Lucius

Hiya.

I would love to know why Lucius is so high up. The (wo)man has absolute no defense (10% Def GR says HAI) and comes in almost as underleveled as Raven (around level 6). Add in the fact that anything stronger than Lightning (a measly 4 Mt) will weigh Lucius down to an AS that can't double anything that isn't weighed down or just ridiculously slow and I smell a recipe for disaster.

I first want to know why he's so high AKA above Pent. Then I'll try to argue him down.

Lucius has been shown in the past to be similar to Erk (slightly higher defense for Erk vs Lucius's staff rank and Raven support, jointime tilts it in Erk's favor), who has been shown to be arguable against or better than Guy and Eliwood.

Comparing to some upper mid tiers at first glance:

Florina's defense is not much if any better than Lucius's. Her Hp is barely higher, and while her Def is several points higher, she has to take counters aswell and has worse defense vs magic. And Lucius has better offense. Fiora should be a similar case.

There's Canas, but I recently argued for Canas to move up anyways in another topic, so no comment there. I will say that before promotion Lucius beats Canas in offense by alot and this is presumably the reason for the current gap between them.

Dart has alot more physical durability, but once again he has to take counters, loses magic defense by miles, and loses offense with his crappy base AS, and presumably utility arguments would be brought up against him (Lucius/Canas/Pegs have healing/flying, Dart just has a super expensive promo item).

Dart has alot more physical durability, but once again he has to take counters

Hand axes say hi.

loses magic defense by miles

It's not that big of a deal since magic users are rare and spirit water poses an easy solution anyway.

and loses offense with his crappy base AS

This doesn't tell us anything about how they compare in the future. By promotion Dart already has 16 AS. In contrast, Pent's base is only 1 higher, and Lucius himself only has 16.8 at promotion. Granted, he'll be at a higher level, but he also has con to worry about.

and presumably utility arguments would be brought up against him (Lucius/Canas/Pegs have healing/flying, Dart just has a super expensive promo item).

Dart can also walk on water and has a ~30-45 crit advantage on Lucius.

Vykan12 wrote:
Hand axes say hi.

They also say whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff.

This doesn't tell us anything about how they compare in the future. By promotion Dart already has 16 AS. In contrast, Pent's base is only 1 higher, and Lucius himself only has 16.8 at promotion. Granted, he'll be at a higher level, but he also has con to worry about.

I never actually had a problem with his speed, though perhaps it's due to lack of stats? Just remember to keep an iron axe for him, his main problem is he starts with garbage weaponry.

Hell, recent playthrough, I had Canas doubling some units in Pirate Ship, he hadn't gained a speed point in his previous level. Pretty sure speed's not a problem.

Dart can also walk on water and has a ~30-45 crit advantage on Lucius.

Exactly how often does waterwalk come into play?

The crit though? Certainly in Dart's favor. If Rebecca's in play, it's actually a reasonable support in speed terms. Even greater, it's firexfire, so that's crit, avoid, hit, power, basically everything you'd love to slap on a berserker and sniper.

They also say whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff.

I decided to do calculations. A lot of the higher avoid enemies listed in the enemy stats reach up to 20 avoid, at least in the listed chapters, most of the time around the 12-15 avoid area. Dart's Ski is 8, so that's 60 from Handaxe + 16 + 1 = 77 Hit. Enemy avoid (at max) brings that down to 57, or 63.45% true hit. This isn't taking account WTA against lances.

While his Skill growth is only 20%, just one point of skill boosts his true hit from 63.45% to 66.79%, and a point in luck will bring that to 68.40%.

Then doubling anything will increase the chances of hitting at least once.

"That is still not completely reliable accuracy."

The accuracy that Dart will have with a Hand Axe will give out misses, but "whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff" implies 0% hit or having hit that falls somewhere in the 40% disp. range, which is straight up sandbagging.

FE3_Player wrote:

They also say whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff.

