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Marcia v Tanith

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1 Marcia v Tanith on Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:39 pm

(made the list since nobody jumped in after my warning)

Anybody think Tanith could fall below Marcia?

Discussion at Serenes

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2 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:10 pm

Marcia just got flung over her on the Serenes List.

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3 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:42 pm

Well, not sure if the Mia topic was a smokescreen blocking people from disagreeing with upping Marcia, but if that's the case it's not really my problem. Nobody disputed it at all here or at Serenes, so up Marcia goes.

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4 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:07 pm

I looked at what was written on Serenes, and there definitely wasn't enough discussion to prompt a move.

For starters, nobody placed any emphasis on the rather sizeable durability lead Tanith has on Marcia.

Base Tanith: 32 hp, 15 def, 13 res, 66 avo
20/3 Marcia: 33 hp, 14 def, 14 res, 53 avo

Vs a 90 hit enemy (WTN): 28 hit vs Marcia, 12 hit vs Tanith.
Vs a 100 hit enemy (WTN): 45 hit vs Marcia, 23 hit vs Tanith.

In the topic you guys just said "she wins avoid" without realizing it makes Tanith face hit rates about half as large as Marcia does. That's already better than any stat lead Marcia may build up over time IMO.

Second, the comparison only looked at Tanith's joining time with the assumption that Marcia surpasses her due to faster levelling. This doesn't take into account that Tanith's durability lead increases due to supports.

Eg/

Tanith lv --/15 (B Oscar, B Marcia): 35 hp, 16 def, 14 res, 96 avo

Marcia lv 20/9 (B Tanith, B whoever): 37 hp, 16 def, 16 res, 68 avo

Despite Marcia catching up in levels, their concrete durability is still roughly the same and the avo gap has grown from 13 to 28.

Taking a quick look on offense, Marcia has a 1 point edge in strength + whatever her primary support gives her. If necessary I'll show that their RKOing will be more or less the same, so Marcia's advantage is minor.

Next, reinforce got badly brushed over because "they're hard to control". First off, there's plenty of functions they can serve no matter how unpredictably they act. Directing them to enemy reinforcements and using them as ballista bait come to mind. Then you can summon 2 seraph knights that are basically superior to any unit you have in your army before supports until like chp 25, and even if they act stupidly, they're going to help kill enemies regardless. The only way they could act as a detriment is if you actually planned on using one of them for cover and they don't move in the spot you wanted them to or something like that.

And yes, Marcia does win availability, but she's really mediocre until nearing promotion, so you can't just hand her the win thoughtlessly based on that.

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5 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:47 pm

Vykan12 wrote:I looked at what was written on Serenes, and there definitely wasn't enough discussion to prompt a move.

For starters, nobody placed any emphasis on the rather sizeable durability lead Tanith has on Marcia.

Base Tanith: 32 hp, 15 def, 13 res, 66 avo
20/3 Marcia: 33 hp, 14 def, 14 res, 53 avo
20/3 Marcia with B Kieran: ~58 avo, maybe 57. 16.8 str, so a 55% chance of having a 2 mt difference with supports in mind.
26 mt vs 28 mt with steel lance.
31 mt vs 33 mt with forge/silver lance
Also she could be 20/4 giving a 63% of 17 str and 17.2 by averages, also 44% of 18 str.

Anyway,

4x Soldier lv 16-18 (steel lance)
34 hp, 21 atk, 9 AS, 98 hit, 22 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev
1x Soldier lv 18 (javelin)
33 hp, 16 atk, 10 AS, 89 hit, 24 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

2x Bishop lv 1 (light, mend)
28 hp, 16 atk, 9 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 5 def, 18 res, 4 crit, 6 cev
(not sure there is much significance in possibly OHKOing)

1x General lv 1 (short spear, vulnerary)
32 hp, 22 atk, 6 AS, 93 hit, 15 avo, 17 def, 9 res, 5 crit, 3 ce

I suppose Tanith wins on 18AS ravens, though.

Also, that lead will increase. She'll only have 1 from supports, but if they get levels at a 5 to 3 ratio then Marcia will keep building.


Vs a 90 hit enemy (WTN): 28 hit vs Marcia, 12 hit vs Tanith.
Vs a 100 hit enemy (WTN): 45 hit vs Marcia, 23 hit vs Tanith.
58 vs 66.

32 vs 24: 20.8 vs. 11.76
42 vs 34: 35.7 vs. 23.46

Why didn't Marcia get B Kieran?


In the topic you guys just said "she wins avoid" without realizing it makes Tanith face hit rates about half as large as Marcia does. That's already better than any stat lead Marcia may build up over time IMO.
Well, not really half anymore. As hit rates decrease it approaches half, but keep in mind that in chapter 18 enemies have mostly low 20s in atk, so when you are being 4 or 5HKOd by much of the map the avoid win is a getting healed less thing, not really a limiting of offence thing. It's not like they are getting 2 and 3 HKOd here. Well, the fighters, they 3HKO, but they also have axes and both the falcons have access to swords. There should be an iron forge nobody wants anymore kicking around, but even if not an iron sword 2RKOs anyway, and Tanith would need a maxed steel forge of either sword or lance to ORKO. Maybe not maxed, but I think its close. So Marcia faces like 22 hit from them anyway, translating to 9.9% true. When you consider that they 3HKO its kinda sad already.


