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Echidna vs Bartre

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1 Echidna vs Bartre on Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:30 pm

Who is better? Well, let's check out the time when they hit immediate action, chapter 12.

First up are bows and DMs in the twisting hallway. She can double them with a handy at 94 hit to their 23-25 avoid, reducing her hit to 71-69 displayed. 20 mt to their 5-6 Def and 32-33 HP. 15-14x2 damage. Bartre with a steel bow has 104 hit and is packing 31 mt. 25-26 damage. So highest HP they see is 7, and I doubt you have anyone on your team that can't kill that that doesn't suck royally. On top of this, he has quite a bit less a chance to miss his shot. They are packing 20 mt. Echidna has 35 HP, 8 Def. 4RKO. Her avoid with a handy is 36 avoid, Bartre's is 34. Bartre has 48 HP, 10 Def. 5RKO. Advantage, Bartre.

DMs have 26 HP, 5 def. Bartre just plain ol' one shots them, victory Bartre. Only 22 avoid, he has an 84 displayed compared to Echidna's 74 and needing to land both shots.

Fighters have around 36-37 HP, 5 Def. Now, both can whip out steel. Some are weighed down enough for bartre to double with his 33 mt. Fuck, that's overkill, he could do that with a hand axe. Let's be merciful and say he can't double them, which is a fair chance. Echidna has 23 mt, Bartre has 33. Echidna could ORKO, but it's as iffy as Bartre doubling. The problem with this, is that it kills her avoid by a whopping 12 points, bringing it down to 30. They'd have 39 hit on her, and they do 26-28 Mt. 2RKO. Bartre would have dropped them to 35, and is being 3RKOd. If they carry handies, her with steel is a point shy of doubling, so she has to retort with a handy, of which Bartre could have a a steel bow. 15x2 compared to Bartre's 26.

The boss leaves her with 9 HP, and she needs the wyrmslayer to do anything, as that's the only way she can actually damage his 25 Defense. 43 mt, that's 18x2 damage to his 39 HP, not quite an ORKO. Bartre can double this guy, and we got a brave axe. 32 mt, so that's 7x4 damage. 28 damage. Both are valuable weapons, so we might not wanna fight. On the other hand, this just means more crit chances for Bartre, but Echidna will have more Acc. Way I see it, just have Rutger or Deick do it.

Bartre in chapter 13 is capable of OHKOing basic cavs with the pole axe, and they'd have 40 displayed on him supportless (7 turns for a C with Fir, 20 for a B...). They 4RKO him with steel, 5RKO him with. Echidna however cannot just OHKO them. Killer and doubling or no, not happening. She would generally do the same on a paladin as he would. However, defensively she is being 3RKOd by cav steel at 46 displayed if she wants to meet his offense in any form without having to rely on crits, and paladins with their 30 mt 2RKO her, while they 3RKO Bartre. This is the bridge, and generally this is all the enemies there are outside of mercs and dracos. Bartre does better on dracos simply because of bows. With steel, he is packing 49 mt compared to Echidna with a killer axe having 24 mt. Bartre does 49 mt to drac 13 def and 40 HP, dropping them to 6 in one shot. Echidna does 12x2 damage, and has to be up close. A crit with a hit will not kill, meaning she needs to double crit. On top of this, she has to take a counter, and takes up a much smaller number of melee spaces, Bartre does not and takes only a more numerous ranged space.

Heroes and mercs have about 15-18 speed, meaning Echidna can't double them. Means they also double Bartre. She can use swords for a more accurate kiler chance, but she's still not doubling. Bartre can whip out steel and avoid the counter, though his crit chance is much smaller. OVerall though, I'd say not taking a counter while still chipping>gambling.

