Stop sandbagging warp?

^

what

He means to take more seriously the ability to slash turns with Warp-skipping. I think.

yes

We sandbagged it?

Colonel M wrote:We sandbagged it?

This whole time, yes.

I owe Warp a lot. If it wasn't for that staff, I probably would've dropped the game when I first played it in normal mode and never try the other difficulties.

Thing about Warp is that so many units can use it. Pretty much any girl or Set A guy can go Cleric and use Warp. I guess you mean that it's been sandbagged for chars who have periods of time where few or no other units are able to use Warp (Lena and Bishop Wendell being the only two examples I can think of)?

I mean its significance in general, and more importantly how it affects unit importance in certain chapters (hello frequently mentioned Ch. 22 flyers.)

It puzzles me why it was sandbagged in the first place... unless the entire top tier would be mage characters without so much as a few lines of discussion.

Only 1 vote for no, and 7 for yes (and I know who voted no).
Looks like we'll be seeing some tier jumps.

The only people I could possibly see this helping would be Elice and Lena (who is already pushing it, imo). Maybe Boah.

why Elice and none of the other dozen plus people who can use it before her

TEH FINEL CHAPTAR

sPortsman wrote:why Elice and none of the other dozen plus people who can use it before her

Auto-A staves might help her beat someone like Tomas, I guess. :/ I mean, Nagi and Gotoh are in the middle of the list, and they just help to speed up the final chapter, like Elice.

This is kind of proving my point, though. Warp doesn't really matter that much.

This is kind of proving my point, though. Warp doesn't really matter that much.

It matters a lot. We just haven't crossed that bridge yet.

FE3_Player wrote:It matters a lot. We just haven't crossed that bridge yet.

Please, tell me who it's going to help.

I'm waiting.

It's not a matter of what healer jumps up.

It's a matter of who it hurts.

EDIT: Well, who sees Macellan as the new Tomas?

Colonel M wrote:- Wendell

D staves. Closer than E, but it really doesn't matter that much.

- Lena

She just moved to above Ogma, for Christ's sake. Instant-Warp does not make you almost High Tier material when you have absolutely nothing else besides the Hammerenne and early Mend to go with it.

- Boah

Who I mentioned.

- Etzel

D staves at Chapter 18? That's not helping anyone.

- Elice

Again, mentioned her.

- Probably some of the othr Class A putzes

Need I say more?

Matthis should be directly under Merric.

What? I mean, they join in the same chapter, so Matthis can get Warp as soon as Merric. He should be right next to him!

FE3_Player wrote:It's not a matter of what healer jumps up.

It's a matter of who it hurts.

Then explain who it hurts to me. I don't see how this could possibly be a huge deal.

Calm your attitude, Ninji. It's generally agreed that the changes won't be as huge as I first anticipated because the original reason for sandbagging warp was for the exact same logic presented in your sarcasm.

I put her under Wendell, as a blind start which is not an accurate position yet, though in essence Hammerne can repair warps for the late game.

FE3_Player wrote:Calm your attitude, Ninji.

Did I sound enraged, or something? Didn't mean to if I did.

It's generally agreed that the changes won't be as huge as I first anticipated because the original reason for sandbagging warp was for the exact same logic presented in your sarcasm.

Alright.

I put her under Wendell, as a blind start which is not an accurate position yet, though in essence Hammerne can repair warps for the late game.

Fine. I've always found the Hammerenne a bit overrated here, though. I mean, it's not like the FE5 Repair staff or anything...

Did I sound enraged, or something?

Yes.

Fine. I've always found the Hammerenne a bit overrated here, though.

This is probably the most misguided assumption. I had to fight to accurately tier Hammerne in the past.

FE3_Player wrote:Yes.

Whoops.

This is probably the most misguided assumption. I had to fight to accurately tier Hammerne in the past.

It's just for, what, 6 chapters, at the most? >_>;

It's just for, what, 6 chapters, at the most? >_>;

Yes, but now that we're assuming that these chapters are being skipped, being able to repair Warp is more significant now.

Rena will drop, but under Wendell is just to find a spot in Upper Mid.

FE3_Player wrote:Yes, but now that we're assuming that these chapters are being skipped, being able to repair Warp is more significant now.

Rena will drop, but under Wendell is just to find a spot in Upper Mid.

We're assuming that chapters past Chapter 20 are being warp-skipped?

