Fire Emblem Genesis

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Chad vs Asthol

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1 Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:37 pm

... Really? Just how is Chad >>> Asthol and on separate tiers for that matter?

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2 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:55 pm

Mweeheeheehee! Someone brought it up, when I was about to! Oh Sirius, you're starting to learn my nutsery X3

Anywho, way I see it is this. Basically does being better at not dying and needing no effort to be decent at combat on arrival (durability can get in the way of building weapon rank, and Ashtor starts with C rank to Chad's E) thus easier to train for later chapters outdo the treasures only Chad can nab you prior to his existence?

Either way, I agree. There at least shouldn't be a tier difference.

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3 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:01 pm

(durability can get in the way of building weapon rank

...What?

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4 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:04 pm

bblader1 wrote:
(durability can get in the way of building weapon rank

...What?

You can't attack too often if you're getting 2RKOd, not without having a staffer glued to him.

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5 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:06 pm

But Astor wins durability, so how on earth does this work against him?

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6 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:07 pm

bblader1 wrote:But Astor wins durability, so how on earth does this work against him?

...Oh, I put that with Asthor? I meant with Chad. My bad.

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7 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:21 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
Anywho, way I see it is this. Basically does being better at not dying and needing no effort to be decent at combat on arrival (durability can get in the way of building weapon rank, and Ashtor starts with C rank to Chad's E) thus easier to train for later chapters outdo the treasures only Chad can nab you prior to his existence?
Yes. If Chad is to be placed a tier above Asthol just because of those earlier treasure chests and nonsense like Lugh support, then you're giving him too much credit and putting far too much emphasis on earlygame (Marcus needs to move down cause of this too).

There's absolutely no reason why the weaker thief that requires earlygame EXP (which can be put to better use) to avoid being obsoleted should be above the one that obsoletes the former and stays sufficient with next to no cost whatsoever.

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8 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:55 pm

Yes. If Chad is to be placed a tier above Asthol just because of those earlier treasure chests

Those early chests [And the C7 red Gem steal] are worth a lot. 16k, 20k if you sell the goddess Icon, a silver lance and killer axe which are badass weapons, plus unlock+barrier for your staff whores to promote sooner. I dunno how much a second rapier is worth, but hey, you're not getting it without Chad.

Half the reason why funds is such a non-issue is because of how much Chad gives you earlygame.

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9 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:06 am

bblader1 wrote:
Yes. If Chad is to be placed a tier above Asthol just because of those earlier treasure chests

Those early chests [And the C7 red Gem steal] are worth a lot. 16k, 20k if you sell the goddess Icon, a silver lance and killer axe which are badass weapons, plus unlock+barrier for your staff whores to promote sooner. I dunno how much a second rapier is worth, but hey, you're not getting it without Chad.

Half the reason why funds is such a non-issue is because of how much Chad gives you earlygame.
http://serenesforest.net/fe6/location.html

Look at the chests you get later. Those earlygame chests only suggest that Chad has unique use temporarily (thus, he can't be low tier), not that he's better than Asthol.

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10 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:05 pm

Since they are likely only being tiered for thieving and not fighting, how would durability > early game stuff anyway? It's not like they'll be fighting, since I don't recall Astol being particularly good at join time and he doesn't really get better either. Chad might have to look out for Bolting is all I can think of would be a significant problem. And even if supporting a Thief is shaky, it's not impossible, and Chad can at least do something there.

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11 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:33 pm

If they're tiered only for just thieving, then the list has some issues. They should be tiered for thieving, combat and cost of use.

In addition to thieving like Chad, Asthol can help in combat and unlike Chad, you don't have to raise his weapon level or take earlygame EXP from others.

C swords to begin with means he can use Killing Edge, Light Brand (always 10 damage from range) and Armorslayer at base. You have to put more effort on Chad for him to do more than just thieving.

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12 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:48 pm

ThunderMan wrote:In addition to thieving like Chad, Asthol can help in combat and unlike Chad, you don't have to raise his weapon level or take earlygame EXP from others.
I really don't like that logic because then it puts more emphasis on late joining units. If Chad were really bad in combat for a while, that would be fine, but I recall him helping out pretty well with good avoid against some Axe weilding enemies.

You have to put more effort on Chad for him to do more than just thieving.
My problem is the value of either one of them fighting. We both know they'll hit a wall called "I never promote" and will therefore be completely obsolete in combat anyway. I mean, we don't really assume Sothe or Volke do much, if any, combat in FE9. Why should we here, when they're probably worse in the longrun? The only problem I can really think of is Chad's lower Spd base, but I'm sure it wouldn't be tough to get him up a few levels to let that 80% growth kick in.

I think the most emphasis should be put on their thieving, and that makes Chad > Astol for sure. Same tier, fine, I don't care (I think FE9 Volke and Sothe should be in the same tier as well), but I can't see some mediocre combat actually making Astol better.

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13 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:55 pm

Mekkah

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Chad's combat does start out really bad. Whatever doesn't one-shot him leaves him with like 1-2 hp, and everything with an axe does one-shot him. So unless he attacks from a forest with C Lugh or something, he's running a death chance. That just screams "more of a hinder than a help".

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14 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:03 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
ThunderMan wrote:In addition to thieving like Chad, Asthol can help in combat and unlike Chad, you don't have to raise his weapon level or take earlygame EXP from others.
I really don't like that logic because then it puts more emphasis on late joining units. If Chad were really bad in combat for a while, that would be fine, but I recall him helping out pretty well with good avoid against some Axe weilding enemies.
Neither do I. But it's true in this case, most emphasis is on their thieving utility and in maps where you're going to deploy 1 thief and you have both Chad and Asthol to choose from, Chad is obviously obsoleted.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
I think the most emphasis should be put on their thieving, and that makes Chad > Astol for sure. Same tier, fine, I don't care (I think FE9 Volke and Sothe should be in the same tier as well), but I can't see some mediocre combat actually making Astol better.
Most emphasis IS already put on their thieving and that IS why they're so high. Mediocre > Shit. Seeing as how Asthol is the better thief upon his join time, you've more reason to field him over Chad if you're going to deploy just one thief and thus, Asthol is obtaining more items for you than Chad.

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15 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:16 pm

Mekkah wrote:Chad's combat does start out really bad. Whatever doesn't one-shot him leaves him with like 1-2 hp, and everything with an axe does one-shot him. So unless he attacks from a forest with C Lugh or something, he's running a death chance. That just screams "more of a hinder than a help".
Really? Looking at Ch 4 Pirates right now, I see 15 atk with a Hand Axe and 16 with an Iron Axe, not a OHKO at all. The Iron Axe guy has 74 Hit, so place Chad in the Forest and it's 19 displayed, 14 if he's managed C Lugh (Possible, maybe not likely yet). The Hand Axe guy has 58 Hit, so only 3 displayed in a Forest.

Brigands in Ch 5 are worse all around, so I won't even bother posting them (they have worse Hit and atk). The max atk of Fighters is 18, so WTA says base Chad will survive one hit already. This chapter is terrain heavy though, and these guys are otherwise similar to the Ch 4 Pirates.

So I don't see why Chad can't get some Axe combat in. He doesn't do much damage, but it's not like anyone is ORKOing yet.

ThunderMan wrote:
Neither do I. But it's true in this case, most emphasis is on their thieving utility and in maps where you're going to deploy 1 thief and you have both Chad and Asthol to choose from, Chad is obviously obsoleted.
What if Chad has a support with Lugh? If all they do is steal otherwise, I'd rather take the Thief that can at least help out a little bit in another way.


Most emphasis IS already put on their thieving and that IS why they're so high. Mediocre > Shit. Seeing as how Asthol is the better thief upon his join time, you've more reason to field him over Chad if you're going to deploy just one thief and thus, Asthol is obtaining more items for you than Chad.
No, neither one has an advantage in combat if neither goes into combat. Thus neither one gets any more credit for the stuff they get than the other in any given run of the game because you don't need stats for chests unless there's like, a place with Bolting Mages/Sages that Astol can take a hit from but Chad can't and it's reasonable that your Thief will end up in range of them as well.

