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Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid?

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1 Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:01 am

I'll probably construct more later, but to give you an idea:

--/5 Bartre w/Killer Bow (9x3 + 24 Str): 51 Atk

This actually OHKOes the FalconKnights who have 41 HP | 10 Def. The level is possibly assuming the worst case scenario here as well (Bartre will likely be higher than --/5). Throwing major pain onto the Dragon Rider | Lords help a lot too, and these guys still have to face Crit chances.

To simply put it his usefulness would extend further into the game, though there is a minor problem with his AS being really, REALLY iffy as far as being doubled. There is a shop by C21, so it can probably be patched to the point where he shouldn't be doubled (I think one does the trick) though I could be slightly forgetful.

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2 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:15 am

Mekkah

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It'll probably have to be a Steel Bow, as I find growing two bow levels to be unrealistic. And considering people generally perform well on pegs, I don't think you're worthy of Upper Mid just because you can kill them. Once per phase, no less.

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3 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:04 am

Bartre starts with D bows, not E.

I don't think it's worth giving Bartre Speedwings in chapter 21 just so that he fails less defensively when other units can stand to improve offensively with those same resources. It would be sandbagging, however, to deny him that resource from a comparison standpoint, but it just doesn't help him by an incredible amount.

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4 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:31 pm

Not that he really needs it for Ilia. Silver axe for the pegs and he can easily OHKO them by then. For Falcos, he has steel bows.

I'd probably bust him more on his performance in Bern, when the heroes in chapter 22 fuck his shit up. Well, if it weren't for bows anyways. Think he could have Killers by then? Not saying it's a fix all, but it helps at least.

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5 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:32 pm

Keep in mind they're buyable by C21 IIRC, so there's little penalty for him to get the resource especially since he is a prepromote.

dondon corrected the Bow rank, but Steel does the job anyway (same Mt, just less Crit).

He's still useful otherwise. Take Dragon Riders | Lords, which are tough as fuck to kill. Bartre leaves them with a whopping 4 HP in the chapter I described (41 HP | 14 Def). Dragon Lords get like 58 HP | 18 Def, but it still levers them down 33 HP, which is more than half the HP Dragon Lords have. Anything with that much of power is helpful.

Iunno about Bern, though it looks like the Heroes are the only units that sound an alarm (Berserk Druids sounds everyone's alarm anyway). Dragon Riders should be curbed with the Speedwing at the least, so he should be competent vs. the en mass flying units.

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6 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:50 pm

Dragon Riders should be curbed with the Speedwing at the least

Pretty sure Wyverns have more than 8 AS.

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7 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:58 pm

bblader1 wrote:
Dragon Riders should be curbed with the Speedwing at the least

Pretty sure Wyverns have more than 8 AS.
Wyvern Lords buddy. They double him without the Speedwing (wtf at their Spd ratios by Bern).

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8 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:00 pm

I don't believe Bartre chugging a wing so he can AVOID being doubled is a very good use of resources :/

If anything it's a major strike again st him because instead of needing a speedwing to be good, he's downgraded to needing a speedwing not to suck.

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9 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:07 pm

Again, he also didn't cost a Hero Crest, so I don't see how it can be such a major penalty to have it.

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10 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:12 pm

No, but it's just that if you have, for example, 4 Speedwings to hand out and Bartre doesn't make good use of it, he shouldn't be getting it anyway from an opportunity cost analysis standpoint because other units make better use of it. It doesn't really matter that he didn't use a promotion item in the first place.

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11 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:35 pm

Exactly, units should not be compensated for not using a promotion item unless it's something we can actually buy with our money that they saved us, if they even saved us any at all [There are excessive Bolts/Whips so Yunno/Dayan shouldn't be getting Robes or nothing] Crest is one of the more vluable resources, but Dick/Rutger/Gonzales/Fir/OJ/who the fuck ever else actually becomes really good with a promotion item, Bartre goes from shit to less shitty.

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12 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:52 pm

Even if he doesn't swallow the Speedwing he can survive the impact: he can last until C20X for sure (C20 has Dragon Lords by the looks of it, but as the number of them I don't know)...

