Yet another curious aspect.

This one I'm positive won't explode into something like my last topic. If it does, I think it will prove that perhaps I lash out too easily, which I could probably learn something form this one way or the other.

It involves the Black Knight in chapter 3-6. He's got 38 STR. Bronze sword gives him 41 mt. This basically means he will destroy all cats. However...

Tiger lvl 14
HP 48, Atk 32, AS 16, Hit 132, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 4, Crit 9, Ddg 6
Tiger lvl 15
HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6
Tiger lvl 16
HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7
Tiger lvl 17
HP 51-52, Atk 41, AS 18, Hit 141, Avo 43, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

I notice he reduces these punks to single digits (most of them anyways). So while he kills quite fast due to destroying cats and can move out to do his job, he can also pull the jeigen utility, letting your units lynch for some yummy laguz exp. Technically same speed, but the team gets presents this time. Of course there's also Eclipse, but this is still easier while giving our team exp it otherwise wouldn't get. Bronze also means no crit, which makes it far safer than using a slim (proving once again how useless that piece of shit weapon exactly is).

So, perhaps we don't need that Sothe Savior strategy to make this chapter a joke, and at the same time actually benefit our team for later. This also allows us to send Savior to the mercs, who most certainly need it a lot more than the DB do. Of course we can still do it if we just absolutely don't care to actually train DB units, but this seems quite a bit better to me.

Forgive me if this was already known, but I wasn't hear when the meat of the arguments that form the current list were made.

Thoughts? If in fact this wasn't already discussed before...

I've never noticed this before, but I wouldn't put much weight on it for two reasons:
1. 64% Eclipse (he doubles everything). He kills all the Cats and ~2/3 of the Tigers. Not much left.
2. By the time he comes there should already be less than half the enemies remaining as it is.

Although this is an interesting discovery. It's actually possible for the Black Knight to not kill an enemy.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:I've never noticed this before, but I wouldn't put much weight on it for two reasons:
1. 64% Eclipse (he doubles everything). He kills all the Cats and ~2/3 of the Tigers. Not much left.
2. By the time he comes there should already be less than half the enemies remaining as it is.

Although this is an interesting discovery. It's actually possible for the Black Knight to not kill an enemy.

1. 64%? Sure it's not just 60? 40+2 medium would be 60. Either way, still seems rather dangerous.

2. Perhaps, but this is still quite a nince gambit to just wait for him, and then attempt to reduce the population to a joke health for the few members you'd actually be training. After all, why strain the team? It's an alternative strategy, you could say. It's also a way to sort of bypass 3-6 without needing Sothe and Savior, since A. You need a team in the future parts, and B. Let's Savior go to the mercs, which overall makes the game faster.

He might have a heavy kill chance still due to Eclipse, but weakening something that insane to chewable health is STILL remarkable, and incredibly helpful to the team at hand.

Just makes me wish you could take Eclipse off him, or just give him Mercy...

Let the Black Knight rescue someone to cut down on Eclipse, if it is even possible. I suppose he'd need a stronger weapon (else he'd 3 HKO, lol) and introduce crit, but the effects of rescuing should deter procage.

Weapons of Mass Construct wrote:Let the Black Knight rescue someone to cut down on Eclipse, if it is even possible. I suppose he'd need a stronger weapon (else he'd 3 HKO, lol) and introduce crit, but the effects of rescuing should deter procage.

Better yet, just forge the bronze, 46 might not 2RKO the strongest tigers, but at least cats are introduced into the equation now.

Good thinking. Finally, Meg has yet another use.

Bronze isn't forgeable, but you can probably live with ~3 crit.

You can't forge Bronze.

Edit: Slowpoke.

I keep forgetting you can't forge a bronze...

Fine, just forge him the strongest weapon he can get his hands on, and have him rescue. If he's gonan crit or Eclipse, it's going to die no matter what weapon he carries. If we minimize the risk, we might as well maximize the pay-out while we're at it, since clearly even bronze won't help with a rescue.

Wait, doesn't rescuing also cut skill in half?

EDIT: BWAHAHAHAHAHAA!!

I've come upon another realization! Same thing can be done for 1-E!

BK with someone rescued is 15 speed, which doesn't double a damn thing in 1-E. 41 might with a bronze sword, only OHKOs mages and weaker archers.

Meaning 1-E is a joke, Nailah rush or no as well. This also helps the team get more EXP than it would have gotten normally.

Destruction, you magnificent bastard!

I'm pretty sure it does, which is part of the negation of eclipse/crit calculated.

Just so it's not missed...

I've come upon another realization! Same thing can be done for 1-E!

BK with someone rescued is 15 speed, which doesn't double a damn thing in 1-E. 41 might with a bronze sword, only OHKOs mages and weaker archers.

Meaning 1-E is a joke, Nailah rush or no as well. This also helps the team get more EXP than it would have gotten normally.

Destruction, you magnificent bastard!

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Yeah, but...what does it change?

Mekkah wrote:

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Yeah, but...what does it change?

