Marth

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If thieves are given credit for opening chests, shouldn't Marth also receive credit for not only opening chests, but also getting all the items available from villages? After all, he is the only one who can visit a village.

Marth is also the game's biggest support battery. He supports: Abel, Cain, Draug, Darros, Merric, Hardin, Horace, Beck, Athena, Minerva, Chainey, and to round it out an uber fast Shiida support (4th best unit iirc). All Mid, Upper Mid or High, and over half of those are High. On your typical team, he is supporting what, half the team? At least?

Combined with the fact that he doesn't even compete for a unit slot, all this makes it seem difficult to put him any lower than upper mid even if he had no combat, but then he does have combat too.

As funny as the thought of Gordon with melee abilities is, does it stop the fact that on average level, Gordon would be doing just as well with it as George would be, and that Parthia still hurts like hell that early in time?

Parthia isn't useable until Chapter 12x. Lets see how Gordon does:

15/0 Gordin: 26 HP, 25 (+2) Atk (Parthia), 9 AS, 10 Def
15 Julian: 27 HP, 22 (+3) Atk (Silver Sword)...34 (+3) Atk (effective armorslayer), 18 AS, 8 Def

Armors: Julian does 20-21 damage (x2) for a ORKO, while Gordon does 15-16 damage (x1) for a 3RKO. Gordon is 2-3RKO'd, Julian is 2RKO'd.
Cavs: Julian does 13 damage (x2) for a 2RKO, while Gordon does 21 damage (x1) for a 2RKO. Both are 2RKO'd.
Mage 3s: Julian does 23 damage (x2) for a OHKO, while Gordon does 25 damage (x2) for a OHKO. Both are 2RKO'd
Mage 5s: Julian does 22 damage (x2) for a ORKO, while Gordon does 24 damage (x1-2) for a OHKO. Both are 2RKO'd
Mage 7s: Julian does 21-22 damage (x2) for a ORKO, while Gordon does 23-24 damage (x1) for a 1-2RKO. Both are 2RKO'd
Stay the hell away from that Mamkute (although Julian can take an extra round thanks to not being doubled)
Sniper: Julian does 17-18 damage (x1) for a 3RKO, while Gordon does 19-20 damage for a 2-3RKO. Gordon is ORKO'd while Julian is 2RKO'd

The only enemy Gordon does much better offensively against is the same enemy that ORKO's him at 2 range.

Being comparable to a thief offensively when you have an A rank weapon isn't exactly stellar. Especially when you consider that any Hunters you may be using want that weapon too.

IOS wrote:Parthia isn't useable until Chapter 12x. Lets see how Gordon does:

15/0 Gordin: 26 HP, 25 (+2) Atk (Parthia), 9 AS, 10 Def
15 Julian: 27 HP, 22 (+3) Atk (Silver Sword)...34 (+3) Atk (effective armorslayer), 18 AS, 8 Def

Armors: Julian does 20-21 damage (x2) for a ORKO, while Gordon does 15-16 damage (x1) for a 3RKO. Gordon is 2-3RKO'd, Julian is 2RKO'd.
Cavs: Julian does 13 damage (x2) for a 2RKO, while Gordon does 21 damage (x1) for a 2RKO. Both are 2RKO'd.
Mage 3s: Julian does 23 damage (x2) for a OHKO, while Gordon does 25 damage (x2) for a OHKO. Both are 2RKO'd
Mage 5s: Julian does 22 damage (x2) for a ORKO, while Gordon does 24 damage (x1-2) for a OHKO. Both are 2RKO'd
Mage 7s: Julian does 21-22 damage (x2) for a ORKO, while Gordon does 23-24 damage (x1) for a 1-2RKO. Both are 2RKO'd
Stay the hell away from that Mamkute (although Julian can take an extra round thanks to not being doubled)
Sniper: Julian does 17-18 damage (x1) for a 3RKO, while Gordon does 19-20 damage for a 2-3RKO. Gordon is ORKO'd while Julian is 2RKO'd

The only enemy Gordon does much better offensively against is the same enemy that ORKO's him at 2 range.

Being comparable to a thief offensively when you have an A rank weapon isn't exactly stellar. Especially when you consider that any Hunters you may be using want that weapon too.

12x? Doesn't take THAT long for Gordon/George to get A rank.

Also, name me a hunter outside of Kashim (who will have to wait a little bit longer too) who will even have close to that sort of rank by that time. On a normal run, I can say without doubt that Gordon has close to George's rank. How do people who start a rank lower starting 3 chapters later have that kind of rank the time Gordon does?

