Fire Emblem Genesis

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Boyd (T) > Oscar

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1 Boyd (T) > Oscar on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:37 am

Before I go into actual comparisons, just look at what the transfer did. Same Spd base as Haar but 15% higher growth, and only one below Oscar himself. 50 HP base (3 from capping) and 24 Str base allows him to 2HKO Warriors in 3-P with a Steel Axe and Halberdiers with the Short Axe, as well as being in 4HKO range on Generals with the Killer Axe (So a crit + hit kills). Oscar always has lower Str and always uses weaker weapons.

But the Spd saves Oscar, right? Well, not entirely. 21 Spd doesn't double much in 3-P and 3-1 that 20 Spd doesn't (A few Sages and Generals [lol at Oscar attacking them], and then some with 16 AS also). The following is going to be a bit of a longshot, but I'm trying it anyway. Speedwing on Boyd at 3-2. Assuming he did not gain a Spd level yet, this allows him to double a whopping 39 enemies he couldn't before. Assuming he did get Spd, he can now double 23 more enemies (Same guys + a Halberdier). It isn't as epic as that in the next few maps, but it pretty much allows him to double Generals and Sages forever where he would've been very borderline or outright not doubling before, and doubling Generals with his naturally massive Str, Fire affinity, and Axes I'd say is a good thing since a lot of units have trouble dealing significant damage to them.

Here's the controversial issue: What about the competition for a Speedwing? Well, it was previously decided that Titania and Haar (w/Crown) are the Wing candidates, and only two Wings are available. However, this is Boyd (T) we're discussing, so his team will have other transfer units. Is it fair to assume his team will have Titania (T) as well, and therefore she won't need a Wing? I'd say it's reasonable to assume so given how well the combination would work out in the end. Either that or perhaps Boyd (T) taking a Wing to double is more efficient than Haar taking a Wing and Crown to double.

But what about Oscar? Well, I think it's pretty obvious that as long as both or neither double (and since the Wing ties their Spd or pulls Boyd ahead and Oscar caps it fast while Boyd goes higher, this will only tip in Boyd's favor) Boyd will be doing more damage. Durably, Boyd has 12 base HP while Oscar has 2 Def, 5 Res, 7 base avoid, and Earth affinity. Growth wise, Boyd beats Oscar in Def by 20% (Boyd's HP caps in 3 levels, so that's not worth mentioning here), so that gap will close (lv 16 Boyd and 18 Oscar have roughly equal Def, Boyd winning by .2) and the HP gap only gets bigger.

The affinity is a major advantage for Oscar, right? Well, sort of. Funny thing is that their best partners are likely going to be each other. Oscar desperately needs the atk boost and Boyd doesn't need much aside from what his own affinity gives, though the avoid is obviously nice. They also have the brotherly Bond for +10% crit each, which will stack nicely with Killer weapons.

Things go like this for a while. Both mostly double the same stuff until nearing promotion where Boyd wins, then Oscar promotes and might win (still notably less Str even with BEXP help, and Sol sucks), then Boyd promotes and beats him to the ground (BEXP can help him get more Spd) for the rest of the game. 20/1 Oscar will have 26 Spd, it's almost guaranteed and can only go lower anyway. Boyd will have 29. If this happens by 3-E, 29 AS doubles everything except 3 SM's. 26 only misses a few enemies (all SM's and a few others), but Boyd is clearly winning. (btw, level 18-19 Boyd in 3-10 and 3-11 was doubling most everything anyway, so if Oscar won at all before promotion it wasn't by a lot).

EDIT: Actually, I forgot to add the transfer (or the Wing, I guess) when I was looking at some numbers, and level --/17 Boyd already ties 20/1 Oscar in Spd, so promoted Oscar never really has an advantage aside from 13% Sol activation, but level 17 Boyd is already ORKOing everything he doubles in 3-10 and 3-11 (Note that he doubles everything aside from SM's and bosses, even Halbs and Warriors) even without his support bonus sometimes (Even Generals with a Steel forge/Poleax), though he needs the support for them). So unpromoted Boyd is still > promoted Oscar since 100% ORKO (or whatever it is with Boyd's Hit rate) > Oscar's ~24% chance on whatever he doesn't 2HKO while doubling (which Oscar needs crazy high Str, max MT Steel forge and a +atk support to do most of the time [only the Str is questionable, the forge is fine and Boyd provides the support]).

