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Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T)

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1 Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:48 pm

Before they meet, Nephenee has 2-1, 2-2, and 2-E while Shinon has 3-P and 3-1.

Neph's 21 AS doubles everything in 2-1 without exception. 31 atk ORKOs most things, leaving armors and bandits where's she's still doing better than Brom anyway. Being the only fighter aside from Brom and lolHeather, this is pretty important.

If Neph is able to get a level and get Spd or Str (~77%), her new 22 AS will be able to double the 18 AS Halberdiers in 2-2 (although 31 atk doesn't quite ORKO them, no one else does better). Crit aside, her combat, whether 1 or 2 range, is better than Lucia's and she loses durability. Given this chapter's 7 turn limit for max BEXP and Nephenee's good offense, she's still quite a big help here.

2-E is not as good for her but is not bad either. She can't really be an effective wall, so she'll mostly be restricted to raining Javelins down on people or clearing out enemies before someone else like Mordecai or Haar jumps in front to take most of the enemies.

(I'll be assuming Shinon (T) for the comparisons). No doubt about it, Shinon is pretty good in 3-P and 3-1. 26 AS doubles everything aside from a few SM's, and Bows means he doesn't take counters. But Bows also means he's mainly locked to Player phase. 31 atk with a Steel Bow only ORKOs Sages, so he's otherwise left with 29 atk and 55 crit (~40 after Luck) to ORKO. 29 atk at least 4HKOs everything that's not a General, so that's still good. But, only on player phase on a team where we have Ike, Titania, Gatrie, Mia, Oscar, and Boyd who can do stuff on enemy phase. As a result, I'd have to give Nephenee the pre 3-2 win for helping the team more overall.

Then 3-2 comes and we can start comparing them directly. I'll say level 7 Nephenee and 14 Shinon w/BEXP (so his level mostly guaranteed HP, Str, and Def). It's hard to say who's really better at this point. Shinon wins player phase due to +3 Str and a possible +atk support (Neph doubles a 23 AS SM, otherwise both double the same things) while Nephenee wins enemy phase due to being able to actually do stuff there, although her durability is a bit limited (The stronger guys can 2HKO her, average guys are more like 3HKO. She has ~73 avoid also, so she sees an average of 40-50 displayed Hit).

However, Nephenee grows a lot faster. She likely already has Spd capped and will likely cap Skl in another level. From there she can BEXP (possibly in the 3-3 base) for HP, Luck, Res, capping Res and then Str/Def all the way (Kinda like giving her 50% in both growths as long as lolMag doesn't proc at 15%). Shinon can do the same thing for Str, Def, Luck, until Def caps and then start getting Res (He can cap Res by 19 if he only slowplays). However, this does not help Shinon's 1 range deficit, while Nephenee is getting conituously stronger and more durable, even if she misses out on a couple BEXP levels.

Shinon will likely spend a bit more time in tier 3, but by the time Neph reaches it (probably a chapter or two later) she'll start cleanly beating him, since she'll be durable enough to take on plenty of enemies and her offense will be a lot better as well due to have a Skl% mastery instead of Skl/2%. Shinon will still have more Str (+2 tier 2 cap as well as more likely to reach it, but -1 promo bonus) but there won't be much, if anything, that he can ORKO that Nephenee can't. And for the stuff neither ORKOs, like Generals, Nephenee has 28% mastery while Shinon only has 16%, hers grows faster, and she has enemy phase to have more chances of activating it.

When it comes to Endgame, Shinon wins as long as he has the Double Bow, and it's kind of tied when Neph gets the Wishblade. Shinon will win overall due to always having more Str and 1-3 range, but the win isn't large since Neph's performance is still good and 4-E doesn't hold that much weight.

The real difference between Nephenee (N) and Nephenee (T) is that (T) doesn't have the slow start that (N) does. The start is still a bit slow, but much better and it doesn't take nearly as long to get out of the offensive and defensive holes which makes her able to pull ahead of others a lot faster. Shinon (N) vs. Shinon (T) is just better BEXPing for some more Str, since the initial Spd boost only helps on a few enemies.

