Supports

Why are we assuming full supports for characters in this, when things like EliwoodxHector in FE7 are assumed to be at an A very late in the game? I know that supports are quicker, but there's also that damn limit to them. I think that a list of viable supports like the one that was made for the FE7 tier list is in order because, really, stuff like ClarinexRutger is slow as hell, and there's a move difference. It just won't happen.

Maps are generally larger and take longer to complete in this one, so building supports becomes a lot easier. Also, it's not as easy in this game to steamroll the enemies without supports. Even the guys at top of Top, Alan and Lance, rely on each other's support pretty often.

By the way, ClarinexRutger is easy. It comes early, which helps the fact that it takes a while, and the healer is the one with the higher move, which means it doesn't affect it as much.

[quote="Red Fox of Fire"]Maps are generally larger and take longer to complete in this one, so building supports becomes a lot easier. Also, it's not as easy in this game to steamroll the enemies without supports.

Even the guys at top of Top, Alan and Lance, rely on each other's support pretty often.

They also join in the first chapter and the support is really fast.

By the way, ClarinexRutger is easy. It comes early, which helps the fact that it takes a while, and the healer is the one with the higher move, which means it doesn't affect it as much.

Bad example, then.

A better one would be OujayxAnyone. He doesn't come very late, but his highest support is +2 with a 10 base. I don't see him getting an A with anyone.

ChaosNinji wrote:A better one would be OujayxAnyone. He doesn't come very late, but his highest support is +2 with a 10 base. I don't see him getting an A with anyone.

Has he ever been assumed to? The big problem I see with his supports is that they're all Low tier or worse except Lalum, but lol at that for multiple reasons. However, if he's in play at the same time as Lilina, I could see them reaching A eventually, even if it's late, given how they could function together.

I think your problem in general would be better done calling out someone on a support that you think isn't viable when they try to use it. We've had a hell of a lot of support discussions in this game as it is and I don't think we're currently assuming any that aren't really viable. We used to, but we stopped.

They also join in the first chapter and the support is really fast.

This is true, but think of FE7 characters like Marcus (for a while at least), Raven, Priscilla, Hector, Oswin, Sain, Kent, Lowen, Erk etc. who don't really rely on supports at all to get themselves as high as they are on the current tier list (Kent and Sain do help each other but they probably don't need it), and their individual performance against their enemies is often better than Alan and Lance's.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Has he ever been assumed to? The big problem I see with his supports is that they're all Low tier or worse except Lalum, but lol at that for multiple reasons. However, if he's in play at the same time as Lilina, I could see them reaching A eventually, even if it's late, given how they could function together.

I've seen Barth A being assumed.

I think your problem in general would be better done calling out someone on a support that you think isn't viable when they try to use it. We've had a hell of a lot of support discussions in this game as it is and I don't think we're currently assuming any that aren't really viable. We used to, but we stopped.

Fine.

This is true, but think of FE7 characters like Marcus (for a while at least), Raven, Priscilla, Hector, Oswin, Sain, Kent, Lowen, Erk etc. who don't really rely on supports at all to get themselves as high as they are on the current tier list (Kent and Sain do help each other but they probably don't need it), and their individual performance against their enemies is often better than Alan and Lance's.

I suppose, but early-midgame, people often don't ORKO. That extra offense from those supports helps.

I think the only time when an OJ support can possibly assumed is when tiering a character that supports OJ but is lower than him.

dondon151 wrote:I think the only time when an OJ support can possibly assumed is when tiering a character that supports OJ but is lower than him.

Not from what I've seen. :/

Why are we assuming full supports for characters in this, when things like EliwoodxHector in FE7 are assumed to be at an A very late in the game?

Dragon's gate is not that late, and even though full supports aren't as much easier as Reikken would have you believe, the ARE notably easier.

bblader1 wrote:

Why are we assuming full supports for characters in this, when things like EliwoodxHector in FE7 are assumed to be at an A very late in the game?

Dragon's gate is not that late, and even though full supports aren't as much easier as Reikken would have you believe, the ARE notably easier.

Dragon's Gate? It's been assumed to be a B later than that.

You're saying it takes us more than 10 chapters to stick Eliwood/Hector together for 27 turns [for B support]

okay

bblader1 wrote:You're saying it takes us more than 10 chapters to stick Eliwood/Hector together for 27 turns [for B support]

okay

I'm not. Others have.

ChaosNinji wrote:

bblader1 wrote:You're saying it takes us more than 10 chapters to stick Eliwood/Hector together for 27 turns [for B support]

okay

I'm not. Others have.

The only "other" opinion I've heard on the matter is Mekkah giving a list of viable supports in FE7 and putting a tag next to ElixHector (A by Dragon's gate)

bblader1 wrote:
The only "other" opinion I've heard on the matter is Mekkah giving a list of viable supports in FE7 and putting a tag next to ElixHector (A by Dragon's gate)

Maybe I misread it, then. .-.

A list of viable supports with chapter approximations included should be made. If a support isn't really viable and A is assumed, it may result in some redundant arguments that'll get nuked sooner or later.

Also, the limit thing won't do much against supports in an efficiency run, it really only gets in the way if you're trying to get an assload of supports going in the same chapter.

ThunderMan wrote:A list of viable supports with chapter approximations included should be made. If a support isn't really viable and A is assumed, it may result in some redundant arguments that'll get nuked sooner or later.

Also, the limit thing won't do much against supports in an efficiency run, it really only gets in the way if you're trying to get an assload of supports going in the same chapter.

Agreed. I'm very iffy with arguing supports with some of the characters in this game mainly because I don't know what's safe.

I've never gotten Eliwood x Hector to A by Dragon's Gate, ever.

In FE6 I always assume at least 5 chapters per level of support for +2 supports that start at 1, and up to 7 for the A support.