Come the rest of part 4 and Endgame, it's too obvious. Oscar never closes that 3 point promotion Spd gap since he caps too fast and Boyd always does more damage for obvious reasons (more Str, stronger weapons, better mastery activation, and more crit). Boyd can double all Spirits from ~20/11 while Oscar can only double Thunders. Boyd can use Nasir to double Auras (and, IIRC, ORKO some) while Oscar...can't.

Now, I realize I left out +2 move and Canto, but I don't honestly think that's going to let Oscar pull a win since Boyd (T) cleans him statistically for like the entire game as long as he can get a Speedwing. He probably even wins at times without a Wing, who knows? (EDIT: Later in part 3 and part 4 he does) And then Boyd also becomes superior durably if he wasn't already (12 HP is a lot), so it would be safer to send Boyd into enemies rather than Oscar anyway. In fact, if the Wing is acceptable, I could see Boyd (T) going a lot higher, since doubling with his high Str would put him on a similar level to Gatrie with less durability and somewhat less Str but with better mobility.

I'm tired now, so read and discuss. If Boyd (T) > Oscar is accepted, this can be a topic about Boyd (T) to see how much higher he can go.

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2 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:21 am

I don't know that this is such a long shot. Basically it looks like this entire comparison comes down to the cost of Boyd (T)'s Speedwing. Combatwise, Oscar doesn't stand a chance if Boyd can double.

So the problem is the same one that always exists: are there other transfer units on Boyd's team? I maintain that there are not. If we compare Boyd's team with transfers to Oscar's without, we're using different standards. NEver mind that while Boyd (T) does well against normals, GLHF trying to shine as a good unit if you're in an army that has Ike (T), Mia (T), Titania (T), etc.

But I don't think that sinks Boyd's chances to get a Wing. We say that Titania and Haar are the best Wing candidates, but that's because Boyd's SPD sucks. Boyd (T)'s SPD sucks a lot less, and he becomes a stronger candidate for the Wing, and we have a good three-way race. Sure, Boyd (T) taking a Wing denies us Titania's performance with the Wing, but Titania or Haar taking the Wing denies us Boyd (T)'s performance, which is considerable.

Only way to break the three-way tie is to pass something to Oscar that has the same cost to the army's performance, or otherwise account for the fact that OScar's team could have a w1n Haar/Titania but Boyd (T)'s team only has one of those. In that second case, Boyd (T) not only needs to beat Oscar, he needs to close the efficiency gap between the armies from losing one of his better attackers.

My view on it. Without looking at the numbers, Boyd has a good shot, I think.

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3 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:28 am

Boyd is assisted some from actually capping tier 3 speed with a transfer and wing.

Haar gets to 26 AS and probably not yet 27 for part 4's start. Titania likely promoted around 3-10 or 3-11 and has 20/2 and might have 28 AS by now. Boyd will have 29 for part 4.

Boyd's 45% spd growth isn't that much worse than Titania's 50%, and he has a 1 or 2 point spd lead.

Since this is a whole game thing and not just part 3, Boyd(T) actually has the entirety of part 4 in his pocket for the competition for the wing.

Also for what it's worth if Haar isn't winged there isn't much point in crowning him early. Heather can steal something else in 3-7 before another unit KOs Zihark or Jill and maybe a DB member can use the crown when it nears promotion. Obviously this pales in comparison to wing!Haar and the crown in part 3, but it means wing!Boyd(T) isn't competing with Oscar and wingcrown!Haar all on his own. The GMs may have an extra Storm Sword now if you bought one for them in 3-6, or Heather gets a silver dagger and can actually finish weakened stuff off if she's not stealing rather than just twiddle her thumbs. Or Heather still steals the crown and now you have 4 by 3-11. Gat's is obviously gone, but now you can afford to maybe promote Titania at level 20 instead of getting her an extra level or promote 3 units at level 18 instead of just 2. Have to select one of these options since you can't get all at once, but I'm thinking Boyd's chances of getting a wing on a team where everyone else is an (N) is not dead in the water.