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16 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:03 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
What if Chad has a support with Lugh? If all they do is steal otherwise, I'd rather take the Thief that can at least help out a little bit in another way.
Bring the inferior thief to have Lugh tag along with him for 5 avoid and 5 crit over bringing that superior thief that can help your entire team with some combat and Light Brand chip damage... hmm.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
No, neither one has an advantage in combat if neither goes into combat. Thus neither one gets any more credit for the stuff they get than the other in any given run of the game because you don't need stats for chests unless there's like, a place with Bolting Mages/Sages that Astol can take a hit from but Chad can't and it's reasonable that your Thief will end up in range of them as well.
Denying combat seems like sandbagging. Even if they don't NEED to fight an enemy to open chests and steal, you can't deny that Asthol killing an enemy with Killing Edge or weakening one with Light Brand IS a contribution.

@Bold: That does exist, reason why I brought up his durability. There's one instance where even base Asthol would be 1HKO by bolting by a Pure Water solves the issue.

You don't need stats other than Con and Aid to rescue a unit and move them around while avoiding enemy range but that's not changing the fact that you're better off bringing the superior one for this.

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17 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:18 pm

ThunderMan wrote:
Bring the inferior thief to have Lugh tag along with him for 5 avoid and 5 crit over bringing that superior thief that can help your entire team with some combat and Light Brand chip damage... hmm.
How good is Astol's chip damage even going to be with 7 Str and Swords (Not like it gets much better with 35% growth) at that point in the game? And what if we want someone else like Fir or Rutger or unpromoted Dieck to use Light Brand?

By the way, "inferior Thief" is incorrect. As Thieves, they are equal. As combatants, Astol wins, but it's a "Who cares?" kind of win. And I wouldn't be surprised if Chad can actually catch up/beat him in combat by the time we get to the Western Isles because of high experience gain and superior growths, like, everywhere.

And whenever chests are around (Astol's joining chapter has plenty) he's not chipping anything anyway. Sure, Chad isn't supporting Lugh unless enemies are around those chests (which they occasionally are), but that's why these advantages should not hold much, if any, weight, since you won't even be deploying them unless there's Thief work to be done or there's an extra slot available.

@Bold: That does exist, reason why I brought up his durability. There's one instance where even base Asthol would be 1HKO by bolting by a Pure Water solves the issue.

Is it in Ch 16? Because that's the only place I can think of. And anyway, I'd like to see stats. I already showed some myself for Chad's early game, you can at least do the same.

You don't need stats other than Con and Aid to rescue a unit and move them around while avoiding enemy range but that's not changing the fact that you're better off bringing the superior one for this.
Once again, if they never get attacked, it makes no difference. In fact, if we're deploying someone for the sole purpose of Rescue/Dropping, Juno is probably the best despite being one of the worst units in the game statistically because of flight, 8 move, and more Aid than the likes of Miledy and Zeiss.

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18 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:48 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
How good is Astol's chip damage even going to be with 7 Str and Swords (Not like it gets much better with 35% growth) at that point in the game? And what if we want someone else like Fir or Rutger or unpromoted Dieck to use Light Brand?

Yes, and Chad's 3 base strength (and thus 8 base might) is so much shinier...

Lessee though, Ashtor can slap on some Steel, or chip with the light brand for 10x2 damage. With steel, Ashtor has 16 mt. Against axers of the isles, even in chapter 14 in hte desert, they have 5 def. With WTA, that's 12x2 damage. Axers even as far in hte desert only have around 40 HP, so it's a nice 2RKO. This is him at base, no effort needed. Ashtor has a base avoid of 40. With WTA, he reduces steel and handies to null, meaning they have to work off their natural hit to hit him. Base Ashtor's only having 22 displayed. These are the stronger punks in the future. Those closer to home are having a far worse time.


By the way, "inferior Thief" is incorrect. As Thieves, they are equal. As combatants, Astol wins, but it's a "Who cares?" kind of win. And I wouldn't be surprised if Chad can actually catch up/beat him in combat by the time we get to the Western Isles because of high experience gain and superior growths, like, everywhere.

Chad starts his career OHKOd by loldiers. Ashtor on the other hand starts his career at least able to take a coulple loldiers, and then the isles starts where his superior weapon rank shines.

Wait, who cares? Well, I dunno about you? But I'd like to train a thief as to not get him killed by sniper mages. Ashtor makes this so much easier on you. At level 20, a mere 10 thief speed levels away, Ashtor can take a 38 mt blast from the bolting sages in chapter 20 (either route) with his 34 HP and 5 Res. Chaddy boy only has 32 HP and 2 Res, he will need holy water.

In fact, let's just compare directly.

20 Ashtor
34 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skill, 20 Speed, 12 Luck, 9 Def, 5 Res

20 Chad
32 HP, 12 Str, 12 Skill, 20 Speed, 15 Luck, 6 Def, 2 Res

Does 2 Str and 3 avoid really make up for 2 HP, 3 Def and 2 Res when it's far easier to train up Ashtor? No, it's not.


And whenever chests are around (Astol's joining chapter has plenty) he's not chipping anything anyway. Sure, Chad isn't supporting Lugh unless enemies are around those chests (which they occasionally are), but that's why these advantages should not hold much, if any, weight, since you won't even be deploying them unless there's Thief work to be done or there's an extra slot available.

Which case, Ashtor needing less protection should give him the gold in this situation.


Is it in Ch 16? Because that's the only place I can think of. And anyway, I'd like to see stats. I already showed some myself for Chad's early game, you can at least do the same.

16x has a bolting sage that has 33 mt. Ashtor at base has 25 HP, 3 Res. Indeed, a pure water does the trick. Chad would need 11 levels to do the same.

However, 16 is pretty much the only time you have to bring thieves to. Chapter 20 is the other, and both should be 20 by then. Ashtor can take a blast naturally by then, Chad would need some form of item.


Once again, if they never get attacked, it makes no difference. In fact, if we're deploying someone for the sole purpose of Rescue/Dropping, Juno is probably the best despite being one of the worst units in the game statistically because of flight, 8 move, and more Aid than the likes of Miledy and Zeiss.

To be honest, I must ask. Where the hell did this rescue argument come from? Seems sort of meaningless in this specific argument.

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19 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:08 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
Yes, and Chad's 3 base strength (and thus 8 base might) is so much shinier...
Point to where I said Chad's early chip damage was better than Astol's please.

Lessee though, Ashtor can slap on some Steel, or chip with the light brand for 10x2 damage.

What if I want someone that I actually want to train to use Light Brand, like Fir or Rutger or Dieck?

With steel, Ashtor has 16 mt. Against axers of the isles, even in chapter 14 in hte desert, they have 5 def.
By the Isles, yeah. By then Chad has probably caught up in Str, surpassed in Spd, and gotten B Lugh (45 turns from Ch 3). More avoid + more MT. So yeah. And don't try the weapon level thing, by this time Chad should definitely be at at least D for Steel.

Chad starts his career OHKOd by loldiers. Ashtor on the other hand starts his career at least able to take a coulple loldiers, and then the isles starts where his superior weapon rank shines.

Don't have him fight them? There's absolutely no reason either of these guys should engage a Soldier in combat unless it's to finish them off, and then there's no counter.

Wait, who cares? Well, I dunno about you? But I'd like to train a thief as to not get him killed by sniper mages. Ashtor makes this so much easier on you. At level 20, a mere 10 thief speed levels away, Ashtor can take a 38 mt blast from the bolting sages in chapter 20 (either route) with his 34 HP and 5 Res. Chaddy boy only has 32 HP and 2 Res, he will need holy water.
I don't have Sacae stats, but 20 Ilia only has Purge and Ballistae, all of which your Chad can survive. (Purge boy has 27 atk, Ballistae are worse)

In fact, let's just compare directly.

20 Ashtor
34 HP, 10 Str, 12 Skill, 20 Speed, 12 Luck, 9 Def, 5 Res

20 Chad
32 HP, 12 Str, 12 Skill, 20 Speed, 15 Luck, 6 Def, 2 Res

Does 2 Str and 3 avoid really make up for 2 HP, 3 Def and 2 Res when it's far easier to train up Ashtor? No, it's not.

Does it really matter when neither engage in combat at any time past a certain point in the game?

EDIT: I should also add in Astol's 38% chance to have less than 20 Spd (17% to be lower than 19) vs. Chad's practically guaranteed chance to have 20.

Which case, Ashtor needing less protection should give him the gold in this situation.
I was talking about a case where your Thief won't be getting attacked anyway, like Ch 8's chest rooms with chokepoints. If enemies are actually among the chests, you'll clear them out before sending your Thief in.

16x has a bolting sage that has 33 mt. Ashtor at base has 25 HP, 3 Res. Indeed, a pure water does the trick. Chad would need 11 levels to do the same.
16x also has no Chests nor anything to steal. Neither have a place in this map.