I realize the majority of this post is just generalizing most of the areas of the game, but I kinda wanted to get a discussion going here and this looked like a good place to start.

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2 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:22 pm

Couple things to add.

-Natural Wrath

-Due to being melee, she has a reason to be given an Earth support like Oscar.

-Due to being melee, there are more reasons to give her skills that help combat, like Adept/Vantage/Cancel. Granted there's only one Vantage (and it's from Mia), but we at least have incentive to give it to Neph rather than Shinon if we choose not to use Mia.Other skills however are at least up for grabs.

I still think it's a bit shaky though, so perhaps I'm not the best to help your argument. Just throwing those out there.

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3 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:48 pm

Grandjackal wrote:Couple things to add.

-Natural Wrath
Matters only near the end of enemy phase, like if you have her get attacked by 3 things that 4HKO her the last guy typically gets crit-blicked. (two shots at it with >50%, especially if she has critforge)


-Due to being melee, she has a reason to be given an Earth support like Oscar.
I agree, though Oscar still enjoys Boyd and his fire and bonds (I know bonds work regardless, but then they'd be a group of 3 if Neph goes with Oscar). Still, I think since Neph(T) has more offence than Boyd (N, transfers in a void, remember) then it could be worth doing.

Interestingly, if we assume transfers aren't in a void then Oscar could have a str boost and need Boyd less, though Boyd would of course still be a help. But then Boyd (T) might exist and that means more defficulty getting Oscar for Neph.



-Due to being melee, there are more reasons to give her skills that help combat, like Adept/Vantage/Cancel. Granted there's only one Vantage (and it's from Mia), but we at least have incentive to give it to Neph rather than Shinon if we choose not to use Mia.Other skills however are at least up for grabs.
If Mia isn't in play then Neph should have Adept. And since Vantage without Cancel is kinda bad, I'd have to suggest that Neph doesn't use Vantage. Not sure what 10 capacity skill to stick on Neph, though.


And of course I agree that Neph(T) > Shinon(N/T). Well, maybe. I haven't thought it over much. I just don't like no 1 range.

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4 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:04 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:
I agree, though Oscar still enjoys Boyd and his fire and bonds (I know bonds work regardless, but then they'd be a group of 3 if Neph goes with Oscar). Still, I think since Neph(T) has more offence than Boyd (N, transfers in a void, remember) then it could be worth doing.

Interestingly, if we assume transfers aren't in a void then Oscar could have a str boost and need Boyd less, though Boyd would of course still be a help. But then Boyd (T) might exist and that means more defficulty getting Oscar for Neph.

Really depends on when the supports kick in. After all...

Neph-12-25-37

Boyd-7-15-22

So, 5-10-17 more avoid.

If we assume level 7 for Neph by chapter 3-2, Boyd should be level 10 I guess?

Neph Avoid-64

Boyd Avoid (lolrhyme)-49

Boyd needs a B with Oscar just to meet Neph's base. Oscar gets less avoid from Boyd as well. Boyd does give an offense boost, but not much of one until A. Even then, does it really beat having +5-10-17 avoid? Does it allow him to kill anything he couldn't normally?

Then the obvious Oscar helping someone better at offense become even better. Though I suppose it's sort of like Nolan supporting Eddie or Zihark, except the Eddie here is teh better unit, and Nolan isn't exactly captain killinger compared to the team...

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5 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:16 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
I agree, though Oscar still enjoys Boyd and his fire and bonds (I know bonds work regardless, but then they'd be a group of 3 if Neph goes with Oscar). Still, I think since Neph(T) has more offence than Boyd (N, transfers in a void, remember) then it could be worth doing.

Interestingly, if we assume transfers aren't in a void then Oscar could have a str boost and need Boyd less, though Boyd would of course still be a help. But then Boyd (T) might exist and that means more defficulty getting Oscar for Neph.

Really depends on when the supports kick in. After all...

Neph-12-25-37

Boyd-7-15-22

So, 5-10-17 more avoid.
2-5-7.

Earth is 8-15-23
EarthxWind is 10-20-30.

We've corrected you on this before. Red Fox even posted a link to the support page on Serenes Forest in a topic on Serenes.