You also seem to have forgotten the early promotion that Gordon can get. By the first seal, level 13-14 doesn't seem too unreasonable. This warrent's 13 speed, and soon to be the magic 14, along with adding 2 more damage. So with basically added doubling power, 2 more damage, and the ability to not get doubled by the sniper, those numbers don't look quite as bad anymore.

You also seem to have ignored that those sorts of numbers could help others avoid counters. Let's point out the armors again, you think Julian's gonna enjoy an armor shoving a lance in his face? Certainly not, and Gordon helps Julian avoid that, meaning Gordon's doing his job properly.

You also brought up an interesting factoid, Gordon getting attacked at range. Normally, this means that Gordon's initiating, because only an idiot would assume that a ranged guy would choose to attack an archer at range. A thing about bowmen is that they can attack at range without much worry. Why? Because even if countered, what big deal is it? Chances are they won't get attacked again, cause most of the time they shouldn't. At least Gordon's attacking. Julian's ranged response certainly isn't even close to that. While you COULD surround a sniper and whittle away, that still requires a lot of people since no one can double these guys. This is slow. Gordon's huge chip at least lowers the need of people significantly, allowing others to go about doing other things. Hell, thanks to sniper crit boost, Gordon could just take 'im out in a lucky blink.

Speaking of seals, yet another reason to assume Gordon will have A rank at least for chapter 11.

Also, can you say "Blowing cavs the fuck up"?

You realize that Parthia is gotten at the end of Chapter 12, right?

I also highly doubt that a character who needs a dozen chapters to be babied, requires a master seal, and requires an A rank weapon just to continue not to double for a few more levels (at which point there should be a dozen other characters who probably have A Bows), and be back to being mediocre after ten rounds is going to make any difference whatsoever. As a matter of fact, it just makes me want to argue Mattis over him (which I might do later tonight).

IOS wrote:You realize that Parthia is gotten at the end of Chapter 12, right?

...*Facedesk* Fucking memory!

...Whatever, not exactly changing the point here! Unless your name is Draug (Again, still find A rank unlikely for chapter 4 bowmen), you don't really put it to better use. Even George with a speedwing would still be weaker, since he's doing 2-4 damage less forever.

If we really have to blow Partia this early, Kashim could take it and actually ORKO things.

sPortsman wrote:If we really have to blow Partia this early, Kashim could take it and actually ORKO things.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe11/average/kashim.html

Wut? Kashim is 20/1 now?

We can also see that an early promotion would make him do only 2-4 more damage than Gordon against things Gordon doesn't double (which is soon to be cavs, you know, common threats?). We can also see that Gordon is a speed faster than Kashim too. Congratulations. You gave George 4 Str and a horse.

So if anyone's ORKOing anybody with Parthia at this point in time...

Hunters have Chapters 4, 5, 6, 6x, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 to get to A rank. Thats 10 chapters for 98 rounds of combat, or about 10 rounds of combat a chapter. Easily attainable, since they're mainly doing chip damage anyways.

IOS wrote:Hunters have Chapters 4, 5, 6, 6x, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 to get to A rank. Thats 10 chapters for 98 rounds of combat, or about 10 rounds of combat a chapter. Easily attainable, since they're mainly doing chip damage anyways.

Gordon has 3 more chapters and a rank higher to start with. On a normal playthrough, I only have him at George's weapon level, or lower by chapter 10. Hunters start with E, and have 3 chapters less to work with.

Do explain yourself, when Gordon can barely pull it off with a SEAL?

We can also see that an early promotion would make him do only 2-4 more damage than Gordon against things Gordon doesn't double

THis 2-4 damage eliminates tons of the borderlines on Gordin [I.e 3RKOing on High end armors, 2HKOing in high end mages]

The mages are an exceptionally big deal.

Grandjackal wrote:

IOS wrote:Hunters have Chapters 4, 5, 6, 6x, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 to get to A rank. Thats 10 chapters for 98 rounds of combat, or about 10 rounds of combat a chapter. Easily attainable, since they're mainly doing chip damage anyways.

Gordon has 3 more chapters and a rank higher to start with. On a normal playthrough, I only have him at George's weapon level, or lower by chapter 10. Hunters start with E, and have 3 chapters less to work with.

Do explain yourself, when Gordon can barely pull it off with a SEAL?

