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On Lugh's postition

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1 On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:38 pm

I tried to read through the heaps of text on serenes about his ranking but I just couldn't. So instead, how about we prompt some fresh discussion here? I know some people are discontent with his current ranking, not just me.

I think the main issue I had with what little I read is how certain points only reflected on one character, and not the comparison of the two in question. Example:

As for Ilia, Lou has nowhere near reliable avoid. 20/3, he has 46, Ilian pegs have 44 hit. With steel, they have 53 displayed, and do 24 mt, which 2RKOs Lou with his 30 HP and 8 Def.

This is a completely irrelevant point if Klein has less avoid than him (which I'm pretty sure is true). What should be in focus is how Klein and Lugh's durability compare, not how "crappy" Lugh's avoid is.

Right now, I am thinking that Lugh could go up against Roy. Supposing Roy can take an extra hit, Lugh also has the advantage of attacking at range, so their durability would just about match up. Then while Roy is stuck at lv 20/0 until the game's practically over, Lugh has surpassed him in many areas, most notably speed and staves. This is just a brainstorming argument, I'll give it more structure and substance if anyone disagrees enough.

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2 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:49 pm

I would think that just stands to make Roy go down. He's basically a myrmidon without the uber-speed and a late promotion. His only real credentials are that A. He's forced every map, thus B. He is garunteed supports with the two best units in the game, and C. Post promotion, his SoS helps greatly witht eh pain in the ass enemies of chapter 22. Otherwise, I can't really say much for him at all.

Roy's been climbing down, it's not hard to see him go lower and lower.

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3 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:52 pm

How viable exactly are Roy's supports with Alan and Lance if he constantly has to keep up with them, going from a 2 move gap to a 3 move gap and eventually not even wanting to fight?

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4 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:56 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:How viable exactly are Roy's supports with Alan and Lance if he constantly has to keep up with them, going from a 2 move gap to a 3 move gap and eventually not even wanting to fight?

Wow, I could have sworn I brought this up multiple times, but apparently I was full of crap then!

Well, it does have credentials. Comes early, decently fast, literally all the time in the world, and you can build supports with a rescued unit. Lanc and Allen at times will be transporting Roy.

Then there's the question of who else do Allen and Lance really have? Marcus dies out eventually, lolWalt, Thany and Clarine are slow.

Then again, it's constantly brought up that Allen and Lance don't really NEED Roy. It's weird really.

If Roy's not supporting them though, who is he supporting? He has a huge list to choose from, he desn't necessarily need them any more than they do him. It's not like you have to have Roy fight, nor is he particularly good at it anyways.

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5 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:24 pm

If you want to discuss Roy's position in detail, make a separate topic. Maybe I should change the current comparison to Lugh vs Klein for now?

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6 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:34 pm

Vykan12 wrote:If you want to discuss Roy's position in detail, make a separate topic. Maybe I should change the current comparison to Lugh vs Klein for now?

Perhaps.

Starting with the obvious, Klein needs no effort to be as good as he is (Brave bow makes any archer usable in Sacae, chipping offense, anti-draco), and needs no promotion item. In fact, due to brave bow making any archer usable in Sacae, he can easily fill in for Shin as well. This means we can basically sell a whip and a bolt, scoring us 10,000 gold.

Lou...Starts slightly better than Walt, needs a promotion item, of which he makes up for his meh Sacae performance with a slightly good Ilian performance (aircalibur, terrain, he can distract that way, but that's 1 pegasi map compared to the two nomad maps Sacae has), and he can be thrown on a mountain to distract wyverns in Bern. Brave Bow and Killer bow can help in other places, such as chapter 22 with the pain in the ass heroes, of which the brave bow can do substantial chip to otherwise difficult to double heroes, or potentially just kill something in one shot.

Basically my opinion is just that Lou is too much effort, despite a pretty nice payoff. Klein is just effortless and profitable off the bat.

Yes this was a very generalizing post, but my brain is fried currently.

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7 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:38 pm

Pretend that Lugh's overall contribution before Klein joins is neutral, then compare them. We can later agree upon the impact of Lugh's availability advantage.

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8 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:01 pm

I will once again proceed to point out that if Thany is being fed kills Lugh has every right to get them because feeding him kills is EASIER [higher damage than Thany w/Iron+chip]

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9 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:24 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Pretend that Lugh's overall contribution before Klein joins is neutral, then compare them. We can later agree upon the impact of Lugh's availability advantage.