Second, the comparison only looked at Tanith's joining time with the assumption that Marcia surpasses her due to faster levelling. This doesn't take into account that Tanith's durability lead increases due to supports.

Eg/

Tanith lv --/15 (B Oscar, B Marcia): 35 hp, 16 def, 14 res, 96 avo

Marcia lv 20/9 (B Tanith, B whoever): 37 hp, 16 def, 16 res, 68 avo

Despite Marcia catching up in levels, their concrete durability is still roughly the same and the avo gap has grown from 13 to 28.
6 levels vs. 5 levels with a 7 level difference? Really? So 20/10 Marcia has 25.2 and 13.6, so 79 avo for Marcia with a BB Tanith/Kieran. Also, how'd you get 68? Even 20/9 and rounding down means 24 and 13, so 48 + 13 + 10 = 71 avo.

Anyway, Tanith has 26 spd and 19.5 luck, so 101.5.
So 101.5 vs. 79. Sure, 22.5 is pretty big now, certainly more than the 8 it was at the start.

Also, there are 3 chapters along the way in which Oscar isn't supporting yet or hasn't hit B yet, so it takes a while before it jumps to a bigger lead.

Then there is how they might decide to go off somewhere together since they are fliers and they can. 81.5 vs. 74. Again an ~8 avo difference.

I'll just look at chapter 24 since that is how long it takes for Oscar to get to B with Tanith.

The highest hit on the map is a 114 hit swordmaster. So 104 against lances. 25 against Marcia, negligible against Tanith. 12.75 hit. 37hp/16def for Marcia. 23 atk for the guy, 22 thanks to WTD. So he 7HKOs Marcia. This is the highest dude on the map. Sure, Tanith wins durability, but how significant is a guy that 7HKOs Marcia at 12.75% hit? Is that really enough to outweigh the availability and offense leads? Also, there are still things hovering around 90 hit that have axes and almost no hope of hitting Marcia with a sword. Or lance users that 7HKO or worse at 13 listed.

I mean, its nice that Tanith never needs healing, but we have Mist and Rhys and the ability to steal multiple physic staves and I'm just not seeing much reason to care over the fact I may heal Marcia twice a map and not heal Tanith at all.


Next, 19.6 str vs. 18 str. A 2.6 mt difference. Good chance of 3.

Taking a quick look on offense, Marcia has a 1 point edge in strength + whatever her primary support gives her. If necessary I'll show that their RKOing will be more or less the same, so Marcia's advantage is minor.
A 2 mt difference? I'm sure there will be things that require a forge for one and not the other. Or something anyway. And it could be as much as 6 damage depending on how the levels go. 12 with braves, though I'm not sure how often either one would get it.


Next, reinforce got badly brushed over because "they're hard to control". First off, there's plenty of functions they can serve no matter how unpredictably they act. Directing them to enemy reinforcements and using them as ballista bait come to mind. Then you can summon 2 seraph knights that are basically superior to any unit you have in your army before supports until like chp 25, and even if they act stupidly, they're going to help kill enemies regardless. The only way they could act as a detriment is if you actually planned on using one of them for cover and they don't move in the spot you wanted them to or something like that.
I'd like stats on them. I remember the promoted one being decent, but keep in mind Tanith gives up two player phases and they start at the back having to catch up. Maybe I want Tanith attacking a bow user on turn 1 or 2.


And yes, Marcia does win availability, but she's really mediocre until nearing promotion, so you can't just hand her the win thoughtlessly based on that.
Even if she's mediocre, and I'll let someone else handle that one, she's not likely getting no utility. There is desert, flying, saving houses while flying over other stuff to get there faster, I'm sure even if she's just mediocre she's getting plenty of utility out of having just her and Jill able to fly.



Last edited by Narga_Rocks on Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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6 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:11 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:I'd like stats on them. I remember the promoted one being decent, but keep in mind Tanith gives up two player phases and they start at the back having to catch up. Maybe I want Tanith attacking a bow user on turn 1 or 2.
Since I just happen to be on Ch. 18 anyway:

Lvl 1 Falconknight, Silver Lance
32 HP, 17 STR, 6 MAG, 23 SKL, 23 SPD, 14 LCK, 14 DEF, 18 RES

2x Lvl 10 Pegasus Knight, Javelin
25 HP, 13 STR, 3 MAG, 19 SKL, 20 SPD, 13 LCK, 11 DEF, 13 RES

Stats vary on the pegs, so it's probably a base + growths thing.

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7 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:24 pm

Oscar much prefers Kieran over Tanith [He can get the Kieran support much earlier and Tanith is even more overkilled avo since he already has Ike] so I don't think Tanith/Oscar is very viable for that reason.