However, 16 is pretty much the only time you have to bring thieves to.
Yeah, let's check that out. The Bolting Mage on the right has 22 MT, the Purge Bishop on the left has 21. Chad only need to be ~level 8 to survive both, ~7 if he has B Lugh.

Chapter 20 is the other, and both should be 20 by then. Ashtor can take a blast naturally by then, Chad would need some form of item.
Already covered for Ilia at least.

Am I the only one using actual enemy stats here? Oh, aside from the one Bolting Sage Jackal pointed out. Mekkah said Chad gets OHKOd early on, I proved he didn't. ThunderMan and Jackal both tried to say he gets OHKOd by Bolting, I showed he doesn't (aside from possibly in Sacae). What is this?

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20 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:18 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
How good is Astol's chip damage even going to be with 7 Str and Swords (Not like it gets much better with 35% growth) at that point in the game? And what if we want someone else like Fir or Rutger or unpromoted Dieck to use Light Brand?
Well, Light Brand's always 10 damage and thanks to his base SPD there's little he'll not double so about 20. With Killing Edge, better than Chad since he'll need to be seriously used to be closed to having a C in Swords at this point.

Fir: Has Wo Dao... and seeing as how she's one of them underleveled units at join time, if you intend to use her seriously, you'll have her kill enemies, not weaken them. Also, she starts with D in Swords.

Dieck or Rutger: Valid I suppose. Neither will be unpromoted for long though and are probably doing better with a melee weapon.

Asthol can put it to use and didn't cost you a thing. Chad can't.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
By the way, "inferior Thief" is incorrect. As Thieves, they are equal. As combatants, Astol wins, but it's a "Who cares?" kind of win. And I wouldn't be surprised if Chad can actually catch up/beat him in combat by the time we get to the Western Isles because of high experience gain and superior growths, like, everywhere.
... Fine, inferior unit. Whatever the hell floats your boat.

Chad doesn't reach 7 STR until level 9 and at that point the only thing he's got above Asthol is SPD.

For that, Chad would have to see quite a lot of combat (yes he may have boosted EXP gain but it sure as hell ain't Elite/Paragon like) and just a while ago you were sandbagging Asthol by denying him any... hmm.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
And whenever chests are around (Astol's joining chapter has plenty) he's not chipping anything anyway. Sure, Chad isn't supporting Lugh unless enemies are around those chests (which they occasionally are), but that's why these advantages should not hold much, if any, weight, since you won't even be deploying them unless there's Thief work to be done or there's an extra slot available.

@Underline: ... First you say that Asthol isn't chipping anything and then you say that enemies are occasionally near the chests...

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap8.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap12.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap12x.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap16.htm

I see Asthol doing some chipping on these maps.

@Bold: Thieving + Mediocre combat and durability >>> Thieving + Shit combat and durability. Chad being able to take some stuff while Asthol ain't around just means he's not Rickard. Also, FoW.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Is it in Ch 16? Because that's the only place I can think of. And anyway, I'd like to see stats. I already showed some myself for Chad's early game, you can at least do the same.

One I can recall off the top of my head and have quick access to:







heh, got lucky enough to dodge all that.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Once again, if they never get attacked, it makes no difference. In fact, if we're deploying someone for the sole purpose of Rescue/Dropping, Juno is probably the best despite being one of the worst units in the game statistically because of flight, 8 move, and more Aid than the likes of Miledy and Zeiss.

That's not changing the fact that you're better off bringing the superior one for this. The rescue example was bad on my part due to the Con and Aid stuff. Pretend they had the same Con and Aid and then you should be able to see it.

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21 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:43 pm

ThunderMan wrote:
Well, Light Brand's always 10 damage and thanks to his base SPD there's little he'll not double so about 20. With Killing Edge, better than Chad since he'll need to be seriously used to be closed to having a C in Swords at this point.

Asthol can put it to use and didn't cost you a thing. Chad can't.
Valid, I suppose. But I still don't see why it's worth enough to make him better overall when you mostly won't use them except for Thieving utility.

For that, Chad would have to see quite a lot of combat (yes he may have boosted EXP gain but it sure as hell ain't Elite/Paragon like) and just a while ago you were sandbagging Asthol by denying him any... hmm.

No, I wasn't. I never said Astol can't see combat, I said neither one really have any reason to since the majority of their usefulness comes from Thieving. And Chad can at least chip in early chapters at no cost to the rest of my team.

@Underline: ... First you say that Asthol isn't chipping anything and then you say that enemies are occasionally near the chests...


http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap8.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap12.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap12x.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap16.htm

I see Asthol doing some chipping on these maps.
What? If there are chests, there's little to no chipping. Because, you know, they'll be opening the chests. 12x and 16 you probably want two thieves for anyway because the chests are on opposite sides of the map, and 12x is FoW with a lot of Axe weilding enemies. That's like Thief heaven.

@Bold: Thieving + Mediocre combat and durability >>> Thieving + Shit combat and durability. Chad being able to take some stuff while Asthol ain't around just means he's not Rickard.
Only, it doesn't take too long for Chad to catch up in combat.

However, the main point is still that there should not be that much emphasis on combat. Even if you never level Chad, Astol's chip damage does not last for long and should not be nearly enough to outweigh Chad's contribution earlier in the game.

But holy hell, I missed an extremely important point. Chest Keys. Buyable at Ch 7, 5 uses a shot. Thieves may as well be obsolete at this point entirely. If deploying the statistically superior unit is the better idea, I'm sure as hell I can find someone better than Astol by Ch 8 to take some Chest Keys, like Zealot or Marcus. If you want to spin the "Thieves are free" argument, bblader already showed that Chad gets you about 20k on his own, which can pay for 35 chests immediately, which can be seen as Chad's continuing contribution. Oh wait, he can steal one in Ch 6 as well, so 40. Are there even that many chests left in the game? And then there are times where you'll need a second Thief anyway so you it's not like you'll actually be buying that many Chest Keys unless you deploy two units with Chest Keys, which, if the situation calls for it, you might as well.

This doesn't need to be done right away either. More Chest Keys are buyable at Ch 11 and 15 to allow you to keep well equipped.

So even with Chad (and Cath) out of the picture, Astol does not have full claim to the remaining chests.

ThunderMan wrote:That's not changing the fact that you're better off bringing the superior one for this. The rescue example was bad on my part due to the Con and Aid stuff. Pretend they had the same Con and Aid and then you should be able to see it.
In that case I'd still take Juno because I don't have to promote her and I use Miledy for combat. Pretend they don't have to promote now? Okay, I'll take Juno because she's prettier than Zeiss. Oh, and she has some fast supports, so I might pull a C with Tate or something if I'm able to glue them together enough. I'm dead serious.

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22 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:39 pm

I really hate to keep going back to the Thany argument but I'm always left without a choice it seems. It isn't that difficult to get stuff within Chad's kill range in his joining chapter since Loldiers do have lol def, WTD or no, and due to EXP boost he gains a shitload from a kill. Furhtermore there's a whole swarm of pirates in C4 that are easy pickings for him.

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23 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:50 pm

... Damn it stupid browser froze when I was nearly done posting... -__-


Valid, I suppose. But I still don't see why it's worth enough to make
him better overall when you mostly won't use them except for Thieving
utility.
FOW.

No, I wasn't. I never said Astol can't see combat, I said neither one
really have any reason to since the majority of their usefulness comes
from Thieving. And Chad can at least chip in early chapters at no cost
to the rest of my team.

Only thing Roy has to do is seize. He doesn't have to level up to beat the game and his combat's taken into account anyway.

What Chad can chip is however limited due to E Swords. Asthol can use Armorslayer against Knights, Chad has to sit back.

What? If there are chests, there's little to no chipping. Because, you
know, they'll be opening the chests. 12x and 16 you probably want two
thieves for anyway because the chests are on opposite sides of the map,
and 12x is FoW with a lot of Axe weilding enemies. That's like Thief
heaven.

Chapter 8: Chests are in the middle and in the end of the map. Enemies are near your starting point. He can fight.

Chapter 12: If you take your thief for the left chests, you can have him fight (Asthol with the Light Brand) for example and THEN have him go for the chests when you're close to finishing the chapter. If he's on the right, fight some enemies, get Cath's Lockpick and then the chests.