I decided to do calculations. A lot of the higher avoid enemies listed in the enemy stats reach up to 20 avoid, at least in the listed chapters, most of the time around the 12-15 avoid area. Dart's Ski is 8, so that's 60 from Handaxe + 16 + 1 = 77 Hit. Enemy avoid (at max) brings that down to 57, or 63.45% true hit. This isn't taking account WTA against lances.

While his Skill growth is only 20%, just one point of skill boosts his true hit from 63.45% to 66.79%, and a point in luck will bring that to 68.40%.

Then doubling anything will increase the chances of hitting at least once.

"That is still not completely reliable accuracy."

The accuracy that Dart will have with a Hand Axe will give out misses, but "whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff" implies 0% hit or having hit that falls somewhere in the 40% disp. range, which is straight up sandbagging.

Have you seen the isles? Most of the cavs pack swords, or are neutral to the weapon triangle, such as nomads and magicians.

Also, he's getting weighed down by 2 with the hand axe. What exactly is he doubling with it in hand?

Against swords, on the enemy phase you shouldn't need a hand axe because, you know, swords have no ranged option.

And I just proven that he hits against enemies that are neutral to the WT. Lrn2read.

FE3_Player wrote:Against swords, on the enemy phase you shouldn't need a hand axe because, you know, swords have no ranged option.

You might as well not have it, since it would put Dart in range of having the RNG work against him. All it would actually do is leave him vulnerable to melee because his counter would most likely miss.

And I just proven that he hits against enemies that are neutral to the WT. Lrn2read.

Not quite reliably, of which even you said. You basically said that WTA would help solve it, of which doesn't till you're off the isles, of which they start existing again.

Just saying he's not the hottest unit on hte dread isle is all.

Not quite reliably

Not reliably is still much better than "whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff".

Don't sandbag a unit's accuracy if you're just going to try and cover your butt later on.

FE3_Player wrote:

Not quite reliably

Not reliably is still much better than "whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff whiff".

Don't sandbag a unit's accuracy if you're just going to try and cover your butt later on.

Fine fine, so I overexaggerated.

Hand axes say hi.

Yes, as FE3 Player has suggested, let's look at Dart's hit. A sampling of Ch 19's enemies:

Cavs:
3 w/ Iron Sword--16 Avo
1 w/ Iron Lance--16 Avo
1 w/ Steel Sword--14 Avo
1 w/ Steel Lance--8 Avo

Nomads:
7 w/ Iron/Short Bow--20, 22 Avo
3 w/ Steel Bow--12 Avo

For the record, Hand Axe Dart doubles none of these, not even the Steel Lance Cav. Hitrates for Dart:

Iron Sword Cav: 43%
Iron Lance Cav: 88.7%
Steel Sword Cav: 46.6%
Steel Lance Cav: 95%

Iron/Short Bow Nomad: 60-63%
Steel Bow Nomad: 73%

Granted that he can use the Iron Axe against Nomads on player phase, which helps him a good bit. Iron Axe hitrates:

Iron/Short Bow: 82-85%
Steel Bow: 92.2%

Anyways, Dart's average for the Hand Axe against all these enemies is 63% real. I'm gonna say that's pretty shitty. Meanwhile, a L11 Lucius has 99.55% hit against the 22 Avo Nomads, the most evasive enemies on the list.

Let's also keep in mind that this chapter has alot of forests. What if the enemy lands on one? Hitrates for Hand Axe Dart against enemies on forests:

Iron Sword Cav: 13.8%
Iron Lance Cav: 61.2%
Steel Sword Cav: 16%
Steel Lance Cav: 74.4%

Iron/Short Bow Nomad: 25-28%
Steel Bow Nomad: 37.1%

Overall average of 30.6%. Ouch. I won't bother to show all the numbers for Lucius, but he has 88% against 22 Avo Nomad + Forest, so yeah.