Also, in terms of comparisons, Boyd's team may or may not use both Titania and Haar anyway, and same with Oscar's team. In a fair number of the possible comparisons between the two teams, Boyd(T) getting the wing isn't meaning that his team only throws one of wing!Titania/Haar against 2 of them on Oscar's team. It's 1 against 1.



Anyway, Haar flies while he does the doubling, but if he doesn't get the wing he's still a flying tank. With the wing he might hit 23 AS before wing!Boyd(T), since ~3 levels vs. ~2 levels but having all of 2-E ORKOing lots of enemies (22AS Haar) means Haar may get there first. But Boyd starts at level 8 and thus he should hit 24 AS long before Haar. Of course, the instant Haar hits 24 AS he gets crowned to 26, but still Boyd has some time at 24 AS compared to Haar at 23 AS. In fact, it's possible that by the time Haar hits 24/26 AS Boyd may have reached 25 AS already, and the difference between 25 and 26 AS before 3-10 is negligible. So if Boyd gets the wing rather than Haar he has all of part 4 as King of that comparison, and aside from the fact we are comparing a 9 move flying ORKO machine to a 7 move walking ORKO machine, we aren't losing much there either.

And ORKOing auras without blood tide and only using Nasir is just funny. All he needs is an A support, since the brave axe is 11 mt. Although without blood tides his accuracy may suffer. Only +8 if he supported Oscar.

Actually, I know supporting Oscar makes the most sense in part 3, but what of 4-E? Oscar doesn't have access to wyrmslayers or hammers to make up for his low speed cap, nor does he have massive strength. Boyd may just want to dump Oscar in part 4, though that restarts his support from C and that's a problem.


Oh, Oscar also likes Boyd in part 3 since we aren't giving him Ike, he probably doesn't want Rhys, and his only other fast option is Rolf. A 00 is so much faster than a 02. 01 vs. 02 is a nearly negligible difference as far as the practical elements of building the support is concerned, but a 00 should be able to pull a support level in 3-2. So a B for 3-3 instead of a C, and despite Oscar's 3-4 issues they should still pull an A for 3-5.

4 adjacents total between 3-P and 3-1. (so easy, also one rescue + two adjacents works)
7 adjacents in 3-2. (or 5 adjacents and 1 rescue)
3 adjacents total between 3-3 and 3-4. (not even a challenge)

Also it is less straining on efficiency in 3-P, 3-1, 3-3, 3-4 than trying to build a 02 in 2 chapters. (Compare 3 or 4 adjacents to 7).

Let's compare Earth x Fire with Earth x Wind, one step down.
In 3-3, 15 avo vs. 10 avo for Oscar.
In 3-5, 23 avo vs. 20 avo for Oscar. But he gets mt, too.
In other chapters, it is an avo disadvantage, but he still gets the mt and easy access to bonds. 2 units are easier to keep together than 4 (Oscar and his support and Boyd and his support so that they can use their bond and still have their supports.) And using their Bond (on enemy phase) builds support levels. win-win.

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4 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:12 pm

Interceptor wrote:Only way to break the three-way tie is to pass something to Oscar that has the same cost to the army's performance, or otherwise account for the fact that OScar's team could have a w1n Haar/Titania but Boyd (T)'s team only has one of those. In that second case, Boyd (T) not only needs to beat Oscar, he needs to close the efficiency gap between the armies from losing one of his better attackers.
Is there anything we can even give Oscar that he wants that we can determine has that kind of value? Closest thing I can think of is an Energy Drop, but that would probably have an even greater cost for Oscar.

I suppose it makes sense that, as cool as it sounds, we can't just assume Boyd (T) and Titania (T) are on the same team for the sake of Boyd getting a Speedwing. His shot at getting it has definitely increased, though.

Narga_Rocks wrote:4 adjacents total between 3-P and 3-1. (so easy, also one rescue + two adjacents works)
I get that done in 3-P alone...Even if you can manage the 7 turn limit (I don't think I ever have), 4 turns adjacent with Oscar's Canto should be easy.