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8 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:41 pm

bblader1 wrote:Oscar much prefers Kieran over Tanith [He can get the Kieran support much earlier and Tanith is even more overkilled avo since he already has Ike] so I don't think Tanith/Oscar is very viable for that reason.


I was assuming Oscar x Kieran x Tanith x Marcia make a square, though I'm not sure how much that hurts Ike. But these 4 have 8 or 9 move each and all have canto and they can pretty much march through the entire game without dying this way, so I think it could be worth it.

Ike would be stuck with Titania + Soren, though. He'd only get 30 avo from AB, or 32 from BA. He'd also get 1 mt and 1 def and 7 or 5 hit.
1, 1, 7, 30
1, 1, 5, 32

Also Titania and Soren are much slower than Oscar.
8/11/26 (Titania)
5/12/19 (Soren)

5/8/11 (Oscar)


As for Oscar:
5/8/11 Ike
2/5/8 Kieran
3/6/9 Tanith

He can have AB Kieran/Ike by chapter 19, or BA Kieran/Ike by chapter 16.

He'd get:
7 hit, 42 avo in chapter 19
or
5 hit, 45 avo in chapter 16


Compared to an A with Kieran only giving him:
22 avo in chapter 19 while he's waiting for Tanith x Oscar to build.


I agree that he'd prefer not taking Tanith, and Ike would probably prefer he doesn't take Tanith, but Kieran may not be in play, or Ike may not support Oscar.
30 avo while waiting for Tanith to build compared to 42 or 45 avo if Oscar supports Ike but not Kieran.

Too bad he'd have to wait until chapter 24 to get a B Tanith, though, because the square would be fun if Tanith arrived sooner.

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9 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:30 pm

From Ike vs Tanith (lots of relevant #s there, so probably worth a look)

1x Pegasus Knight lv 10 (javelin)
20 hp, 16 atk, 15 AS, 98 hit, 40 avo, 8 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 10 cev

1x Pegagus Knight lv 10 (steel lance)
26 hp, 24 atk, 20 AS, 121 hit, 53 avo, 11 def, 12 res, 9 crit, 13 cev

Falcon Knight lv 1 (silver lance)
32 hp, 32 atk, 24 AS, 137 hit, 62 avo, 15 def, 18 res, 12 crit, 14 cev


Pretty much the same as what Int got.

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10 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:56 pm

20/3 Marcia with B Kieran: ~58 avo, maybe 57. 16.8 str, so a 55% chance of having a 2 mt difference with supports in mind.

Point taken.

I was going to protest that Fire x Wind sucks (partial bonuses to everything but hit), but then Kieran’s only other option is Rhys =S

Also, she could be 20/4 giving a 63% of 17 str and 17.2 by averages, also 44% of 18 str.

Again, not sure if I agree with a level that high. Marcia joins in C9 at lv 5, and she’s bound to struggle in her joining chapter, which she happens to join partway. This is especially bad if Ike doesn’t want to stay back for her, as she’ll spend most of the chapter playing catch-up. Anyway, we’re talking 19 levels in 8-9 chapters, which is basically the same rate at which Int was power levelling Mia.

4x Soldier lv 16-18 (steel lance)

34 hp, 21 atk, 9 AS, 98 hit, 22 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev
1x Soldier lv 18 (javelin)
33 hp, 16 atk, 10 AS, 89 hit, 24 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

2x Bishop lv 1 (light, mend)
28 hp, 16 atk, 9 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 5 def, 18 res, 4 crit, 6 cev
(not sure there is much significance in possibly OHKOing)

1x General lv 1 (short spear, vulnerary)
32 hp, 22 atk, 6 AS, 93 hit, 15 avo, 17 def, 9 res, 5 crit, 3 ce

Um, where’s your analysis? I looked a bit lazily and the only difference I see is that Tanith borderline 1RKOes the soldier with a steel lance whereas Marcia can kill him cleanly.

And just to throw it out there, Tanith has a nice advantage in weapon levels, particularly swords (A rank vs E-D rank). That gives her offence + durability advantages through WTA, gives her a higher chance of landing special weapons, etc. Oh, and Tanith has a nice advantage in the mag stat, which means she can use the SS, flame lance and runesword better than Marcia. Doesn’t sound like much but being able to 1RKO a tiger uncountered is pretty cool.

Why didn't Marcia get B Kieran?

Even if I did account for that, it would give Marcia 5 avo. Tanith getting 15 avo through swords some of the time while Marcia doesn’t more than compensates for that.

Well, not really half anymore. As hit rates decrease it approaches half, but keep in mind that in chapter 18 enemies have mostly low 20s in atk, so when you are being 4 or 5HKOd by much of the map the avoid win is a getting healed less thing, not really a limiting of offence thing.
There will always be situations where Tanith’s offence is limited less than Marcia due to durability considerations. There are laguz (high accuracy), snipers (accurate and double Mt), ballistae (generally too dangerous anyway without the FG but still) and dragons that become increasingly prevalent the further you get into the game. Also, Marcia gets 3HKOed by axe users that also have WTA on her unless she wants to kill her offence with an iron sword.