You might now be saying "Well, let's give Echidna the body ring", and I'll say "well, let's give Bartre a speedwing". I can't name anyone off the top of my head who needs a speed wing aside from Lot, while the pegs would LOVE that body ring. If he's level 5 by the desert, Bartre's got a big durability lead, and can double brigands. Swordies will only do 13 damage to him, 4RKO, and again he can use his bow to avoid the counter. These bows do greater chip on wyverns, and are cheaper than having to use a wyrmslayer while having to eat their conters on the WTD. Echidna's weapon ranks are generally C B, while Bartre's is A D. Bartre could possibly have S axes now to use Armads on mamkutes. Having a bow on the desert and having the same move>swords. On top of this, he could help slay brigands down south while supporting Fir, to help her catch up n levels much quicker. Echidna could probably do that on her own, but doing the same while helping someone>doing it yourself. Fir and Bartre B support will act like he has WTA on them compared to Echidna. At level 5 actually, he has 2 more Str for 35 Mt with steel. Mages round here have 29 HP and 5 Def. BAM!

Chapter 16, only things 13 AS doesn't double are paladins, mercs and snipers, a vast minority. Mercs are posing 18 AS, no way in hell Echidna's doubling that anyways. Bartre can still OHKO mages, and with Fir support could probably do that with steel bows. Armors have 37 HP, 16 Def. Bartre would be packing 54 mt with a hammer. Clean OHKO, Fir seals the deal. His 54+1 mt ORKOs paladins. He can double the last enemies left, the fighters, and can obviously kill. Echidna's going solo, and usually needs to land 2 shots where sometimes Bartre would only need 1. Bartre with the speedwing lets him kill the only things he normally wouldn't double, the body ring doesn't help Echidna perform on Bartre's level with a wing.

If he can muster level 8 by chapter 19, Bartre is easily among your best in Ilia. A support with Fir, axes and 14 AS to double steel pegs is mowing through them with iron. Falcos might pose a problem, until he whips out a steel bow for 55 mt which OHKOs their 10 def and 41 HP. Tragically, it's 1 mt shy of OHKOing Sigurney with her 12 Def and 44 HP. Echidna could smoke pegs with her steel axe, but she can't do that well on the falcos OR Sigurney.

Sacae chapter 18, they pack 18 mt. Bartre has 11 Def at level 8, +1 from Fir and his own affinity. 6x2 damage to what would be his 52 HP. 5RKO. Echidna has 9 Def, 40 HP, not being doubled. 4RKO. On top of this, Bartre has a more accurate counter of bows compared to the hand axe or lollight brand. They have generally 35 HP, 7-8 Def. Due to neither doubling but Bartre packing far more might, Bartre wins. Hell, his crit with Fir is 21 without enemy luck factored. On top of this, we got Fir with a support for crit, which makes her a boss slayer since she should be promoted, something incredibly important in Sacae.

Chapter 21, I'll say Bartre and Echidna are 10. Bartre's 14 AS is not getting doubled. What makes Bartre scary compared to Echidna is he probably has access to killer bows by now. If he has brave bows, ORKO wyvern lords. Echidna would need a wyrmslayer to match this, which puts her out on the WTD. 47 avoid. Doesn't even drop wyvern lord hit below 70 displayed. +WTD, that's 80. Riders have generally 20 less hit, but their 40+1 mt to her 9 Def and 40 HP is a 2RKO to the point it does 31 damage. That's PAINFUL. She could go killers, but then her might would be 26 to their 19 Def and 58 HP. Double crit only does 48 damage.Doesn't even OHKO riders, with their 47 HP and 15 mt. She reduces their hit by 20, but that's still gonna be around 60-40 hit displayed. Bartre would be facing with his axes and A Fir 5 displayed from the lords, 30 from the riders, only a +10 to that if they caught him with bows. 54 HP, 11+1 Def 28 damage. Stilla 2RKO, but at least he can handle plenty other wyverns. Defensively he's better, but offensively Echidna wins simply because of wyrmslayers, since killer bows have their own fault. However, both kill their defensive playstyles with these weapons.

Chapter 22, I'd say Echidna wins due to not being doubled by the mass amount of heroes with their huge ass 18-20 AS. He could avoid their silver and braves with his killer bows, but still...Oh well, at least Bartre helps Fir perform better here.