I did explain myself. 10 rounds of combat a chapter. In Interceptor's run, Draug has B Bows before Chapter 12. By the time Gordon gets 14 AS after promotion, Draug will have hit A Bows already and deal more damage/not have had to rely on a Master Seal.

By the time Gordon actually can double (assuming early promotion), half your team is outputting his kind of damage anyways without having to use a Master Seal or A rank weapon. Again, this is barely helping his case, and I could definitely see Vyland/Mattis>Him.

Actually I might see a bigger difference between Vyland and Matthis now but that's for a different day.

So atm it looks like Marth > Julian > Rickard, correct?

Seems right. Nobody seems to know where to put them though, as we don't know how much worth is going to be put on Julian/Marth's combat advantages.

From what I interpreted on IRC (and correct me if I'm wrong FE3), Rickard / Marth & Julian weren't getting a tier difference, so it's likely just Rickard < Julian.

I'll reiterate, there needs to be a tier difference. Julian has been stabilized as Lower mid being based on nothing except combat. That's significant enough.

Lol, you guys.

From what I interpreted on IRC (and correct me if I'm wrong FE3), Rickard / Marth & Julian weren't getting a tier difference, so it's likely just Rickard < Julian.

You got trolled harder than anyone.

Anyway, I fixed the tier list already, but it's funny to see this go on.

There is not a tier difference between Julian and Rickard right now, but Rickard is below Nagi & Gotoh to show that Rickard is more of a negative or neutral contribution. Julian returned to being back below Katua, which is much more important to me for accuracy than "TIER GAP, NAO".

I returned Marth back to his original position as well. I'm surprised you guys didn't catch what I did.

I'm getting tired of being ignored.

If nobody can explain how being Lower-Mid purely for combat ability isn't a tier gap on somebody with no combat ability, just say so and quit blowing me off.

Because this is the only reasonable way I can think of to make Thief utility mean something without making it mean almost nothing, by using the same criteria as other difficult to tier units such as the Ballistians or Nagi/Gotoh on the basis of positive/negative utility. If this is really such an issue though, I can always drop Rickard back to bottom tier where I'll never rise him.

Because this is the only reasonable way I can think of to make Thief utility mean something without making it mean almost nothing

It's not going to mean "almost nothing" if you cram Rickard at the top of Low or something.

Furthermore, if thief utility alone suddenly bounced up Rickard two tiers, it should bounce Julian up at least one.

Indeed, I'd see Julian more as Upper Mid material; someone mentioned his combat being similar to Athena who is currently near the top of Mid, then add on thief utility and it should bump him up. It also creates the demanded tier gap between Julian and Rickard, and Julian's still quite low compared to "best thief" units in other games (Matthew/Colm are top, Chad is high).

The way it is going to work is, at minimum Thief utility will put them around slightly positive utility (around Nagi/Gotoh), and then combat utility will rise them from there.

Combat Utility hasn't proven Julian to be better than Katua.

Athena should move down to Lower Mid in that case then, because Julian and Athena are essentially the same.

The problem with moving Athena down for such a reason is that most characters in that tier share similar problems as she does.

Mid tier is like...all utility characters except for the two Myrms and Roger/Caeser. On that topic, Roger joins pretty similar to Kashim:

Roger (5/0): 22 HP, 12 Atk (Iron Bow), 11 AS, 5 Def
Kashim (10/0): 24 HP, 18 Atk (+1) (Steel Bow), 9 AS, 5 Def

Kashim has an attack lead, but Roger gets to double much faster. Kashim never reaches 14 AS if he's going Hunter-->General, while Roger is reaching it at 13-14/0. After promotion:

Roger (20/1): 40 HP, 29 Atk (+2), 14 AS, 18 Def
Kashim (20/2): 38 HP, 28 Atk (+2), 11 AS, 20 Def

Kashim's def lead is cancelled out by Roger avoiding many more doubles. I could realistically see Roger (and perhaps Caeser, I need to look at him) in upper mid. That would leave the utility characters in mid tier, and allow the fail myrms to drop down to Lower Mid with Julian.

It'll probably be better to show that Katua is Mid Tier instead (her position was when there was no Upper Mid split, then Julian can rise with her.

I don't really think that Catria is mid tier though. I could probably show Catria>Athena pretty easily though, and Roger/Caeser>Kashim shouldn't be hard at all either.

Placing the thieves with Nagi and Gotoh denotes nearly-neutral utility, rather than reflecting any significant amount of positive utility, and the latter is what they have to offer.