There should be an iron forge nobody wants anymore kicking around, but even if not an iron sword 2RKOs anyway, and Tanith would need a maxed steel forge of either sword or lance to ORKO.

You have to give consideration to other enemies that might be around.

I mean, its nice that Tanith never needs healing, but we have Mist and Rhys and the ability to steal multiple physic staves and I'm just not seeing much reason to care over the fact I may heal Marcia twice a map and not heal Tanith at all.

I mean, it’s nice that Marcia can ORKO some enemies that Tanith does 90% damage to, but we have 2 filler units being deployed that can clean up her garbage. I’m just not seeing much reason to care over the fact that Marcia cleanly kills a few enemies that Tanith misses out on.

The imitation isn’t meant to be offensive in any way, it’s just a matter of conveying my point.

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11 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:07 pm

Any chance Marcia gets A Lances for chapter 18? She starts D lances and needs 150 wexp to get to A. Well, probably 2 or 3 chapters with iron which only gives 1x2 and 6 or 7 chapters with steel giving 2x2.

Say, 30 wexp in the first 3 chapters. Like, maybe 6 attacks without doubling and 12 attacks with. 120 left. 120/4 = 30 doubles with steel. In 6 chapters that means 5 attacks per chapter. Maybe 6 or 7 per to account for non-doubles and iron/heavy spear use.

If Marcia has A lances and Tanith starts with B that gives Marcia the advantage that she doesn't actually need a steel forge to go above 30 mt. What's the competition like for the chapter 16 silver lance?

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12 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:08 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Again, not sure if I agree with a level that high.
Based on what are you disagreeing with her level? It's pretty silly for you to balk at Marcia being 20/3 in Ch. 18, when that was where my lowest non-Ike combatant wound up. If Ilyana can pull it off, I'm not sure how Marcia can fail to.

Just to recap for you: 8 serious fighters, plus enough BEXP from take Nephenee from 7 to (almost) 20/1.

Marcia's only truly bad chapter is 9, because you fix her in Ch. 10's base.

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13 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:10 pm

...Wow, weapon levels are such a non issue in PoR that one whizzed right by me.

Oscar/Ti/Neph probably want a stab at the lance (maybe Devdan?), but Marcia maybe getting it is better than Tanith never getting it.

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14 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:18 pm

Narga said 20/4 (I assumed 20/3 in my comparison). Also, 8 units is really not that much in C18 considering your team is basically made. Aside from Tanith and Reyson, only Geoffrey is mid tier or higher as a joining unit in the second half of the game. It's not like low manning shows any benefit either due to the game's apparent lack of difficulty. Better to have 10 units ORKOing consistently than 8 units to ORKO ever so slightly more consistently.

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15 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:34 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Narga said 20/4 (I assumed 20/3 in my comparison).
There is nothing wrong with Marcia being 20/4, either.

Also, 8 units is really not that much in C18 considering your team is basically made. Aside from Tanith and Reyson, only Geoffrey is mid tier or higher as a joining unit in the second half of the game. It's not like low manning shows any benefit either due to the game's apparent lack of difficulty. Better to have 10 units ORKOing consistently than 8 units to ORKO ever so slightly more consistently.
Is this supposed to be some sort of counter-argument?

When I have a bunch of guys that essentially ORKO and never die, two more doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Enemy units just march into the wood-chipper and get mulched. Eight combatants is plenty of Player Phase offense when half of them have Canto. By the way, I actually have nine people, since my BEXP banked is enough to create another one out of thin air in one or two chapters.

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16 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:36 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Narga said 20/4 (I assumed 20/3 in my comparison). Also, 8 units is really not that much in C18 considering your team is basically made. Aside from Tanith and Reyson, only Geoffrey is mid tier or higher as a joining unit in the second half of the game. It's not like low manning shows any benefit either due to the game's apparent lack of difficulty. Better to have 10 units ORKOing consistently than 8 units to ORKO ever so slightly more consistently.


20/4 was because 20/3 has just a 55% chance of 17 str. I decided to point out what the next level brings. The rest of my post was assuming a 20/3 Marcia (in some cases assuming she proc'd that str). For example, my complaint about 20/9 Marcia was that it was only 6 levels in that time period. Tanith got 5 levels to Marcia's 6 despite the level disparity. 7 levels to 20/10 makes 20/3 to 20/10.

Really, the only time 20/4 was mentioned was in the context of getting a 63% chance of 17 str. Otherwise I'd also have been using 55 + 5 = 60 avo in the comparison. And mention 34 hp.


Although I don't think I have any issues against a 20/4 Marcia. Just saying I only included her in one brief not to up a chance from 55 to 63. 55 is still over 50.

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17 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:42 pm

When I have a bunch of guys that essentially ORKO and never die, two more doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Sure it does. You have more people to spread out in a rout map, and added flexibility everywhere. For example, a filler unit probably has to avoid combat altogether when doing whatever they do (shove, staves, rescue, drop, trade items to top of inventory, etc) whereas a beefed unit doesn't.

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18 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:45 pm

How badly CAN you say people will usually ORKO anyway? Obviously 10-12 units that ORK everything on the map>>>8 units that can ORK everything on the map.