Endgame, Bartre's the winner simply because of Armads. Red Dragons have 45 mt. Bartre at level 11 and A Fir, Armads is packing 55 HP, 18 Def. They do 27 damage. He can take 2 before he needs healing. Best part is, these guys can't possibly be any stronger, because this is them at their strength cap. So murdering more dragons>Murdering less.

Is it just me, or does Echidna only seem to win VERY slightly while still on the isles? It's a close race, but that's the point. It is a CLOSE race. Bartre with a wing solves plenty of his problems. However, Echidna needs a body ring to help keep offense going, or she needs an energy ring to do better damage later on, or she needs a robe/draco to match his durability. Basically Echidna has numerous small problems, while Bartre has one big one. Fixing Bartres 1 problem>solving several of Echidna's minor ones.

This is also ignoring that he benefits an entire other person who's a bit strapped for supports otherwise.

Thoughts? Perhaps I missed something?

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2 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:34 pm

Grandjackal wrote:First up are bows and DMs in the twisting hallway. She can double them with a handy at 94 hit to their 23-25 avoid, reducing her hit to 71-69 displayed. 20 mt to their 5-6 Def and 32-33 HP. 15-14x2 damage. Bartre with a steel bow has 104 hit and is packing 31 mt. 25-26 damage. So highest HP they see is 7, and I doubt you have anyone on your team that can't kill that that doesn't suck royally. On top of this, he has quite a bit less a chance to miss his shot. They are packing 20 mt. Echidna has 35 HP, 8 Def. 4RKO. Her avoid with a handy is 36 avoid, Bartre's is 34. Bartre has 48 HP, 10 Def. 5RKO. Advantage, Bartre.
Bartre should win on this chapter because bows are better 2-range weapons than Hand Axes, but those RKO figures hardly matter at all because at the rate you're advancing, you're not likely to actually face enough enemies that will KO either unit.

Grandjackal wrote:Fighters have around 36-37 HP, 5 Def. Now, both can whip out steel. Some are weighed down enough for bartre to double with his 33 mt. Fuck, that's overkill, he could do that with a hand axe. Let's be merciful and say he can't double them, which is a fair chance. Echidna has 23 mt, Bartre has 33. Echidna could ORKO, but it's as iffy as Bartre doubling. The problem with this, is that it kills her avoid by a whopping 12 points, bringing it down to 30. They'd have 39 hit on her, and they do 26-28 Mt. 2RKO. Bartre would have dropped them to 35, and is being 3RKOd. If they carry handies, her with steel is a point shy of doubling, so she has to retort with a handy, of which Bartre could have a a steel bow. 15x2 compared to Bartre's 26.
Echidna ORKOs all fighters with a Steel Blade, even if they're only weighed down -1 AS by Hand Axe (13 AS against 8-9 AS). This also drops their hit to 29. She also has a 55.1% chance to ORKO the warrior with a Killing Edge. If you're still worried about her being hit twice with 29 disp hit, she can switch to Steel Sword for 19 disp hit, but then she'll leave the enemy fighters about 5 HP short of an ORKO.

Grandjackal wrote:The boss leaves her with 9 HP, and she needs the wyrmslayer to do anything, as that's the only way she can actually damage his 25 Defense. 43 mt, that's 18x2 damage to his 39 HP, not quite an ORKO. Bartre can double this guy, and we got a brave axe. 32 mt, so that's 7x4 damage. 28 damage. Both are valuable weapons, so we might not wanna fight. On the other hand, this just means more crit chances for Bartre, but Echidna will have more Acc. Way I see it, just have Rutger or Deick do it.
Aine has 9 luk, so neither have listed crit rates. And Bartre actually can't quad him, since he only has 8 AS with Brave Axe against Aine's 5 AS. But this is Aine; if we have Dieck promoted he can just OHKO with Durandal.