With Rickard you might still plausibly defend that placement by asserting that there's no reason to ever, ever use him over Julian, but then obviously that doesn't apply to Julian, who is only separated from Nagi/Gotoh by one slot.

Furthermore, putting them in Lower Mid, i.e. the lower end of the list, actually carries a connotation of slightly negative utility, which most certainly isn't the case.

If Julian ends up in Mid, then Rickard will go back above Nagi & Gotoh.

Okay, look at it this way:

The maps Rickard will be fielded in:

9, 12, Maybe 14, maybe 15, 17, 17x, 19, 20x, that's it

Julian: All of these, plus everything else from 3 to Final

That's roughly two and a half times the amount of chapters of when Rickard is doing anything at all. Furthermore, since Ricardo is 100% dumbshit useless at combat, fielding him on non chest chapters or even trying to have him fight won't do anything except waste time. So Rickard's team is going to always have one more empty slot than Julian's team, and that obviously puts a damper on efficiency. Julian's not a master of combat or anything but past his sucky period he can do some damage, which is better than Rickard standing aound in the unit screen on non chest chapters with his thumb up his ass. Hell, even Julian during his sucky period (which doesnt even exist anymore by the time Rickard joins, btw, or at least it's close to vanishing) contributes more than Rickard.

If Julian ends up in Mid, then Rickard will go back above Nagi & Gotoh.

Perfectly acceptable by me.

We can't say that Rickard won't be fielded because we're using Julian. What if Julian got completely RNG screwed? What if he accidentally died, and we didn't want to restart? What if we just don't want to use him one playthrough? Julian being better shouldn't mean that Rickard can't be used in his place and contribute the same amount of thief utility as he can.

What if Julian got completely RNG screwed?

Ricardo is really so bad combat-wise that he can't be a suitable replacement for an RNG screwed Julian. RNG screwage doesn't kill a Thief's utility anyway, especially if Ricardo being capable of being higher than bottom because of it is acceptable.

EDIT: Actually, I think I can downplay the positive aspect of thief utility slightly.

The reason I said that is because B2BD assumed that Rickard won't be fielded in maps that only require one thief.

I'm kind of all over the place on what side I'm on. I guess its good that I'm not biased toward a side though.

Time for a large post.

It is easy to call Thief utility an easy positive, for they collect items that help the team and are the most likely at doing so, and don't require leveling up in order to accomplish their job. However, is it as really clear cut as this?

I see Thief utility as much like seizing, where it's a goal, but the main importance is actually getting to the goal.

With that said, for Thieves to truly get full credit for the items they collect, and not just consider said items a part of chapter objectives, they need to be able to collect the items by themselves.

What chapters and what items are they capable of getting on their own?

Chapter 6: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo06.htm

Most of the credit goes to enemy thieves that are conveniently placed on the map, which steal items for you to kill and gain items from. Only the first chest is guaranteed to be taken by a Thief. Meanwhile, you have to go through the intersection and encounter Armor Knights, Archers, that freaking Mage, and those freaking Social Knights. Alternatively, you may warp to block the exit, making credit go to the Warp user.

Chest items obtained: 5
Chests taken by Julian/Ricardo without help thus far: 1

Chapter 9: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo09.htm

Thieves can easily get the two chests in the center of the map, with practically no resistance from enemies whatsoever, but a flyer is most suited for grabbing the Dragon Slayer (which is taken by a Thief, so no Master Key is required), due to the distance and turn count required to get there, as well as the terrain that makes a Thief getting there non-permissible unless the enemy Thief is killed first.

Chest items obtained: 8
Chests taken by Julian/Ricardo without help thus far: 3

Chapter 10

Only two chests, one is taken by an enemy thief. The other, unless Julian can kill the armor by himself, will require help on a map where every unit is already hard pressed.

Chest items obtained: 10
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 3
Chest items obtained with help: 1

Chapter 12: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo12.htm

A chapter full of chests. There are two enemy thives, probably bizzaro Julian & Ricardo, but they're too far away from the chests and your thieves will get to them first. If you count the number of spaces, with no obstruction from Marth's starting position, he can actually land on a chest tile while barely losing efficiently, so we can assume he can grab one chest. The thieves can get chests 1, 2, or 3, whichever ones Marth didn't grab. Their free credit stops there, though, because they can't simply walk up and grab chests 4 & 5, due to the Sniper & General.

Oh, and there's simply no hope of getting the Boots without a Warp. By the time Thieves get there, Marth is ready to hit the throne (similar Mov values, and Thieves are lagged getting other chests), so a healer will get credit for the Boots, if you don't hurting warp skip abilities because of it.

