Gilliam Bojangles should rise

Really now. Quickly compare him to Garcia who is currently in upper mid. Garcia is a bit faster. 4 more spd, but 7 base doesn't double much early on (too lazy to bring up numbers though, my guess is that he's doubling loldiers, knights, and severely weighed down enemies, and Gilliam might actually double loldiers and knights after he gains 1 spd since those enemies like having 0 AS), and with only a 20% spd growth anything he does double he won't do so for long. He's going to rely heavily on Garm (braves won't really count as Gilliam can use them too).

But take a look at the durability difference. The def gap is the same as the spd gap, but the growth disparity is huge. 55 to 25 (and 30 spd for Gilliam to Garcia's 20). In addition, since these units are on the slower end, they will get doubled. But the enemies doubling Gilliam are things like SMs that do pitiful damage to him (watch out for mage knights in lategame though, but they might double Garcia too). Garcia isn't going to be able to shrug off their attacks, especially if they crit him.

Or to make another comparison to another upper mid unit. Eir route Duessel. By the time he joins, Gilliam has better raw stats, and gains levels much faster (like, 20/1 to 20/, and the only way Duessel is even going to compete from ch 15 onwards is if he manages to get his axe rank up for Garm, but that is going to take some time as he's not going to double much (granted, neither will Gilliam) which will hinder his WEXP gain, and Garm is still limited uses. Basically, the only way Duessel could win is if Gilliam was negative utility beforehand.

Or yet another comparison to yet another upper mid unit, Joshua. They're pretty much polar opposites. Joshua has poor durability (though earlygame it's okay) and Gilliam has bad offense. Joshua's offense starts off great but slowly gets worse over the game (his spd becomes overkill as more units start doubling, and his str growth bites him in the ass), while Gilliam's durability is among the best in the game aside from a few shaky earlygame chapters. So why is there a tier gap between the two?


I think Gilliam should move above Garcia.

Hm...

One thing Garcia does have is he can double some slowass enemies while Gilliam is kind of stuck not doubling a whole lot. Knights disappear in Eirika route pretty fast (they don't really show up until C13 IIRC) though Ephraim route should have some wandering about (C11, C13, C14, C15)... but I can't quite recall. Anyway, being a godmode tank helps a lot by promotion. The problem is, well, getting there. Brigands come eerily close to doubling Bojangles early on (remember Ross and how we hammered on him because he gets doubled by a couple of these freaks?). Aside from that, nothing really burns into my mind in the beginning that doubles him...

I'm also too lazy to look up stats, but recalling from what I gathered from the partial Ephraim run that I did (I lost my old DS Lite so I couldn't continue it) Gilliam doesn't SEEM to get doubled. The problem might arise after though, since he only lands about 10 Spd by 20/1 (it's 9.8 but w/e). Thankfully his whopping 42 HP | 20 Def makes him nearly invincible against most units.

The few problems that I forsee are his 4 Mov really, REALLY slowing his potential down. First off, most of his support list has some Mov on him (Franz, Garcia, lolNeimi) and his supports are pretty damn slow (10+2s except Garcia which is 0+2). I guess it helps that Molduh doesn't have much better of options really since Colm only matches the affinity better with 5 extra turns in comparison to Gilliam (0+2 is gross).

tl;dr version: I can see Gilliam jumping a few slots, though it depends on how much weight we put on durability and lack of doubling (and also his Mov issues early on).

Looking at it now I think the section from Gilliam to Garcia in general could probably use a re-organization.

Eirika Route Duessel has weapon levels and Speed over Gilliam and is already fairly tanky with good Attack, so I could maybe see someone making a case for him lategame, but yeah, Gilliam is not negative before then so Gilliam wins overall regardless.

I recall Eirika Route Cormag being notably faster and having massive mobility win as being a factor in Gilliam as low as he is. Though those same factors should probably make Eirika Route Cormag above Eirika Route Duessel anyways. Garcia/Gilliam vs Eirika Route Cormag seems basically whether their availability win offsets him becoming better than them shortly after he shows up.

Myrrh doesn't really deserve to be above any of these people IMO, so that leaves Tana's position. Does she stay right above Myrrh while Gilliam passes her on his way up, or should she be above any others?

One thing Garcia does have is he can double some slowass enemies while Gilliam is kind of stuck not doubling a whole lot. Knights disappear in Eirika route pretty fast (they don't really show up until C13 IIRC) though Ephraim route should have some wandering about (C11, C13, C14, C15)... but I can't quite recall. Anyway, being a godmode tank helps a lot by promotion. The problem is, well, getting there. Brigands come eerily close to doubling Bojangles early on (remember Ross and how we hammered on him because he gets doubled by a couple of these freaks?). Aside from that, nothing really burns into my mind in the beginning that doubles him...

the axemen that double him in the earlygame chapters is still a 2RKO, while it was a ORKO on Ross (there is hit problems, but that's another story). And they're only really prominent for chapters 2-3. Chapter 4 is lolmonsters, and by chapter 5 we have a much greater variety of enemies and Gilliam could have possibly gotten +1 spd.