Grandjackal wrote:Bartre in chapter 13 is capable of OHKOing basic cavs with the pole axe, and they'd have 40 displayed on him supportless (7 turns for a C with Fir, 20 for a B...). They 4RKO him with steel, 5RKO him with. Echidna however cannot just OHKO them. Killer and doubling or no, not happening. She would generally do the same on a paladin as he would. However, defensively she is being 3RKOd by cav steel at 46 displayed if she wants to meet his offense in any form without having to rely on crits, and paladins with their 30 mt 2RKO her, while they 3RKO Bartre. This is the bridge, and generally this is all the enemies there are outside of mercs and dracos.
Echidna doubles 9 AS (some Javelin) cavs with Halberd at base and 10 AS (other Javelin) cavs with 1 spd proc, so it's also an ORKO. She also doubles 11 and 12 AS pallies with Killer Axe and 13 AS pallies with 1 spd proc for also something like a 55.1% chance at a ORKO.

Grandjackal wrote:Bartre does better on dracos simply because of bows. With steel, he is packing 49 mt compared to Echidna with a killer axe having 24 mt. Bartre does 49 mt to drac 13 def and 40 HP, dropping them to 6 in one shot. Echidna does 12x2 damage, and has to be up close. A crit with a hit will not kill, meaning she needs to double crit. On top of this, she has to take a counter, and takes up a much smaller number of melee spaces, Bartre does not and takes only a more numerous ranged space.
12*4 = 48 > 40. I don't know what kind of math drugs you're on. And I suppose this means that Echidna is superior against WKs on enemy phase because she has a higher chance of ORKO.

Grandjackal wrote:Heroes and mercs have about 15-18 speed, meaning Echidna can't double them. Means they also double Bartre. She can use swords for a more accurate kiler chance, but she's still not doubling. Bartre can whip out steel and avoid the counter, though his crit chance is much smaller. OVerall though, I'd say not taking a counter while still chipping>gambling.
I like how you just clumped heroes and mercs into the "15-18" spd category when the mercs actually only have 15 spd and the hero has 16. Echidna's base 18 AS doubles the 14 AS mercs (Killing Edge also doesn't weigh Echidna down), and if she's gotten 1 spd proc she'll also double mercs if they have 15 AS.

Grandjackal wrote:You might now be saying "Well, let's give Echidna the body ring", and I'll say "well, let's give Bartre a speedwing". I can't name anyone off the top of my head who needs a speed wing aside from Lot, while the pegs would LOVE that body ring. If he's level 5 by the desert, Bartre's got a big durability lead, and can double brigands. Swordies will only do 13 damage to him, 4RKO, and again he can use his bow to avoid the counter. These bows do greater chip on wyverns, and are cheaper than having to use a wyrmslayer while having to eat their conters on the WTD. Echidna's weapon ranks are generally C B, while Bartre's is A D. Bartre could possibly have S axes now to use Armads on mamkutes. Having a bow on the desert and having the same move>swords. On top of this, he could help slay brigands down south while supporting Fir, to help her catch up n levels much quicker. Echidna could probably do that on her own, but doing the same while helping someone>doing it yourself. Fir and Bartre B support will act like he has WTA on them compared to Echidna. At level 5 actually, he has 2 more Str for 35 Mt with steel. Mages round here have 29 HP and 5 Def. BAM!
Brigand fighting and mamkute slaying are irrelevant here. So is Bartre's bow advantage against WKs because he can't solo 5 of them with just bows. And I'm pretty sure Echidna has 3 move to Bartre's 2 move if FE6's movement costs are anything like FE7's where warriors have a greater movement cost in desert for some reason. Finally, Bartre's ability to chip at mercs is also pretty irrelevant because it's kind of pointless to smack people around with bows when there are 5 enemies for you to deal with on enemy phase. And Echidna can still double most of the mercs (13-16 AS) with a spd proc, 3HKOing them with a Killing Edge.

As for Speedwings competition: Allen, Lot, Geese, Noah, Klein, and I can just keep going down the tier list. Oh, Echidna too, because +2 spd is always better than +2 con. Percival wants a Speedwings if we're going to Sacae.

