Fire Emblem Genesis

screw playing, i want to argue about it on the internet

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So let's discuss these failure units one more time...

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Vyland, Matthis, Roshea, and Radd in particular.

If we're seriously ditching Curate -> Sniper for good, I might as well post this to help think about what I'm putting into the Character List. Let's start with Vyland at 15/1:

15/1 - 28.4 HP | 9.2 Str | 6.5 Skl | 11.6 Spd | 6.2 Luck | 9.1 Def | 0.0 Res

Let's look at DracoKnight:

30.4 HP | 12.2 Str | 9.5 Skl | 12.6 Spd | 6.2 Luck | 12.1 Def | 3.0 Res

It's true he'll miss out on doubling some things at the moment; however, he does pack 27 Atk w/Silver Lance. He's still 2RKOing the unpromoted enemies. There's the Mamkute up in the northeast corner. Flight gives him a little advantage to reaching it faster thanks to flight and Dragonpike is certainly advantageous; however, the Mamkute does threaten to double him. Forging a little Mt on it isn't a bad idea since Mamkutes are an occuring threat. It takes +4 Mt to OHKO I think with Vyland's Str +2 from rank. Later ones get tougher than this guy, but the extra Mt still helps.

C13 he can just plop as a Paladin and not worry so much from Arrowspatte. C14 has a lot of unpromoted enemies but at this point he likely has his 14 AS to double the Cavs and Archers. As a Draco he can reach near the chest area faster and at least prevent the Thief from getting far, but in return he does get doubled. C15 Draco is a mixed blessing. Thankfully Vyland can walk around with 10 Res, but the 25-26 Atk hurts a lot, putting him into 2HKO range. I'd say he should be able to proc 3 HP at that point, so I wouldn't be holy hell worried about it. Vs. other Dracos he's like every land unit that doesn't have a bow. C17... let's say 15/6:

32.9 HP | 13.45 Str | 10.5 Skl | 15.35 Spd | 7.7 Luck | 12.6 Def | 3.2 Res

Ridersbane gives ORKO potential vs. Cavaliers. Paladins take at least a good chunk and Horseman... well... he can't ORKO them, but at least he's doing about 32 damage per round out of 36-37 HP, so not bad. With Silver Lance we're talking 28 Atk, not bad at least. DracoKnights take 16 damage, a little under half their health. Generals take 24 damage per round, so a 2RKO. Heroes take 19 damage per round. Again a little under half their health.

Defensively... well I'm not going to go over the obvious Horseman. I'd at least assume -2 Atk from every lance unit. Thieves and Heroes take a major penalty though: goodbye 4 Atk!

Wyverns: 3RKO
Cavs: 3RKO
Paladin: 3RKO

So he's 3RKOed.

C17 is indoors but DragonPike usage isn't bad vs. the Mamkutes. He can ORKO Armors w/Silver. Problem is the stupid Sniper in here. Granted swapping to the Paladin works. C18 flying isn't bad to be honest: with two flying units you can charge the boss then warp Marth to the throne. THe problem is you have to make sure no Horseman can come at you through the process. Ridersbane, if playing the chapter longer, does wonders to these things. C19... lol-4 Atk and the Mages can at least be alleviated with the Pure Water. So C20. 15/11:

35.4 HP | 14.7 Str | 11.5 Skl | 18.1 Spd | 9.2 Luck | 13.1 Def | 3.4 Res

Unfortunately it looks a little bleak for Vyland. He's missing on doubling the Paladins in this chapter, which are very common. Do keep in mind though that he can swap to Sniper and solve it. With Sniper his AS jumps 2 with some other stat losses / gains. The main point is his offense. Now I'd at least assume that a little bit of Sniper was used beforehand, at least for Silver Bow. So just looking at his offense quick:

Silver Bow - 27 Atk

32/46 on the Paladins, which is at least helpful. Generals are pretty tough but are 3RKOed. Ballistae take 28/43 damage. At least here he can be of use. Chapter 20X is pretty easy so pass onto C21. Now I know I get flamed a lot because I put a lot of emphasis on taking down those Dracos. So you have a choice. What helps make the choice easier? If you used a little bit of Sniper beforehand + C20 and 20X, you can at least double the Paladins. The second option is nefing DracoKnights HP down to pretty high levels: 38 damage at worst. Still, he's contributing positively either way: whether dealing heavy damage on Dracos or ORKOing w/Ridersbane on Paladins. C22... this is where it gets all shaky. Again, choice is between the flying units vs. mounted, though the DracoKnight class gets some more weight thanks to there being Horseman to KO. It doesn't help him a whole lot, but at least again the Ridersbane ORKOing the Paladins and using it on Horseman weakens them considerably. C23... this is tough.