I'm pretty sure if you're a god, by the time Klein shows up, you'd be 15. Since I'm measuring to someone who is apparently "neutral", I'll assume 12.

21.5 HP, 8.4 Mag, 10.5 Skill, 11.5 Speed, 8.85 Luck, 4.65 Def, 8.3 Res. 24 Hit, 30 avoid, 5 crit

Klein

32.85 HP, 15.7 Str, 15.7 Skill, 12.8 Speed, 12.7 Luck, 9.35 Def, 7.35 Res. 36 Hit, 36 avoid, 7 crit

It's very possible he shows up with 1 more HP, Str, Skill, Speed and Luck.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch12a.html

So Lou is doubling only the slower end archers and steel axers. Klein if he got the speed can double the slower end hand axers. Elfire is 8 mt, so Lou will have 16 mt. He's doing a maximum of 28, minimum of 13. What's also important to note is that these axers can pack up to 29 mt, and handies can possibly have 25. They still have an easy time smiting Lou. So Lou is basically stuck at 2 range (where even then he's not necessarily safe), and needs his strongest option of a weapon of which only has 20 uses, and we've had since chapter 8.

Klein with an iron bow has 21-22 mt. So he can do generally the same thing Lou can, except this is a far more available weapon. Then, Klein could switch to killer to kill them, possibly in one shot, or his silver to do the same. With iron, he can ORKO archers without worry of their speed. Its even possible for him to OHKO the dark mages with silver if they'er weaker end.

However, I feel this is being generous to a guy who's NOT neutral in earlygame, but mediocre (it's not negative, just crappy). You're assuming 11 levels in 8-9 chapters to someone who's only performing slightly better than Walt earlygame.

Roy usually has a C open, and Lillina can fill it in one turn. She essentially then has 6 Mag, and a level 10 Lou would have 7. It could be assumed a C with Ellen, but Roy has hte excuse of always forced, whereas Ellen has plenty of trouble spots if we are having to use her throughout the game. 10 speed is what a level 10 Lou has. Lou's only real advantage over Lillina is able to double weighed down axers. I still feel level 10 is being generous to someone who's been performing only slightly better than the worst unit on your team. Otherwise they both have the same problem. It's pretty much the only reason I would put Lou a tier over Lillina, despite his offense being generally as bad, if not worse, to everything else. But at times I just wonder if the effort is really worth it.

@Bblader-Thany has more support options, essentially 2 chapters of usability over Lou (Lou starts basically away from the action in chapter 3, and he absolutely blows against the boss). You could she improves at a faster rate because of it. Then consider we only have to train her to early promotion, whereas Lou needs to be trained essentially until level 20. Thany's promotion comes as soon as chapter 8, Lou needs to be dragged to chapter 16.

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10 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:05 pm

Instead of responding to your post point by point, I decided instead to investigate Lugh's supposedly terrible earlygame performance.

Chapter 3

Allan lv 4/0 (iron lance): 24 hp, 15 atk, 84 hit, 7 spd, 7 def, 0 res, 18 avo
Iron sword: 13 atk, 99 hit

Lance lv 4/0 (iron lance): 22 hp, 13 atk, 87 hit 9 spd, 7 def, 0 res, 21 avo
Iron sword: 11 atk, 102 hit

Lugh lv 1/0 (fire): 16 hp, 9 atk, 110 hit, 6 spd, 3 def, 5 res, 17 avo

An ironlance!knight 3HKOes Allan and Lance while 2HKOing Lugh. Note that the dodgiest character here (Lance) faces a whopping 64 display hit, so nobody’s dodging reliably at all.

19+ atk is required to 1HKO Lugh, but that’s precisely enough atk to 2HKO Allan and Lance anyway. The gap is pretty much always going to be 1 more attack that Allan + Lance can absorb, but they are forced to take a player phase counter unless they want to murder their atk, AS and hit with a javelin.

Offensively, Lance doubles 1 enemy Lugh doesn’t, otherwise everyone’s tied. Hit for hit, Lugh wins by a huge margin against armors and loses by a few points against everything else.