If we assume level 7 for Neph by chapter 3-2, Boyd should be level 10 I guess?

Neph Avoid-64

Boyd Avoid (lolrhyme)-49

Boyd needs a B with Oscar just to meet Neph's base. Oscar gets less avoid from Boyd as well. Boyd does give an offense boost, but not much of one until A. Even then, does it really beat having +5-10-17 avoid? Does it allow him to kill anything he couldn't normally?
I'm not certain the +1 or +2 ever lets Oscar get something he wouldn't otherwise. He spends a lot of time not doubling then when he promotes he's killing most anyway. Still, I think its bound to help on something along the way, like paladins in part 3.


Then the obvious Oscar helping someone better at offense become even better. Though I suppose it's sort of like Nolan supporting Eddie or Zihark, except the Eddie here is teh better unit, and Nolan isn't exactly captain killinger compared to the team...

Yeah, if Neph has either the second adept or Mia isn't deployed, and actually even if she doesn't have adept but just a critforge, Neph(T)'s offence should be a fair amount better than Boyd's. By enough that improving her is a good thing. I'm not sure who gets attacked more, though, Oscar or Neph, if they are partners, so I'm not positive it will let her KO more things than if she supports someone like Gatrie or Titania.

Also, Oscar is quite glad to get more def/avo, since his durability from earth alone isn't like Mia's from earth alone or Ike's from earth alone, and Boyd gives neither. Neph at least gives avo. Still, I think for Oscar his preferences are more offence > more durability > more accurate. Which places water and dark at the top of his wish list. Boyd probably equals them because of the bond, otherwise fire doesn't help Oscar as much. Still, Oscar gets slightly less inaccurate if he wields a short spear with wind/fire/light support, so Neph and Boyd do give something.

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6 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:25 pm

Oscar's options for Dark and Water are Mordy, Mist and Soren. Mordy could generally support anyone since he doesn't give a fuck. Mist is a lol support due to unit function difference. Soren's no way in hell getting Oscar unless he gets a transfer.

Leaves Boyd and Neph, and as said at least Neph gives avoid, and she gets Earth in return.

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7 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:03 pm

Grandjackal wrote:Oscar's options for Dark and Water are Mordy, Mist and Soren. Mordy could generally support anyone since he doesn't give a fuck. Mist is a lol support due to unit function difference. Soren's no way in hell getting Oscar unless he gets a transfer.
I never said we wanted to give him anyone that actually has water/dark. Just that Oscar may want it more. Oh, Brom exists, too, but he doesn't double either, of course. So Neph's main competition is Boyd and Titania. mt+bond vs. avo vs. def+shared move+shared move type.

If Titania didn't start so much more durable than both Boyd and Neph then Titania would be a stronger competitor. Also Titania with a wing probably doesn't want Oscar anywhere near her since the enemies will just attack him. I think Neph(T) has a really good shot at Oscar.

Mordy is an interesting case, though. But he doesn't need the Earth (he's a spaceman?) earth and he also doesn't want to be near Oscar when an enemy that Mordy 2HKOs is nearby. He also shows up in 3-4 so he's mostly a non-issue.


Leaves Boyd and Neph, and as said at least Neph gives avoid, and she gets Earth in return.

Oh, there are benefits. I think there are benefits with Boyd, too. It mostly depends on whether the enemies are stupid enough to attack a suped up Neph (Adept + critforge) or if they'll choose to attack Mr. I double paladins and sages and generals only, and sometimes I miss them, too. If they stop attacking Neph when there is an Oscar-shaped target nearby then might as well support Boyd with Oscar since they have similar offensive "skills" and try to find another solution for Neph. Either that or make a Neph + doubling people wall in front of Oscar.

You get Resovle!Mordy + Ike + Mia + crown!Gatrie + Ranulf + Ulki + Janaff (+ wing!Titania + wing!Haar, though these two frequently miss out on halbs and warriors and the occasional sniper). It likely only takes two or three of them to prevent Oscar getting attacked.