Chapter 12x: One suffices. You can bring the thief for chests and stealing with a group while a different group takes the other area with a Torch and chest key. Like you said, it's thief heaven. Asthol doesn't mind being in range of an Axe user during the enemy phase so yeah... he's seeing combat.

Chapter 16: One suffices, you'll want to bring a thief to steal the Delphi shield and Member Card if Hugh's not being recruited, a different unit could bring door and chest keys, blah blah blah.

Only, it doesn't take too long for Chad to catch up in combat.

Your arguments about combat with thieves and Asthol's C rank in Swords disagree.

However,
the main point is still that there should not be that much emphasis on
combat. Even if you never level Chad, Astol's chip damage does not last
for long and should not be nearly enough to outweigh Chad's
contribution earlier in the game.

That being why Chad's not hitting low tiers. Fact of the matter is that Chad's obsoleted the second Asthol joins and he's better for a longer period.


But holy hell, I missed an
extremely important point. Chest Keys. Buyable at Ch 7, 5 uses a shot.
Thieves may as well be obsolete at this point entirely. If deploying
the statistically superior unit is the better idea, I'm sure as hell I
can find someone better than Astol by Ch 8 to take some Chest Keys,
like Zealot or Marcus. If you want to spin the "Thieves are free"
argument, bblader already showed that Chad gets you about 20k on his
own, which can pay for 35 chests immediately, which can be seen as
Chad's continuing contribution. Oh wait, he can steal one in Ch 6 as
well, so 40. Are there even that many chests left in the game? And then
there are times where you'll need a second Thief anyway so you it's not
like you'll actually be buying that many Chest Keys unless you deploy
two units with Chest Keys, which, if the situation calls for it, you
might as well.

This doesn't need to be done right away either. More Chest Keys are buyable at Ch 11 and 15 to allow you to keep well equipped.

So even with Chad (and Cath) out of the picture, Astol does not have full claim to the remaining chests.
Using Lockpicks over Chest Keys saves you money and most of the maps where you could bring either 2 thieves or 1 thief + someone with Chest keys have items you would wanna steal. So no, Chest Keys do not obsolete thieves.

If I were saying that Asthol has full claim to the remaining chests, I'd be trying to move Chad down a couple tiers. My argument in is that Asthol > Chad, the earlygame chests only Chad has access to are over-emphasized and Asthol's superior combat should be taken into account. Simple as that.

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24 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:55 pm

Never mind that there's a LOT of shit to steal. The Delphi shield alone warrants stealing.

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25 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:49 pm

ThunderMan wrote:FOW.
Fog-of-War? That's part of thieving utility.

Only thing Roy has to do is seize. He doesn't have to level up to beat the game and his combat's taken into account anyway.

Only Roy isn't tiered mostly on seizing for reasons we all know. The thieves are tiered mostly for thieving, not combat. Frankly, I must say this is a bad comparison.

What Chad can chip is however limited due to E Swords. Asthol can use Armorslayer against Knights, Chad has to sit back.
Like his weapon rank will never go up or something? Hell, he could probably reach D by the time Astol even show up.

Chapter 12x: One suffices. You can bring the thief for chests and stealing with a group while a different group takes the other area with a Torch and chest key. Like you said, it's thief heaven. Asthol doesn't mind being in range of an Axe user during the enemy phase so yeah... he's seeing combat.

Chapter 16: One suffices, you'll want to bring a thief to steal the Delphi shield and Member Card if Hugh's not being recruited, a different unit could bring door and chest keys, blah blah blah.
Wait, wtf? Chest Keys adequately replace Chad but not Astol? And you said I was sandbagging Astol. Chad can steal the same shit Astol can. What kind of BS is this?

By the way, in Ch 16, Chad doesn't mind being in the way of an Axe user, either.

Your arguments about combat with thieves and Asthol's C rank in Swords disagree.
Astol can do combat but Chad's not allowed. Great logic. In fact, bblader helped me out on this one in the previous post:
I really hate to keep going back to the Thany argument but I'm always left without a choice it seems. It isn't that difficult to get stuff within Chad's kill range in his joining chapter since Loldiers do have lol def, WTD or no, and due to EXP boost he gains a shitload from a kill. Furhtermore there's a whole swarm of pirates in C4 that are easy pickings for him.
Also remember with this Light Brand argument (that I'm not really buying but letting pass for the hell of it) means Astol isn't even gaining any more weapon experience as long as he uses it from afar.

That being why Chad's not hitting low tiers. Fact of the matter is that Chad's obsoleted the second Asthol joins and he's better for a longer period.
This argument is bullshit and is really beginning to piss me off. We don't auto-shit tier Sothe in
FE9 because Volke "obsoletes" him. I know that's not what you're trying to do with Chad, but if we follow this logic here, it would auto-shit tier Sothe in FE9. The only advantages Astol has are slightly better combat until Chad is able to catch up and better durability which becomes meaningless very fast.

Using Lockpicks over Chest Keys saves you money and most of the maps where you could bring either 2 thieves or 1 thief + someone with Chest keys have items you would wanna steal. So no, Chest Keys do not obsolete thieves.
Fuck yes, they do. I'm going to list some important things Chad gets for us before Astol shows up (This isn't including things that will be used):
13k raw Gold
Short Bow (880 Gold)
Goddess Icon (4k Gold)
Chest Key
Lockpick (1200 Gold)
Red Gem (3k Gold)
Up to 18 Vulneraries (up to 2700 Gold, let's say 900 for the sake of using and missing some)
That's 22980 Gold and 5 uses of Chest Key. I count 16 more Chests between chapters 8 and 15. If we buy only 1 Chest Key, we can have Astol open 6 in his joining map or in 12x or something, use Chest Keys for the others, then use the Silver Card to buy 6 sets of Chest Keys (4500) to last us for the rest of the game's 28 chests.

"But they can steal stuff"

The only thing I can see being worth stealing is the Delphi Shield, so maybe take one bought Chest Key away and have our Thief (that does not even have to be Astol at all. Cath could even do it) go on that one. Everything else is just sellables, but I honestly can't see it being of much value this late in the game when we should be fine with money since the Gems and stuff start coming at Ch 16.

If I were saying that Asthol has full claim to the remaining chests, I'd be trying to move Chad down a couple tiers. My argument in is that Asthol > Chad, the earlygame chests only Chad has access to are over-emphasized and Asthol's superior combat should be taken into account. Simple as that.
Chad's early game chests are over-emphasized but Astol's combat is not.

Lol.

By the way, I'm not saying Astol's combat is meaningless, just that it isn't really worth much (Similar to Volke in FE9 again). Chad can pass him up without too much effort and can support Lugh for full avoid if you want to get into things aside from what is the big point.

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26 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:04 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Fog-of-War? That's part of thieving utility.

Reason people promote staffers instead of keeping them staffers is because it allows them to justify keeping them later when others get staffs. Same with thief utility, you have to justify being there aside from just being able to do something that demands you pressing a button.


Only Roy isn't tiered mostly on seizing for reasons we all know. The thieves are tiered mostly for thieving, not combat. Frankly, I must say this is a bad comparison.

Right, he's ranked highly for his support contribution to the best units in the game. A sort of utility you could say.


Like his weapon rank will never go up or something? Hell, he could probably reach D by the time Astol even show up.

Chad=Ashtor with steel if he were easier to kill.

Then there's Light brand, Wyrmkiller, Lance Reaver, Killer edge, etc...


Wait, wtf? Chest Keys adequately replace Chad but not Astol? And you said I was sandbagging Astol. Chad can steal the same shit Astol can. What kind of BS is this?

Again, Ashtor can contribute something to the map aside from thieving, so he has every reason to be put in over Chad.


Astol can do combat but Chad's not allowed. Great logic. In fact, bblader helped me out on this one in the previous post:
I really hate to keep going back to the Thany argument but I'm always left without a choice it seems. It isn't that difficult to get stuff within Chad's kill range in his joining chapter since Loldiers do have lol def, WTD or no, and due to EXP boost he gains a shitload from a kill. Furhtermore there's a whole swarm of pirates in C4 that are easy pickings for him.
Also remember with this Light Brand argument (that I'm not really buying but letting pass for the hell of it) means Astol isn't even gaining any more weapon experience as long as he uses it from afar.

Thany doesn't even start near the level of fail Chad does, and she has more time+being less distracted, and has actual support options.

Reason Chad has a hard time saying he deserves combat is because he starts out horribly in that regard. Ashtor on hte other hand is at least usable in this sense right from the get go.


