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Saleh up

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1 Saleh up on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:08 am

I'm too lazy to retype it, so here's what I said at SF:
I'd like to bring up Saleh up yet again. First off, the person right above him is Forde. Now, I'll say Forde is level 13 (2 levels per chapter. I don't think he's higher). In his joining chapter:
Forde 13/0 Steel Lance/Javelin
HP: 29.95
DEF: 9.4
RES: 3.75
ATK: 19.8/15.8
HIT: 98/93
CRIT: 5
CEV: 9.45
AVO: 23/27
AS: 7/9

Saleh Base Elfire/Lightning
HP: 30
DEF: 8
RES: 13
ATK: 26/20
HIT: 126/136
CRIT: 9/14
CEV: 11
AVO: 35/39
AS: 12/14

Plus Saleh has C Staves. He's crushing Forde, now. Even if Forde takes an Iron Lance, Elfire!Saleh still has better AS, as well as 9 ATK plus the DEF/RES gap. Not to mention the 30 HIT gap. Iron would drop that, but still. Oh, and Saleh has a crit lead. The only way Forde could hope to win would be with a Killer Lance, but we've had that for three and a half chapters already, so it may not have many uses left. And Saleh still has 1-2 range. If Forde wants that, he has to take the javelin. Elfire!Saleh has 3 AS, 29 HIT, 4 CRIT, and 10 ATK on him. Lightning!Saleh has 5 AS, 9 CRIT, 39 HIT, and 4 ATK.

Defensively, it's 12 AVO, 1.55 CEV, and 9 RES vs. 1.4 DEF. Oh, and Saleh has 1-2 Range.

And before you shout "But where are the supports?" it takes 44 turns (or 13 turns a chapter by this point) for a B with Kyle. For Franz, it's 14 turns for C (6 per chapter), and 47 for B (19 per chapter) so at best he has C Kyle/C Franz. This adds up to a whopping 1 ATK, 10 HIT, 4 AVO, 7 CRIT, 7 CEV. So now he sometimes wins CRIT, wins CEV (And how many enemies have 24 SKL?), loses ATK by a little less, only loses hit by 20-30 instead of 30-40. Oh, and he loses avoid by a little less.

I don't have time to do more right now, but I don't see how there's a full tier gap between them.

Edit: Oh, and if he doesn't have a support with Franz yet (very possible, and I'd say probable) then his support bonuses add up to 5 HIT, 5 AVO, 2 CRIT, and 2 CEV. For chapter 11, he probably only has C Kyle, and then gets C Franz for chapter 12. Chapter 14 is when he'd hit B Kyle, and B Franz and A Kyle (maybe, it's still 9 turns per chapter. He'd probably get this for chapter 19) for chapter 18.
Saleh is Gerik's second fastest support (and the fastest is Tethys, and dancer supports are pretty shaky) and is Myrrh's fastest support as well.

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2 Re: Saleh up on Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:57 pm

Let's compare at promo time, around Ch 15. Yes, Saleh wins this just because it's the desert, but I want to look at combat anyways.

18/1 Forde B Kyle/C Franz perhaps: 15.8 Atk, 15.4 Spd----37.2 Hp, 13.4 Def, 47 Avo
5 Saleh C Gerik most likely: 16.9 Mag, 15.2 Spd----31.5 Hp, 8.9 Def, 44.6 Avo

Forde is still missing the 2HKO on Wyverns, but Killer Lance gives him a good shot to kill them regardless (~70%) and he enjoys a defensive advantage.

Then you have crappier enemies that lack Wyverns' Hp/Def, which Forde can easily ORKO and which he gets a big defense lead against thanks to his WT. For example, Steel Lance Pegs shave off about a third of Saleh's health at 50% hit, while Forde is losing only 13% of his health at ~21% hit. On average Saleh loses 16-17% of his health per round of combat, while Forde loses a mere 2-3%. Similar story against the Steel Lance Cavaliers.

Iron Blade Mercs take off 12-13% of Forde's Hp at 29% hit. Saleh once again loses about a third, this time at ~60% hit. Iron Sword Mercs do fractional damage to Forde (15 Atk + WTD vs 13.4 Def = 0.6 damage) so lol @ that. Both can kill the Iron Blade guys, but can't DA the Iron Swords, and Forde has better odds to critkill them thanks to Killer Lance.

etc

Against the promoted enemies, you get 2 Halberds and very few occasions where it's needed, so Forde can whip one of those out for a borderline OHKO on Rangers (he may or may not OHKO depending on what Hp they get). Outside of that he's still got better kill chances with his trusty Killer. Defense hasn't changed and won't, so I'll stop bringing that up.