So Dart can either take counters, or lose offense by even more, since he's already losing even if he uses Iron/Steel; L11 Lucius has 13 Spd to base Dart's 8.

It's not that big of a deal since magic users are rare and spirit water poses an easy solution anyway.

Pure water is a good point, but magic enemies actually have quite a presence in some midgame chapters. Ch 21 features significant numbers of Monks, Ch 22 has 11 Mages, 2 Shamans and 6 Monks, Ch 23 has Mages near your starting point (and actually a large number of magic enemies in general, but Pent kills most of them), and 23x is obvious.

Dart can also walk on water and has a ~30-45 crit advantage on Lucius.

At 20/1, Lucius gets 2 extra crit over Dart from Skl, another 5 from a B with Raven, and 8 from Shine, canceling out Dart's class bonus. Dart's crit advantage is 30 if he uses Killer (or I guess 33 whenever Lucius uses Lightning, w/e). Let's look at Ch 24, which is usually regarded as promotion time. There's 2 main types of enemies here, Mercs and Wyverns.

24 Avo is a common value for Mercs. Hand Axe Dart has less than 50 hit so I'm going to ignore that. Killer Axe Dart has 54.4% hit, which is better but still pretty bad. Lucius + Lightning is 2HKOing and doubling with 100% hit.

Killer Axe Dart indeed 2HKOs Wyverns without any significant hit problems, but Hand Axe Dart is another story. Hand Axe is very borderline for a 2HKO; on average it fails to 2HKO the toughest Wyverns. Likewise Iron Lance Wyverns can go up to 18 Avo, giving Hand Axe Dart 93.49% hit against them, which is about 11% odds to miss on a double.

Promoted enemies in this chapter are Heroes. Most notable is the L10 Hero with a Silver Sword; guy has 47 Hp, 16 Def, 8 Res, 34 Avo. This guy is so beast that he actually has crit on Dart; 9 crit vs 20/1 Dart's 7 Luck. Even if you risk attacking him with the Killer Axe, Dart still has a depressing 35.7% hitrate, and the Hand Axe is even worse, so really Dart might as well not bother. Lucius + Shine deals 26 damage (a 2HKO) with 100% hit and 21% crit, and his Raven support gives him enough CEV to avoid getting critted, so he could actually beat this Hero 1-on-1 with an enemy phase counter followed by finishing on player phase.

Dart will presumably do better later, as he eventually passes Lucius in Spd and Swordreaver becomes buyable, but I certainly think Lucius wins up through Ch 24 at the minimum. And there's still CoD which is nearly an auto-win for Lucius IMO, so even if Dart wins from 25 through the final, that's 7 chapters not counting the final, vs Lucius winning for 10 (counting Pirate Ship in Lucius's favor). And I'm not entirely sure if Dart clearly wins later on, or by how much compared to Lucius's earlier wins, since any lategame victories for Dart will be based on durability, which is countered by staves.

I might do more detailed stuff later.

As for waterwalk, that's cool for 28x, where Physic is also really cool. Aside from that I don't see any other situations where utilizing it is a good idea. For example, in Ch 25 you can have Dart walk around in the middle of that lake if you want, there's just no point in it.

Exactly how often does waterwalk come into play?

I meant a combination of waterwalking and mountain hiking.

@Cats: The two main examples you used were Dart's joining chapter, and one that was merc/hero heavy. I'm thinking mainly how well Dart can hand axe post promotion in general to counteract Lucius' range. Anyway, the point was that Dart doesn't necessarily have to take counters, as your first post suggested.

Another thing to note, if Rebecca's in play, she gives full hit to Dart, and the support is pretty fast. 16/43/70.

I assure you that I did not, however, compare during Dart's two worst chapters. Take a look at Living Legend and Genesis.

Rebecca is lower mid.

CAT5 wrote:Rebecca is lower mid.

The very top of Lower Mid, you mean.

Yes, the very top of lower mid. The point is the same.