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8 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:07 am

Then 3-2 comes and we can start comparing them directly. I'll say level 7 Nephenee and 14 Shinon w/BEXP (so his level mostly guaranteed HP, Str, and Def). It's hard to say who's really better at this point. Shinon wins player phase due to +3 Str and a possible +atk support (Neph doubles a 23 AS SM, otherwise both double the same things) while Nephenee wins enemy phase due to being able to actually do stuff there, although her durability is a bit limited (The stronger guys can 2HKO her, average guys are more like 3HKO. She has ~73 avoid also, so she sees an average of 40-50 displayed Hit).

Level 7? That's 6 levels in 3 chapters. Considering the fact that Neph has a level lead + promotion against most enemies and that other units with better durability/offence/mobility exist, level 5 seems much more likely.

Level 5 Nephenee(T) with a forged steel lance, 'C' Brom: 34 HP, 34 Atk, 25 AS, 82 Avo, 17 Def, 17 Res, 32 Crit
Level 14 Shinon with a forged steel bow, 'C' Soren: 44 HP, 38 Atk, 26 AS, 87 Avo, 22 Def, 15 Res, 40 Crit

Shinon pretty much beats her in every parameter, except res (Lol@2 Res making Neph > Shinon on the player phase). But what is the difference? Excluding Mages and Bishops, Neph ORKO's 3 enemies. Shinon, on the other hand, ORKO's 33 enemies. These figures, by the way, are from MT alone. Is 8 Crit a big advantage, well, yes, yes it is. With an average dodge of around 14, Neph's average crit is 18% per attack, 32.76% per round. Shinon's then, is 26% per round, or 45.24% per round. A staggering ~12.5% difference. This can be increased through the use of bonds. So yes, teh difference between them is quite amazing, with Shinon consistently ORKO'ing on the player, to Nephenee consistently 2RKO'ing on the player phase. So Nephenee must win by quite a margin on the enemy phase. This is a 10 turn chapter (bexp says 15, but even 10 is a tad high of a turncount for this chapter IMO). We can deploy 16 units. Let's say we place 10 units for the purpose of combat out to fight. If each of those attacks on the player phase, already we are out of enemy units quite quickly. Considering some have higher mobility and many have higher durability, Neph should not be seeing much enemy phase action. She should see some, but don't forget: Shinon has an enemy phase too, albeit a bad one. I don't think the 5 Atk gap between them on the enemy phase is wide enougth to consider Neph (T) > Shinon (T) in 3-2, especially with the fact that Neph is lacking 1-2 range.

When Shinon promotes, say 3-11, Neph should be around level 18 (generous, perhaps). Let's say Shinon got +2 Strength, +2 Luck, +1 Def and +1 Res from his usual xx/20 average thanks to bexp. Could be more, but, oh well. Here's what we have:

xx/18 Nephenee with a forged steel lance, 'A' Brom: 43 HP, 42 Atk, 27 AS, 98 Avo, 25 Def, 20 Res, 33 Crit
xx/20/1 Shinon with a forged steel bow, 'A' Soren: 49 HP, 45 Atk, 28 AS, 105 Avo, 28 Def, 22 Res, 46 Crit, 16% Deadeye

Shinon beats every parameter possible, from range to activation rates. Neph better on the player phase? Impossible. It all boils down to enemy phase, as usual when it comes to Shinon and before you say it: Nephenee roflstomps Shinon on the enemy phase. +14 Atk and +2 Crit vs Superfluous Hit, 1-2 range and deadeye? If Deadeye's proc rate was higher then the latter might be plausable, but unfortunately for Shinon, it's not. This does not mean, however, that Neph wins overall as she might not face enougth enemies to overcome Shinon's leads on the player phase. Again, perfectly plausable considering the fact that we have more epic win people with high mov, not to mention tonnes of sandbags to slow foot units liek Neph down, at least Shinon can shoot over the sandbags by some margin to aid him, Neph just has to go round before fighting. At least her durability is better so that can't be used against, with her being 4RKO'ed at worst by the 9 36+ atk enemies. Shinon's is still better, and will still need healing less overall.

Tl;dr, Neph may have an enemy phase, but she is unlikely to see much in it thanks to higher mov units and units with better durability. Therefore, I would think that Shinon's superier player phase matters more in the argument.

So yeah, I disagree.