Now let’s look at hit rates:

Lugh vs an armor: 100
Lance vs an armor: 84
Lance vs an armor (wtd): 74
Lugh vs an archer: 92 hit
Lance vs an archer: 69 hit

I’m sorry, but this concept that Lugh is the second worst character in earlygame baffles me.

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11 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:19 pm

@Bblader-Thany has more support options

yeah, support options that make her atk go from worse than Lughs to tying, only Lugh has Ellen to re-compensate.

And her only viable ATK support isn't always in play [If you insist on sandbagging Lugh out of Ellen I'm sure as hell going to sandbag Thany out of Lot]

(Lou starts basically away from the action in chapter 3

Not really, just have somebody on a mount visit the village and rescue him back. He should get to the armors on time.

And you really NEED him to hit the armors unless you want to flush armorslayer uses down the shitter.

Lou needs to be dragged to chapter 16.

Chapter FOURTEEN, and I don't even want to hear that he won't get the second ring.

still feel level 10 is being generous to someone who's been performing only slightly better than the worst unit on your team.

Thany to low mid then because she's not getting the early promotion she so desperately needs.

If Thany can get to 10 by C8x/C9 Lugh has no fucking excuse not to be at least as high, only due to the wonders of chip damage he WILL be higher, something like 12.

The hilarious thing is that Thany's offense sucks worse than Lugh's and she has to take a counter, so yeah, if Lugh goes down Thany is sure as hell going down with him.

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12 Re: On Lugh's postition on Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:40 pm

I tend to agree with Bblader1. For one thing, it's easy to show the def-res gap in this game is huge. Picking some random chapters:

Chapter 9

Merc: 3
Pirate: 4
Archer: 5

Chapter 17A

Cavalier: 6
Paladin: 2
Pirate: 4
Armor: 16

Chapter 21

Armor: 18
Archer: 4
Wyvern: 12
Paladin: 3
Mamkute: 11

Need I go on?

And again, Lugh (and other mages) have an important offensive advantage in regards to hit rate. To give you some context:

Fire vs iron lance: 95 hit vs 70
Thunder vs steel lance: 80 hit vs 55
Elfire vs steel axe: 75 vs 50

It's as though Lugh has a static gap of +25 hit on your physical fighters. That's huge considering how much hit rates are an issue in this game.

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13 Re: On Lugh's postition on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:45 pm

Lugh being the second worst character in earlygame? How is that possible?

Lugh lv 1/0 (fire): 16 hp, 9 atk, 110 hit, 6 spd, 3 def, 5 res, 17 av
Chad lv 1/0 (iron sword): 16 hp, 8 atk, 93 hit, 10 spd, 2 def, 0 res, 24 av
Thany 2/0 (iron lance): 18 hp, 11 atk, 87 hit, 9 spd, 6 def, 5 res, 21 av
Wolt 3/0 (iron bow): 20 hp, 11 atk, 91 hit, 6 spd, 4 def, 0 res, 15 av

I could only find the following enemy stats, but they should give a pretty good idea:
http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch3.html

Knight: Everyone tinks, except for Lugh who 2RKOs. Assuming they have Iron Lances, everybody gets 2RKO'd.
Soldier: Lugh 4RKOs, Chad 3RKOs, Thany 2RKOs and Wolt 3RKOs. Assuming they have Iron Lances, everybody gets 2RKO'd
Archer: Lugh 3RKOs, Chad 7RKOs, Thany 4RKOs and Wolt 4RKOs. Assuming they have Iron Bows, everybody gets 2RKO'd except for Thany (ORKO'd)
Fighter: Lugh 4RKOs, Chad 6RKOs, Thany 5RKOs and Wolt 4RKOs. Assuming they have Iron Axes, everybody gets 2RKO'd.

Offensively, Lugh wins against everything but the soldiers, while everybody is equal defensively. Lugh also has the advantage of 1~2 range kills, making it easy to kill off Knights, etc from a distance. Its looking like he's not doing too badly after all (and his hit is the most reliable; Thany only has 58 hit on that fighter for example).

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14 Re: On Lugh's postition on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:56 pm

Remember that the Loldiers weigh themselves down by at least 2, so Base Lugh actually doubles. Of course they're all probably gone by the time Thany rescuedrops him, but still.

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15 Re: On Lugh's postition on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:15 pm

True, this would let Lugh 2RKO, and have the indisputable best offence of the four. Also worth mentioning that Lugh is the only one of the four that can damage the boss.