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19 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:54 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Sure it does. You have more people to spread out in a rout map, and added flexibility everywhere. For example, a filler unit probably has to avoid combat altogether when doing whatever they do (shove, staves, rescue, drop, trade items to top of inventory, etc) whereas a beefed unit doesn't.
It makes some difference. It does not make a lot of difference. You get diminishing returns on ever-larger armies, because of Enemy Phase. Just because nine powerful units is technically better than eight of the same, does not mean that the difference is enough to care about, particularly they are not the same. Increasing the size of the army necessarily lowers the individual power of your units by reducing everyone's level.

You hand-wave away the difference between 2-3 levels on a unit in Ch. 18, even as a 20/1 vs. a 20/4 Marcia makes a clear difference for the comparison that's staring you right in the face. Never mind that "inflated" levels at Ch. 18 are not a result of a massive dump just before 17 started, but rather a concerted effort to always keep a key number of units sufficiently leveled for dome-piece rocking, aka they are benefiting from the word go.

Your argument against it is a double-handful of bupkis.

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20 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:32 pm

Even if Marcia is 20/5 in C18, my stance doesn't change on Tanith being > Marcia.

Though just to be stubborn, if use 12 units seriously by C18 (12 is around the maximum deployment average), then you'd expect every unit to gain 66-75% of what they would gain in an 8-9 man army. It would probably be slightly higher due to how exp curves work, and also variable unit jointimes. Still, if the amount is as high as 85%, Marcia gets 3 levels cut off.

I don't see why it matters if larger armies have diminishing returns because the army is better regardless, nor do I understand why someone would pass up an obvious benefit, negligible or not (that and insignificant benefits accumulate over time). Are you saying that a 12 man army is quite easily inferior to an 8 man one?

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21 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:49 am

Vykan12 wrote:Even if Marcia is 20/5 in C18, my stance doesn't change on Tanith being > Marcia.
So be it, I disagree (for reasons of availibility), but that's not really germane to what I'm talking about, which is realistic levels for characters.

I don't see why it matters if larger armies have diminishing returns because the army is better regardless, nor do I understand why someone would pass up an obvious benefit, negligible or not (that and insignificant benefits accumulate over time). Are you saying that a 12 man army is quite easily inferior to an 8 man one?
The reason why you don't see that it matters is because you're ignoring the downside cost of deploying so many people. Given that, the altogether negligable benefit seems like a net win to you. Well, the problem is that candy bars aren't free. It does cost you to retard the growth of your characters, even the best ones. You hand-wave away 2-3 levels like it was nothing, but it can be significant.

From my own playthrough, each chapter I had to sprinkle (or force-feed) BEXP around in order to put people at optimal fighting strength. In Ch. 8, Boyd needed levels to ORKO his side of the map, Oscar needed them in the same to get his effective AS high enough to consistently double, Mia so that she could 3HKO/2RKO Armors. Titania needed STR for Handaxe shenangians (the southern strategy is diminished if she leaves a lot paladins with 2-4 HP left). Ilyana needed BEXP in Ch. 9 so that she could double a bit in her first real chapter. Kieran needed a boost in Ch. 11 so that he could double effectively as well. Mia got a boost in Ch. 12 so that I had someone who could ORKO Ravens. Astrid got a big dump so that she could get to Promo/Axes ASAP.

Etc. The net effect of all of this BEXP-intervention is that people wind up being really high level by the time that Ch. 18 rolls around.

This is not H5, where everyone is getting two-shotted at high hit rates, and the enemies are monsters that get 3-4RKO'ed or some other BS. Deploying a bunch of PCs is tied to survival in that case. No, this is PoR, where exactly the opposite is the case: I can send Oscar and Kieran off by themselves into a cloud of half a dozen guys, without endangering the two of them in the process. But it's not cost-free to get them to that level of performance, I have to make sure that they have the AS to double, the mt to 2HKO (if possible), and the durability to pull it all off.

Deploying too many people makes it harder to reach those platforms. It would be fine if there were some tangible, worthwhile benefit for putting so many boots on the ground, that would counter-act the downside of being lower-levelled, but there is not. The maps are not overly large, the enemies are not ridiculous enough, and eight people is already a significant number of combatants.

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22 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:44 pm

Everyone is forgetting that whatever BEXP Marcia received, Tanith is equally entitled to. The BEXP is not going to go anywhere if we don't use it on Marcia.

Of course at this point I'm going to get retarded "LOLSOVIETFE" despite the fact that, contrary to popular belief, we are NOT forced to field both Marcia and Tanith simultaneously, and thus whatever resources Marcia uses up, would not have been used up if Tanith were there instead.

I can basically just link back to my unit A + team vs unit B + team topic (which, by the way, I was never actually countered, since the ppl in that topic "countered" only my example and not my main point". Saying why you think RD Mia > Titania doesn't change the fact that comparisons should be unit A + team vs unit B + team).

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23 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:56 pm

smash fanatic wrote:Everyone is forgetting that whatever BEXP Marcia received, Tanith is equally entitled to. The BEXP is not going to go anywhere if we don't use it on Marcia.