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9 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:40 am

I like how you only used comparisons where Shinon wins, like when he immediately promotes, not bothering to look at them both after she promotes. Sandbagging at its finest.

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10 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:59 am

Another note is that 2-1 is just her and Brom. She has quite a sizeable chance at a nice amount of exp with her performance. 2-3, she's probably your best combat unit.

Level 7 doesn't seem ridiculous to me at all by 3-2.

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11 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:13 pm

Kirsche wrote:
Level 7? That's 6 levels in 3 chapters. Considering the fact that Neph has a level lead + promotion against most enemies and that other units with better durability/offence/mobility exist, level 5 seems much more likely.
Also considering all the fighting she does. You can't pass it off on enemies alone, just look at her situations:
2-1: One of two (Heather doesn't really count) fighters, and she wins offense. She's also the candiate for killing the boss because he can lower to Wrath range, so her 4HKO can turn into a 2HKO rather easily.
2-2: Likely your best offensive unit, and you need that for this chapters BEXP limits. Also, Lucia aside, she's the only one who can ORKO the boss, but Lucia needs to be Siezing after Heather grabs the Secret Book and is Vigored by Leanne, so Neph likely gets another boss kill here.
2-E: She may be mostly raining Javelins, but she'll still get a good amount of kills, which can net her 2-3 levels itself since a lot of these guys actually are promoted.

And throughout the whole thing, since Nephenee is one of the few who actually cares about the CEXP (Brom is the only real competition for 2-1 and 2-2, but he's only Mid. Otherwise Calill, Marcia, and Haar for 2-E but they don't really get in the way), you'll likely give her kills whenever possible.

Level 5 Nephenee(T) with a forged steel lance, 'C' Brom: 34 HP, 34 Atk, 25 AS, 82 Avo, 17 Def, 17 Res, 32 Crit
I obviously don't agree with your level, I just wanted to point out that you gave her 17 Res when her average is 15.8, so even rounding only gives 16. Although for this level I really think you should have included more decimals since a lot of those are .4's or .6's.

Anyway, I won't deny that he beats her on player phase now, even with your low level and absence of Silver Greatlance. But that was my main point anyway; it's only player phase.

With an average dodge of around 14, Neph's average crit is 18% per attack, 32.76% per round. Shinon's then, is 26% per round, or 45.24% per round. A staggering ~12.5% difference. This can be increased through the use of bonds.
You missed a few things here:
1. Enemy phase. Any attacks Neph does on enemy phase are more chances to do damage and activate crits that Shinon doesn't have without Crossbows (But they have no crit and mostly 2-3RKO), even if it's only one per enemy phase. Basically, if Neph takes an enemy on their phase and kills it on her own, she's done the same as Shinon just killing it himself. Any more and she's starting to beat him.
2. This is Nephenee (T) we're discussing, and since you already assumed she's supporting Brom that means she probably has a Bond with him as well.

We can deploy 16 units. Let's say we place 10 units for the purpose of combat out to fight. If each of those attacks on the player phase, already we are out of enemy units quite quickly.
See, there's another problem. There are not 10 enemies in immediate range on this map. There are some units out of reach immediately that you'll be countering on the enemy phase. See where this is going?

Also, who is reliably ORKOing? Ike usually, Winged Titania, Shinon occasionally, and crits/Adept from others like Mia. That's not 10 units, and therefore it takes more than 10 PC's for 10 immediately dead units.

Considering some have higher mobility and many have higher durability, Neph should not be seeing much enemy phase action.
Higher mobility is like, Titania, Oscar, and Haar. Haar is always doing crazy shit and Titania and Oscar aren't exactly charging ahead either because they're only two units, and Oscar's durability isn't perfect either before his support builds. Not even that many have higher durability, or at least not by much. Titania wins for now but grows a lot slower. Oscar wins, but not by a lot. Boyd probably loses because his Spd sucks too much. Mia wins avoid but loses concrete. So it's really just Ike, Gatrie, Haar, and Shinon who really beat her good, but Shinon shouldn't be the one taking enemy phase hits and Gatrie has worse mobility.

especially with the fact that Neph is lacking 1-2 range.
Wait, Javelins don't exist anymore? Sure, they aren't good, but she can use them when needed.