I'm also questioning Thany's hit rates. Against archers for example, she has 87-16 or 71 displayed hit (83.47 true). If I calculated this right, she only has a 69.67% chance of hitting both times. Not something to rely on.

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16 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:48 am

Whenever I play chapter 3, Lugh generally sees no combat at all. Why should Thany have to rescue drop Lugh when she can fight and build supports with Dieck and Lot?

IOS wrote:Also worth mentioning that Lugh is the only one of the four that can damage the boss.
I'm not sure that this is very significant at all.

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17 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:21 am

Thany fighting, lol.

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18 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:37 pm

Looking at those numbers she's pulling, I don't see why Thany should be fighting. She's on par with Wolt for second worst character on the team (and Wolt doesn't fear counters for the most part, so Thany actually is the second worst character on the team), and Lugh is performing much better. You're just putting her in more danger if she's seeing more combat.

I really think we should look at Lugh vs. Thany, because I agree with bblader1 about Thany being given unfair babying.

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19 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:16 pm

Thany should be fighting because she wants to gain EXP? Or are you guys going to continue with this bullshit sandbagging charade? Do you really think that getting Lugh to 11/0 or whatever by chapter 9 even compares to Thany doubling enemies and facing like single digit hit rates? Here's a clue: 11 AS does not double anything on the map (most enemies there use Iron Axe, Iron Bow, or Hand Axe). And for that matter, 11 AS does not double anything in the Western Isles other than Steel Axe fighters and Steel Bow archers, but everyone and their mothers can double those.

And both of you conveniently ignored my point that Thany wants to stick with the fighting group because she wants to build supports with Lot and Dieck.

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20 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:49 pm

Good luck getting Thany the experience to get there in the first place, when she's 2RKO'd by everything that moves, is screwed if she misses (I demonstrated how her hit rates are an issue, which you ignored), and has no access to 2 range unless she wants to murder her hit rate even more. Also, single digit hit rates? I call bullshit on that. She's getting weighed down by everything which decreases her AS, and the most she can hope for out of supports is 2 avd from a C. Doubling enemies also isn't all that useful when you don't have the strength to actually make use of it. 10/1 Thany has 9 strength and can't effectively use anything higher then an Iron Lance until Chapter 13 when Killers come. Sorry, but that isn't killing shit all.

Thany wants to stick with the fighting group to build up supports? Well I'm sure Roy would love for Alan and Lance to always stick with the fighting group so he can build supports. I'm sure Guy would love for Matthew to stick with the fighting group and actually be able to fight. Doesn't mean its going to happen.

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21 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:28 pm

Thany should be fighting because she wants to gain EXP?


Lugh doesn't?

Or are you guys going to continue with this bullshit sandbagging charade?

Yep, we're the only sandbaggers here.

11/0 or whatever by chapter 9 even compares to Thany doubling enemies and facing like single digit hit rates? Here's a clue: 11 AS does not double anything on the map (most enemies there use Iron Axe, Iron Bow, or Hand Axe). And for that matter, 11 AS does not double anything in the Western Isles other than Steel Axe fighters and Steel Bow archers, but everyone and their mothers can double those.

I reiterate, so what? Becoming better out of receiving babying does not mean you can get that babying and nobody else can. This is an argument for Thany>Lugh, it's a poor excuse to give Thany head.

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22 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:29 pm

bblader1 wrote:And her only viable ATK support isn't always in play
I've never played this game, I have no idea who these people are, and as far as I'm concerned "Thany" is a mispelling of Micaiah's PRF tome. No character biases here.

What is "not always in play" supposed to mean? If "Thany" needs an ATK support in order for her army to be efficient, then give the support to her. If her support partner is a piece of shit, or is hotly desired by other people that are more efficient with said partner, that's a cost of giving her the support that may outweigh the benefits that she gets from it.

Or is this not an efficient play list?

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23 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:20 pm

Interceptor wrote:
bblader1 wrote:And her only viable ATK support isn't always in play
I've never played this game, I have no idea who these people are, and as far as I'm concerned "Thany" is a mispelling of Micaiah's PRF tome. No character biases here.

What is "not always in play" supposed to mean? If "Thany" needs an ATK support in order for her army to be efficient, then give the support to her. If her support partner is a piece of shit, or is hotly desired by other people that are more efficient with said partner, that's a cost of giving her the support that may outweigh the benefits that she gets from it.