Of course at this point I'm going to get retarded "LOLSOVIETFE" despite the fact that, contrary to popular belief, we are NOT forced to field both Marcia and Tanith simultaneously, and thus whatever resources Marcia uses up, would not have been used up if Tanith were there instead.
I hope you're not suggesting we save the BEXP that we'd use on Marcia for Manith.

Manith doesn't show up until Ch. 18, so if Manith's army doesn't necessarily have Marcia in it, it's certainly going to have someone else in that logical deployment slot, who is probably going to get the BEXP. Granted, Marcia takes more than most, more than Mia even, but even the High tiers need to use BEXP in this game, so...?

You need to clarify what you mean by Manith being "entitled" to whatever BEXP that Marcia would use.

I can basically just link back to my unit A + team vs unit B + team topic (which, by the way, I was never actually countered, since the ppl in that topic "countered" only my example and not my main point". Saying why you think RD Mia > Titania doesn't change the fact that comparisons should be unit A + team vs unit B + team).
This sounds like something that you should post in General, since it's the sort of thing that can be argued about generically. If you keep your capital letter count below 10% or so, and don't pre-counter other people or make assumptions about their positions -- in other words, if you debate like an adult -- it will probably be an interesting discussion.

EDIT: although, if your only point was that A and B should be considered on seperate "teams", that's already the conventional wisdom.

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24 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:50 pm

You need to clarify what you mean by Manith being "entitled" to whatever BEXP that Marcia would use.

Marcia uses up a certain amount of BEXP, and that resource consumption is a negative (ie a drawback in using Marcia. It doesn't at all mean her overall usefulness is negative). We can either give Tanith some abstract advantage for not having used any BEXP yet or give her the same negative by assigning her similar amounts of BEXP (or perhaps another resource like a stat booster).

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25 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:14 pm

I hardly see it changing much (especially since her growths are mediocre compared to Marcia) but Tanith SHOULD get a BEXP dump equal to the amount Marcia took for fairness's sake.

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26 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:21 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Marcia uses up a certain amount of BEXP, and that resource consumption is a negative (ie a drawback in using Marcia. It doesn't at all mean her overall usefulness is negative). We can either give Tanith some abstract advantage for not having used any BEXP yet or give her the same negative by assigning her similar amounts of BEXP (or perhaps another resource like a stat booster).
Giving BEXP to Marcia is only a negative in the sense that BEXP given to her is BEXP that we can't give to anyone else. This would be a large negative if we didn't have much BEXP.

Fortunately for Marcia, there is a whole lot of BEXP to go around. As a result, unless she's needing Rolf levels of BEXP to perform (and she does not), giving very much to Manith in exchange is inappropriate. I once again direct you to the repeatedly-ignored results of my Mia playthrough -- where I had a rape-face team and enough BEXP leftover to choke a horse -- as evidence of what I just claimed.


@BBlade: what does fairness have to do with efficiency?

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27 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:26 pm

@BBlade: what does fairness have to do with efficiency?

...How is giving BEXP to Tanith inefficient? 222 BEXP to lvl isn't so much worse than 160~ that it turns characters into EXP vacuums or anything. Or if you're not using the EXP leech argument, then riddle me this, why do our uber characters who ORKO everything and never die [in your own words] care about BEXP so badly?

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28 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:36 pm

bblader1 wrote:...How is giving BEXP to Tanith inefficient?
Excuse me... you said "for fairness' sake". I asked what fairness had to do with efficiency, since efficiency is what we're measuring here. Please don't answer my questions with questions.

222 BEXP to lvl isn't so much worse than 160~ that it turns characters into EXP vacuums or anything.
Nothing wrong with giving Manith 222 BEXP to take her to 20/11, except that Marcia also exists at this same time in her army, aka she can take Ch. 18's BEXP as well. Manith is going to lose that match-up, given her growths and base level.

Or if you're not using the EXP leech argument, then riddle me this, why do our uber characters who ORKO everything and never die [in your own words] care about BEXP so badly?
Because they need BEXP to do all of that, with the sole exception of Titania (who nonetheless still benefits from KW levels in base).

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29 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:45 pm

Excuse me... you said "for fairness' sake". I asked what fairness had to do with efficiency, since efficiency is what we're measuring here. Please don't answer my questions with questions.

And if it's not inefficient to give Tanith a BEXP dump equal to the amount of all the BEXP Marcia is given, then who cares?


Nothing wrong with giving Manith 222 BEXP to take her to 20/11, except that Marcia also exists at this same time in her army, aka she can take Ch. 18's BEXP as well. Manith is going to lose that match-up, given her growths and base level.

Of course she can take it too, but she's already taken tons of it. It makes more sense to give BEXP to units that haven't receive it yet as opposed to units who've already gotten pumped full of tons of it.

And yes I agree that Marcia wins the matchup even when Tanith is given BEXP. But I'm saying Tanith should be given BEXP too.


Because they need BEXP to do all of that, with the sole exception of Titania (who nonetheless still benefits from KW levels in base).

