Klein and Igrene shouldn't be 2 tiers apart

Bases comparison (Klein's HHM bonuses are accounted for):

Klein: 33 hp, 16 str, 16 skl, 13 spd, 13 lck, 9 def, 7 res

Igrene: 32 hp, 16 str, 18 skl, 15 spd, 9 lck, 11 def, 10 res

Even if we level up Klein a reasonable amount in his 3-4 chapters, they're still going to have roughly the same stats when Igrene joins. Their growths are also pretty similar (except for luck) so that isn't going to create any significant stat gap except maybe 2 points around the final chapter or something.

Is 4 chapters of availability and better supports reason alone for a 2 tier gap?

It's been brought up several times before, but no one ever really argues it. It always go by the wayside.

But I for one agree, Igrene's by no means low tier material.

Another deal I should add is her Fa support is surprisingly effective in Sacae.

I don't think there's even a tier gap.

There seems to be some consensus for a change. The current list has:

-Upper Mid Tier-
Klein
Lou
Cecilia

-Lower Mid Tier-
Bartre
Tate
Oujay
Geese
Noah
Zealot
Treck
Ward
Fa
Niime
Ray
Lillina
Garret
Douglas
Barth

-Low Tier-
Cath
Hugh
Bors
Zeiss
Igrene

I'd start by trying to move Igrene over Niime.

Or Klein could move down a tier too. imho he's overrated due to his constant doubling issues. He's not even that good during his "utility" period as his spd is roughly on par with the rest of your team.

btw Vykan, not to nitpick or anything, but it is more like 6~ chapters of availability due to gaidens.

Yeah, what exactly got her below the likes of Hugh, who comes later, costs more, and loses every base except Luck? He has kinda better growths, 5 more levels, and staves on his side, and I haven't looked into Igrene's performance, but I honestly don't see that, at least at a glance.

Sorry about this next one Vykan, but I saw it and I just had to do it.

(Klein's HHM bonuses are accounted for)

Klein does not get HHM bonuses because he's not in FE7.
*flees*

13 spd and a 45% growth...

I'm looking through some averages and a lot of decently fast units reach 13 spd at about lv 15. I haven't beaten FE6 HM so I have no idea what a reasonable level is by then.

15~ is a pretty accurate level for when Klein joins, so yeah, he's not doing a very good job at sticking out. Even Lugh who Jackal anti-hyped him below is tying him in speed. Furthemore most fo the cast has MUCH more lategame potential than Klein, who honestly doesn't really have any high points outside of Ilia and maybe C21/C23, and I say maybe because you'll have lots of units able to double the wyverns by now. Klein can certainly stand to go down.

I don't want to hear overhyping of his supports either, because they're all one-sided [snipers have no business caring about def/avo which is what his affinity gives]

Even Lugh who Jackal anti-hyped him below is tying him in speed.

It's not just that. If a unit is lv 15/0, they'll have higher exp gain, or they can choose to promote right away for a 1-3 spd advantage. The gap matters too since the enemies in this game appear to have half decent stats for a change. A wyvern I encountered in chapter 21 had 17 spd, then there's those famous nomads in sacae, and so on.

Yeah, I'm thinking Hugh pretty much instantly loses to Igrene because of cost. If we really can't find anything else to spend with the money it takes to recruit and promote him we can always buy 3 Angelic Robes and give +21 HP to the team. Hugh's probably not beating Zeiss either, who creams him in durability and mobility, has comparable Speed, and who can give the team +14 HP for the same cost as it takes to recruit and promote Hugh, though he doesn't have Staff use and likely has worse damage. Huh, Zeiss might be underrated as well.

Magus wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking Hugh pretty much instantly loses to Igrene because of cost. If we really can't find anything else to spend with the money it takes to recruit and promote him we can always buy 3 Angelic Robes and give +21 HP to the team. Hugh's probably not beating Zeiss either, who creams him in durability and mobility, has comparable Speed, and who can give the team +14 HP for the same cost as it takes to recruit and promote Hugh, though he doesn't have Staff use and likely has worse damage. Huh, Zeiss might be underrated as well.