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5 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:22 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Interceptor wrote:Only way to break the three-way tie is to pass something to Oscar that has the same cost to the army's performance, or otherwise account for the fact that OScar's team could have a w1n Haar/Titania but Boyd (T)'s team only has one of those. In that second case, Boyd (T) not only needs to beat Oscar, he needs to close the efficiency gap between the armies from losing one of his better attackers.
Is there anything we can even give Oscar that he wants that we can determine has that kind of value? Closest thing I can think of is an Energy Drop, but that would probably have an even greater cost for Oscar.

I suppose it makes sense that, as cool as it sounds, we can't just assume Boyd (T) and Titania (T) are on the same team for the sake of Boyd getting a Speedwing. His shot at getting it has definitely increased, though.
Yeah, it's harder to give Oscar a drop than it is to give Boyd a speedwing. And there isn't really anything else that helps overall.


Narga_Rocks wrote:4 adjacents total between 3-P and 3-1. (so easy, also one rescue + two adjacents works)
I get that done in 3-P alone...Even if you can manage the 7 turn limit (I don't think I ever have), 4 turns adjacent with Oscar's Canto should be easy.

It's only 4 if you have two chapter bonuses. It should be 7 otherwise. Unless you meant getting the job done in 3-P so that you have a C for 3-2. Cause yeah, that's easy. Throw in possible adjacents in 3-1 and it becomes insanely easy. The only thing easier than a 00 to get a support level every two chapters is a 00 with a healer. Of course, a 00 with a healer is actually really easy to pull off a support level every chapter. If Florete was magical and Mist started with more speed I'd say Mist x Ike is a cool pairing. Even despite that, it is something that could happen for 3-1 if you try and then it benefits Ike until he can C Mia in 3-2.

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6 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:29 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:Is there anything we can even give Oscar that he wants that we can determine has that kind of value? Closest thing I can think of is an Energy Drop, but that would probably have an even greater cost for Oscar.
I don't think that there is, so therein lies the rub. I thought of the Drop, too, but Oscar is already having doubling issues to begin with, which the Drop won't fix, and now we lose what someone else who CAN double reliably might have been able to do with it (like Nephenee, or Ulki/Janaff, or something).

I suppose it makes sense that, as cool as it sounds, we can't just assume Boyd (T) and Titania (T) are on the same team for the sake of Boyd getting a Speedwing. His shot at getting it has definitely increased, though.
Yeah, and that may be the way to go, assume he gets it and figure out the consequences from there. Maybe it's not possible to even out the scales by giving something to Oscar, so it's necessary to do what Narga has pointed out and see what happens outside of Part 3. It's pretty clear that Boyd (T) with a Wing will beat Oscar in the long run, so it's a matter of seeing if he also beats what Oscar's army can do with an "extra" wing.

Strictly speaking, Haar and Titania stop being amazing eventually, whereas Boyd is a murder choo-choo train from when he gets going all the way up until the ending credits, so it's not as if it's impossible for this:

Boyd (T) + Speedwing, Haar w/Wing/Crown, Titania w/o Wing

... to be better than this:

Oscar, Haar w/Wing/Crown, Titania w/Wing.

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7 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:32 pm

I try to start discussions here and no one responds. Sad

I guess this can fly since it's been two days and no one argued against it.

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8 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:44 pm

The affinity is a major advantage for Oscar, right? Well, sort of. Funny thing is that their best partners are likely going to be each other. Oscar desperately needs the atk boost and Boyd doesn't need much aside from what his own affinity gives, though the avoid is obviously nice. They also have the brotherly Bond for +10% crit each, which will stack nicely with Killer weapons.

It's rather silly to assume Oscar and Boyd will be paired. It can happen, but Oscar can find atk supports elsewhere if he wanted, or he can sacrifice atk to help out other units (Titania comes to mind).