This argument is bullshit and is really beginning to piss me off. We don't auto-shit tier Sothe in
FE9 because Volke "obsoletes" him. I know that's not what you're trying to do with Chad, but if we follow this logic here, it would auto-shit tier Sothe in FE9. The only advantages Astol has are slightly better combat until Chad is able to catch up and better durability which becomes meaningless very fast.

Right, Sothe's 2 tiers below because he happens to be utter shit outside of thieving, sort of like Chad.

It's reverse here, for some bizarre reason.


Chad's early game chests are over-emphasized but Astol's combat is not.

Lol.

By the way, I'm not saying Astol's combat is meaningless, just that it isn't really worth much (Similar to Volke in FE9 again). Chad can pass him up without too much effort and can support Lugh for full avoid if you want to get into things aside from what is the big point.

I'm just saying they should be in the same tier, the early chests alone are a bit too valuable to just pass over.

As for Lou, it sucks that Ray's lower mid...T.T That 10 avoid doesn't exactly help Lou much though outside of later when he promotes, which point Chad's not welcome to all maps.

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27 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:13 pm

Grandjackal wrote:Reason people promote staffers instead of keeping them staffers is because it allows them to justify keeping them later when others get staffs. Same with thief utility, you have to justify being there aside from just being able to do something that demands you pressing a button.
What does that have to do with anything?

Right, he's ranked highly for his support contribution to the best units in the game. A sort of utility you could say.
And this proves...What exactly?

Chad=Ashtor with steel if he were easier to kill.

Then there's Light brand, Wyrmkiller, Lance Reaver, Killer edge, etc...
You people act like Chad will never reach C weapon rank.

Again, Ashtor can contribute something to the map aside from thieving, so he has every reason to be put in over Chad.
So can Chad, it's called fucking supporting Lugh like I've said 9,000 fucking times already. This he can do as long as Lugh is fielded, while Astol's (and Chad's) combat will get worse and worse to the point it's worthless. This is probably by around Ch 16 when everyone is promoting.

Thany doesn't even start near the level of fail Chad does, and she has more time+being less distracted, and has actual support options.
What the fuck is this shit? I already showed above how Chad can actually probably avoid tank some of the Axe weilding enemies, and you think he can't kill? Also, more time is 1 chapter and less distracted is bullshit in chapters that don't have chests, and the two I pointed out earlier just happen to be two of those.

Right, Sothe's 2 tiers below because he happens to be utter shit outside of thieving, sort of like Chad.

It's reverse here, for some bizarre reason.
Volke's only got 1 tier on him, and I think that should close.

I'm just saying they should be in the same tier, the early chests alone are a bit too valuable to just pass over.
Wha? I already said that myself in post #12.
Same tier, fine, I don't care (I think FE9 Volke and Sothe should be in the same tier as well), but I can't see some mediocre combat actually making Astol better.

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28 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:57 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Fog-of-War? That's part of thieving utility.

I thought thief utility was just Chests and stealing but if it includes FoW, then that pretty much debunks your argument about their thief utility being equal. If the move to reveal more of the map and are in range of an enemy, Asthol has better retaliation and survival thus making him the superior scout.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Only Roy isn't tiered mostly on seizing for reasons we all know. The thieves are tiered mostly for thieving, not combat. Frankly, I must say this is a bad comparison.
So, because you tier thieves based MOSTLY for thieving, their combat should play absolutely no part in their tiering? THE POINT IS THAT JUST BECAUSE THEIR MAIN USEFULNESS IS THIEF UTILITY, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEIR COMBAT CAPABILITIES SHOULD BE DISMISSED.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Like his weapon rank will never go up or something? Hell, he could probably reach D by the time Astol even show up.

You said:

I said neither one really have any reason to since the majority of
their usefulness comes from Thieving.


By this logic, he's not seeing much combat and to get D ranks in swords he needs 50 WEXP. Make up your mind.

I know he can reach a D if you use him seriously but if you use him mostly just for thief utility he's not using much combat and Armorslayer's WT may prevent him from doubling.


Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Wait, wtf? Chest Keys adequately replace Chad but not Astol? And you said I was sandbagging Astol. Chad can steal the same shit Astol can. What kind of BS is this?

By the way, in Ch 16, Chad doesn't mind being in the way of an Axe user, either.

O_O? When did I say Chest Keys replace Chad? The whole time I've been arguing I assumed he would be in C3-C8. You brought up the chest keys, I brought up reason why you would have at least 1 thief in such maps and Asthol is clearly the better one to bring due to points I've mentioned several times throughout this argument (durability, combat).

Neither does Asthol and his retaliation and survival is better.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Astol can do combat but Chad's not allowed. Great logic. In fact, bblader helped me out on this one in the previous post:
I really hate to keep going back to the Thany argument but I'm always left without a choice it seems. It isn't that difficult to get stuff within Chad's kill range in his joining chapter since Loldiers do have lol def, WTD or no, and due to EXP boost he gains a shitload from a kill. Furhtermore there's a whole swarm of pirates in C4 that are easy pickings for him.

Stop twisting my words.

What Chad can chip is however limited due to E Swords. Asthol can use Armorslayer against Knights, Chad has to sit back.


Which is true because he's doing poor or no damage to Knights before he can use Armorslayer, poor damage against Cavaliers in C4, Armors in C6 and some enemies in C7 (Wyvern Knight specially). I didn't say Chad isn't allowed to see combat. The reinforcements in C4 that are easy to feed to him are easy to feed to others as well and it may be better investment on someone else. Asthol didn't have to eat reinforcements to be able to use Killing Edge, Armorslayer or Light Brand and nor does he need EXP to use the Light Brand/Killing Edge. He can chip? Yes I'm not denying that.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Also remember with this Light Brand argument (that I'm not really buying but letting pass for the hell of it) means Astol isn't even gaining any more weapon experience as long as he uses it from afar.

I thought that by just mentioning ONLY Armorslayer, Killing Edge and Lightbrand would've been a clear message that Asthol's rank growing wasn't even on my mind. I already know this -__-

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
This argument is bullshit and is really beginning to piss me off. We don't auto-shit tier Sothe in
FE9 because Volke "obsoletes" him. I know that's not what you're trying to do with Chad, but if we follow this logic here, it would auto-shit tier Sothe in FE9. The only advantages Astol has are slightly better combat until Chad is able to catch up and better durability which becomes meaningless very fast.
For Chad to catch up he has to see a lot of combat and by your thief logic, it's not happening.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Fuck yes, they do. I'm going to list some important things Chad gets for us before Astol shows up (This isn't including things that will be used):
13k raw Gold
Short Bow (880 Gold)
Goddess Icon (4k Gold)
Chest Key
Lockpick (1200 Gold)
Red Gem (3k Gold)
Up to 18 Vulneraries (up to 2700 Gold, let's say 900 for the sake of using and missing some)
That's 22980 Gold and 5 uses of Chest Key. I count 16 more Chests between chapters 8 and 15. If we buy only 1 Chest Key, we can have Astol open 6 in his joining map or in 12x or something, use Chest Keys for the others, then use the Silver Card to buy 6 sets of Chest Keys (4500) to last us for the rest of the game's 28 chests.

"But they can steal stuff"

The only thing I can see being worth stealing is the Delphi Shield, so maybe take one bought Chest Key away and have our Thief (that does not even have to be Astol at all. Cath could even do it) go on that one. Everything else is just sellables, but I honestly can't see it being of much value this late in the game when we should be fine with money since the Gems and stuff start coming at Ch 16.

Like I said, using Lockpicks over chest keys saves you money and the more money you have, the more stat boosters you can buy from the secret shop. Boots on Roy, Rutger, Dieck and others would be a good investment. There's also some Gems for them to steal as well as a few promotion items


Red Fox of Fire wrote:
By the way, I'm not saying Astol's combat is meaningless, just that it isn't really worth much (Similar to Volke in FE9 again). Chad can pass him up without too much effort and can support Lugh for full avoid if you want to get into things aside from what is the big point.

No actually, that is what you've pretty much been implying, even if it's unintentional.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
It's not like they'll be fighting, since I don't recall Astol being
particularly good at join time and he doesn't really get better either.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
We both know they'll hit a wall called "I never promote" and will therefore be completely obsolete in combat anyway.

Yes, we do know that. Which is why training Chad is sort of a waste and that's necessary for Chad to NOT be obsoleted by Asthol when he comes in. Asthol doesn't care about training, he's fine just using Killing Edge and Lightbrand to help out your team with more than just thief utility.