Saleh does pull an offensive win against one of the Berserkers, being able to double and 2HKO with Elfire, but Forde maintains his defensive win (Saleh is nearly OHKO'd at ~36% hit and has ~2% odds to get critted, while Forde is looking at only ~12% hit and 0 crit) and wins offense against the other Berserker which isn't weighed down.

Neither 2HKOs Pallies so Forde wins both offense and defense.

And that's just about it.

Point is, Forde wins combat significantly post-promo. Then he's present for 5 chaps before Saleh joins and presumably contributing some positive utility during that time, considering he's high tier. From 16 (since that bastard still wins the desert) to the final is 6 chaps, so Forde wins for about 11 total, vs Saleh winning 12, 13, 14, and 15.

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3 Re: Saleh up on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:02 pm

Mekkah

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The problem with this is, it's just one point in time: Saleh's best.

Here's another point in time:

20/5 Forde (Paladin)
Killer Lance: 25.6 atk, 17.5 AS, 113.5 hit, 39.0 crit - - 48.6 avo, 42.1 hp, 13.8 def, 7.8 res, 13.6 critavo

--/10 Saleh (Sage)
Thunder: 26.4 atk, 17.2 AS, 126.8 hit, 14.8 crit - - 48.6 avo, 34.0 hp, 10.4 def, 15.8 res, 14.2 critavo

They have the same AS and avo, Saleh wins atk by 1+def/res gap, but Forde has a good deal more crit. Forde has a whopping 8hp/3-4 def lead, versus a 6-7 res lead. Saleh has staves, but Forde has 2 more movement, and probably supports to increase his own and others' parameters. Also, he has been helping the team in 5x, 8, 9, 10 and 11 until Saleh finally joined. Five chapters, which is around 50% of Saleh's total availability.

I might be able to see Eir Saleh to have a case of sorts, but what you showed definitely doesn't convince me. Eph Saleh is a no go.

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4 Re: Saleh up on Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:40 pm

I don't think he was arguing for Eph!Saleh seeing as Forde won't be lv 13/0 in chapter 15.

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5 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:06 pm

Sandbagging Saleh ftl. He's got a great support with Gerik and another one with Myrrh, as well as no reason to be using THUNDER at endgame. With supports and Fimbulvetr, he suddenly crushes Forde offensively, especially if Fore wants 1-2 range. He also has less competition for his S rank weapon. Saleh competes with Lute and MAYBE Moulder. Forde competes with Gerik, Seth, Franz, Kyle, Joshua, Tana, Vanessa, etc.

Oh, and Vykan's right. Besides, if I wanted Eph. Saleh up I probably wouldn't be comparing him to Forde in the first place.

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6 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:12 pm

Mekkah

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This is not an endgame comparison though, it's 20/5. Fimbulvetr only comes in Ch17. And it weighs him down by 5.

Saleh has less competition for his the anima S rank, but Forde has three types to pick from. Ivaldi is easier for Saleh, but that is only usable for 2 chapters.

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7 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:23 pm

I guess my post was ignored.

GK is easier for purposes of comparison IMO, as the worth of a move lead is tough to measure. If Pallie is better, then you can start with GK and see how close they are before determining if Paladin's move could make a difference in the outcome.

Hyping Fimbulvetr is pretty funny. That has 12 Wt and Saleh already has mediocre Spd. Equipping Fimbulvetr prevents him from doubling any promoted enemies in Ch 19 except Generals and maybe Druids (and he loses offense against the latter anyways for obvious reasons), and it actually allows him to get doubled by the faster enemies. To put this in perspective, Saleh + Fimbulvetr has approximately the same Spd as General Gilliam.

As for supports, lol, Myrrh. You might see a C sometime during 19 or 20 for +1 Atk. And that's assuming Myrrh gets fielded constantly after her uber-late jointime (especially dubious for Ch 18). whocares

Gerik B probably happens about as late, and the C bonuses are nearly nothing, so once again, whocares

By Ch 19/20 Forde can have A Kyle/B Franz, or atleast A/C or B/B, so throwing in supports is definitely going to just help him out.

Excalibur is a good point, though I wonder what enemies that would give Saleh a real offensive advantage against. Obviously Ch 20 + Final but both of those are jokes anyway, especially 20. In Ch 19, Warriors maybe? Hammer is buyable for GKs and Gens. I get the feeling that Forde's crit, speed and defense give him the win regardless. His crit with the Killer Lance goes up to around ~60 with something like B Kyle/B Franz, giving him ~80% odds to kill something on a double even if he can't 2HKO. To some extent this trivializes any offensive advantage Saleh might pull as compared to Forde's defense (Saleh doesn't have any special equipment to make his defense almost as good as Forde's).