Grandjackal wrote:Chapter 16, only things 13 AS doesn't double are paladins, mercs and snipers, a vast minority.
Ah ha. It also doubles neither Killer Axe nor Hand Axe fighters nor any of the bishops. 13 AS doesn't double 19/29 enemies originally on the map (not counting anyone who has a portrait). What's a "vast minority" again?

Grandjackal wrote:Mercs are posing 18 AS, no way in hell Echidna's doubling that anyways.
The Killing Edge merc may be, but the Steel Sword ones have 15-17 AS. If Bartre is entitled to a Speedwings, I'll give Echidna one here too, and she doubles the lower end ones with a Steel Sword and the higher end ones with 1 spd proc + Killing Edge.

Grandjackal wrote:Bartre can still OHKO mages, and with Fir support could probably do that with steel bows. Armors have 37 HP, 16 Def. Bartre would be packing 54 mt with a hammer. Clean OHKO, Fir seals the deal. His 54+1 mt ORKOs paladins. He can double the last enemies left, the fighters, and can obviously kill. Echidna's going solo, and usually needs to land 2 shots where sometimes Bartre would only need 1. Bartre with the speedwing lets him kill the only things he normally wouldn't double, the body ring doesn't help Echidna perform on Bartre's level with a wing.
Bartre with a Speedwings doubles a grand total of one more enemy on the map, a Steel Axe fighter. Sorry. I guess the Bolting mage with a Longbow too.

Grandjackal wrote:If he can muster level 8 by chapter 19, Bartre is easily among your best in Ilia. A support with Fir, axes and 14 AS to double steel pegs is mowing through them with iron. Falcos might pose a problem, until he whips out a steel bow for 55 mt which OHKOs their 10 def and 41 HP. Tragically, it's 1 mt shy of OHKOing Sigurney with her 12 Def and 44 HP. Echidna could smoke pegs with her steel axe, but she can't do that well on the falcos OR Sigurney.
Bartre fails terribly against mercs, though, while Echidna still has ORKO chances on them with a Killing Edge, and I'm assuming Speedwings for both of them since apparently Bartre needs it to function against PKs on enemy phase whereas Echidna only needs them to double a few more mercs. The sole enemy merc sample seems to be a low end one with only 15 AS which Echidna doubles with a spd proc, but I'm fairly certain they still go as high as 17 or 18 AS.

Grandjackal wrote:Sacae chapter 18, they pack 18 mt. Bartre has 11 Def at level 8, +1 from Fir and his own affinity. 6x2 damage to what would be his 52 HP. 5RKO. Echidna has 9 Def, 40 HP, not being doubled. 4RKO. On top of this, Bartre has a more accurate counter of bows compared to the hand axe or lollight brand. They have generally 35 HP, 7-8 Def. Due to neither doubling but Bartre packing far more might, Bartre wins. Hell, his crit with Fir is 21 without enemy luck factored. On top of this, we got Fir with a support for crit, which makes her a boss slayer since she should be promoted, something incredibly important in Sacae.
Echidna doubles higher end nomads with 2 spd procs and a Speedwings. She won't double at range unless you use the Light Brand (which, by the way, is more accurate than a Steel Bow). You could try to argue Brave Bow on Bartre, but it's considerably more difficult to get 2 ranks of bows than 2 ranks of another weapon when you have access to axes. On the defensive end, Echidna should have C Lalum by now, which makes the enemy 4RKO extremely borderline.