Or is this not an efficient play list?
This is something I've wanted to say for a long time but could never find the right way to explain it. Thank you, Interceptor (Am I the only one who consistently calls you by your full name?).

I wish I'd had something like this when defending the likes of Fir and Rutger.

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24 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:26 pm

bblader1 wrote:Becoming better out of receiving babying does not mean you can get that babying and nobody else can.
It actually does. I could draw a graph, with marginal cost and utility, but I don't feel like it. You're blowing the amount of effort way out of proportion.

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25 Re: On Lugh's postition on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:01 pm

dondon151 wrote:
bblader1 wrote:Becoming better out of receiving babying does not mean you can get that babying and nobody else can.
It actually does. I could draw a graph, with marginal cost and utility, but I don't feel like it. You're blowing the amount of effort way out of proportion.

Well, at the very least it means the babying costs more.

Theoretical units time:

Let's start with two units that have the same everything except growths.

So like level, bases, movement type, weapon types, weapon levels, etc.

Their bases are enough such that either unit can be fed kills with equal effort for the next 7 chapters. Assume one unit has .1 higher in each growth than the other unit. So like 40% vs. 30%, etc.

It should be obvious which unit is more worthy of the feeding. Of course, if it's 0% growths vs. 10% growths, neither unit is likely to be worth feeding. But the point would remain that the unit with the higher growths is more worth it (even if it's like a 1 vs. a 4 on a scale of 1 to 100).

The question becomes by chapter 10 (for example), with equal amounts of effort in feeding the two units (assuming they are on differing teams), is one significantly better than the other?

There needs to be a cutoff line, of course. In the previous example (with the 0% and 10% growths), neither unit would be beyond the cutoff line, and thus neither is worthy. There is a maximum amount of effort in babying beyond which it is more trouble than it is worth (likely to be profit - opportunity cost < 0, in whatever way it gets judged), so that means that it is perfectly valid to say "babying" one unit is justifiable while babying another is not. There have been points from either side attempting to justify the babying of specific characters, or to attempt to invalidate the legitimacy of babying specific other characters.

But so far the Thany side seems to be doing better.

Generic Fire Emblem:
Anyway, the main point is that if a unit turns out better out of babying, and we say it gets babied as a result, that doesn't automatically mean that every other unit that wants to be babied can get babied. However, it also doesn't mean that no other unit can get babied. Just because you are the best babying option, doesn't necessarily make you the only one that gets babied. If there is room for two or three units getting babied, it seems worthwhile. Oh, and there is no point in half babying two units. That's inefficient because if there is only room for one then you are spreading exp too thin, and neither will turn out useful. Under the assumption there is room for one unit to be fully babied, it follows that it is also inefficient to baby neither unit (out of some misplaced sense of fairness), since you have the ability to do it without hurting the team/turncount.

Depending on how the list looks at probability of deployment, though, the second or third best babying options could still get tiered based on being babied for a time, because the better options may not be seriously fielded. Think CRK in 3-9. Basically all of them get tiered with the assumption they get paragon in 3-9, despite 5 units (Marcia, Calill, Mak, Kieran, Danved) vying over 2 paragons. The reasoning is similar.




Unrelated question:

What does PRF stand for? I mean, I know what it is: A weapon only a specific unit can use. Like Ragnell. But what do the P, R, and F stand for? I've never been able to figure it out. Personal Rare Find? Can't be that.

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26 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:33 am

Mekkah

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Preferred, I think.

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27 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:41 am

Interceptor wrote:
bblader1 wrote:And her only viable ATK support isn't always in play
I've never played this game, I have no idea who these people are, and as far as I'm concerned "Thany" is a mispelling of Micaiah's PRF tome. No character biases here.

What is "not always in play" supposed to mean? If "Thany" needs an ATK support in order for her army to be efficient, then give the support to her. If her support partner is a piece of shit, or is hotly desired by other people that are more efficient with said partner, that's a cost of giving her the support that may outweigh the benefits that she gets from it.

Or is this not an efficient play list?

Then I suppose you didn't read the rest of my post which stated that Jackal always tries to fuck Lugh out of his own support, me screwing Thany out of hers was a way to retaliate.