Speaking of 1-2 range, Forde's defense easily outweighs that, I'm thinking. See the comparison I did above about their durability, and Forde gains more supports + has higher defensive growths, so that gap should have just increased by Ch 19.

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8 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:37 pm

Pally can't use axes Razz
Fimbulvetr Saleh has the same AS as Gilliam... at 20/14. Yeah, that's HORRIBLE AS. And then there's Elfire, Shine, Aura, and the likes. And as for Myrrh, I don't know why you're assuming it's so slow. Because of her limited attacks and super fast EXP gain, she will have more turns where she can just sit next to Saleh to build their support. And then you're only letting him sit next to Gerik ~5 turns a chapter, and yet you have no problem with Kyle having 6-7 (or so it appears)

And then there's chapter 15, as well. I don't think I need to go in depth there.

I don't necessarily mean Saleh>Forde, but I don't see a whole tier gap difference with Saleh never really losing offense by enough to offset his huge wins earlier. And you're STILL ignoring his staves. C staves in chapter 11 means that he's easily getting physics.


I guess what it comes down to is 11-15 wins vs. 16-endgame wins + 8,9, and 10. Except some of those 16-E wins are dubious (offense wins, mainly) and Forde's nothing special in 8,9, and 10.

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9 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:57 pm

Mekkah

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You should have been more clear then...it seemed like you were trying to move Saleh above Forde, not closing the tier gap between them. Dunno what to think of that...tier gaps are small in this game due to small cast and relatively strong PCs to weak enemies.

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10 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:59 pm

@Mekkah: I think he was pretty clear in his opening post.

I don't have time to do more right now, but I don't see how there's a full tier gap between them.

Razz

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11 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:07 pm

Mekkah

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Oh, I missed that.

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12 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:27 pm

Fimbulvetr Saleh has the same AS as Gilliam... at 20/14. Yeah, that's HORRIBLE AS. And then there's Elfire, Shine, Aura, and the likes.

No, 10 Fimbulvetr Saleh has the same AS as 20/10 General Gilliam. Well, technically Gilliam wins by 0.3. 13.5 vs (17.2 - 4). And yes, that's horrible AS. Maybe you've forgotten who Gilliam is.

Shine has less Mt than Thunder, and Aura is even heavier than Fimbulvetr while also being weaker, so I don't know why you bothered to mention those.

And as for Myrrh, I don't know why you're assuming it's so slow. Because of her limited attacks and super fast EXP gain, she will have more turns where she can just sit next to Saleh to build their support. And then you're only letting him sit next to Gerik ~5 turns a chapter, and yet you have no problem with Kyle having 6-7 (or so it appears)

What do limited attacks and super fast Exp gain have to do with support speed?

To reach a C before Ch 19, i.e. during 18 (where it's largely pointless to bring Myrrh anyways due to low move), Saleh x Myrrh needs to build at about 7 turns per chapter. And again, Myrrh's use in the first place would need to be justified. Lower Mid.

Gerik x Saleh B during Ch 19 is ~5.4 turns per chapter. Forde x Kyle A by the same time is ~5.68. Meh.

I don't necessarily mean Saleh>Forde, but I don't see a whole tier gap difference with Saleh never really losing offense by enough to offset his huge wins earlier. And you're STILL ignoring his staves. C staves in chapter 11 means that he's easily getting physics.

Forde's additional 5 chapters of availability (you left out 5x, particularly notable since you only have 4 units period in that chap) outweigh or are at least equal to Saleh's staves. Also, Saleh joins at the start of Ch 12, not 11.

I guess what it comes down to is 11-15 wins vs. 16-endgame wins + 8,9, and 10. Except some of those 16-E wins are dubious (offense wins, mainly) and Forde's nothing special in 8,9, and 10

Forde's high tier. If he's nothing special during his pre-Saleh chapters, then perhaps we should be moving Forde down rather than Saleh up.

Ofcourse that goes right back to the issue of creating a tier gap between Forde and Kyle, which I've never agreed with and probably still wouldn't. So I favor the current positions.

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13 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:34 pm

Somehow I got 17.7-4...

Didn't realize light tomes sucked that much. Wow.

I need to double check things more often >->

Yeah, I really do need to. Although he's only there for half of 8.

