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Bord ftw

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1 Bord ftw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:08 pm

Now that Darros is high tier he makes a convenient point of reference for other potential Armor Knights.

Bord joins a level lower than Darros which should close by reclass time or shortly after, so let's look at the effective differences in their bases.

Bord: +2.55 Str, +1.1 Def
Darros: +2.1 Hp, +0.9 Spd

Spd is lol since both are getting doubled to hell and back forever after reclass, and Def > Hp for units that take so many hits to die, so Bord ftw.

Darros's win comes in growths. Hp growth is the same, so the Hp lead stays forever. Darros has 5% higher Str, which is never enough for him to close the Str gap (they'd need to gain 51 levels before Darros would entirely close the gap), and then he has the big one, 20% higher Def. However, it takes 5-6 levels before Darros ties Bord in Def on account of that higher base, and another 5 levels before he develops even a solid one point lead.

By the time this happens they should be around L13-14 so they're getting close to promotion anyways, and once promotion happens they're both close enough to invincible (rofl @ Knight -> General promo gains, +10 Hp/+4 Def) that Darros's Def lead becomes largely irrelevant.

Meanwhile, Bord has that small Str lead going on, and more importantly, throws out supports to Ogma/Cord/Barst.

They should be in the same tier at worst, and I think Bord has a case for going over Darros (supporting 3 top/high tiers all of whom appreciate the Avo? yes plz).

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2 Re: Bord ftw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:16 pm

I thought about the support thing being able to put Bord > Darros since Bord is not far behind in Darros's durability in the first place. Otherwise definitely agree Bord should be directly under Darros (and none of this tier difference either).

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3 Re: Bord ftw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:29 pm

I'm not really keen on throwing a bunch of Armor Knights into High tier. I likely should have thrown Oguma into Upper Mid instead whenever the Darros vs. Oguma thing happened.

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4 Re: Bord ftw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:33 pm

I agree with Ogma in Upper Mid. I see him pretty similar to Wendell: Great earlygame, but then slowly starts to falter.

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5 Re: Bord ftw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:44 pm

FE3_Player wrote:I'm not really keen on throwing a bunch of Armor Knights into High tier. I likely should have thrown Oguma into Upper Mid instead whenever the Darros vs. Oguma thing happened.
I'm assuming Bord > Oguma as well, or are there objections on that one?

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6 Re: Bord ftw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:50 pm

Colonel M wrote:
FE3_Player wrote:I'm not really keen on throwing a bunch of Armor Knights into High tier. I likely should have thrown Oguma into Upper Mid instead whenever the Darros vs. Oguma thing happened.
I'm assuming Bord > Oguma as well, or are there objections on that one?
Yes, I do object to this. Not only does Oguma have more utility, but he's able to play most classes just as well, if not better in some cases.

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7 Re: Bord ftw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:59 pm

Playing more classes well is irrelevant. Maybe Ogma would be a better Dark Mage or w/e, but what matters is the classes they do best as.

We're not throwing "a bunch" of Armor Knights into high tier. So far there's a whopping 2 assuming Bord in High (which he should be).

If Darros > Ogma, I'd argue the same for Bord considering how similar he is to Darros.

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8 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:00 am

I think what FE3 Player means is that he doesn't think Oguma < Darros.

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9 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:09 am

Colonel M wrote:I think what FE3 Player means is that he doesn't think Oguma < Darros.
No, I mean I do not think Bord > Oguma in anyway.

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10 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 am

FE3_Player wrote:
Colonel M wrote:I think what FE3 Player means is that he doesn't think Oguma < Darros.
No, I mean I do not think Bord > Oguma in anyway.
I don't quite understand this really. If we're agreeing to Darros > Oguma and Bord is actually eerily close to Darros's level anyway, wouldn't that still stand against Oguma?

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11 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:19 am

No, because I'm not seeing any possible way Bord is better comparing them in the same class (I am also looking at multiple classes, which is something most of this board doesn't do), and we already know Oguma whens while forced and in utility.

I'm seeing Darros > Oguma > Bord.

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12 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:35 am

What? Applying the same line of thinking to Darros results in Ogma beating him too, though your suggestions seem to make no sense, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. But from what I can see, comparing them in the same class or in multiple classes means nothing whatsoever. I'm willing to bet that Cain makes a better Archer, Cav and Myrmidon than Merric, as opposed to Merric only winning when they both go Mage, thus Cain should be ranked higher for playing better as more classes, no?