When Shinon promotes, say 3-11, Neph should be around level 18 (generous, perhaps). Let's say Shinon got +2 Strength, +2 Luck, +1 Def and +1 Res from his usual xx/20 average thanks to bexp. Could be more, but, oh well. Here's what we have:

xx/18 Nephenee with a forged steel lance, 'A' Brom: 43 HP, 42 Atk, 27 AS, 98 Avo, 25 Def, 20 Res, 33 Crit
xx/20/1 Shinon with a forged steel bow, 'A' Soren: 49 HP, 45 Atk, 28 AS, 105 Avo, 28 Def, 22 Res, 46 Crit, 16% Deadeye
Generous? I call only picking out the parts where Shinon wins (I said he'd promote first, but what about when Neph promotes, which isn't much later? At that point she'd tie his atk and clearly win, as I mentioned before) more like a sandbag.

This does not mean, however, that Neph wins overall as she might not face enougth enemies to overcome Shinon's leads on the player phase.
3-11 happens to have a lot of enemies for our units to face, so I think seeing enough enemy phase action will turn out to be rather easy.

Again, perfectly plausable considering the fact that we have more epic win people with high mov,
You're overblowing this "more move" thing quite a bit, and it hurts Shinon as well, since they can advance past him as well. But, oh well, all 7 move units down to Mid tier for not being able to keep up.

At least her durability is better so that can't be used against, with her being 4RKO'ed at worst by the 9 36+ atk enemies. Shinon's is still better, and will still need healing less overall.
Shinon's is better, but he unfortunately cannot use it as much. I don't mind healing Nephenee on occasion if it means I get a good enemy phase offensive unit. That's what healers are there for, after all.

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12 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:54 am

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Also considering all the fighting she does. You can't pass it off on enemies alone, just look at her situations:
2-1: One of two (Heather doesn't really count) fighters, and she wins offense. She's also the candiate for killing the boss because he can lower to Wrath range, so her 4HKO can turn into a 2HKO rather easily.
She doubles, too. 17 AS vs. (22 - 1) AS. Even if she doesn't level during the map and thus have a chance at str or spd (or both), she still does lots more damage than Brom, and if she sets it up for enemy phase then maybe she can get in a crit.


2-E: She may be mostly raining Javelins, but she'll still get a good amount of kills, which can net her 2-3 levels itself since a lot of these guys actually are promoted.
One "word": bexp. Haar really can't do anything worthwhile with it here, and nor can Brom. Nobody else really makes any use out of it, Calill isn't even guaranteed to get spd (its tied for 2nd, but 4th has 50% to spd's 55%, and mag has 45%). Even if Neph somehow isn't hitting level 7 for ~26 AS with transfers without bexp, she can certainly hit it with bexp. And 65% spd is 2nd with 3rd being 45%. May even pull off 27 AS by the end of the map.


And throughout the whole thing, since Nephenee is one of the few who actually cares about the CEXP (Brom is the only real competition for 2-1 and 2-2, but he's only Mid. Otherwise Calill, Marcia, and Haar for 2-E but they don't really get in the way), you'll likely give her kills whenever possible.
Well, Marcia is a good idea, but to get the most exp for her possible she's spending time going after thunder sages. Otherwise, yeah Neph isn't really facing much in the way of competition for the cexp.


Anyway, I won't deny that he beats her on player phase now, even with your low level and absence of Silver Greatlance. But that was my main point anyway; it's only player phase.
...Actually...level 7 Neph(T) has 19 str, and you can give her a Brom C for 3-2 anyway, and the silver greatlance makes 37 mt. With a max mt steel bow forge Shinon needs a str proc just to pull that off (or like a Mist support). He'll be way more accurate, though.

Neph: 25.2 skl, 14.4 luck.
64.8 + 15 = say 80 base hit. Only ~133 hit with C Brom for 3-2.