By "nothing special" I meant that he's not doing amazingly. Not mediocre, but he's not doing anything super amazing.

And when did I suggest a tier gap between Kyle and Forde? I suggested Saleh in High Tier and possibly > Forde.

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14 Re: Saleh up on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:43 pm

I suggested myself that moving Forde down might be better than moving Saleh up, but I don't really agree with moving either one of them either way, so w/e.

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15 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:34 am

Mekkah

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Although he's only there for half of 8.

Ch8 finishes on turn 4 now? Because Forde joins on turn 2.

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16 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:37 am

Well I've always cleared ~1/2 the enemies I will by the time they really do much. Oh, and don't they join on turn 3? Because I've never had him there on the second turn. Anyways, in between the first two turns and enemy phase, I've cleared out everyone on the way to their group, and then I usually send a few people up north, so Forde never has more than 1/2 the map to do things on.

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17 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:49 am

Mekkah

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He joins on the start of turn 2, according to Serenes. He and Kyle also start closest to a bunch of left side enemies (the majority of the chapter's enemies, in fact). If anything, they'll see more action than someone like Lute.

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18 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:15 pm

I tend to agree with Mekkah about that. 5x and the left side of 8 are exp pools exclusive to Kyle/Forde/Ephraim, so they usually reach a higher level than most of my other party members by C9 (Lute/Artur/Vanessa/Moulder/etc).

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19 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:54 pm

Well, unless my ROM was messed with, he joins at the start of turn 3. Or if I don't remember correctly >_>

And how is their side exclusive to them? I have no trouble getting Seth and Franz down there to meet them by the time they show up, and my foot units are close behind. Unless you guys have your other units all head north. I've never had them gain more than 3 levels tops in those chapter combined.

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20 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:57 pm

North is a much quicker path to the throne unless you can't handle the enemies along the way (which would be pretty lulzy). Sending people west is just asking for them to get stranded with nothing to do for most of the map.

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21 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:32 pm

I usually go west for EXP(I like to route). And if we're all going north, then I question how much Forde gets to do.

Anyways, how exactly do people feel about Saleh in High, just below Forde? I mean, Saleh crushes him early on (10-20 [or maybe even more] more damage per round is a big offense lead) and keeps his offense up the entire game, and always wins if Forde wants 1-2 range. He's also got staves (Again, base C staves) and an awesome chapter 15 lead. Compared with Forde's availability and durability?

Oh, and something that I never responded to: I'd say that Myrrh is likely to be used. She's amazing for her few attacks. If this list only measured how likely people are to be deployed, then she'd probably be much higher. She's incredibly powerful while she's there. Her position (I feel) is mostly because she's limited in how much she can attack. She's sorta like the BK.

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22 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:40 pm

It's important to gauge the importance of Saleh's offensive lead. Doing 10 more damage per atk is cool, but if Forde ORKOes the same enemies regardless, then Saleh's advantage is completely meaningless. Same thing goes for Forde's durability advantage of course, but I think it's more self evident that neither character is overkill in that department.

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23 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:57 pm

Well, I don't recall Forde consistently ORKOing there (maybe even an occasional 3RKO) but we don't really have enemy stats so....

Also, I'd say that durability isn't a huge issue. Looking at CAT5's comparison, while Forde is winning by a lot, Saleh's still often looking at 5-6RKOS after factoring hit in. I mean, Saleh's not having trouble surviving, and always doing well offensively.

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24 Re: Saleh up on Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:48 pm

I guess it's time to go into detail......

Mekkah's levels for lategame as compared to the levels in the original post have Forde gaining 11 levels in the same time that Saleh gains 8. That means Forde is only getting 1.375 levels for every 1 that Saleh gets, which seems low even with healing considered. I'm just gonna add one to Forde, so that he grows 1.5 times the rate that Saleh does over that time period.

20/6 Forde B Franz/B Kyle: 19.6 Atk, 18.55 Spd----43.15 Hp, 15.8 Def, 55.75 Avo
10 Saleh C Gerik I guess: 18.4 Mag, 17.2 Spd----34 Hp, 10.4 Def, 50.6 Avo

Looking at Ch 19. Let's start with offense.

Generals: Hammertime is an easy ORKO. Saleh on the other hand is sketchy even with Fimbulvetr. He gets most of them on average, but still misses the tougher ones. If his Mag goes below average by a point, he's now missing the ORKO on most of them, even with Fimbulvetr.

Swordmasters: Neither one is doubling. Forde has ~53% crit w/ Killer Lance, Saleh manages about 20 with Divine or Thunder.