And Ogma beats Darros while forced aswell. Indeed this was the first thing said in the Darros > Ogma topic.

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13 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:42 am

But from what I can see, comparing them in the same class or in multiple classes means nothing whatsoever.
It does when Oguma is matching Bord in the class that Bord is rising because of.

Look at the bases as both in Armor Knight. They're both getting doubled forever, and Bord's 1 Def base lead is matched by Oguma's 6 HP lead. The only criteria Bord is winning at is 1 Str lead (which never exceeds a 1 Str lead), and Skill.

Then we look at whatever class Bord can fall on to try and win over Oguma, but has none.

And I am not attempting to apply my line of thinking to Darros. I already conceded Darros > Oguma, but I am not seeing Bord winning over Oguma in this manner.

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14 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:44 am

Good point. I repeat, though, that Bord and Darros are very similar and that if Ogma beats or loses to one, it should be the same way against the other. If Armor Ogma > Bord, then it should beat Darros aswell (and indeed, AK Ogma gets similar stats + supports + earlygame utility).

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15 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:53 am

Whether or not Oguma wins AK!Darros is not as clear cut, especially because Darros' 15% Higher Def growth allows him to get out of a crappy period faster.

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16 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:35 am

Okay, just out of curiosity I'm going to pull Bord and Oguma's 15/1 stats:

15/1 Oguma - 43.9 HP | 13.9 Str | 9.9 Skl | 7.3 Spd | 7.4 Luck | 20.7 Def | 3.0 Res

15/1 Bord - 37.3 HP | 15.1 Str | 12.5 Skl | 4.1 Spd | 5.6 Luck | 21.9 Def | 3.0 Res

15/1 Darros - (Too lazy to construct) 40 HP | 5 AS | 23 Def

Uh guys have you missed something COMPLETELY wrong with this? Oguma isn't doubled by Cavs buddy boys, which are usually the highest Atk enemies on the map barring promoted units. C12's are Heimler, the General, and a Sniper so the only difference might be Heimler. C12X has a Sniper but lolgaiden. C14 has no promoted units except a Sniper (shocker) and the time many of them arrive again is C16.

Halp, I see Oguma > Darros.

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17 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:05 am

bblader1> During Ogma's early stages as armor he really does suck
<Mekkah> L10
<Colonel_M> hahahaha
<Colonel_M> He ain't that pro
<Mekkah> [15:52:51] <bblader1> During Ogma's early stages as armor he really does suck
<Colonel_M> I know BB
<bblader1> He's still getting doubled and he doesn't have the def Daros/Bord do to block out damage
<Mekkah> so do darros and bord...
<bblader1> yes
<bblader1> They get out of that suck
<Mekkah> i dont think darros and bord have significantly more base def than ogma lol
<bblader1> Ogma has to deal with it....pretty much until promotion
<bblader1> no
<bblader1> they have much higher growth
<FE3_Player> I just proved that Bord does not average higher durability than Oguma.
<FE3_Player> Darros may be a different story though, so go wild with that one.
<Colonel_M> Well technically Bord has 2 more Def than Oguma by promotion
<Colonel_M> 15/1 Oguma - 43.9 HP | 13.9 Str | 9.9 Skl | 7.3 Spd | 7.4 Luck | 20.7 Def | 3.0 Res
<Colonel_M> 15/1 Bord - 37.3 HP | 15.1 Str | 12.5 Skl | 4.1 Spd | 5.6 Luck | 21.9 Def | 3.0 Res
<Colonel_M> But also realize something else
<Colonel_M> Ogma's Spd
<bblader1> hm
<bblader1> I retract that, Daros isn't winning def as much as I thought
<bblader1> still
<bblader1> What difference does Ogma's spd make
<Colonel_M> He isn't doubled
<Colonel_M> By Cavs / Archers
<bblader1> it goes from not doubling anything to not doubling anything
<Colonel_M> Archers isn't much of a deal
<bblader1> And nobody cares since Daros is tinked by those two anywya
<Colonel_M> Darros isn't tinked by Cavs buddy boy
<FE3_Player> See guys, this is why I said I wasn't going to throw a bunch of Armor Knights into High Tier.
<Mekkah> darros doesnt start tinking until promo
<Colonel_M> He has 23 Def, Cavs have about 26
<Colonel_M> Atk
<Mekkah> and then some
<bblader1> we're talking about 15/1 here
<bblader1> onoes a 9RKO?
<Colonel_M> To be honest I still hate AK -> General almost as much as I hate Cleric -> Sniper or Archer -> Sniper
<Colonel_M> Now figure out Oguma
<FE3_Player> Going from never dying to never dying.
<Mekkah> to be completely blunt
<Mekkah> if a unit is an armor knight for 15 levels
<Mekkah> i dont think he even has the makings of high anymroe
<FE3_Player> I agree.
<Mekkah> armor knight is horrible
<bblader1> I just also want to point out that Armors REALLY blow in C9 no matter what level they are
<Mekkah> i can only think of one earlygame chapter where id want to be one
<Mekkah> and that's ch8
<Colonel_M> Even then
<Mekkah> (sword cavs)
<bblader1> Pirates break the AK def cap no matter what, and some of the reinforcements even have hammers
<Mekkah> why hello there mr devil axe
<bblader1> y hello there mr. I have 31% chance to kill myself instead of you
<FE3_Player> So does everyone agree I should drop Darros & Oguma into Upper Mid?
<Colonel_M> Devil Axe Pirate: almost as strong as Endgame enemies
<Colonel_M> Atk-wise
<Colonel_M> In this case, yes
<Colonel_M> Putting some AK in High tier sounds dumb when almost anyone can pull the crap off
<bblader1> I dont object to Ogma in Upper Mid
<bblader1> At all
<FE3_Player> Well, of course not, you've always wanted Oguma in that tier since forever.
<Mekkah> if theyre going armor knight, yeah...though i think merc->hunter->general oguma might work out
<bblader1> People really do underestimate how bad his lategame is
<Mekkah> bad lategame is still better than bad earlygame though! (hello darros)
<Mekkah> xD
<bblader1> meh, maybe Ogma does>Daros then
<bblader1> dun really care so long as Ogma goes down to UpMid
<FE3_Player> It'll be Oguma > Daros > Bord in Upper Mid.