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13 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:56 pm

bblader1 wrote:Exactly, units should not be compensated for not using a promotion item unless it's something we can actually buy with our money that they saved us, if they even saved us any at all [There are excessive Bolts/Whips so Yunno/Dayan shouldn't be getting Robes or nothing] Crest is one of the more vluable resources, but Dick/Rutger/Gonzales/Fir/OJ/who the fuck ever else actually becomes really good with a promotion item, Bartre goes from shit to less shitty.
I agree with the idea, but I think you're doing it wrong. It depends on the comparison. So if you're doing something like Dayan vs Bartre, neither had an initial money cost (promotion) so neither gets anything over the other. You don't look at the path they would have taken had they not already been promoted. If you do something like Dayan vs Oujay, you now do have to weigh the fact that Oujay took a promotion item and Dayan didn't, despite the fact that Dayan's theoretical promotion item didn't have any initial cost.

The point is, it depends on the specific comparison if someone like Bartre should be "compensated" or not for not taking a promotion item. For general tiering of units, I would just assume a Robe or something for pre-promotes since the time you can buy those just so happens to be the time you buy promotion items, but that needs to be done carefully as well.

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14 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:43 am

There's also an infinite supply pretty much in C21, so it's possible that Bartre can have his Speedwing and anyone else can have whatever. Your return would also be a unit that injures the hard-to-kill Dragon Riders and Lords. Heroes would still be a problem, but they only last for C22 and Bartre can 2 range them with a Killer Bow. It'd also give Fir and... possibly Gonzales a long-lasting support.

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15 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:37 pm

Colonel M wrote:There's also an infinite supply pretty much in C21, so it's possible that Bartre can have his Speedwing and anyone else can have whatever. Your return would also be a unit that injures the hard-to-kill Dragon Riders and Lords. Heroes would still be a problem, but they only last for C22 and Bartre can 2 range them with a Killer Bow. It'd also give Fir and... possibly Gonzales a long-lasting support.
The supply is not "infinite;" it is limited by the amount of money that you have on you and it is demanded for by a plethora of other characters. I had enough money to buy 7 Angelic Robes in chapter 16, but that was after basically selling all of my promotion items that I didn't use - in an actual playthrough you'd probably be buying more promotion items in chapter 16 than selling them. Which brings me to another point; it is more beneficial to blow all of your cash on Angelic Robes in chapter 16 than to wait for Speedwings and such in chapter 21 because you get more total utility that way, because the effects are in play for more chapters.

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16 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:20 pm

Is there anyone in Upper Mid that Bartre is better than, or is the proposal merely to put him bottom of Upper Mid?

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17 Re: Bartre (Ilia) in Upper Mid? on Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:34 pm

Technically I find Upper Mid meaning that you are good for a good portion of the game, as compared to Lower Mid where it could be argued it's roughly 50% or lower. Cecilia has the Staves and Aircalibur, but counting her low concrete durability and not having much better AS than Bartre...
The supply is not "infinite;" it is limited by the amount of money that you have on you and it is demanded for by a plethora of other characters. I had enough money to buy 7 Angelic Robes in chapter 16, but that was after basically selling all of my promotion items that I didn't use - in an actual playthrough you'd probably be buying more promotion items in chapter 16 than selling them. Which brings me to another point; it is more beneficial to blow all of your cash on Angelic Robes in chapter 16 than to wait for Speedwings and such in chapter 21 because you get more total utility that way, because the effects are in play for more chapters.
I don't see why there's a major issue with this. Remember, there are 3 Speedwings already through this mode. 3 of them. It would technically depend on how many # of units you seriously are deploying, but I have high doubts it is more than 10 regular units. But if you really want to give the Angelic Robe instead... and assuming C Gonzales | B Fir by the time C20 arrives, Bartre can survive a Dragon Lord w/Silver Lance at Level --/7. He would take 50 damage, but he would survive.

EDIT: Actually, if he can reach Level 10 before C20, then the Speedwing can be absent altogether.

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