GKs: Hammertime/Halberd once again provide quick, dirty ORKOs. These guys have less Hp/Res than Generals, but they also have enough Spd that Saleh can't double w/ Fimbulvetr. Elfire is missing the 2HKO on most of them.

Heroes: Swordslayer can OHKO some of these if Forde can get his hands on it. Meanwhile, Forde's better at doubling and critting, and generally neither 2HKOs (if Saleh manages a double, it'll only be if he's totally unencumbered, so he's stuck with Thunder's 8 Mt), so Forde wins.

Warriors: Saleh can't double with Fimbulvetr and misses the 2HKO with Elfire against most of them. Admittedly there are some that Saleh can 2HKO on average, but I'm only counting 3 out of 17. When Saleh can't 2HKO, it's his ~36% chance to crit with Thunder vs Forde's ~80% chance to crit with a Killer. So against 3 of the 17, it's Saleh's 100% vs Forde's 80%, and against the other 14, it's Saleh's 36% vs Forde's 80%. I give the win to Forde.

Snipers: Both 2HKO with Killer/Elfire respectively, however Saleh's sketchy on doubling with Elfire. Most have 11 Spd, so if Saleh's 1 point under average, he starts failing to double. And Thunder can't reliably 2HKO. Forde wins.

Mage Knights: obvious win for forde

Rangers: Halberd OHKOs all of them. Forde can also double lower end ones if he gets lucky and manages 20 Spd, about a 1/3 chance. And if both of those fail, his crit is still better, even with 1-2 range (29-30 crit w/ Javelin vs Saleh's 25 w/ Thunder).

Paladins: Forde is bad at 2HKOing these, but so is Saleh, and again Forde has crit + Halberd access.

---

So......looks like Forde wins offense against every enemy in the chapter. It looks like Saleh needs Excalibur just to try and keep up with Forde's offense, never mind actually surpassing him.

As for Forde's defense being superfluous, here's a list of enemy types that generally 2HKO Saleh:

Generals
Great Knights
Heroes
Warriors
Snipers
Rangers
Paladins

Looks like, well, all the promoted physical enemies in the chapter except for Swordmasters. But the cool thing about Swordmasters is, they have crit on Saleh, i.e. they can one-shot him, so it's pretty much never safe to expose him to those. And he can only take one shot from the other stuff.

Sadly, I lost my enemy stats for midgame, and won't get them back for about a week and a half. But this demonstrates how they're doing lategame, atleast.

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25 Re: Saleh up on Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:05 am

A: You ignored the fact that Saleh could easily get both C Myrrh and B Gerik in that chapter.

B: What about the Body Ring? I mean, +2 speed on heavier tomes would do a LOT for Saleh. Is there anybody else who's really good competition?

So, if both of those go, then you can add +2 speed to Saleh for Elfire/Fimbulvetr nad +2 attack to all of them. For example, he just misses the 2HKO on most of the warriors, right? Well, now it's a guaranteed KO against all of them vs. Forde's 80%. Saleh seems to be very close on lots of these enemies, and with those, he suddenly has very consistent offense.

One more thing: Killer Lance, Hammer, Swordreaver, Halberd, Swordslayer... Hey, look, his entire inventory is filled with expensive, brittle, rare items. I don't know if that matters this late in the game, but...


And for durability, I'd like to point out that I said "after factoring in hit." Even that Warrior that one-shots him is just as likely to miss 5 times as he is to hit once. And as for crit, he gets +15 CEV from supports.

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26 Re: Saleh up on Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:06 pm

B: What about the Body Ring? I mean, +2 speed on heavier tomes would do a LOT for Saleh. Is there anybody else who's really good competition?

Characters in the game with low con: Eirika, Vanessa, Ross (he does lose some AS with non-iron/killer axes), Neimi, Colm, Artur, Lute, Natasha, Tana, Amelia, Marisa, L'Arachel, Ewan. Moreover, even higher con characters can get weighed down by things like steel axes.

One more thing: Killer Lance, Hammer, Swordreaver, Halberd, Swordslayer... Hey, look, his entire inventory is filled with expensive, brittle, rare items. I don't know if that matters this late in the game, but...

Killer lances and hammers are buyable. The swordreaver and swordslayer are also buyable in the C19 secret shop. The price hardly matters because of the influx of cash + the silver card.

And for durability, I'd like to point out that I said "after factoring in hit." Even that Warrior that one-shots him is just as likely to miss 5 times as he is to hit once. And as for crit, he gets +15 CEV from supports.