Basically would raise the expected levels of the DB, I'd imagine, helping them be easier to salvage, perhaps fitting in the join of part 4 easier.

Also helps Savior more painlessly get to the GM. There's really no reason to keep it, since this is far simpler than just having Sothe Savior Michaiah and retreat to a corner.

That is unless again, I missed something that was discussed eons ago...

Unless it changes anyone's position on the tier list, I really don't care about that kind of thing.

Mekkah wrote:Unless it changes anyone's position on the tier list, I really don't care about that kind of thing.

Well, people said that due to leveling problems (1-E being one of the major factors to this), some people would not reach their ideal performance at the start of part 3, namely Leonardo and Aran. Leo could stand to go above Rolf (cause now he's far easily more capable of being the murderous laguzslayer he is destined to be), and Aran able to take on laguz seems like a far more solid ideal than a "maybe".

OR, if I'm just being deluded by that, I'd say that it would make Nailah a bit less important, as she's not required to make 1-E a joke.

So basically I think this would raise a couple DB just a little bit, or it would just drop Nailah a bit.

If the BK is ranked here (I missed him if he is on the list), I'd imagine this makes him far more flexible than just murderface who shows up, so he's got real utility outside of that. BK himself could rise, if he is ranked.

I have one small detail to point out here:

6 move, cost of 4 to go up ledges.

Sadly, his mobility is rather limited here. That's what makes Nailah so great. (9 move, 2 cost for ledges)


also, your options for KOing the thieves are basically

Give Nailah Pass and lose it until 4-1.
Have the BK clear a path for her since Alondite OHKOs things (even armors) and he has ~70% hit up ledges or something while doubling.

Unless you give Pass to Nailah, BK can't even rescue anyone until around turn 3 or 4, and then doesn't attack until the following turn. Also, the ledge at the top of the first staircase has a bunch of mages anyway. Then up and to the right a bunch of bow users and a javelin guy, I think. Basically, a lot of the area he can't get to quickly, and when he does he can only attack one dude anyway because he can't counter on player phase with a bronze sword. Also, still has 20% Eclipse.

You could give him a javelin, I suppose, but 45 mt OHKOs a lot of things, still. Not armors, but archers, myrms, some warriors/halbs.

Frankly, training other units is nice and all, but in this case it doesn't really give BK any more utility than it would otherwise considering it is not likely to do anything but slow you down while trying to train others.

Grandjackal wrote:Leo could stand to go above Rolf (cause now he's far easily more capable of being the murderous laguzslayer he is destined to be)

No, this wouldn't change Leo at all. Getting a few easy kills in the last part 1 map is not going to help him. He could already reasonably reach this "murderous laguzslayer" status before.

OR, if I'm just being deluded by that, I'd say that it would make Nailah a bit less important, as she's not required to make 1-E a joke.

Huh? In terms of speed/efficiency, BK killing things > BK weakening things, and Nailah is already > BK in 1-E. She was never "required" to make 1-E a "joke" anyway, she's just the best unit there.

If the BK is ranked here (I missed him if he is on the list), I'd imagine this makes him far more flexible than just murderface who shows up, so he's got real utility outside of that. BK himself could rise, if he is ranked.

Upper Middle (13) (T-5)
Elincia (N/T - Mag, Skl, Spd)
Micaiah
Black Knight
Tibarn
Naesala

To tell the truth, the only direction I can see BK going is down.

One of the thieves should be going after the chest with the cards, he should be easy enough to nab. On the other hand, if BK took the stairs, he could kill the armor knight at the top, thus allowing Nailah to not need pass. Otherwise, the archers would be distracted, as to bypass the need for pass, or you could just have a flier lift her up, plenty of options. I think you might be overblowing it.

Besides, what's wrong with having him have a few different weapons? If we need to make a bitch move out of the way immediately, let's do so. Thus, the magic of the BK.

What you say is true, that training's nice and all but we can do this, but the point is that throughout part 1, training DB is not hard at all, as it goes through basically the entirety of part 1.

But yeah, I suppose Nailah's not dropping it all...Good, I didn't want her to.

Fine, perhaps I'm just overscoping again, but it just doesn't seem hard to train up the DB at this point anymore. Besides, what point is there in the BK killing anything when he's not even necessary for a fast completion? You can just lift Nailah if you want, no killing required to get her up. Hell, not even Pass.

Perhaps I'm being a bit too opportunist...

You do realize that Jill can only fly up ledges if you've killed the enemy in the way, right? The ledges block fliers except at the points where units can climb, and those points are blocked by enemies that need to die.

Plus, Jill only has 36 wt, so she can't carry a transformed Nailah. Need to carry one that isn't transformed, and then Nailah is left untransformed on player phase. 73 avo, 16 def, 19 speed. Doesn't double much, 37 mt. But the trouble is she only has 7 move. The untransformed stats are probably not too great a problem, I suppose. Well, except for how she'll get blocked because she doesn't kill what attacks her and with cramped areas she may not be able to move forward.