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18 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:26 am

Mekkah

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I'm still not 100% final on Ogma > Darros, or Ogma > Bord, however, as I said on IRC, Ogma can just go Hunter -> General (vary with Merc where applicable). imo a Hunter is pretty much always better than a Knight, until Knight comes close to invincibility. 4 mov is so much worse than 6 mov and E lances is so much worse than E bows...I would go as far as to say anything that has to spend time as an Armor Knight cannot be High tier at all.

Merc/Hunter -> General Ogma ends up with about 11 AS at 20/1, more like 10 at 15/1, which can go a long way against Darros' def lead when combined with Ogma's much better earlygame.

I would give more exact numbers than that, but FEP sucks.

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19 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:56 am

If we're assuming Hunter-->General Ogma, and he does have those particular advantages, then I have no problem with Ogma>Darros>Bord. He's not doubling much after promotion anyways, so we might as well significantly improve his defense.

All three in Upper Mid though. I'll do some statistical comparisons if anybody objects.

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20 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:51 am

Mekkah

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The only reason I'm "advocating" Ogma as a Merc/Hunter -> General is because it makes it easier to compare him to Darros, as instead of offense vs defense they become largely the same. It is technically possible for Merc -> Hero to be better than Hunter -> General, but easier to look at it this way.

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21 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:19 pm

The only thing I don't like about Hunter-->General is that it destroys their Lance weapon rank, meaning they can't have an enemy phase or use Ridersbane for awhile. The only character that can really pull this off with this route is Draug. The reason why a character would want a bow is if they can't take hits otherwise. Being a tank who can only use bows effectively kind of defeats some of their purpose.

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22 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:20 pm

The problem with Merc -> Hero is that after Ch 18 Ogma has trouble doubling anything that matters, and that's the whole point of going Hero over General. I'd probably go with Hunter -> General, while still using Merc whenever it's useful (like Ch 9).

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23 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:51 pm

CAT5 wrote:The problem with Merc -> Hero is that after Ch 18 Ogma has trouble doubling anything that matters, and that's the whole point of going Hero over General. I'd probably go with Hunter -> General, while still using Merc whenever it's useful (like Ch 9).

Mercenary -> Hero Ogma only needs to be 20/5 to double almost everything but Camus and a Paladin in Chapter 20. He needs to be 20/19 to double Wyverns, granted, but I wouldn't call doubling Paladins and Generals, which are just as common, if not more common than Wyverns as "having trouble doubling anything that matters".