Death is the ultimate consequence for a character so even low chances are given a lot of weight against someone's performance.

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27 Re: Saleh up on Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:43 pm

L'arachel, Ewan, Amelia, Marisa: Rofl. Ross, Tana, and Neimi are also lower tiers. Lute's offense is overkill enough, so I don't know if she'd get as much as he would. IDK about Artur or Natasha. Vanessa has some awesome speed as well as WTF +5 attack, so I don't know if she'd be bothered by using anything she'd need to use to consistently ORKO or at least have great chances with killers. And then there's Eirika... 20/4 Eirika has 22 AS with a silver sword, so I don't think she's having problems.

Although I guess we can't just dismiss people because they're lower tiers, but we can assume that they'll be out of play pretty often, and then I don't know if anyone sees the offense boost Saleh does. I mean, going from ORKOing a few enemies to most of them? That's a big boost.


Kinda figured that, oh well.


Did I mention that he ORKOs him, so he doesn't even have to be at risk? Oh, and as it turns out, Saleh is ALMOST OHKOd at 36 displayed hit. Drops a little with supports, too. So, there's only a 6% chance of Saleh being killed in two rounds, and Saleh ORKOs him.

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28 Re: Saleh up on Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:06 am

A: You ignored the fact that Saleh could easily get both C Myrrh and B Gerik in that chapter.

Myrrh shouldn't be deployed in Ch 18. 5 move + 1 range in a chapter where mobility is atleast as important as combat stats, if not moreso. The Eggs are pathetic and don't fight back, so Myrrh attacking them is a waste of her Dragonstone, and they give a solid 50 Exp to anyone regardless of the Exp formula, so it's not even a significant benefit to bring her along and try to feed her kills (not that she will be getting many kills her with her 6 attack range). It's perfectly arguable that Syrene is a better unit to bring in this chapter than Myrrh.

With that in mind, hitting C Myrrh during Ch 19 is about 7 turns per chapter. With that rate of supporting, Forde can get A Franz or Kyle in Ch 19, so there's little if any net benefit to Saleh's case anyways.

I'll grant that B Gerik could happen. SMs still have crit on him, other than that, +1 Atk/Def, +3 Avo and +5 Crit. If you feel that it turns the tides, go ahead and argue that.

B: What about the Body Ring? I mean, +2 speed on heavier tomes would do a LOT for Saleh. Is there anybody else who's really good competition?

The one Body Ring from Ch 13/14, you mean (IIRC there's only one)? Lots of units can make use of that, the examples being fairly obvious, for example Forde himself can take it to lose less AS from Steel and none from Javelin pre-promo, then go Paladin and have enough Con to use Steel while still enjoying the 8 move. Natasha loses AS/Avo from all her tomes so that's obvious. Ditto with Vanessa, who can go with Falcoknight + Body Ring for another best-of-both-worlds combo. Colm and Joshua lose Avo from Steel forever, and they lose Spd + more Avo from Blades. etc

One more thing: Killer Lance, Hammer, Swordreaver, Halberd, Swordslayer... Hey, look, his entire inventory is filled with expensive, brittle, rare items. I don't know if that matters this late in the game, but...

Javelin/Hand Axe + Halberd/Hammer + 3 Killers

Mix and match as necessary, i.e. if you want both Halberd and Hammer, you can kick out the Killer Axe, or etc

More likely you just start off with Hammer, and after killing the Generals at the start, drop the Hammer back into the convoy and withdraw the Halberd.

As for the cost, by Ch 19, it should be no issue. Killers are buyable with the Silver Card in tow during Ch 17 iirc. And Hammer isn't even expensive to begin with.

And for durability, I'd like to point out that I said "after factoring in hit." Even that Warrior that one-shots him is just as likely to miss 5 times as he is to hit once. And as for crit, he gets +15 CEV from supports.

With B Gerik the average Silver Axe Warrior has ~36% chance to hit Saleh. Not "just as likely to miss 5 times as he is to hit once." More like he'll miss only twice for every time he hits. And that's the least accurate enemy in the chapter, while the others are all still consistently 2HKOing Saleh (or 3HKOing w/ Crit in the case of SMs). Snipers, for example, have about 58% chance to hit and average enough Atk to 2HKO. C Myrrh adds no Def or Avo (Wind x Wind iirc), so that won't change these figures, either.

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29 Re: Saleh up on Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:56 pm

Myrrh's great for killing Gorgons. I don't know why you WOULDN'T bring her there.