Longbow: 24 Atk
Paladin's HP | Res (w/Pure Water): 38 HP | 13 Res | 8-9 Luck

You're probably curious on why I mentioned Luck here. Fairly simple: Thoron. It 2HKOes Paladin!Vyland anyway (his HP is WAY too weak for this type of tactic) and he could run into some crit chances. Longbow at least allows him to bypass it slightly; however, do keep in mind that he can JUST MISS on the Bishops (a Str proc should do it). In C24 he can do one of two things: fly over to the boss and use Gradivus + Dragonpike OR just use Dragonpike in general against the Mamkutes. In C25 I'd just assume a "warp skip" since he's nothing special here.

So yeah, I typed a lot just for the sake of DracoKnight. Sniper does have a slightly better Spd growth, but it marginally matters at best. It should be practiced at least a little bit so that his C20 performance can be a little more solid as a DracoKnight or even C21-C22. For the most part he can work alright with DracoKnight.


So why do I bring up Mattis next? Look at his 15/1 stats:

31.7 HP | 10.2 Str | 5.9 Skl | 8.6 Spd | 3.9 Luck | 10.9 Def | 0.0 Res

This is bad: his AS is pretty low to begin with. I will admit though that his durability isn't too bad: 32 HP | 11 Def. Anyway, let's glance at DracoKnight and Sniper bases alone:

Draco - 33.7 HP | 13.2 Str | 8.9 Skl | 9.6 Spd | 3.9 Luck | 13.9 Def | 3.0 Res

Sniper - 37.7 HP | 12.2 Str | 14.9 Skl | 11.6 Spd | 3.9 Luck | 13.9 Def | 3.0 Res

Whew, tough to decie. 34 HP | 14 Def is pretty stellar, though at best it makes things a 3RKO (26 Atk - 14 = 12). Sniper is a little close to doubling than Draco. Here's the problem though, the Speed growth is appalling:

Draco - 35%
Sniper - 40%

To reach 14 AS AT LEAST, Draco has to undergo 12 levels just for that. Sniper has to go under a little less gruesome work, but the problem is the AS could becomes 11 at that point, making Matthis miss his benchmark. Sniper needs 5 levels... which is a lot. So maybe DracoKnight's durability could save him...

Well it can for anything unpromoted. His durability growth is pretty balling: 80% and 25% for HP and Def, respectively. 15/6 he has 37.7 HP | 15.15 Def. Granted his AS is still pretty paltry: 11.35. It won't prevent him from being doubled by promoted units, but he should be able to brace a 2HKO. So what about Cavs, can he at least make up for it here? Probably, it's about 9 damage per round, so a 5RKO. Unfortunately by C16 we have a large amount of units:

Chapter 16:

3 Horseman [2 lvl 6 1 lvl 8]
3 Wyvern [lvl 6]

6 Cav [2 lvl 10 3 lvl 8 1 lvl 6. 2 8 cavs have a Javelin, another has Silver Sword. Lvl 10s have Armorslayer and Ridersbane, lvl 6 has Ridersbane]
1 General [lvl 2]
1 Paladin [lvl 4]
1 Priest [lvl 8]
2 Hero [lvl 4]

Want to add insult to the injury? He can't double Generals!

This trend continues for a while. Then C20 arrives and...

41.7 HP | 16.4 Def | 13.1 Spd

Mother of God, he JUST made the requirement to prevent being doubled by Paladins. So let's review. 16 damage per round or a... 3RKO on the dot. Not bad to be honest. If he gets a level up he can make that a 4RKO (+HP and Def). Not to mention that they all have to connect so:

13 + 10 (Rena) + 10 (WTA) + 3 (Luck) = 36. So a 59% chance to hit, a little higher with the 2 RN system. I must say I'm kind of impressed.

C21 is the stump though. Notice that the DracoKnights and Pegs are quading him all over the place. Good news is he can subtract 2 Atk from them all (the Braves). The DracoKnights are practicall doing 3x4 so like it matters. Pegasi are practically doing 1x4 which is "lol". The highest Atk, IIRC, is like 28 (without a Brave). This makes it a 2RKO though, so he has to watch out on anything that doesn't have a Brave and packs mighty high Atk. C23... just go Sniper IMO. Don't waste you time. C24 DracoKnight is fine. C25 I'd warpskip.

This really isn't 100% debating whether Vyland > Matthis or visa versa, but merely to discuss what we're going to do with these failboats now. At first I thought due to not doubling Matthis would fall a tier. Though, looking at his durability it isn't half bad. Almost good enough to actually take a spin on, or even go up a bit. Dunno though, because I might still see Vyland > Matthis since Vyland can at least get some offense.