Beyond that, she'll be able to get some str during bexp levels, though hp/lck are not about to cap any time soon so str and def are mostly splitting. Oh, the chance of getting mag is probably more than canceled by the chance of not getting one of hp/lck and thus being able to get str + def in the same level. HP is 45%, lck is 40%, str is 35%, def is 35%, mag is 15%. I'd say it is more likely for her to get more than 1 point of either str or def per level on average than getting less than 1 point per level. Anyway, Shinon then gets silencer and an extra point of mt, but she's competing fairly well, aside from the whole missing thing and only having 30 uses on the silver greatlance while silencer has 50 uses.

Anyway, it does not take long before Nephenee should be doing okay even on player phase. And considering how a steel lance forge should be enough to make enough of a dent on enemy phase to beat Shinon already... Anyway, she has the durability to face at least 2 guys without dying (in most cases) on enemy phase and then pull out a steel forge for 100% hit on one of them. At times she'll have more, and it won't be long until she gets enough durability to be 4 or more HKOd.



And yeah, with Ike + Gatrie + Mia + Shinon all being in high or top tier and only Haar and Titania as mounteds that high, I'd have to think that Neph's facing plenty of combat. Shinon can get shoved by something with 1 less con than what can shove Neph, but of course why do we want to bring Mr. Crossbow closer to the enemy? I think there is plenty for him to attack on player phase without needing to push him closer and risk being unable to trade out his silencer or more preferably block him off.

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13 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:18 pm

So, unless anyone has any opposition left in them, I'll be making the move.

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14 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:47 pm

Not sure what's up with Kirsche, but he was the only one that actually voiced anything. It's been 4 days. If someone is vehemently opposed to Neph (T) > Shinon (N/T) then they can speak up in this topic after you put Neph(T) above Shinon.

I like this format for this reason, actually. The argument for why Neph(T) could be placed above Shinon is all right here (without being riddled with posts about other units), and if someone wants to show up in a week or two and complain about Shinon being under her then there is no excuse to put it anywhere but this topic. At which point there is no excuse to not read this topic first. It's not as if this topic is super long.

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15 Re: Nephenee (T) > Shinon (N/T) on Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:29 am

My memory makes me lol. I completely forgot that this existed.

I like how you only used comparisons where Shinon wins, like when he immediately promotes, not bothering to look at them both after she promotes. Sandbagging at its finest.

Giving Neph +2 HP/Luck and +1 Str/Def thanks to bexp (And the same as before for Shinon):

xx/20/1 Nephenee with a forged steel lance, 'A' Brom: 46.5 HP, 42.6 Atk, 29 AS, 103 Avo, 27.5 Def, 24 Res, 39 Crit, 28% Impale.
xx/20/2 Shinon with a forged steel bow, 'A' Soren: 49.4 HP, 45 Atk, 28.6 AS, 106.6 Avo, 28.4 Def, 22.4 Res, 46 Crit, 16% Deadeye

It's 2.9 HP + 2.4 Atk + 3.6 Avo + 0.9 Def + 7 Crit + 2-3 Range vs 0.4 AS + 1.6 Res + 12% Mastery. When it comes to player phases these too are incredibly close. Though I think Shinon's HP and Atk leads are more important that Neph's minor leads in AS and Res and 12% mastery activation.

Oh snap, it's practically teh same as it was before, just closer. The reason I didn't bother going on from there was because I am lazy, and I expected you to do your research and notice that the pattern is teh same throughout the game.

Laziness as it's finest, I do believe.

The rest of it just seems to be against my theory that not much happens on the enemy phase. How much do you really think can go on in an enemy phase for Nephenee? Titania and Oscar aren't so bad durably that they won't be ahead of Nephenee, Mia is wtfpwnage and if you actually cared about her concrete durability she wouldn't be 6th in the tier list. Gatrie doesn't slow down, at all, so even if he has less mov than Neph, he can get ahead of her. I don't recall Boyd getting doubled, so I don't see how his speed has anything to do with it.

I doubt enemies are likely to attack Nephenee anyway, they're in favour of low def units like Mia, Oscar and Boyd. The way which Haar goes has, like, all weakened enemies everyone can kill. Then Janaff/Ulki come along. Along with Mordy and Ranulf some chapters before. Reyson increases Player phase output as well. I never said Neph's not getting any enemy phase, just that not much actually happens on enemy phase so weighing it that heavily should just not be done.

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