Well, Angelic Robes are 4k and recruiting and promotion Hugh is 15k. So 3 Angelic Robes only amounts to 12k. Igrene's team could buy one more and only cost 1k more than Hugh, so +28 HP is probably more accurate if it means anything.

For Zeiss it's a bit different but the same idea. Two robes only costs 8k of the extra 10k Hugh costs. I don't think this makes any real impact on the situation, I just thought I'd mention it.

There's a surplus of whips present in this game so I don't think you can assume Zeiss is chugging 10k.

bblader1 wrote:There's a surplus of whips present in this game so I don't think you can assume Zeiss is chugging 10k.

I didn't. I said the "extra" 10k Hugh costs, and Hugh costs 15k (Recruitment and Guiding Ring), and 15k - 10k = 5k.

Now before we rush into things, I just want to point a couple things out.

-Who else is using the brave bow aside from Shin who probably doesn't need it anyways? This thing is pretty nifty in Sacae, helps destroy wyvern lords, falcoknights as well if you find them annoying,and allows a double on the heroes. It's a great lategame weapon, I'd daresay even better than the Miurge. Klein and Igrene can use it without effort, Walt and Dorothy can with an early promotion, granted they got a rank up within that time (brave bow is B rank...actually I think I ran into this problem before, does weapon rank go up with promotion?)

-They're effortless. Lou was brought up, and that guy has to be dragged through crap earlygame. Yeah he's forced, but being slightly better than Walt isn't winning him medals. Effortless and no need for a promotion item.

But I suppose I can't stop the "they're archers, so fuck them" deal. I see no reason Klein should be below the Ilian cavalry though in the least.

As or Zeiss? Well a level 12 promotion (essentially 10 kills to get him there), he's Miredy without the speed. Pretty much sums it up there. Ridersbane on the chapter 16x and 17 cavs will help him out.

-Who else is using the brave bow aside from Shin who probably doesn't need it anyways?

If Shin is raised (and I’m guessing he kinda has to if we go Sacae), then he obviously wants to use a brave bow to avoid player phase counters (eg/ javelin!wyvern, sage, etc). Also, the BB is limited to 30 uses, so you can only expect at most 15 kills from it. If Shin and Klein share the bow, that’s cut down to 7.5 max. Why does the brave bow even come up in such a discussion? Its effect is negligible, especially if you don’t just save the whole thing for 3 wyvern heavy chapters.

They're effortless. Lou was brought up, and that guy has to be dragged through crap earlygame.

-__- *Another +/- utility discussion ensues*

I like what Reikken wrote about this:

of course Mia is not directly negative utility. No one is. The negative utility part comes in from taking more resources than the unit is giving back in aiding speedy chapter completion.

In other words, Lugh’s negative has to come from the items, stat boosters, etc. we’re giving him. In regards to chapters themselves, we can always devise a strategy where Lugh is being helpful, even if it might be something as little as taking care of 2 reinforcements.

Another thing, many earlygame chapters have forced deployment, so that plays into Lugh’s favor even more in regards to him being helpful earlygame.

Vykan12 wrote:
If Shin is raised (and I’m guessing he kinda has to if we go Sacae), then he obviously wants to use a brave bow to avoid player phase counters (eg/ javelin!wyvern, sage, etc). Also, the BB is limited to 30 uses, so you can only expect at most 15 kills from it. If Shin and Klein share the bow, that’s cut down to 7.5 max. Why does the brave bow even come up in such a discussion? Its effect is negligible, especially if you don’t just save the whole thing for 3 wyvern heavy chapters.

Not necessarily so. No one is forcing us to use Thany, and I have incentive to use Sue in chapter 7 for mobility and being the best archer because of it (the other archers are only gloating 2 extra damage at best). No one's forcing me to use Shin either. They're both just upper mid, so while good you also have plenty of other fish in the sea to choose from. In exchange, that's 2 promotion items I can sell for 10,000 in the bank.

Shin by then has about roughly 45 or so HP, and 11 defense. Your regularly bum nomad has 18 ATK. That's a 7RKO. I really don't think he gives a shit if he's hit or not. If he's got Fir to B, he's only taking 6 damage, an 8RKO.