Vyland - Cavalier -> DracoKnight (Sniper for some chapters such as C20 when his Spd is too low, C21, C23, and possibly C22)

Matthis - Cavalier -> DracoKnight. It's okay, but I wouldn't toss it as "worst of the worst".

Feel free to discuss whatever you'd like.

Maybe I'll make Rody happy because I didnt spam "Bows" with this. Matthis should actually stay away from Sniper IMO.

Last edited by Colonel M on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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If we're seriously ditching Curate -> Sniper for good


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If we're seriously ditching Curate -> Sniper for good

Yeah, this is news to me. Mind explaining why, especially the Curate part?

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Curate -> Sniper is practically useless. Let me sum it up for you by using Matthis:

35.3 HP | 8.6 Str | 10.7 Skl | 12.8 Spd | 3.9 Luck | 7.9 Def | 7.2 Res
Steel Bow: 18 Atk

Want to know how sad this is?

15/1 Draco Vyland w/Javelin: 21 Atk

...That's a kick in the balls.

So review C14 where he likely gets +1 Spd. First off look at the enemies:

5 Archer [lvl 7, 2 Long Bow 1 Silver Bow]
4 Cav [lvl 7]

Now their AS:

Archer 7 (Silver Bow): 32 (33) HP, 23 (24) atk, 104 (105) hit, 10 (11) AS, 7 (8) def, 0 (1) res, 4 (5) crit

Cav 7 (Silver Lance): 35 (36) HP, 27 (28) atk, 103 (104) hit, 10 (11) AS, 9 (10) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

So he already misses near or over half the units here (I'd estimate half of them would have 11 AS, half would have 10). Then 18 Atk. This kills the Archer in 3 hits if Def is 7, but if it's 8 it's in 4. Not to mention they have Longbows, so he can't kill on Player + Enemy Phase. The Cav... if it has 9 Def it's killed in 4 hits. If it's 10 Def... it's 5. Now another thing to keep in mind is that if you don't kill the Cav on the Player Phase, he is practically gaining +10 HP (remember the Curate w/Reserve). This means Matthis needs 1-2 more hits sometimes to effectively kill them. Granted it's slightly situational (he'd have to be facing a Cavalier by himself), but something like healing screws up the potential 2RKOes easily.

Now look at Armor Knights:

Armor 7 (Silver Lance): 36 (37) HP, 27 (28) atk, 103 (104) hit, 4 (5) AS, 12 (13) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
12 mt Ridersbane: 36 (37) HP, 26 (27) atk, 103 (104) hit, 4 (5) AS, 12 (13) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
Forged Javelin: 36 (37) HP, 25 (26) atk, 103 (104) hit, 4 (5) AS, 12 (13) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

Armor 11 (Silver Lance): 40 (41) HP, 29 atk, 104 hit, 5 AS, 13 def, 1 res, 4 crit

Go tough as balls to kill? 12 damage per round if they have 12 Def, or lol10 damage per round if they have 13. Jesus, he not only struggles to 2RKO, he can even struggle to 3RKO, nay 4RKO if it'sthe bottom Armor and he procs HP. That's pretty pathetic.

Oh, get this: he can miss a 2RKO on a THIEF:

Thief 9 (Silver Sword): 30 HP, 21 (22) atk, 110 (111) hit, 18 AS, 3 (4) def, 5 crit

Have fun on that one.

C15 he probably has Silver and procced Str. This should give him 23 Atk. Good news is there are some DracoKnights that he can go play on.

C16... likely proced +Spd, maybe +Str. So 24 Atk | 15 AS.

3 Horseman [2 lvl 6 1 lvl 8]
3 Wyvern [lvl 6]
6 Cav [2 lvl 10 3 lvl 8 1 lvl 6. 2 8 cavs have a Javelin, another has Silver Sword. Lvl 10s have Armorslayer and Ridersbane, lvl 6 has Ridersbane]
1 General [lvl 2]
1 Paladin [lvl 4]
1 Priest [lvl 8]
2 Hero [lvl 4]

So he doubles 7 units. Automaticall he gains advantage against 3 DracoKnights, so let's skip that. Going on to, say, Cavs.