Matthis and Vyland > Palla is fairly easy to see, then. She's beating them mainly in lategame performance, which is apparently being warp-skipped, while they're better in the midgame.

I like how you immediately jump on the Vyland & Matthis train the moment I say that.

I'd rather concern myself with characters that everyone actually cares about first.

FE3_Player wrote:I like how you immediately jump on the Vyland & Matthis train the moment I say that.

To be fair, I was originally thinking about how it affects Marth and Jeigan.

I'd rather concern myself with characters that everyone actually cares about first.

Oh, ha ha ha.

Jeigan will likely stay where he is. His entire utility happens when we're conserving warp uses, so it won't affect him very much.

FE3_Player wrote:Jeigan will likely stay where he is. His entire utility happens when we're conserving warp uses, so it won't affect him very much.

Exactly why I didn't bring him up. :/ I was only thinking.

We'll probably have to see how 10/1 works with units such as Roger and Caesar. Otherwise I'm seeing Lena above them at the bar minimum. I think Warp could be the final nail in the coffin to put Wendell in bottom of High though since he can act as a backline healer in the later stages and still Warp.

It just occurred to me that most people that warp skipped the game may have been using Zag or Wolf to rip apart bosses. If most characters cannot do this, then Warp won't be too significant.

I dunno, if it's not significant for that reason, then you're saying we assume the tier play is often going to bring neither Wolf nor Zagaro?

We may have to assume them, then.

They're the two best units, of course the player is using them.

Why are they needed to rip apart bosses, though? Their offense is not that much better than units like Cord or Barst IIRC, and indeed worse if you go with General.

If you're conserving Warp uses until later, then Wendell shouldn't rise much if any at all. By lategame tons of other units can potentially use Warp; Wendell's period of using Warp when few others can is earlygame.

They're the two best units, of course the player is using them.

I am against assuming a team with named characters that leave little room to tier other characters, unless absolutely necessary.

Why are they needed to rip apart bosses, though? Their offense is not that much better than units like Cord or Barst IIRC, and indeed worse if you go with General.

And this statement makes it unnecessary to require Zagaro or Wolf on our team.

I am going to return Rena to her original position. It is clear that assuming Warp skipping chapters is not having a significant impact on healers.

I am against assuming a team with named characters that leave little room to tier other characters, unless absolutely necessary.

I don't see how this would lead to Wolf/Zag not being used. It's obviously possible to assume that the player's team consists of upper mid/high/top tier units + whatever unit is being discussed/compared/tiered, and indeed this is what is done more often than not (for example, does anyone care about Cain/Abel's support bonuses from the Peg sisters or include them in comparisons?).

The only requirement is that the team must be able to work efficiently. I do NOT require that the team include mostly or almost only High/Top characters.

This tier list promotes efficiency, but not so much that we need a certain combination of named characters to reach a certain turn count. If we're examining a character, then we're assuming that the rest of the team works. It doesn't matter what these characters are, it just has to be good enough to beat the game.

FE3_Player wrote:I am against assuming a team with named characters that leave little room to tier other characters, unless absolutely necessary.

It's absolutely necessary if you're making an efficiency tier list. Sedgar and Wolf are so ridiculously good that not including them would make a substantial impact on your efficiency and turn count.

The most accurate way to tier characters by efficiency is to identify the most efficient play-through, shoehorn the character that you're trying to tier into that play-through, and see what happens.

This is pretty much where I draw the line. I am perfectly fine sacrificing tiering accuracy and efficiency for better discussion.

It doesn't matter what these characters are, it just has to be good enough to beat the game.

Theoretically any team can beat the game. I dunno, maybe not a team of the absolute most horrible units out there, but the vast majority of the possible teams should be able to complete the game. So are you saying that any team composition is possible, and that nothing should be assumed about the makeup of the team?

The only thing that should be assumed is that we're not using a team that sucks so bad (say, Gordon, Roshe, Radd on the same team) that it builds up a collective amount of suck that turns the game into a challenge mode where you're forced to play inefficiently or RNG abuse.

What do you mean by "forced to play inefficiently?" The only possible definition I can come up with for "playing inefficiently" is having a higher turn count, and using a team of not high/top units causes you to have a higher turn count as compared to using a toptier team.

Warp also makes chapters 23-25 much easier, regardless of what team you're using (as long as you have a powerful assassin for bosses). That should at least be taken into account

In turn, would this make Lena rocket up, since it makes Hammerene even more lol since now we can warpskip the whole rest of the game?