It's like giving Caineghis Resolve, it's just overkill.

-__- *Another +/- utility discussion ensues*

I like what Reikken wrote about this:

of course Mia is not directly negative utility. No one is. The negative utility part comes in from taking more resources than the unit is giving back in aiding speedy chapter completion.

In other words, Lugh’s negative has to come from the items, stat boosters, etc. we’re giving him. In regards to chapters themselves, we can always devise a strategy where Lugh is being helpful, even if it might be something as little as taking care of 2 reinforcements.

Of which he is not being incredibly effective, and thus cuts into how fast he is improving. So he's not a negative, it doesn't stop him from being crappy positive. He is barely better than Walt, so he is probably improving at about the same rate, of which is not too fast.

Another thing, many earlygame chapters have forced deployment, so that plays into Lugh’s favor even more in regards to him being helpful earlygame.

So basically we should ignore anything bad that happens with anyone earlygame? We can't just say "he's forced", and assume everyone is just ok. Some people are not good (since saying they're bad is assuming negative), and thus cuts into how fast they level. They have a hard time comparing later when they have a hard time getting to par in the first place.

Here's a strategy. I don't have to use him so I don't have to worry about him dying and thus having to reset. I can send him out to be a sacrifice, and now the enemy is out in the open where I want them. Just saying "come up with a strategy and everything's ok" doesn't justify how troublesome a strategy can be to pull off. The easier time I have, the more efficiently I'm going through. Lou causes us troublesome strategies, and for most of the game he's justifying his position with "better than Walt" performance. I'd hardly call wasting out time with him so that he can spam aircalibur on wyverns later on by plopping him on a mountain as upper mid. It's like how Sothe's forced in endgame in FE10. He's forced, but that doesn't stop him from sucking there. People choose not to use him, or just kill him off for a dragon. Just because they're forced doesn't mean you have to use them, the same way Walt's pretty much assumed.

But hey, apparently I'm biased.

and I have incentive to use Sue in chapter 7 for mobility and being the best archer because of it (the other archers are only gloating 2 extra damage at best).

???

What’s so special about using Sue in chapter 7?

No one's forcing me to use Shin either. They're both just upper mid, so while good you also have plenty of other fish in the sea to choose from.

Why is Shin only upper-mid? If it’s because “bows suck terribly” then remember he can uses swords after promotion.

Your regularly bum nomad has 18 ATK. That's a 7RKO. I really don't think he gives a shit if he's hit or not. If he's got Fir to B, he's only taking 6 damage, an 8RKO.

You still have to heal that chip damage eventually.

Of which he is not being incredibly effective, and thus cuts into how fast he is improving. So he's not a negative, it doesn't stop him from being crappy positive. He is barely better than Walt, so he is probably improving at about the same rate, of which is not too fast.

Again, you’re looking at Lugh alone, not the full picture. From my experience playing HM up until chapter 4, the entire team struggles mightily –even the great Marcus- so you have to contrast Lugh’s “not being incredibly effective” to things like Ward pulling 60 display hit on an enemy, Lance pulling double 5s on an enemy that has like 30 hp, Roy taking more damage from pirates than he’s dishing out, etc.

Some people are not good (since saying they're bad is assuming negative), and thus cuts into how fast they level.

You seem to be counting the same deterrent twice. You’re either helpful but have trouble gaining exp or you slow the team down but keep up in terms of levels.

Vykan12 wrote:
???

What’s so special about using Sue in chapter 7?

Mainly to chip at wyverns with steel bow and the mobility. She's an extra rescuer, can at least respond to archers, chip soldiers, and do the archer deal on wyverns. Due to mobility, she has an easier time reaching the one that goes after Zealot and Treck unlike Walt and Dorothy.

Really, you might as well bring one archer to this place. compare Sue's bases to a level 6 Walt or a level 5 Dorothy. She's basically them with more speed, more mobility, and less effort. Her only real problem is her stuck to bows issue, and that her damage does not increase very well.

Then again with steel, she has 14 mt, isle enemies have around 4-6 Def, HP around the low 30s...But I suppose that's for another topic.