It actually does. I could draw a graph, with marginal cost and utility, but I don't feel like it. You're blowing the amount of effort way out of proportion.

The effort is not what I have a problem with, this should have been very obvious by now.

Also I just want to mention that Thany is not even CLOSE to invincible against archers in C9. It only makes her "invincible" against axemen, anything else is fair game. lvl 6 Archers leave her with 1 HP, lvl 9's instakill her. Hit rates on her aren't even CLOSE to "single digit" either plus the map is fog, so this is a very big problem. Then C10A has a Ballistae which restricts her from doing pretty much anything in this chapter. C12 has lots of archer traps that WILL prioritize her (reference) that she has to face no matter which end of the map she's on. C13 has THREE ballistae and wyverns which she has neutral WT making her easy pickings [And she deals shit damage as well], she's fucked. I shouldn't have to state how badly she blows in Sacae, holy ballistae and nomad swarms plus Fog of War for two chapters Batman [Ilia has even more ballistae before anybody tries to cop the alternate route argument]. And by the time that's over, C21 rolls along and she can't do a goddamn thing against wyverns, and if anybody mentions the 15 use Wyrmslayer I'm going to stab them.

Thany can have her babying and early promotion, my question is what good does it do? She needed all that babying, for what? Sucking less?

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28 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:17 am

bblader1 wrote:Also I just want to mention that Thany is not even CLOSE to invincible against archers in C9. It only makes her "invincible" against axemen, anything else is fair game. lvl 6 Archers leave her with 1 HP, lvl 9's instakill her. Hit rates on her aren't even CLOSE to "single digit" either plus the map is fog, so this is a very big problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPlRV6G7-Z8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmO1NCFlCw4

Add in some more fighting.

bblader1 wrote:Then C10A has a Ballistae which restricts her from doing pretty much anything in this chapter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICJ8VBjLs8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBivHCW-Dw

The top group of enemies, minus the archer obviously, is completely safe from the ballista for all intents and purposes as well.

bblader1 wrote:C12 has lots of archer traps that WILL prioritize her that she has to face no matter which end of the map she's on.
I am very familiar with chapter 12. Don't deploy her.

bblader1 wrote:C13 has THREE ballistae and wyverns which she has neutral WT making her easy pickings [And she deals shit damage as well], she's fucked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdoXAFnon7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3fn3mzfxDA

The ballistae are negligible, as demonstrated above.

bblader1 wrote:I shouldn't have to state how badly she blows in Sacae, holy ballistae and nomad swarms plus Fog of War for two chapters Batman [Ilia has even more ballistae before anybody tries to cop the alternate route argument].
Thany doubles nomads. You have units with good player/enemy phase, then units with good player phase, then units with neither. Thany falls into the second category. There are very few units that actually have good player phases in Sacae (i.e. have at least 22 AS).

bblader1 wrote:and if anybody mentions the 15 use Wyrmslayer I'm going to stab them.
Why not? Are we playing "pseudo FE6" where a side requirement is that we use the minimum amount of resources possible? Everything has to be considered even if it is small.

bblader1 wrote:Thany can have her babying and early promotion, my question is what good does it do? She needed all that babying, for what? Sucking less?
Lugh can have his babying and early promotion (though it hurts him more than it helps), my question is what good does it do? He needed all that babying, for what? Sucking less (and to a much lesser extent than Thany)?

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29 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:40 am

Red Fox of Fire wrote:This is something I've wanted to say for a long time but could never find the right way to explain it. Thank you, Interceptor (Am I the only one who consistently calls you by your full name?).
Happy to oblige. And, yes I beleive so, but I don't begrudge people for dropping the last three syllables. We do, after all, have a limited number of keystrokes before we die, and the leftover ones could be used to say things like "sandbagging" or "lollerskates".

I wish I'd had something like this when defending the likes of Fir and Rutger.
Sounds like an excuse to re-open the subject.



bblader1 wrote:Then I suppose you didn't read the rest of my post which stated that Jackal always tries to fuck Lugh out of his own support, me screwing Thany out of hers was a way to retaliate.
If true, all that means is that you're both Doing It Wrong<tm>. What's the point of that, exactly, other than being in good company?

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30 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:50 am

Lugh can have his babying and early promotion (though it hurts him more than it helps), my question is what good does it do? He needed all that babying, for what? Sucking less (and to a much lesser extent than Thany)?
If we want to play the technical game...