You people act like Chad will never reach C weapon rank.
And you act like you don't have to put any fucking effort in making that happen.

Mekkah, say something.

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29 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:03 pm

ThunderMan wrote:I thought thief utility was just Chests and stealing but if it includes FoW, then that pretty much debunks your argument about their thief utility being equal. If the move to reveal more of the map and are in range of an enemy, Asthol has better retaliation and survival thus making him the superior scout.
Extra FoW vision is something only Thieves have, so I consider it part of thieving utility.

If the advantage even exists at all, it's very minor. There aren't that many FoW chapters and 8 vision means it should be easy to keep them out of enemy range or get someone in front of them when needed.

So, because you tier thieves based MOSTLY for thieving, their combat should play absolutely no part in their tiering? THE POINT IS THAT JUST BECAUSE THEIR MAIN USEFULNESS IS THIEF UTILITY, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEIR COMBAT CAPABILITIES SHOULD BE DISMISSED.

And I'm NOT. See next point.

You said:

I said neither one really have any reason to since the majority of
their usefulness comes from Thieving.


By this logic, he's not seeing much combat and to get D ranks in swords he needs 50 WEXP. Make up your mind.

I know he can reach a D if you use him seriously but if you use him mostly just for thief utility he's not using much combat and Armorslayer's WT may prevent him from doubling.
Here's the deal: Either BOTH fight, or NEITHER fight. If you're going to hype Astol's combat, you have to be fair to Chad and admit that he can gain levels as well, and will eventually beat Astol's combat. If they aren't going to fight because they are Thieves and have no reason to fight, neither has a combat advantage and Chad basically wins by default. Also, weapon rank won't mean a damned thing.

What I wanted to do originally was assume the no-fight route because neither is very good to start and both just end up sucking, so anything they gain won't amount to much, might even be just wasted. If Astol's combat is suddenly going to be an advantage for him, damn straight I'm going to mention what Chad can do in combat as well.

But even if we go with the combat route, it won't hold much weight. Enough to put them in the same tier but no more.

O_O? When did I say Chest Keys replace Chad? The whole time I've been arguing I assumed he would be in C3-C8. You brought up the chest keys, I brought up reason why you would have at least 1 thief in such maps and Asthol is clearly the better one to bring due to points I've mentioned several times throughout this argument (durability, combat).

Neither does Asthol and his retaliation and survival is better.
Astol being slightly better (and it's only slightly, if at all) does not give him sole claim to the Thief spot when Chad can due Thief duties just as well. That's my problem, you were only assuming it was Astol going to the map. Hell, it could be Cath doing the Thief work.

Stop twisting my words.

What Chad can chip is however limited due to E Swords. Asthol can use Armorslayer against Knights, Chad has to sit back.
I'm not twisting anything. What I was actually responding to was:
Your arguments about combat with thieves and Asthol's C rank in Swords disagree.
Which was a response to:
Only, it doesn't take too long for Chad to catch up in combat.
My argument about combat with Thieves is that it doesn't happen often or ever but then Astol's C rank in Swords suggest he's doing combat, so two points that already disagree with each other disagree with me, which doesn't really make sense since there are only two sides here in the first place. My other argument was saying how Chad can catch up in combat if that's being assumed, but then your response of those things "disagreeing" is telling me Chad is not able to catch up, aka he doesn't fight, since if he fights he'll catch up.

The reinforcements in C4 that are easy to feed to him are easy to feed to others as well and it may be better investment on someone else. Asthol didn't have to eat reinforcements to be able to use Killing Edge, Armorslayer or Light Brand and nor does he need EXP to use the Light Brand/Killing Edge. He can chip? Yes I'm not denying that.
If you're using your Thief as a fighter in the first place, you're going to give him kills just like every other unit, and Chad is good against the Axe using enemies, so he'll get to kill some of them. Kind of like Marcus only you might end up using Chad for a bit longer. The "eat reinforcements" thing really shouldn't fly here or Percival needs to go above Miledy since she needs kills to catch up to him in a similar way. I don't like this logic anyway:
may be better investment on someone else
Because it's getting into the negative utility of things, aka penalizing a unit for sucking in combat as well as being worse than others. Plus, having Chad kill might just be necessary depending on the situation, like if someone missed or there's no one else to do the job.

Also, a minor inconsistency, but Chad doesn't need to kill anything to build his weapon rank, it only helps.

Like I said, using Lockpicks over chest keys saves you money and the more money you have, the more stat boosters you can buy from the secret shop. Boots on Roy, Rutger, Dieck and others would be a good investment. There's also some Gems for them to steal as well as a few promotion items
I mentioned sellables already. And if you're guys aren't promoted yet, you probably don't plan on it. Oh yeah, and money who got for us? I listed the amount of money it would take to get the Keys for the remaining chests in the game; 4500, 3750 with a Thief on Ch 16 for the Delphi Shield. That's less than one Stat booster/promotion item. There are always arenas and all the items from villages that have given us money, I think we'll be fine, especially since, Robes aside, the boosters don't come until Ch 21 Secret Shop, one of the last shops in the game.

Yes, we do know that. Which is why training Chad is sort of a waste and that's necessary for Chad to NOT be obsoleted by Asthol when he comes in. Asthol doesn't care about training, he's fine just using Killing Edge and Lightbrand to help out your team with more than just thief utility.
Light Brand I can handle for now (even though you admitted to other units possibly wanting it), but Killing Edge? Hell no. If Astol is only "helping out the team," I'm not giving him that. I'm saving that thing for someone I actually want to have kill things.

And why do you always skip over Chad's Lugh support? Are you conceding it? If you are, I don't see how you can still argue Astol > Chad, since Chad's support will last as long as Lugh is around while Astol's combat deteriorates fast.

And you act like you don't have to put any fucking effort in making that happen.
No, I apply the proper amount. You act like it's too hard. There are plenty of Axe using enemies you can have Chad safely fight, and since he doubles them all he'll always get at least 2 WEXP.

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30 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:24 pm

but Killing Edge? Hell no. If Astol is only "helping out the team," I'm
not giving him that. I'm saving that thing for someone I actually want
to have kill things.

I was not referring to the Killing Edges obtained from Rutger and C7 specifically. I was thinking more about the ones you can buy from C13.

Red Fox of Fire wrote:And why do you always skip over Chad's Lugh support? Are you conceding
it? If you are, I don't see how you can still argue Astol > Chad,
since Chad's support will last as long as Lugh is around while Astol's
combat deteriorates fast.

Bring the inferior thief to have Lugh tag along with him for 5 avoid
and 5 crit over bringing that superior thief that can help your entire
team with some combat and Light Brand chip damage... hmm.

That's all I'm gonna say about it. Personally I don't see it as anything significant enough to warrant fielding Chad over Asthol. I care little about GBA supports and thus, arguments regarding these will likely involve some bad bias from me and I'm trying to avoid that as it were a fucking plague.

I'm not gonna bother with rest, Mekkah needs to say something because this shit's become one of those long repetitive arguments you typically have with Jackal and I HATE that.

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31 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:45 pm

Astol using armorslayer? Stop right there. We only get two of the damn things for most of the game and Astol doesn't even come close to ORKOing knights with them [and it fucks avo so he likely has to eat a huge counter which is a huge deal for him], so you are wasting precious armorslayer uses by giving Astol armorslayer. So yeah.

Similarly I see it as a colossal waste to give Astol the Killing Edge which is pretty much the only thing his C rank lets him do.

And like I said I hate to keep bringing this up since people are going to start associating me to Thany as smash is to Mia, but if we're going out of our way to baby Thany we can easily go out of our way to "baby" Chad. The worst thing he needs is just to swipe one or two [posssibly 3] loldier kills and a fighter or two in C3 [Which Dick can't ORKO so he needs backup anyway] Then the fighters in C4 are slim pickings and C5 has tons of axes. Chad's sucky start is being overblown, he does have some problems in his join chapter but he will easily be comparable to Astol by the time Astol actually joins. He needs some babying to get there, but nobody ever holds that against Thany. Oh, C5 is a heavily forested chapter [and theres forts too] so Chad has lots of terrain to hide on to avoid one shots/get enemy hit to pratically none existent levels.

I mentioned sellables already. And if you're guys aren't promoted yet, you probably don't plan on it. Oh yeah, and money who got for us?