Why is Shin only upper-mid? If it’s because “bows suck terribly” then remember he can uses swords after promotion.

I think it was doubling off the bat, so his chip damage is actually substantial. Klein can too. Whatever he can't double, he's got the brave bow and silver for.

Yeah yeah, hammerne, but what else are we using it for aside form other brave weapons? Legendaries shouldn't be abused THAT often.

You still have to heal that chip damage eventually.

Average Nomad
HP: 35
Attack: 18
Hit: 116
Crit: 18
Attack Speed: 19
Avoid: 46
Crit Evade: 9
Defense: 7
Resistance: 5

Shin by now (he should at least be 20/3) has 58 avoid at base, reducin them to 58 hit. Fir B reduces it to 48. It's not hard to argue that they will miss on occasion. He will not needing much healing at all.

Again, you’re looking at Lugh alone, not the full picture. From my experience playing HM up until chapter 4, the entire team struggles mightily –even the great Marcus- so you have to contrast Lugh’s “not being incredibly effective” to things like Ward pulling 60 display hit on an enemy, Lance pulling double 5s on an enemy that has like 30 hp, Roy taking more damage from pirates than he’s dishing out, etc.

Then Boris needs to rise who can help defend against these evil bastards.

Now how much stress are you really gonna put on this?

Also, how is Marcus having trouble? He can still double some things on occasion, helps destroy the pain in the ass nomads, and has silver access.

Again, this doesn't address the fact that this is still just chipping. Are we to give credit to people for the ability to finish people off? I'm pretty sure that crap didn't fly for Ross in FE8, why should it here?

You seem to be counting the same deterrent twice. You’re either helpful but have trouble gaining exp or you slow the team down but keep up in terms of levels.

Surprise is that aside from cavs, Walt and Lou actually do very similar damage earlygame. Yet, look where Walt is on the basis of "he's not leveling fast enough".

Grandjackal wrote:

Vykan12 wrote:
Again, this doesn't address the fact that this is still just chipping. Are we to give credit to people for the ability to finish people off? I'm pretty sure that crap didn't fly for Ross in FE8, why should it here?

I have no idea what they were doing on the fe8 board, but here is my perspective on chipping:

Not everyone is actually good at it. You'd think anyone would be good at KOing things with <8 hp remaining, but that simply isn't the case (bad accuracy causing misses or bad durability limiting the positioning). If someone can function as a cleaner during its not so good period and without hampering the army get enough levels to reach its good period, there is no reason to whine negative utility or painful training to get in the way of credit for the unit's good period. It shouldn't be getting much in the way of positives for this bad period, but you can't hold it against a unit when the unit is helping to clear space and speed things up compared to if the cleaner wasn't there.

Mainly to chip at wyverns with steel bow and the mobility. She's an extra rescuer, can at least respond to archers, chip soldiers, and do the archer deal on wyverns.

I recall reading Dondon saying somewhere that Sue had 60ish hit on wyverns with a steel bow. Rescuing and other such utility has nothing to do with exp gain, which is what ultimately affects route choice. Chipping at enemies is something virtually anyone can do, it doesn’t make Sue special.

Anyway, I’m lost on what the point is here. If Sue is used in one chapter, that increases the odds of going Sacae, but we were already talking about Sacae to begin with. Moreover, if Sue is raised, that makes another competitor for the brave bow, which only strengthens my point.

I think it was doubling off the bat, so his chip damage is actually substantial. Klein can too. Whatever he can't double, he's got the brave bow and silver for.

I think you misread:

Why is Shin only upper-mid? If it’s because “bows suck terribly” then remember he can uses swords after promotion.

I’ve seen Shin in high before. His 20/1 averages are actually arguably better than Alan/Lance, but of course he joins later, worse supports, stuck to bows before promotion, etc. make him at least a tier worse than them.

Yeah yeah, hammerne, but what else are we using it for aside form other brave weapons? Legendaries shouldn't be abused THAT often.

Ever hear of the warp staff? It has a range of mgc/2 + 5, so if someone has a mag stat of 20, they can send someone off a whopping 15 spaces, or more than 2 turns ahead of a promoted mount moving fully. In addition, it is awesome for bypassing terrain. Look at chapter 21x for example:



The green path is how you’d have to go about normally. The red path is what the warp would allow you to do. Look how much travelling you can save.