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9 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:56 pm

Vykan12 wrote:It's rather silly to assume Oscar and Boyd will be paired. It can happen, but Oscar can find atk supports elsewhere if he wanted,
I wouldn't say it's silly at all. It doesn't have to happen, but it's easily the best option for Oscar. Narga already showed how its among his fastest, the only one tying being Rolf. Let's look at other potential atk partners:
Rhys: The move gap is worse now and Rhys doesn't really make use of any of the bonuses. This is like wasting a good affinity.
Mia: She's supporting Ike before Oscar. If she isn't, this is probably Boyd's biggest competition, but his speed and Bond still make him better overall for both him and Oscar.
Soren: Again, he doesn't use the avoid like Boyd will. And the move gap got even worse as well.
Mist: She doesn't really use the avoid either. It's slower and not as easy to keep her with Oscar.
Heather: Lol at Heather trying to actually fight someone.
Brom: More mobility issues, and even he doesn't use the avoid because he has plenty of Def and a +Def affinity.
Anyone else comes too late, but if you think otherwise, just try to find a reason Mordecai or Ulki would want Earth.

or he can sacrifice atk to help out other units (Titania comes to mind).
Oscar needs atk though. If he doesn't get a +atk support, he'll likely end up as a support bot on the field because his Str is not very good and he starts to have doubling problems pretty fast. The only advantage he has in supporting Titania over Boyd is the mobility, everything else is in Boyd's favor.

When two units are Upper Mid or higher and they are easily each other's best partners for support, I would say it's safe to assume they usually support each other. There are, of course, situations where one is in play and not the other, but that simply won't hold as much weight. Besides, it's not like Boyd's Fire affinity is useless elsewhere.

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10 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:10 pm

Vykan12 wrote:
The affinity is a major advantage for Oscar, right? Well, sort of. Funny thing is that their best partners are likely going to be each other. Oscar desperately needs the atk boost and Boyd doesn't need much aside from what his own affinity gives, though the avoid is obviously nice. They also have the brotherly Bond for +10% crit each, which will stack nicely with Killer weapons.

It's rather silly to assume Oscar and Boyd will be paired. It can happen, but Oscar can find atk supports elsewhere if he wanted, or he can sacrifice atk to help out other units (Titania comes to mind).


It's a really good pairing, though.

But if you like, go with what Int was pointing out and work from there. Assume Boyd pairs Oscar and Boyd got the speedwing. Compare that team to what Oscar's team can do with the extra wing and someone else getting Oscar (like Neph or Titania).

Actually, back to what Red Fox was saying about speed (in reference to what I was saying), I wonder how hard it would be to pull off an A for 3-4. B for 3-3 with a 00 is criminally easy, at least when they both want to make use of that bond anyway. Now, 3-2 is longer than 3-3, but 3-3 still only needs 5 adjacents and one rescue or 7 adjacents. You get one on the first turn if you stand them adjacent (everybody else is working on 2 chapter support levels so even if it prevents other future pairs from being adjacent it isn't a problem) then you only need 4 more adjacents and one turn of holding. Considering canto, and again bonds, and that there is a break in the action halfway through, I'd have to say you could pull off 4 adjacents and a hold. So now Oscar is comparing an A Boyd in 3-4 to a B anybody else. Oscar gets at least one extra mt, and 3 avo over a B with thunder/dark/wind. Against B Oscar x Titania it is +2mt, +3hit, +8 avo, over 1 def. That's for both 3-4 and 3-5. Also back in 3-3 it was B over C, so 1 mt, 2 hit, 7 avo over 1 def.

And yeah, I'd say even if you don't put Mia with Ike for some reason having the bond boost and speed boost is worth it. At least, for Boyd (T).


Red Fox, if you are strongly in favour of Boyd (T) getting the speedwing I'd even be tempted to say Boyd (T) > Neph (N), all things considered.

Plus I think you can forge hand axes before javelins by a chapter or two. I'm not sure on that one, though.

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11 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:45 pm

Anyone think he could go higher? I could see him > Nephenee as Narga already mentioned, though I'll need to look into it a bit more.

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12 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:21 pm

Any progress on this?

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13 Re: Boyd (T) > Oscar on Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:46 pm

Hardly any progress in this forum, so no, not really.

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