So anyway, with Rafiel's help I can have BK clear out the two dudes blocking ledges and have Nailah all the way up blocking the thieves. I don't remember if she can quite kill one on turn 2 in this way, but even if she can't it's enough to block. I'm not quite sure how you plan on getting BK to KO the armor on turn 2, even with Rafiel. The only way I can think of is if you have Rafiel vigor BK (and Jill and Nailah) on turn 1, then have Jill pick up Rafiel so that he's closer for turn 2, then have someone drop Rafiel (probably Nailah or the 4th unit Rafiel vigored, since no one else can get this far). But to do all that, you have to take out the enemies that start near you, otherwise trouble. So anyway, now you get BK to move up the stairs, Nailah 2 behind him, Rafiel vigors them both, and Nailah runs up.

So you've basically done the exact same thing as I said on the ledges, and BK still needs to pick someone up on turn 3 or possibly turn 4, and he is a bit in front so he could maybe start weakening, but it's not really much different a result from what I stated.

There really isn't another option. Sure, the chest with the cards you can take out that theif, but the other one will get too far out of your way by turn 4. Very small window with which to take him out.

Also, the remainder of your units are likely further behind if you do things this way than they would be otherwise.

Would it be the same with Vika?

Vika has 14 wt transformed and can't even carry untransformed Nailah, if that's what you are asking.


If you are asking about ledges, then yes. Vika has the same Ledge climbing issues as Jill.

In case you are wondering, it's the same for both in 1-7. They can only go up a ledge at the same spot other units can climb, and they must not have an enemy in the way.



Of course, 3-13 is different. This is more of a disadvantage than an advantage, though, considering the enemy hawks.

Narga_Rocks wrote:Vika has 14 wt transformed and can't even carry untransformed Nailah, if that's what you are asking.


If you are asking about ledges, then yes. Vika has the same Ledge climbing issues as Jill.

In case you are wondering, it's the same for both in 1-7. They can only go up a ledge at the same spot other units can climb, and they must not have an enemy in the way.



Of course, 3-13 is different. This is more of a disadvantage than an advantage, though, considering the enemy hawks.

Fine fine, so I'm a bit desperate in trying to find what makes the DB useful. I should know better by now with this game...

...Still, it IS an interesting tidbit.

Yeah, but the title of this forum really isn't "Interesting FE10 Tidbits".

Mekkah wrote:Yeah, but the title of this forum really isn't "Interesting FE10 Tidbits".

I know, but I thought I was on to something.

I mean, must all topic creators be right always? Sometimes, the suggestion is wrong. I just happened to be proven wrong...

...Again.

Narga_Rocks wrote:also, your options for KOing the thieves are basically

Give Nailah Pass and lose it until 4-1.
Have the BK clear a path for her since Alondite OHKOs things (even armors) and he has ~70% hit up ledges or something while doubling.

Nailah doesn't need Pass. You have Celerity, a unit that OHKOs Armors, and a Heron. Use them.

Paperblade wrote:

Narga_Rocks wrote:also, your options for KOing the thieves are basically

Give Nailah Pass and lose it until 4-1.
Have the BK clear a path for her since Alondite OHKOs things (even armors) and he has ~70% hit up ledges or something while doubling.

Nailah doesn't need Pass. You have Celerity, a unit that OHKOs Armors, and a Heron. Use them.

Good thinking, but then one must ask if it's worth shoeing that till part 4, like Pass.

Then again, how much crap can you cram onto Illyana? I remember trying to transfer skill scrolls in her inventory, and I remember them vanishing when she got to the GM. I'd be inclined to believe she can only bring what she sets to her skills. If that's the case, I'm pretty sure she can only fit one of these skills.

They shouldn't vanish. On my draft playthrough I was able to transfer Celerity and Pass, which she doesn't have the capacity to use (especially before promotion).

Also, the basic outline of the strat (blah blah been 4 months since I've played RD)

Miccy with Celerity, plus Nailah and some random scrub (it doesn't matter who, you need 20AS to double or like 31 atk to OHKO, so pretty much everyone doubles or OHKOs, sometimes both). This means that Sothe, Zihark, Aran, Nolan, Edward, and Tormod can kill them, as well as Transfers Jill. That's basically every DB attacker worth even considering plus some one who isn't (hi Ed).

Run those 3 forward, Rafiel vigor, run forward with Miccy one shotting the first armor. Rest of your team clears out the scrubs behind you. Turn 2 involves some shoving and more Rafiel vigoring, but Nailah and your chosen scrub kill the Thieves and Miccy kills the armor.

And if you really want the GMs to have Celerity, you can steal it from Z or something in 3-7, and in this way you don't lose Pass for all of Part 3.

Really? Weird. Does that with mine...

Either way, sounds good enough to me. Though again, I suppose it's too late to make a point by now...

If I recall correctly, you only need Nailah to kill the thieves.

She should take the upper right deployment spot and use all her move up the stairs and transform. This should cause the archers to move out of the way of the ledge.

On the second turn, she'll run up the ledge and kill the archer.

On the third turn, she should be able to jump up to the next level and may even be able to kill one of the thieves immediately. Barring that, she can reach the thieves on the next two turns before they can get anything.