Cav 6 (12 mt Ridersbane): 34 HP, 26 atk, 104 hit, 11 AS, 8 def, 1 res, 4 crit

Cav 8 (Silver Sword): 35 (36) HP, 28 atk, 109 (110) hit, 11 (12) AS, 9 (10) def, 0 (1) res, 4 (5) crit
Forged Javelin: 35 (36) HP, 26 atk, 104 (105) hit, 11 (12) AS, 9 (10) def, 0 (1) res, 4 (5) crit

Cav 10 (11 mt Armorslayer): 37 HP, 27 (28) atk, 110 (111) hit, 11 (12) AS, 10 def, 0 (1) res, 5 crit
12 mt Ridersbane: 37 HP, 27 (28) atk, 105 (106) hit, 11 (12) AS, 10 def, 0 (1) res, 5 crit

Once again barely struggling to double these things. With his all high and mighty Silver Bow (24 Atk whoopee) he does 28 damage if he doubles. If they proc Spd, he'slooking at 14 damage per round, or a 3RKO. 3RKO on Cavs... interesting.

Now Horseman he 3RKOes, the Paladin he can actually miss 3RKOing (proc HP), Heroes get 3RKOed, and Generals he 3RKOes (but he has to hit it 6! times).

Chapter 17... oh boy. He 2RKOes Armors but it takes 4 hits. Mages are ORKOed. Bishops are ORKOed. Snipers are 3RKOed. Mamkutes... oh boy, look at their 15-16 Def though. It may not seem like much, but it's only letting him produce 8-9 damage per round, which normally isn't bad, but the insulting thing is someone like Barts can pull out a Hand Axe and nearly do the same thing or charge up with Wyrmslayer and do something.

To be honest I could continue on, but let's say this: the enemies that he could double he's practically 50% it. His Str at this point is so bad even with Silver it's near-comparable to a unit slapping 2 range on themselves. Post C20 I know I am 100% guilty of this, but he only has advantages for possibly 3 chapters where he can severely weaken the DracoKnights, but every other enemy he might as well "fail" on. Longbow is for C23 and the extra padded Res might help him here. C24... might as well be a "cockblock" since Matthis can do almost absolutely nothing.

Curate's advantage is that he can assume neutral utility by being a healbot, but practically anyone can do this job (If you're Class A or Female, you can be a healbot). Even though they're nothing spectacular as Cavaliers I wouldn't go so far as demoting them to absolute shit. They are pretty close to Ridersbane which helps their C8 scenario and it can probably last as long as C10. They still have Javelins, and they'll grow their stats in the right places still. The army struggling to double also helps their cases a bit too. Yes I'll admit that Curate -> Sniper Matthis can double some units, but even DracoKnight!Matthis can bypass the doubling thing by slapping a Ridersbane and 2RKOing the en-mass Cavs. The Armors, for a short time, probably can't be Hammertimed but later on it's a possibility. He could also just switch to Silver Lance and drop 28 damage per round for worst case scenario. What's really sad though is that Matthis's 2 range is practically comparable to everyone's 1-2 range.

If we're going to nail on Cav!matthis and Vyland as mediocre to bad, another reminder is there's Silver Lance potential. I guess the peoblem is determining when B Lances are going to happen.

For Radd... he might not have a choice but to go through the healbot rut. At least Vyland and Matthis it's provable that they can survive without such a crude and ridiculous set-up.

Perhaps it's me saying that I want to look more closely at how "terribad" they are as Cavaliers before I jump onto Curate -> Sniper; similair to units using Hunter -> General as a last resort (unless you're Draug).

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I'd like to point out that a 15/1 Curate -> Sniper Matthis to a 15/1 Cav -> Draco Vyland is just a bad comparison, and you should know why.

Anyway, I've never thought that Cav was an awful class for them. Much better than AK Darros, that's for sure.

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They're tiered as going pure curate right now, no promotion.

And I honestly don't believe Curate -> Sniper saves Rad since availability hurts him either way.

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I believe that Curate -> Sage/Bishop Vyland has 14 AS at 20/1. Even if you want to disregard Sniper, a promotion is not entirely out of the question.

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Right. I'm gonna ignore AS hype. The only reason this is even considered is because they contribute as healers.

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You're going to disregard 22 damage to basically everything while keeping staff utility? That's better offense than a majority of your units.

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I re-read your post. I thought you were talking about Sniper.

You only need roughly 8 Str to do 22 damage to most Cavs with a Ridersbane anyway.

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Anyone with a Sword, Axe, Bow, or Tome can't rely on that, though.

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This doesn't make Vyland stand out in any way. He can go Sage, and that's cool, but I am really going to ignore AS hype.

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FE3_Player wrote:They're tiered as going pure curate right now, no promotion.

And I honestly don't believe Curate -> Sniper saves Rad since availability hurts him either way.
If this is the case, Roshea should go up with them (assuming pure Curate).

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Only within reason, and that reason is that he doesn't go above Gordon.

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