Well, then it's a good thing they've already collected loads of it, and are more than uber enough to rape C18 inside out.

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30 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:56 pm

bblader1 wrote:And if it's not inefficient to give Tanith a BEXP dump equal to the amount of all the BEXP Marcia is given, then who cares?
Like I said: it's fine to give Manith X BEXP in Ch 18, but understand that Marcia also exists in Ch. 18 in her army, so the BEXP can also go to her. That does mean that Marcia is getting more BEXP total than Manith, but Marcia is around for longer. C'est la vie. That's what happens.

Of course she can take it too, but she's already taken tons of it. It makes more sense to give BEXP to units that haven't receive it yet as opposed to units who've already gotten pumped full of tons of it.
It doesn't really matter that Marcia is taking a lot of BEXP, unless she is taking so much that it actually paupers the rest of the army to do so.

You say that it "makes sense" to give BEXP to units who haven't gotten any yet. How does it make sense? Again: this is an efficiency tier list. Dividing BEXP up evenly is not an efficent use of that resource.

And yes I agree that Marcia wins the matchup even when Tanith is given BEXP. But I'm saying Tanith should be given BEXP too.
I don't really care who wins or loses the match-up, the issue I have is that people are giving Manith stuff without supporting it adequately.

Well, then it's a good thing they've already collected loads of it, and are more than uber enough to rape C18 inside out.
Collected and spent, sir. BEXP doesn't help you complete the game when it's rotting in your convoy. Yes, that does mean that the BEXP I had leftover was almost certainly an inefficiency in my strategy.

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31 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:21 pm

Giving BEXP to Marcia is only a negative in the sense that BEXP given to her is BEXP that we can't give to anyone else. This would be a large negative if we didn't have much BEXP.

I’m not sure why the quantity of BEXP available is important since it’s a resource that you’re constantly going to be using up right away.

Fortunately for Marcia, there is a whole lot of BEXP to go around. As a result, unless she's needing Rolf levels of BEXP to perform (and she does not), giving very much to Manith in exchange is inappropriate.

I’m not suggesting Tanith simply gets a lot of BEXP in exchange. I’m saying the amount she gets should be about the same as what Marcia is getting.

I.E. if Marcia gets 50 BEXP, so should Tanith at some point. Same idea for 5000 BEXP.

Like I said: it's fine to give Manith X BEXP in Ch 18, but understand that Marcia also exists in Ch. 18 in her army, so the BEXP can also go to her. That does mean that Marcia is getting more BEXP total than Manith, but Marcia is around for longer. C'est la vie. That's what happens.

Marcia's army is forced to give her BEXP between Ch9-18. Tanith's army has the freedom to put that BEXP into any unit they want, even Marcia herself if she's in play.

In whatever way it's accounted for, Tanith has an advantage on Marcia if Marcia's used any BEXP at all up to C18.

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32 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:37 pm

Vykan12 wrote:I’m not sure why the quantity of BEXP available is important since it’s a resource that you’re constantly going to be using up right away.
The quantity is important because it influences the cost of giving someone some fixed amount of BEXP. It's somewhat simliar, though not entirely analogous to, the difference in the cost of a Speedwing when we have two versus when we have ten.

I’m not suggesting Tanith simply gets a lot of BEXP in exchange. I’m saying the amount she gets should be about the same as what Marcia is getting.

I.E. if Marcia gets 50 BEXP, so should Tanith at some point. Same idea for 5000 BEXP.
I understand the English words spilling forth from your keyboard. My problem is not with comprehension of your point. My issue is that your point is not supported with an argument that can be reconciled with an efficiency tier list.

You can't give Manith something just because Marcia got something similar 9 chapters ago. Sharing is not caring in Fire Emblem. Giving Manith BEXP equivalent to Marcia's take will put Manith in the hole.

Marcia's army is forced to give her BEXP between Ch9-18. Tanith's army has the freedom to put that BEXP into any unit they want, even Marcia herself if she's in play.

In whatever way it's accounted for, Tanith has an advantage on Marcia if Marcia's used any BEXP at all up to C18.
Manith has nothing to do with chapters prior to Ch. 18. When there is enough BEXP for all earlygamers to get what they need (well, except for Rolf perhaps), it's not much of an advantage for Manith's army to put BEXP wherever it wants.

If BEXP was a scarce resource and/or Marcia took so much that hard choices had to be made regarding the rest of the army, you would have a point. This is, basically, how BEXP ends up working in Radiant Dawn.

But, this is not RD.

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33 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:55 pm

When there is enough BEXP for all earlygamers to get what they need (well, except for Rolf perhaps), it's not much of an advantage for Manith's army to put BEXP wherever it wants.

There is no clear line as to what all earlygamers need. Any unit is subject to improvement since nobody 1HKOes the entire map while having 50 def and infinite move. And while the game supposedly takes a diarrhea dump on the concept of difficulty, there are some things to consider:

-Many units have trouble ORKOing wyverns and armors unless their level is lavishly inflated or they're given a max Mt forge.
-In a similar vein, many units have trouble ORKOing with hand weapons.
-Some enemies are extremely hard to double.

