 11 Spd too.

C19:

There's some to list here. It prevents him from being doubled by most Swordmasters barring 1 of them (many have 17-18 AS). It can miss out on a GK with 14 AS and of course guarantees to double all Warriors.

I won't drag this on for long since it's minor nitpicking, and by C19 Paladin!Kyle should have 15 AS at the bar minimum anyway. So what does 16 Spd from 20/1 Forde do? In C16 it doubles everything barring the Mercenaries, Thieves, Heroes, the Swordmaster, and Orson. In C17 it doules everything barring Heroes again, Valkyries, the Wyvern Lord (though it's close since he has 13 AS but 20/3 Forde can double this beast, 20/2 if we round up), see the Wyvern Lord for the Berserker, and the Swordmaster again. C18 it doubles everything barring maybe some Gorgons (again, it highly depends on what the hatched Gorgons get) and some Gargoyle (if he wields a Javelin though, game over). C19 he should be about 20/5 at this point which throws his Speed up to 18. This doubles everything barring the Myrmidions, Thieves, the ass amount of Swordmasters (cmon guys it takes about 21-22 AS to double these buffoons), the vast majority of Heroes (barring the two with the Steel Blades), two Mage Knights, Rangers... yeah, there IS a lot here but notice most unit's AS are actually pretty good.

So even though it's considered an "arbitrary" point by some, it does indeed open up thresholds to double more enemies which -1 Spd couldn't.

It's a minor nitpick, but there's little reason to not go Great Knight either with Kyle or Forde (Axes, 13 Con for Forde and 14 for Kyle).

More like there's little reason TO go GK, since 2 mov>>>>>>marginal stat leads [1 str, axes, 1 AS, 2 con. Yayz?]. Btw, Kyle has 10 con, Forde has 9, so Kyle can afford to use heavier weapons more often.

bblader1 wrote:

It's a minor nitpick, but there's little reason to not go Great Knight either with Kyle or Forde (Axes, 13 Con for Forde and 14 for Kyle).

More like there's little reason TO go GK, since 2 mov>>>>>>marginal stat leads [1 str, axes, 1 AS, 2 con. Yayz?]. Btw, Kyle has 10 con, Forde has 9, so Kyle can afford to use heavier weapons more often.

Vs 2 move. Great Knight at least makes it easier to withold on supports to an extent (Forde and Franz might be a slightly awkward one). It's such a minor nitpick on which side to go, but Great Knight allows the flexibility of more stat bonuses for 2 Mov.