Why does Forde want steel when he has silvers and killers by promotion? Using the Ring on him would be a waste. And again, is anyone going to get as huge a boost as Saleh? I don't care if other people get something out of it, I care if they get more than Saleh.

Kinda figured that about the inventory. It just seemed weird to not have any basic weaponry in it. Although in this game, you can afford to use very specialized equipment.

36 displayed hit? Because if so, it's ~25 real, and there's about a 25% chance of him missing 5 times in a row in that situation. And I wonder how much crit those SMs have on him with his 30 CEV. And again, he can ORKO most enemies enemies if he gets his supports and/or the Body Ring, so if anyone's an issue, he can easily take them out on player phase without taking a counter. If Forde wants to do that, he has to go to a short spear/javelin, in which case he loses combat by a lot.

And there's STILL staves which you've failed to say anything about. Warp, Physic, Rescue, etc.

Oh, and earlier in the game. Doing 20 more damage per round with similar durability plus 1-2 range and C staves is a huge lead.

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30 Re: Saleh up on Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:36 pm

Myrrh's great for killing Gorgons. I don't know why you WOULDN'T bring her there.

I just outlined exactly why you wouldn't bring her. Killing Eggs prevents more Gorgons from appearing, Myrrh sucks at killing Eggs, and there's 24 Eggs vs 3 Gorgons initially on the map. The few Gorgons that are already out aren't difficult to kill in the first place, pretty much anyone with a Sacred Twin (which you have 7 of by this point) can OHKO them, and meanwhile Myrrh's crap Avo makes her a prime target for Stone.

Why does Forde want steel when he has silvers and killers by promotion?

Silvers aren't buyable until after Ch 19. If you want to give him a Silver anyways, be my guest, there goes the rest of Saleh's case. Killers aren't buyable w/ the Silver Card until Ch 17, so conserving uses of them is still useful until then, and this Body Ring is available during Ch 13, so Forde will have its effects for a couple chapters before promotion aswell.

Using the Ring on him would be a waste. And again, is anyone going to get as huge a boost as Saleh? I don't care if other people get something out of it, I care if they get more than Saleh.

20/10 Natasha has 19 Spd w/ Lightning, 17 w/ Shine, and 13 w/ Divine. Add a Body Ring and those figures increase to 20, 19 and 15 respectively. Here's a list of some of the ways in which that changes her performance in Ch 19:

SMs: Can now counter w/ Divine without getting doubled by most of them.

GKs: Can now double w/ Divine.

Heroes: Can now double some of them w/ Shine, or double all of them w/ Lightning.

Warriors: Can now double w/ Divine.

Snipers: Same as above.

Mage Knights: Can now double these w/ Shine.

Rangers: Can now double some of these w/ Lightning, or counter w/ Divine without getting doubled.

And Natasha gains more Avo than Saleh since she has no max-AS options before a Body Ring.

36 displayed hit?

No, 36 after applying 2 RNs.

And I wonder how much crit those SMs have on him with his 30 CEV.

SMs can get up to 25 crit, and 10 Saleh + B Gerik only manages 24 CEV. He's barely facing any crit, but any crit at all is a significant weakness, as the SMs are quite accurate with their high Skl + Silver Swords and Saleh gets OHKO'd if a crit goes off.

And again, he can ORKO most enemies enemies if he gets his supports and/or the Body Ring, so if anyone's an issue, he can easily take them out on player phase without taking a counter.

Yes, if he gets more resources. Forde can increase his one-rounding figures aswell if we, for example, give him the Ch 15 Silver Lance or Vidofnir and slap on A Franz for another point of Atk.

If Forde wants to do that, he has to go to a short spear/javelin, in which case he loses combat by a lot.

Avoiding counters doesn't make up for the gap in durability.

20/6 Forde B Franz/B Kyle: 43.15 Hp, 15.8 Def, 55.75 Avo
10 Saleh B Gerik: 34 Hp, 11.4 Def, 53.6 Avo

On average Forde loses 5% of his health from taking a Silver Axe Warrior's attack. Loses ~42% of his health on a hit and has about ~12% chance to get hit. Saleh faces a 36% hitrate and loses 69-70% of his health if he's hit, losing on average 25% of his health per round. Saleh's losing health 5 times faster than Forde is.

Let's take another example, the SMs. While Saleh has that whole I-might-face-a-critrate thing going on, Forde only loses about 19% of his health from a hit and only loses 9-10% of his health per round. On average he dies to Swordmaster # 10 or 11, while Saleh often isn't safe facing them in the first place, and even if he were, he would be dying to Swordmaster #3 or 4, surviving less than half as many rounds as Forde does. Saleh can avoid a counter on 5 consecutive player phases with Forde taking one every time, and Forde would still survive longer if you then started exposing them to the SMs on enemy phase.