That's not even mentioning anything about durability. Increased freedom with BEXP is worth more than you're giving it credit for, IMO.

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34 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:27 pm

Assuming Marcia's team lacks Tanith.
Tanith's team may or may not have Marcia, it isn't relevant.

Let's say, Marcia's team has 8 mains. (Mist and Rhys may or may not be among the "mains", but either way they are present for healing)
Tanith's team has 8 mains. Unfortunately for the first part of the game, Tanith's team only has 7.


Tanith's team:


extra bexp that Marcia didn't take. This was either spread to units that have already reached the point where the reality of the existence of diminishing marginal returns becomes glaringly obvious, or it's hoarded for Tanith's appearance. Neither of those seem like an advantage over Marcia and her team, not to mention how Tanith's team is weaker through the more difficult part of the game than Marcia's team, because 8 units that have just reached a plateau of performance is certainly better than 7 units that have an extra ~70 bexp each (or none extra to save for Tanith's appearance) and haven't really upped their performance by enough to make up for the lost unit.

So, your other option is to field an eighth unit in Tanith's team before Tanith shows up. This unit is going to need bexp to operate on the level the 8th unit in Marcia's team would be. So, Tanith's team basically has no more bexp than Marcia's team. The only differences would be in how its spread. Then drop that eighth unit when Manith appears and Tanith's team is in the exact same situation as Marcia's team was at chapter 18. So Marcia's team can either field Tanith or not, it makes no difference in the comparison.

Basically, there is no reason at chapter 18 to say:
Let's give Tanith x bexp, but Marcia can't get x more bexp at this point since she already took y bexp earlier.

In other words, any bexp you give to Tanith at this point can equally go to Marcia, and there is no logical reason to claim that Tanith is more entitled to it. Well, unless Marcia has hit a plateau and the next plateau is too expensive to reach (like 5 levels away or something), but Tanith is only 2 levels from a plateau. Then there is more reason to give Tanith extra bexp compared to Marcia in chapter 18. Prove that and you'll likely even get Interceptor to agree.


Spoiler:
I created the only two "Popular" topics on the board. Most posts, most views for any one topic.



Last edited by Narga_Rocks on Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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35 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:30 pm

Vykan12 wrote:There is no clear line as to what all earlygamers need.
There is no universal formula into which I can input resources and then obtain a roadmap for Victory<tm>. However, things like enemy stats, player unit base levels, amounts of BEXP, items, forges, etc are all knowns. It also becomes exceedingly obvious how much flexibility that you have in this game, if you actually sit down and play the game with an eye towards winning.

Any unit is subject to improvement since nobody 1HKOes the entire map while having 50 def and infinite move.
This is a nonsense point. Obviously basically any unit is subject to improvement, this is not something that is in dispute. The issue is not the existence of improvement, it is the MAGNITUDE of improvement. Beleive it or not, most units in this game have optimal levels of performance at any given time, given availible resources. Once you reach a point, it becomes increasingly harder to justify continuing, because the cost of resources doesn't go down but the relative benefit recieved from them DOES.

For example, in Fixed Mode, getting Boyd past level 10 in Ch. 8 doesn't make any sense, if he has a forge. He's already performing very well, further levels won't increase his kill rate substantially, and his durabiltiy will only go up by a little, all at the cost of more and more BEXP.

-Many units have trouble ORKOing wyverns and armors unless their level is lavishly inflated or they're given a max Mt forge.
-In a similar vein, many units have trouble ORKOing with hand weapons.
-Some enemies are extremely hard to double.

That's not even mentioning anything about durability. Increased freedom with BEXP is worth more than you're giving it credit for, IMO.
These points are all well and good, except that the lot of them taken together do not add up to a refutation of my argument. The map is not lousy with Dracos and Armors and Myrmidons, which are all units that you have countermeasures for anyway.

The salient point here is that magnitude is important. If I'm only increasing a unit's performance by a small amount relative to what it was already capable of, at great cost of BEXP, what have I gained?

This is basically the worth of Manith's BEXP advantage over Marcia. Since you already have sufficient BEXP to get most people to optimal performance, what you are left spending "Manith's" BEXP on are shit-tier units like Rofl, or plowing Oscar full of BEXP so that he has the mt to ORKO 5-10% more enemies, or some other silly thing.

Again, look at my playthrough. I intentionally gave a lot of details, so that people could take my data and run with it. I think that it's pretty obvious, given my less-than-optimal deployment, that Manith's leverage over Marcia from a BEXP standpoint is very tenuous. It absolutely does not rise to the level of giving Manith himself an equivalent amount of BEXP.



EDIT: Foiled by Moriarty again.

Narga_Rocks wrote:Prove that and you'll likely even get Interceptor to agree.

Indeed, I would. Post-18 is all up in the air, since they both exist now. Though it seems unlikely.

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36 Re: Marcia v Tanith on Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:24 pm

So, has everyone against it just given up? (I don't mean accepted M > T, I just mean chosen not to bother anymore. Though if anyone has chosen to accept M > T, that's good too.)

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