Yeah, Garcia is a bit faster so he doubles more enemies. I have my doubts that it's significant enough to overcome the giant durability lead Gilliam has, especially since as the game goes on Gilliam closes the spd gap (10 higher growth, and gains 1 more on promotion, assuming General Gilliam and Hero Garcia. Garcia has to take the Garm, more or less).

The few problems that I forsee are his 4 Mov really, REALLY slowing his potential down. First off, most of his support list has some Mov on him (Franz, Garcia, lolNeimi) and his supports are pretty damn slow (10+2s except Garcia which is 0+2). I guess it helps that Molduh doesn't have much better of options really since Colm only matches the affinity better with 5 extra turns in comparison to Gilliam (0+2 is gross).

Gilliam doesn't relaly care about supports. It gives him more durability, but he already has lots anyway.

move issues are generally blown out of proportion, as he's only slightly less mobile than your normal foot units.

I recall Eirika Route Cormag being notably faster and having massive mobility win as being a factor in Gilliam as low as he is. Though those same factors should probably make Eirika Route Cormag above Eirika Route Duessel anyways. Garcia/Gilliam vs Eirika Route Cormag seems basically whether their availability win offsets him becoming better than them shortly after he shows up.

Well, you can't ignore Gilliam's durability lead, and if people consider Gilliam's performance before Cormag joins to be a positive then that's something else.

I do think Eir Cormag is at least > Eir Duessel though, and likewise Gilliam (and Garcia for that matter) > Eir Duessel.

Myrrh doesn't really deserve to be above any of these people IMO, so that leaves Tana's position. Does she stay right above Myrrh while Gilliam passes her on his way up, or should she be above any others?

Haven't looked at Tana's stats in awhile. My feeling is that her start is too poor and she's not durable enough to rise.

Uh, why on earth would Gilliam take General over Great Knight, smash? >_>

ChaosNinji wrote:Uh, why on earth would Gilliam take General over Great Knight, smash? >_>

move issues are generally blown out of proportion, as he's only slightly less mobile than your normal foot units.

That's the only reason I can think of, and even then it's quite "lol" when Great Knight accomplishes the better Mov, same WTC, and also a boost in the Hammer ranking (E from General, D for Great Knight). Also get a little more Con from it too, for all it's worth (Great Knight btw).

So yeah, I too fail to see why General would even be slightly considered.

I picked general because it has a +1 higher spd promo bonus. General is also the one with the 2 higher con.

Granted, I didn't know GKs get a higher axe rank.

Eh, how much terrain does herr Bojangles have to wade through? Being mounted and all may actually mean he has WORSE overall move than general. IO recall midlate chapters being pretty cramped on them [ex Darkling Woods] so...

Generals usually have more movement penalties over terrain than GKs...

Nevermind about Con, I was looking at Mov. Anyway, the Spd barely matters here since Gilliam wasn't doubling much in the first place, and by the time Generals arrive he should have 11-12 AS as a Great Knight.

nflchamp wrote:Generals usually have more movement penalties over terrain than GKs...

Generals take 2 move to go over Forests.
GKs take 3.

General wins.

I'd like to see a full comparison between Garcia and Gilliam before making any changes.

Here's a somewhat lazy comparison..call it the groundwork.

Starting out on ~Ch3...I'm leaving out some slightly more tedious to calculate stats to focus on their most relevant stats: hp, atk, def, AS.

With Iron:
6/0 Gilliam: 16.9 atk, 3.6 AS - - 10.8 avo, 26.8 hp, 10.1 def
4/0 Garcia: 16.0 atk, 7.0 AS - - 17.0 avo, 28.0 hp, 5.0 def

Garcia wins offense against most brigands due to WTN vs WTD, but he loses vs the Thief and the Merc for all it matters. Garcia can ORKO all Ch4 Revenants while Gilliam needs to proc that 30% spd for it. On the other hand, Gilliam can't die against anything but Brigands (and that's if you push him), so it's basically offense+1 mov vs defense.

The soldiers of Ch5 are about the same as Renevants, except Garcia does better against them defensively. Some axe users may double Gilliam if he didn't get Spd, so then he loses his durability lead.

I expect Gilliam's "level lead" to dissolve over time so I don't really care for it anymore past this point.

Looking at, say, Ch9. 11/0 seems fair?