He will not needing much healing at all.

I guess you’re not following me. Klein using the brave bow is at Shin’s expense in one way or another. Let’s say Shin cannot kill an armor with a silver bow but can with a brave bow. Oh wait, Klein is hogging it.

You can’t give Klein full use of the brave bow without accounting for that negative factor.

Then Boris needs to rise who can help defend against these evil bastards.

Let’s try to stay on-topic.

Also, how is Marcus having trouble? He can still double some things on occasion, helps destroy the pain in the ass nomads, and has silver access.

I meant it in the sense that he isn’t the easy button that most jeigans are in earlygame.

Again, this doesn't address the fact that this is still just chipping. Are we to give credit to people for the ability to finish people off? I'm pretty sure that crap didn't fly for Ross in FE8, why should it here?

I have to remind you that everyone is chipping in earlygame unless you’re fighting a soldier or are Marcus and can double (he still might even need the silver lance).

And yes, we do give credit to people for the ability to finish people off, except that its value is in relation to how much damage other people are outputting. If the whole team is 1RKOing except for Lugh, then his chip damage is literally worthless. However, if Lugh hits a cavalier enemy and sets up Alan for a 1RKO, that obviously can’t be neglected.

Surprise is that aside from cavs, Walt and Lou actually do very similar damage earlygame. Yet, look where Walt is on the basis of "he's not leveling fast enough".

And that could very well be another fault of the current list. Will you quit bringing so many other characters into this discussion?

Surprise is that aside from cavs, Walt and Lou actually do very similar damage earlygame.

Now you're resorting to bullshit.

They have the same atk, only wait, LUGH HITS RES and since enemies actually have def that's huge. Walt will do ike 2-3 damage to a Cav, Lugh does 8 or 9. And oh look C6 has armor knights which are easy pickings for Lugh, Walt will tickle those putzes.

Furthermore Walt's position is not there on the basis of him levelling slow. Walt's problem is that his stats suck. You should know this.

But here's the thing, Klein can avoid a counter with it just like Shin. You saw the stats, you don't exactly need much to take down a nomad with the brave bow. Defensively they're the same, just counter, both hits land, end o' story. Basically player phase is the same since they just brave blast the enemy. Enemy phase, they just counter. Shin only needs silver for enemy phase, as it would get the same results. The only difference would really be in armors, which is a rather rare occurance for the time the brave bow would actually come into play. It's not even Shin's only option, he has Miurge.

I will say this though. Brave Bow on the boss in the desert. That guy is a pain in the ass, and this is your only possible way of doubling him outside of maybe like Rutger. Shin can't do this because he doesn't have the rank. Even early promotion would only warrent C. There's other bosses too, like the Armads boss, Flare, Oatz, even Narshen.

I suppose I...can't really compare the rest. I concede.

bblader1 wrote:
Now you're resorting to bullshit.

They have the same atk, only wait, LUGH HITS RES and since enemies actually have def that's huge. Walt will do ike 2-3 damage to a Cav, Lugh does 8 or 9. And oh look C6 has armor knights which are easy pickings for Lugh, Walt will tickle those putzes.

Walt also has 2 and most of another chapter to build levels. Chapter 4 I already admitted to Lou doing better (I hate cavs...Why couldn't they give you a bone and handed you a steel bow now?), but by chapter 5, they would be incredibly similar despite the gaps.

Furthermore Walt's position is not there on the basis of him levelling slow. Walt's problem is that his stats suck. You should know this.

It really does make me wonder what they were thinking with archers. An early promo allows him to be sort of similar to Klein with a dooming point less of speed, but he'd have B rank. This is enough for the Brave Bow, which I'm still trying to think out all the uses for. Other factors are rank, like Shin can't use killer bows or the brave while Walt could (at least the killer before promotion).

I think with snipers, the aim they were going for was being dependent on their equipment, as to help them co-exist with nomads who had the stats and melee to back them up so they wouldn't need resources so much as to take away from snipers.