11/1 Lugh - 24 HP | 11 Mag | 13 Skl | 14 Spd | 8.5 Luck | 5.5 Def | 10 Res

If Jackal said something about 17 Spd doubles vast majority of the characters in the game, this only requires 6 levels. This is easy to get when you have Staves to help control a second pool of EXP.

Though otherwise I don't see the major merit of a promotion this early for Lugh...

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31 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:07 am

What exactly does Thany gain from an early promotion though? She gets swords which make her offence even worse (although her AS improves). However, she still isn't one rounding anything with her subpar attack, and she's drastically increasing her experience gained.

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32 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:10 am

IOS wrote:What exactly does Thany gain from an early promotion though? She gets swords which make her offence even worse (although her AS improves). However, she still isn't one rounding anything with her subpar attack, and she's drastically increasing her experience gained.
The capability of not being total shit in the Western Isles.

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33 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:35 pm

Colonel M wrote:If we want to play the technical game...

11/1 Lugh - 24 HP | 11 Mag | 13 Skl | 14 Spd | 8.5 Luck | 5.5 Def | 10 Res
11/1 Lugh has 12 spd. You applied the female mage promotion bonuses instead of the male one.

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34 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:04 pm

dondon151 wrote:
Colonel M wrote:If we want to play the technical game...

11/1 Lugh - 24 HP | 11 Mag | 13 Skl | 14 Spd | 8.5 Luck | 5.5 Def | 10 Res
11/1 Lugh has 12 spd. You applied the female mage promotion bonuses instead of the male one.
*Facepalm*.

Definitely don't see why you'd screw over Lugh now.

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35 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:12 pm

fuck it i don't care

Thunderman said something over IM about Lugh>Klein/Tate. If he wants to go any further with that, he'll have to do it, I'm done. The only thing I'm going to state at this point is that I was never arguing Lugh>Thany, only addressing a double standard [Of which I blame Grandjackal for overhyping, not dondon] and the only thing I was really hoping to accomplish was not to see Lugh drop to Lower Mid, I don't really care if he goes higher on the list. But I'm going to throw a massive fit again if Lugh does get de-hyped to lower mid, so I may have to touch this again yet.



Last edited by bblader1 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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36 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:20 pm

bblader1 wrote:Thany doubles?? Yeah, with uber light weapons, which don't ORKO, and 2RKOing Nomads isn't hard. So it's more like she has a player phase that is okay compared to your other guys and a completely inexcusable enemy phase.
10/9 Thany has 22.2 AS with a Killing Edge. 22 AS doubles all nomads. She also has 23.1 atk against 37 HP/8 def at the very max, leaving them in KO range of weak, accurate weapons. Not to mention 2 chances at a crit.

bblader1 wrote:Oh for fuck's sake, don't even. Do you have ANY idea how many other people [Hint, it's basically anybody who has C Swords] want that Wyrmslayer, on MAMKUTES? Thany needs two uses of it it for GENERIC FUCKING WYVERN KNIGHTS, and she'll only get seven kills out of it on most. Wow, that was a productive use of rare resources!
How many mamkutes are there in the game before endgame? There's Aine, a few in the desert (but let's be realistic, you'll never attack them), 2 in chapter 16 (one of them doesn't move, however, and doesn't block your path to anything), and a few more in endgame chapters. Which leaves the rest of the Wyrmslayers for use on WLs (and probably a couple of WKs).

She also doesn't need the Wyrmslayer on WKs, only WLs. Thany is pretty much 3HKOing WKs with a Silver Lance.

Oh yeah, WRT Lugh > Klein/Tate, I'm not sure I'd put him over Klein on the Sacae version of the tier list. I mean, that is like THE place to put the Brave Bow to use.



Last edited by dondon151 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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37 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:21 pm

What would be an acceptable level for Lugh in C9? I've had him as level 15 there and so I was thinking perhaps using level 10 but I think it's best to ask.

As for the separate tier lists, I can definitely see Lugh > Fir in the Ilia route due to Alacalibur raping the pegs in addition to Wyverns throughout the game.

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38 Re: On Lugh's postition on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:23 pm

Around 11/0 sounds fine to me. I usually have him at 10/0 or 9/0 but I tend to have low average levels compared to other people in every FE game that I play, so...

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