Exactly, Thunderman just discarded the 20~k Chad and only Chad could acquire for us like nothing, he didn't even try to counter it. seriously wtf

The pro-Astol side isn't even taking into consideration Chad's 20k which is completely nonsensical.

But here, I'm going to sandbag the shit out of Chad and pretend he's only going to be level 6 by the time Astol joins.

Astol: 25 HP, 7 str, 14 AS, 7 def
Chad: 20 HP, 5.5 str, 15 AS, 3 def

Astol wins durability notably. Or does he? 20 ATK is all he needs to get 2RKOd like Chad and Loldiers have that with Iron, Knights do with Steel. The mages 2RKO them both obviously and I don't have stats on the mercs but neither should be fighting them anyway. Archers are the only enemy type Astol has a real win against.

But thief durability is a borderline non issue for this chapter anyway. I don't know about you guys but I never have any problem whatsoever keeping both of my thieves the hell away from any enemies I don't want them near. And don't say "But I would want Astol near more enemies than Chad!" because Astol is just as piss scared of getting 2-3RKOd and dealing a piddling sum back as Chad is. And consider the chapter structure, what excuse do you possibly have for Chad/Astol to EVER be attacked on the pattern of this chapter where the enemies are all just kind of in a long mazelike pattern in front of you. The only sneak attacks are the reinforcements and even they are not that difficult to deal with.

8x, why are you deploying thieves here? There are a few easy to nab axemen but you probably don't have the slots to spare so it's favoritism to assume either gets played here.

I'll admit the durability lead does come a lot more into play in the isles, but I really can't see how a peak win of 5 hp/4 def wins over 20k when it is hilariously easy to protect both of them from combat situations.

edit: Oh, my Thany shit wasn't ignored, my bad, I only just now saw it.

Thany doesn't even start near the level of fail Chad does, and she has more time+being less distracted, and has actual support options.

Bullshit. Complete bullshit. Base Thany [I don't care if she leveled she won't gain str] has 11 mt on Loldiers with Iron Lance. Chad has 7. Now that's a difference but consider that Lot leaves the saps with 2 HP anyway so they're both being put into kill margin. It is not that difficult to get Chad kills if you actually try.

Oh, and about the reinforcements shit, there's reinforcements, AND there's normal axemen, which, again, neither Dick nor Rutger can ORKO normally so they need backup either way. Chad can easily take several kills in this chapter simply because he pretty much has to if you wish to maintain efficiency. There's plenty to go around and due to Chad's EXP bonus he requires fewer kills anyway, you people are making kind of a ridiculous deal over Chad killing a few bandits that aren't even close to his fair share. It's the worst case of the exaggeration of negative utility I've seen since CATS tried to sandbag Rennac out of existing just because we had to tug L'Arachel in for a chapter.

Wait, did somebody just mention lancereaver too? Lmao. You only get TWO of those in the game [one is in C22 lmfao] and the other one isn't even that useful until C21 due to a lack of lance dudes [Unless you go Ilia route I guess] and I don't know about you but it is a giant fucking waste of time to have Astol TRY to fend off wyvern dudes with Lancereaver and it's 15 uses of glory. Stop assuming that Astol will get shit just because he has access to it.

Not even going to BOTHER addressing how ridiculous Wyrmslayer Astol is. So I don't want to hear "but Astol's combat outweighs 20k!" because Astol's combat sucks too. 10 str at max level. Pathetic.

And while it is true that Lugh support doesn't mean much, it's also true that there's no real reason to deny Chad it because Lugh has nobody better to B with. Hell Ellen's pretty slow so maybe A Chad B Ellen would be better.



Last edited by bblader1 on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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32 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:19 pm

Completely off topic, but I don't understand the Thany argument. Are we saying that its perfectly OK to baby Thany kills, and this isn't a large strike against her? Am I missing something here?

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33 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:22 pm

That's pretty much what everybody seems to think.

Whenever we slow down to make room for Thany to kill shit it's fine, but it's FAVORITISM if we have Chad and Lugh doing it in the exact same amount of time. It's also much easier to have Lugh kill cavs/pirates/pretty much everything in C6 that she'll just tickle but Thany gets better later gaiz so it's not a problem.

It's a massive double standard spawned by Thany fanboys and I'm sick of it.

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34 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:38 pm

But if it is actually worth doing in the long run, then the question is how much trouble does it cause? Unless she would be better utilized ferrying someone, what's the problem?

As for babying units, there is a checklist:

how easy is it to set up the kills?

how easy is it to prevent the unit to whom you are feeding kills to not die on enemy phase because of needing dangerous positions to KO the fed enemies?

does it cost us any turns at all (long run)?

In the long run, would the exp have been better spent elsewhere (ie, unit A was fed kills. is A + team at their resulting levels a better team than an A + team in which A is lower leveled and one or two units on the rest of the team have slightly higher levels)?

Whether or not Thany meets all or some of these guidelines only matters when discussing Thany. The relevant question in this topic is whether or not the other units meet these guidelines.

Just because unit A meets those guidelines, it does not necessarily mean that unit B meets those guidelines.

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35 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:36 am

But if it is actually worth doing in the long run, then the question is how much trouble does it cause? Unless she would be better utilized ferrying someone, what's the problem?

The problem is there's no consistency with sandbagging Lugh out of kills and saying it's just peachy keen for Thany when it's actually EASIER to give Lugh kills.

how easy is it to set up the kills?

Not as easy as Lugh.

how easy is it to prevent the unit to whom you are feeding kills to not die on enemy phase because of needing dangerous positions to KO the fed enemies?

Again not as easy as Lugh, what with 2-range not needing any dangerous positions.


does it cost us any turns at all (long run)?

For the above reasons, definitely no more than Lugh

In the long run, would the exp have been better spent elsewhere (ie, unit A was fed kills. is A + team at their resulting levels a better team than an A + team in which A is lower leveled and one or two units on the rest of the team have slightly higher levels)?

How long is "the long run"? Lugh performs much better than Thany when chapters start becoming wyvern infested, since he can Aircalibur chip and she can't do much outside of getting 2RKOd. In Sacae she has major issues because Nomads own her ass [Lugh has much less problems, he can heal and attack at 1 range] and so do ballistae.

In fact the whole reason Thany moved up was because she was assumed an early promotion. I declare Lugh can do the same too. What do we miss out on, units who can't attack turning into units with shitty offense? [Applies to Ellen and Clarine obviously, Saul doesn't really want to promote early] They just go from staffing all the time to staffing all the time, giving them shitty combat doesn't really make a difference. Lugh certainly has a decent claim on an early ring since it helps his own staff rank, he might actually get to Physic by the time they're buyable in 18.

Does Thany benefit more than getting babied than Lugh? If the answer is "yes", it's not so much of a difference that she deserves to be babied and he doesn't.

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36 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:00 am

bblader1 wrote:
But if it is actually worth doing in the long run, then the question is how much trouble does it cause? Unless she would be better utilized ferrying someone, what's the problem?

The problem is there's no consistency with sandbagging Lugh out of kills and saying it's just peachy keen for Thany when it's actually EASIER to give Lugh kills.

how easy is it to set up the kills?

Not as easy as Lugh.

how easy is it to prevent the unit to whom you are feeding kills to not die on enemy phase because of needing dangerous positions to KO the fed enemies?

Again not as easy as Lugh, what with 2-range not needing any dangerous positions.


does it cost us any turns at all (long run)?

For the above reasons, definitely no more than Lugh

In the long run, would the exp have been better spent elsewhere (ie, unit A was fed kills. is A + team at their resulting levels a better team than an A + team in which A is lower leveled and one or two units on the rest of the team have slightly higher levels)?

How long is "the long run"? Lugh performs much better than Thany when chapters start becoming wyvern infested, since he can Aircalibur chip and she can't do much outside of getting 2RKOd. In Sacae she has major issues because Nomads own her ass [Lugh has much less problems, he can heal and attack at 1 range] and so do ballistae.

In fact the whole reason Thany moved up was because she was assumed an early promotion. I declare Lugh can do the same too. What do we miss out on, units who can't attack turning into units with shitty offense? [Applies to Ellen and Clarine obviously, Saul doesn't really want to promote early] They just go from staffing all the time to staffing all the time, giving them shitty combat doesn't really make a difference. Lugh certainly has a decent claim on an early ring since it helps his own staff rank, he might actually get to Physic by the time they're buyable in 18.

Does Thany benefit more than getting babied than Lugh? If the answer is "yes", it's not so much of a difference that she deserves to be babied and he doesn't.