It's weird to think, but something is warping in my head to make me think what the fuck is the point of making archers suck this bad. I guess I'm just rambling at this point.

Walt also has 2 and most of another chapter to build levels.

Too bad it does him absolutely no good. He needs two levels just to...beat Lugh in atk by one which still does not come close to negating the huge def/res gap.

bblader1 wrote:

Walt also has 2 and most of another chapter to build levels.

Too bad it does him absolutely no good. He needs two levels just to...beat Lugh in atk by one which still does not come close to negating the huge def/res gap.

Thus why I said similar, not exact. You're basically saying Lou wins because he does 1-2 more damage, which is the most minor win I have ever heard of.

I'm sure you noticed thorughout my tirades that I said he's performin "slightly better tha Walt". Lou's notable in chapter 4, otherwise he isn't.

You're basically saying Lou wins because he does 1-2 more damage

Except he DOESN'T do 1-2 more damage. Loldiers are the only enemy type that the def/res gap is neligable on. Walt does nothing against knights, is helpless at one range [Lugh can at least take A hit against some things which is better than Walt standing there like a moron], cannot attack archers without getting countered, and can actually double attack a few things with Thunder, Walt won't double attack a single damned thing with Steel.

Oh, and 1-range attacks/actually being good at 2 range damage/knight kills cancels out two chapters of availability and then some.

bblader1 wrote:

You're basically saying Lou wins because he does 1-2 more damage

Except he DOESN'T do 1-2 more damage. Loldiers are the only enemy type that the def/res gap is neligable on. Walt does nothing against knights, is helpless at one range [Lugh can at least take A hit against some things which is better than Walt standing there like a moron], cannot attack archers without getting countered, and can actually double attack a few things with Thunder, Walt won't double attack a single damned thing with Steel.

Oh, and 1-range attacks/actually being good at 2 range damage/knight kills cancels out two chapters of availability and then some.

Chapter 4 yeah, chapter 5 no. Lou can't not be killed by everything in chapter 5. Wolt actually has the advantage, cause he can afford to attack something that can counter him back.

Nothing one shots Lugh [who I put at 4, and 5 is possible] unless they have Steel.

bblader1 wrote:Nothing one shots Lugh [who I put at 4, and 5 is possible] unless they have Steel.

How does Lou get 3 levels in 1 1/2 chapters?

It's not a one shot necessarily, but he's still easily ORKOd. there is very little he can be exposed to if at all, he's basically a magical archer in all sense of the word.

How does Lou get 3 levels in 1 1/2 chapters?

He's low leveled, he has a monopoly on at least weakening the armors and maybe the fighters, chip damage on cavs, pirate reinforcements, etc.

t's not a one shot necessarily, but he's still easily ORKOd

...Um, slow axemen don't double him, so if they don't one shot him they obviously can't ORKO him.

Or if you mean the nomads/Merc, it is hilariously easy to keep him away from them because they're all the way on the other side of the map getting bogged down by the forests.

bblader1 wrote:

How does Lou get 3 levels in 1 1/2 chapters?

He's low leveled, he has a monopoly on at least weakening the armors and maybe the fighters, chip damage on cavs, pirate reinforcements, etc.

How long are you taking on these chapters? You got a hammer, use it. You also don't have to wait for all the pirates to get through the chapter, I highly doubt he's getting enough for that many levels in that time. By the time in chapter 3 Lou gets to my group, I'm practically in the treasure room already. Frankly, sending one of your better combat units up north to rescue Lou is a waste, they have better things to do at the front door.

How long are you taking on these chapters?

Were you not listening when I said somebody on a mount can easily transport Lugh to the scene by the time the armors have to be dealt with?

You got a hammer, use it.

You also have shitty hit rates with or without WTA, and it's still a two round. Lugh doing what the hammers do all of the time>Ward/Lot weakening with hammer 50% of the time.

You also don't have to wait for all the pirates to get through the chapter,

When did I say ALL of them, and when did I say just play with your prick and wait? They're another source of easy targets for Lugh.

Frankly, sending one of your better combat units up north to rescue Lou is a waste

lmfao, Thany (with Bors)'s one of our better combat units now?