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24 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:48 pm

What's also right after the wyverns is Gharnef's tower from hell. If Hunter-general Ogma isn't getting doubled, I'd say the huge ass amounts of HP the General class gives would work better at padding out the damage than the offense.

But more importantly after that, the game starts to flood in heroes, snipers, and mamkutes. I'd value defense against these things, since you'll be having a hell of a time doubling these 21 speed sniper/heroes, and then you can't double mamkutes unless by some miracle you maxed out a swordmaster's speed (26 AS Mamkutes? Fuck you, IS).

Thing is, no matter what, 2 things will happen with the hunter.

-He keeps a good sword rank if you promote him to hero. Either way, his axe rank sucks (and he has no business going the fighter class). Starts with C, forced earlygame, gets a bonus at promotion. I could easily say no matter what, he'll always have B Swords at promotion.

-He's got bow rank built up, and this allows 2 things. A good weapon rank as a general, and as a horseman.

All hunter class would do is make him more versatile. I don't see how that's bad at all.

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25 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:54 pm

Doubling the Generals isn't a huge deal when he can't even ORKO with an Armorslayer. As for the Paladins, he will double the lower AS variant, but not the 17 AS ones. He still can't ORKO though, and against the Paladin 11s (assuming 20/6: 28-1 Atk), he can only 4RKO them. He 2RKOs all other Paladins. This is pretty bad when the rest of the team is either ORKOing or taking a lot of hits.

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26 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:02 pm

IOS wrote:Doubling the Generals isn't a huge deal when he can't even ORKO with an Armorslayer. As for the Paladins, he will double the lower AS variant, but not the 17 AS ones. He still can't ORKO though, and against the Paladin 11s (assuming 20/6: 28-1 Atk), he can only 4RKO them. He 2RKOs all other Paladins. This is pretty bad when the rest of the team is either ORKOing or taking a lot of hits.

If I said anything to the contrary of this, I'm sorry; however, I don't believe I did. I merely mentioned that his doubling as a Hero isn't totally gone in the lategame as suggested by CATS.

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27 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:11 pm

Yeah, Ninji's right. I must've made an error or something looking at Ogma's Spd earlier.

As for Ch 20 offense, Armorslayer might not ORKO Generals but it is indeed damn close (20/6 Ogma = 17-18 Str + 21 Mt vs 50-52 Hp and 15 Def). He's doing far more than General Ogma would. If he's 20/6, then he's also doubling 17 AS Pallies as he averages 21.2 Spd (again, unless I'm making an error). And Mercurius ORKOs Paladins if he's able to double.

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28 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:20 pm

CAT5 wrote:Yeah, Ninji's right. I must've made an error or something looking at Ogma's Spd earlier.

As for Ch 20 offense, Armorslayer might not ORKO Generals but it is indeed damn close (20/6 Ogma = 17-18 Str + 21 Mt vs 50-52 Hp and 15 Def). He's doing far more than General Ogma would. If he's 20/6, then he's also doubling 17 AS Pallies as he averages 21.2 Spd (again, unless I'm making an error). And Mercurius ORKOs Paladins if he's able to double.

For the record, you can just use Serenes Forest for Ogma's Merc -> Hero stats.

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29 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:57 pm

And for the record, he doesn't average 21 speed until around 20/8.

Its just his lategame performance that is poor overall. He'll never ORKO (unless you're going to give him Mercurius, which Athena/Nabarl/Marth also want), and he doesn't have much in the way of concrete durability since he'll be stuck to Swords most of the time (Axe users shave off three might from Lance users).

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30 Re: Bord ftw on Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:52 pm

He can likely get C Axes by the time he hits C20. I've done this countless of times with Merc -> Hero.
The only thing I don't like about Hunter-->General is that it destroys their Lance weapon rank, meaning they can't have an enemy phase or use Ridersbane for awhile. The only character that can really pull this off with this route is Draug. The reason why a character would want a bow is if they can't take hits otherwise. Being a tank who can only use bows effectively kind of defeats some of their purpose.
Consider that if we're promoting by C12 there is no Ridersbane to begin with and even when you can buy them you're impractical to use it until C16. There's little issue to this route other than you don't get Silver Lances as lightning fast. You could simply plop a Hunter->General as a Armor Knight in C8 too.

'Tis not like we're starting at E Lances, unlike AK -> General which starts with E Bows.

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