Other people should state whether or not they agree with your answers. If they don't, they should prove it. Anyway, if you are right then obviously Lugh should be getting a similar number of (giftwrapped) kills as Thany. If you are wrong then there may be reasons for her kill count to climb faster.

Of course, as your last sentence suggests, if you are only slightly incorrect in your answers, Lugh should surely get nearly as many free kills as Thany.

(Canto doesn't exist in this game, right? Babying Thany would likely be easier to justify if it did.)


As for "long run", it's a question of how long the babying lasts and how well the unit compares to the rest of the team once the babying ends. A combination of those two things determines whether it is more worth it for unit A in the long run than unit B. If A needs babying for 15 chapters and then is an 8 for 5 chapters afterwards (when the average unit is a 5), you could say A gives you a 15 in return. If B needs babying for 10 chapters and is a 7 for 10 chapters, again with an average unit being a 5, you could say B gives you a 20 in return. B is arguably more worth it in the long run. Other factors may come into play making A more worthwhile than B, or making B even more worthwhile than A than the numbers suggest, but the point is that long run can be as long as it takes. If the team suffers for a little time, but the gains outweigh the suffering, it is worth it.

In my generic example, both A and B are likely worth it, provided of course that the babying period was not overly strenuous (ie: didn't cost turns, or at least not more than are made up for later on. possibly other factors). Depending on specific circumstances either A or B may not be worth it. Hypotheticals like this don't actually have enough information for that to actually be determined.


Going back to what I said:
In the long run, would the exp have been better spent elsewhere (ie, unit A was fed kills. is A + team at their resulting levels a better team than an A + team in which A is lower leveled and one or two units on the rest of the team have slightly higher levels)?

I should think that would be clear, actually.

unit A is on the team since it is being rated. Maybe I shouldn't have said "long run", but "overall". That might actually be more clear.

Basically, throughout the whole game, is a fed unit A (many giftwrapped kills) and a slightly less fed "rest of team" better off than a not-fed (no giftwrapped kills) unit A and a slightly more fed "rest of team", keeping in mind that the number and identity of the units in the rest of the team are static in the comparison.

Early on there will likely be times where team "A is fed" is worse off than team "A is not fed", but hopefully "A is fed" will be better off than "A is not fed" more often (or by enough to offset a #of chapters deficit). Thus, in the long run, feeding A is then a justifiable practice (that's why I said "long run" before).

Obviously these arguments can and should apply to more units than just Thany.

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37 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:41 am

bblader1 wrote:That's pretty much what everybody seems to think.

Whenever we slow down to make room for Thany to kill shit it's fine, but it's FAVORITISM if we have Chad and Lugh doing it in the exact same amount of time. It's also much easier to have Lugh kill cavs/pirates/pretty much everything in C6 that she'll just tickle but Thany gets better later gaiz so it's not a problem.

It's a massive double standard spawned by Thany fanboys and I'm sick of it.
You're totally missing the point. I'm not Interceptor and I can't come up with some clever quip about how you're strawmanning, but giving enough kills to Thany so that she gets to level 10 by chapter 9 (9 levels in 8 chapters) has greater and sooner returns than giving enough kills to Lugh/Chad for them to do whatever they have to do in some later chapter.

And lol @ little competition for the first Guiding Ring. Saul and Clarine benefit more in the long term from the first Guiding Ring, and Ellen benefits more in the short term.

I also agree with Chad and Astohl in the same tier, but not with Astohl > Chad. Neither are worth giving EXP to in the long run (later chapters with Bolting sages are better left to promoted units with Chest Keys). Chad has an availability advantage with earlygame maps while Astohl has a combat/durability win that doesn't really mean anything other than the fact that it gives him the primary thief position and relegates Chad to secondary thief (more on this later). Neither are worth deploying in maps that don't require thief utility - units not locked to swords are superior deployment choices, and units locked to swords like Fir, Rutger, Dieck, and Oujay are simply better.

Astohl's existence doesn't obsolete Chad entirely. For example, in chapter 8, it is still much more efficient to deploy 2 thieves instead of 1, since 1 thief will end up being occupied in the first treasure room. In chapter 12, the chests are on opposite sides of the map, so good luck getting those with only 1 thief. In chapter 14, 2 thieves are optimal for finding all of the treasure on that map (I found all treasure in 11 turns on my 0% growths run). In chapter 16, the 2 treasure rooms are on opposite sides of the map. So the difference between Chad and Astohl is that with regard to thief utility, Chad is around for longer. While both exist, they are equal, because both are needed. Astohl wins combat and durability, but this advantage doesn't really compare to Chad getting chests from chapters 3 through 7. So Chad > Astohl.

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38 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:28 am

You're totally missing the point. I'm not Interceptor and I can't come up with some clever quip about how you're strawmanning, but giving enough kills to Thany so that she gets to level 10 by chapter 9 (9 levels in 8 chapters) has greater and sooner returns than giving enough kills to Lugh/Chad for them to do whatever they have to do in some later chapter.

so what? The end justifies the means? Thany gets kills and Lugh can't because of circumstances that won't affect anything until 8x? And considering how much easier it is to give Lugh kills, I'm of the opinion that "gets more out of it" and "can get them easier" cancel each other out.

An of course, C6 has lots of armors that Lugh needs to at least weaken unless you want to go flushing armorslayer uses down the drain.

And lol @ little competition for the first Guiding Ring. Saul and Clarine benefit more in the long term from the first Guiding Ring, and Ellen benefits more in the short term.

Saul only has three chapters to level so him using it yet is questionable, and I already addressed Ellen/Clarine. They go from having no offense to having shitty offense. How is this an improvement?

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39 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:54 pm

Not only do Ellen/Clarine have shitty offence, but the first Lighting tome doesn't even come until its buyable in Chapter 11. So actually, Saul and Ellen have no offence until then.

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40 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:12 pm

bblader1 wrote:so what? The end justifies the means? Thany gets kills and Lugh can't because of circumstances that won't affect anything until 8x?
I did not say that Lugh can't get kills. Try again without a strawman. More investment in Thany is justified because the player can reap greater benefits sooner. Part of the reason why this doesn't work the same way for Lugh is because we can put the same effort in before chapter 8x and he still won't see an incredible improvement in chapter 9.

bblader1 wrote:Saul only has three chapters to level so him using it yet is questionable, and I already addressed Ellen/Clarine. They go from having no offense to having shitty offense. How is this an improvement?
IOS wrote:Not only do Ellen/Clarine have shitty offence, but the first Lighting tome doesn't even come until its buyable in Chapter 11. So actually, Saul and Ellen have no offence until then.
Lugh joins effectively 2 chapters earlier than Saul, but 4 levels lower, so there will never be a circumstance where Lugh can promote but Saul can't. That only brings into question of whether one should promote Lugh early (say chapter 9 or 10) or wait until chapter 11 to promote Saul.

Just because we get a Guiding Ring early doesn't mean that it's best to use it immediately. Early promotion is not a shortcut to greatness. In fact, promoting Lugh early hurts him immensely. 10/1 Lugh has 11.5 AS. This is compared to --/1 Klein who starts with 12.8 AS. Do we really want to use a promotion item to get a shittier Klein? Furthermore, with a diminished leveling speed, Lugh will encounter doubling problems throughout the whole game. We established that 14-15 AS is enough to double enemies in midgame, which Lugh won't reach until 10/6 to 10/8, a level more suited for a unit near endgame. Therefore, Lugh shouldn't be promoting at the earliest possible opportunity, which means that when he can promote, Lightning is buyable in the vendor.

In contrast, Clarine reaches the "magic" AS at 10/1 (she has 15.5). By promoting early, she essentially loses 3 mag over the long run, which is actually scaled down considering that she will be gaining levels at an accelerated rate. But she also starts to build up anima WEXP. That 3 mag loss is made up for with the extra 3 MT she gets from reaching C rank anima instead of being stuck at E.

It's a similar case with Saul, except he loses a bit more mag and his spd at 10/1 isn't exactly comfortable, though 14.25 spd is definitely a lot better than whatever Lugh has, and by the time chapter 16 or so rolls around, he should have at least 15 AS.

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41 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:12 pm

Would anyone object to putting Asthol merely in High Tier rather than above Chad?

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42 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:58 am

Mekkah

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Not me.

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43 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:12 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Astol be in High on Ilia as well?

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44 Re: Chad vs Asthol on Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:06 pm

naturally

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