And there's STILL staves which you've failed to say anything about. Warp, Physic, Rescue, etc.

Forde's additional 5 chapters of availability (you left out 5x, particularly notable since you only have 4 units period in that chap) outweigh or are at least equal to Saleh's staves.

Oh, and earlier in the game. Doing 20 more damage per round with similar durability plus 1-2 range and C staves is a huge lead.

My laptop with midgame enemy stats on it inconveniently died, so I can't provide detailed comparisons for midgame atm, but I should get around to it in a week or so when it's fixed.

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31 Re: Saleh up on Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:18 am

IMO an important factor in this comparison is whether Forde has a bigger combat lead lategame than Saleh has on him at jointime. And so I think it's necessary to show how Forde is doing in combat compared to enemies in C12-14.

First off, 13/0 is way too low for C12. He starts at level 6, and chapters 5x and 8 are easily 2 levels each for him. That means 9,10 and 11 give him a combined 3 levels, which is absurd considering 2/3 of those are high enemy density rout maps that put emphasis on his mount advantage. I had him at 15/1 on C11 Ephraim, so 15/0 seems reasonable for C12 Eirika.

Offensively, he has 10.6-12.6 str/12 spd/9 con. His weapon of choice will probably be the steel lance, which gives him 20.6-22.6 atk/9 AS.

He lacks damage against baels, entombed (mini-boss) and maelduin (boss) and lacks doubling against ironlance!gargoyles and mauthe dogs, the latter of which Saleh can't double himself. So basically, Saleh wins RKOes against 2.5 enemy types and has 1-2 range on him. With an early promotion, Saleh's win decreases to 1-2 range only, and that's only applicable if Forde can't ORKO himself using a jav/hand axe.

I'll get the enemy stats for 13-14 later.

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32 Re: Saleh up on Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:59 am

Well, I guess that Forde doesn't have the choice of using such specialized weaponry so soon, is he? I guess Saleh's offense lead might have just extended.

Is Natasha getting as big of an offense boost as Saleh is, though? Especially since she's at 20/10. At least in this game, healers are NOT overleveled compared to your other units.

36 AFTER? Darn. Oh well, that still doesn't change the fact that supports get rid of crit and he ORKOs the Zerker, anyways.

He has 24.6 CEV with B Gerik. If we give him C Myrrh, he's guaranteed to face 0 crit, and without it he still could.

Are you saying that being 4-5RKOd is bad? Because last I played this game, no one was getting attacked 5 times a turn unless they were a wall like Gilliam who I was intentionally using as a wall.

I'd still call it 4 1/2, but w/e. Oh, and chapter 15 would cut a chapter out of that (unless you want to argue that Forde'll do much in chapter 15...)



Yeah, I was thinking Saleh joined in 11 and was going by my standard of Forde not getting much experience in chapter 8. 15/0 sounds reasonable. Still higher than what I usually get him to (13-14), but I'm not gonna say I'm the best FE player out there, so...

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33 Re: Saleh up on Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:32 pm

Is Natasha getting as big of an offense boost as Saleh is, though? Especially since she's at 20/10. At least in this game, healers are NOT overleveled compared to your other units.

She's getting increased damage against every enemy type I named, which is to say, over half the chapter's enemies, and she gains more Avo than Saleh does. That alone creates a big enough opportunity cost that giving Saleh the Ring has a negligible economic profit.

He has 24.6 CEV with B Gerik. If we give him C Myrrh, he's guaranteed to face 0 crit, and without it he still could.

You're looking at his L11 stats. At L10 his average Luck is 14.2, and he still has a 1/3 chance to have 13 Luck or less.

Not going to bother reposting the reasons that you shouldn't assume C Myrrh.

Are you saying that being 4-5RKOd is bad? Because last I played this game, no one was getting attacked 5 times a turn unless they were a wall like Gilliam who I was intentionally using as a wall.

He's getting 2HKO'd, not 4-5RKO'd. With hitrates factored in he lives 3-4 rounds on average, but that doesn't mean you can expose him to 3 or 4 enemies. Rather, if you expose him to just 2, he already has a chance of death. He can only safely counter one enemy on any given turn.

And yes, by this point in the game, that's bad. Go compare to the durability of other high/top tiers. More importantly it's much, much worse than Forde is doing.

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34 Re: Saleh up on Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:48 pm

Ehh, I see the tier gap now.

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