Chest items obtained: 16
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 5
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 4

Chapter 14: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo14.htm

Good luck with that Sniper, or it may even be possible to kill the Thieves after they take the items.

Chest items obtained: 18
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 5
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 6

Chapter 15: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo15.htm

You're better off using a flyer to grab the chests with a Master Key since even Thieves will take awhile to get across the desert, and that's AFTER Gharnef leaves. If not that, warp them there, which Healers get credit.

Chest items obtained: 20
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 5
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 8

Chapter 17: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo17.htm

Another large chest room, but this time you actually have to get past a bunch of crap in order to reach the chests, a serious credit to everyone else. Not to mention two thieves will grab two of them. Enjoy the Hero and Mages and the Sniper, Thieves aren't likely to be getting there by themselves.

Chest items obtained: 27
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 5
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 13

Chapter 17x: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo17x.htm

I admit, I never actually played Gaiden chapters before, but it looks like all of the chests require help to get, especially since they are so far apart on the map and tend to be guarded by enemies.

Chest items obtained: 32
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 5
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 18

Chapter 19: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo19.htm

Now this sounds like a jackpot for thieves. A bunch of chests with no enemies in them if you know the map layout. Enemy Thieves already get you the mandatory items. The only issue is that, because this map is so short, that you may end up completing it without being able to get every chest, but I'll assume they get them all anyway.

Chest items obtained: 41
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 13
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 18

Chapter 20x: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo20x.htm

I'm not sure if Ymir attacks, so I'll assume these chests are gotten for free. They'll need help getting every other chest, and may not get them all without warp.

Chest items obtained: 47
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 15
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 22

Chapter 23: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo23.htm

Two free chests.

Chest items obtained: 49
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 17
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 22

Chapter 24: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo24.htm

One not-free chest.

Chest items obtained: 50
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 17
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 23

Chapter 24x: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo24x.htm

Two chests, but you have to clear the chapter to get to them.

Chest items obtained: 52
Chest items obtained by Julian/Ricardo without help: 17
Chest items obtained that Marth can get: 1
Chest items obtained by with help: 25

So of all of the chests in the game, only roughly 17 they can get full credit for. For every other chest, either enemy thieves open them for you, or you need the aid of some other unit or need to clear the chapter to some degree in order to make the chests available in the first place, so Thieves are being helped just as much as they are helping everyone else when it comes to Thief Utility.

I think they're fine where they're at right now.

Needing to have another unit help is not a big problem, so I don't agree with your slush-pile of chests that thieves are effectively denied credit for. Regardless of whether you need someone to Warp or clear a room, the fact of the matter is that you still need a thief to open the chest unless you use a key or Marth. It makes the chest more complicated to get in general, it does not mean that the thief is not contributing to efficient completion, or that you have to split the baby down the middle.

I am not denying Thieves credit (few other units can indirectly buff other units through the use of Master Seals or stat boosts), I simply believe the journey to the chests should be accounted for as well.

I'm pretty happy with the tier list right now. I think that we're past the "dramatic changes" phase, and we'll hopefully just be tweaking characters within tiers now.

We can't say that Rickard won't be fielded because we're using Julian

That's not what I said. There's a reason I used the terms "Rickard's team" and "Julian's team".

Second, in this case, you CAN kind of assume that. Why on earth would you ever need two thieves in this game? I guess it also works the other way around, though, but that's just further justification for the "Unit A+Team v Unit B+Team" thing.

Julian being better shouldn't mean that Rickard can't be used in his place and contribute the same amount of thief utility as he can.

Again, that's not what I said. Read my post again.

fielding him on non chest chapters or even trying to have him fight

Namely, this portion.

Rickard is 100% useless at combat [He's by far the worst combat unit in the game, bad enough to qualify as a tier under Arran/Lolenz/Est tier], this is a fact and I truly hope you're not trying to deny it. So if there's no chests for him to open, why the hell am I fielding him? Enemies prioritize units with worse stats, and Rickard's are pretty much never going to get any better, so the only thing fielding Rickard will accomplish is that you paint a giant target on his chest and risk having to restart the chapter, because you're screwed if he dies.

B2BD assumed that Rickard won't be fielded in maps that only require one thief.

there's maps that require two thieves?

I'm not sure if Ymir attacks

Minor point, but Ymir doesn't move [but he will attack anything in his melee attack radius], just clarifying.