Gilliam w/ Iron: 19.2 atk, 5.1 AS - - 31.3 hp, 12.8 def
Garcia w/ Iron: 20.6 atk, 8.4 AS - - 33.6 hp, 6.8 def

Ch9 [Eir] is a mix of Pirates, Mercs, Archers and Soldiers, I think it's obvious who wins offense/defense against what.

Also, I should probably mention supports somewhere around here. Garcia can get Ross, but Ross also provides competition for nice axes and stuff (and of course Spd rising items, but Gilliam wants those too), but I'm gonna assume supportless for now. If anyone gains things from them, it's Garcia, as his supports help his offense more. Gilliam mostly gains defense from them, but he's nearly invincible already.

After promo (Gilliam is GK, Garcia Hero), both have axes. Gilliam has the whole weapon triangle now. With Iron Axes...they can also use Steel of course, but the atk gap remains the same.

20/1 Gilliam: 26.2 atk, 9.8 AS - - 27.4 avo, 42.4 hp, 19.7 def
20/1 Garcia: 27.2 atk, 12.2 AS - - 33.8 avo, 44.8 hp, 11.0 def

And then lategame, with steel this time:

20/10 Gilliam: 33.2 atk, 12.5 AS - - 35.5 avo, 50.5 hp, 24.6 def
20/10 Garcia: 35.2 atk, 14.0 AS - - 41.0 avo, 52.0 hp, 13.2 def

So yeah, half assed sum-up. Garcia has a slight Spd lead that may let him double slightly more often, especially if Speedwings come into play. And when these guys double, they're ORKOing instead of 2RKOing, so that's very significant. And Garcia gets more offense out of supports, most importantly crit so he one-shots things more often.

On defense, Gilliam is invincible against melee while Garcia is just durable. They can both get full avo from supports, but Garcia's supports are probably more convenient overall.

Gilliam wins at supports. Garcia's only reasonable option is Seth, with his other options either sucking, joining late, or being Gilliam. If Garcia can get that support, then Gilliam can get Franz and at a slightly faster rate, since the move gap is the same and Franz has to stick closer to the rest of your army than Seth does. And then Gilliam has a reasonable Moulder support on top of that.

Assuming those 3 supports, they get similar Atk gains from supports, but Gilliam gets more crit and defense (and it does help against some stuff, namely magic), and Moulder actually appreciates getting Gilliam's support. Gilliam sticks close to the group unlike Vanessa flying away or Colm taking looting detours.

Moving on to actual stats stuff.

Gilliam wins defense pretty much always. He's borderline for getting doubled in Ch 2, then all Ch 3 Brigands have 6 Spd. Ch 5 he's still borderline for getting doubled by axes, but unlike Ch 2 axes aren't basically the only enemy type, and he's winning defense against all the chap's non-axe enemies. He probably loses defense for Ch 2, but then wins in increasing amounts from Ch 3 onward.

For offense, Garcia's 7 Spd doubles nothing in Ch 5 except loldiers and Gilliam has similar Atk. Gilliam is borderline on doubling loldiers though and his acc problems vs axes matter more than Garcia's acc problems vs swords, so Garcia still wins offense. Gilliam wins defense by atleast as much though. If both are attacked by a 17 Atk Fighter and a 12 Atk Archer, Gilliam loses less Hp than Garcia even if the Fighter is doubling him, and he's borderline on getting doubled in the first place. And soon Gilliam is no longer getting doubled by anything except sword enemies that tink him, at which point I'd argue his defensive lead > Garcia's offensive lead.

As for midgame stats, I can provide this snippet, since there are some Ch 13 Eir AS values recorded in one of my debaets on serenes. A L14-15 Garcia in Ch 13 has 9 Spd, and that doubles nothing in this chapter except Knights and loldiers, which presumably Gilliam can also double. Garcia actually gets doubled by Rangers in this chapter. And obviously Gilliam wins defense by alot.

Likewise, glancing at those 20/10 AS values, I know just from memory that Garcia's 14 AS isn't reliably doubling any of Ch 19's enemies except Generals and Druids, which Gilliam can also double with ease. And I would expect them to be a bit lower than 20/10 during Ch 19 anyways.

With this in mind I think it's pretty clear that Gilliam wins, or at least has a case. Other than 1 move, higher Spd is Garcia's only significant advantage, while Gilliam has that big and obvious defense win that I don't need to explain. Ofcourse, Garcia does also have Garm and the Brave Axe which give him a big boost in offense, but those only show up for the last third of the game, and without them I'd argue a clear win for Gilliam. So I would certainly agree that, at the least, the tier gap should be eliminated and Gilliam should go up.

I moved Gilliam above Garcia on both lists. He ended up passing some other people like Innes in the process, btw.