Grandjackal wrote:Chapter 21, I'll say Bartre and Echidna are 10. Bartre's 14 AS is not getting doubled. What makes Bartre scary compared to Echidna is he probably has access to killer bows by now. If he has brave bows, ORKO wyvern lords. Echidna would need a wyrmslayer to match this, which puts her out on the WTD. 47 avoid. Doesn't even drop wyvern lord hit below 70 displayed. +WTD, that's 80. Riders have generally 20 less hit, but their 40+1 mt to her 9 Def and 40 HP is a 2RKO to the point it does 31 damage. That's PAINFUL. She could go killers, but then her might would be 26 to their 19 Def and 58 HP. Double crit only does 48 damage.Doesn't even OHKO riders, with their 47 HP and 15 mt. She reduces their hit by 20, but that's still gonna be around 60-40 hit displayed. Bartre would be facing with his axes and A Fir 5 displayed from the lords, 30 from the riders, only a +10 to that if they caught him with bows. 54 HP, 11+1 Def 28 damage. Stilla 2RKO, but at least he can handle plenty other wyverns. Defensively he's better, but offensively Echidna wins simply because of wyrmslayers, since killer bows have their own fault. However, both kill their defensive playstyles with these weapons.
Notice how we gave the Speedwings to Bartre and got a unit that, instead of improving offensively, only improved defensively. If Bartre doesn't get the Speedwings, he's being ORKO'd by WLs.

I'm looking at the chapter 21 samples, and Echidna ORKOs enemy WKs with 1 crit.

Anyway I probably could have wasted more time pulling up numbers of "here's how many enemies Echidna doubles that Bartre doesn't," but it should be fairly obvious that Echidna's offensive leads in the later parts of the game are pretty astounding because even with a Speedwings, Bartre doesn't have enough AS to double anything beyond fighters and archers (and they have to be weighed down).

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3 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:55 pm

[quote="dondon151"]
Bartre should win on this chapter because bows are better 2-range weapons than Hand Axes, but those RKO figures hardly matter at all because at the rate you're advancing, you're not likely to actually face enough enemies that will KO either unit. [/qute]

It saves you a lot of headaches anyways.


Echidna ORKOs all fighters with a Steel Blade, even if they're only weighed down -1 AS by Hand Axe (13 AS against 8-9 AS). This also drops their hit to 29. She also has a 55.1% chance to ORKO the warrior with a Killing Edge. If you're still worried about her being hit twice with 29 disp hit, she can switch to Steel Sword for 19 disp hit, but then she'll leave the enemy fighters about 5 HP short of an ORKO.

Please don't let steel blades be buyable, please don't (chapter 9) FUCK!

Well, ya got me there.

Grandjackal wrote:
Aine has 9 luk, so neither have listed crit rates. And Bartre actually can't quad him, since he only has 8 AS with Brave Axe against Aine's 5 AS. But this is Aine; if we have Dieck promoted he can just OHKO with Durandal.

So we're in agreement.

Grandjackal wrote:
Echidna doubles 9 AS (some Javelin) cavs with Halberd at base and 10 AS (other Javelin) cavs with 1 spd proc, so it's also an ORKO. She also doubles 11 and 12 AS pallies with Killer Axe and 13 AS pallies with 1 spd proc for also something like a 55.1% chance at a ORKO.

Bartre with Fir at B has close to the same hit rates as Echidna would. Since Bartre just kills them in one hit, his chances are therefore greater.

This allows him such honor like killing the killer lance bastard in one shot. He can avoid a counter in this way.

He might not have enough to ORKO the paladin with the same rates due to killer crit. 39 and doubling>45.

Grandjackal wrote:
12*4 = 48 > 40. I don't know what kind of math drugs you're on. And I suppose this means that Echidna is superior against WKs on enemy phase because she has a higher chance of ORKO.

39 crit and needing to land both crits is about...27% chance displayed without factoring in acc on both shots. Bartre with a killer and Fir around only needs to land 1 shot with his 33+1 mt to their 15 def and 42 HP. 45% displayed. So no, not really. I could make Fir vanish, it would still be 35% displayed.


I like how you just clumped heroes and mercs into the "15-18" spd category when the mercs actually only have 15 spd and the hero has 16. Echidna's base 18 AS doubles the 14 AS mercs (Killing Edge also doesn't weigh Echidna down), and if she's gotten 1 spd proc she'll also double mercs if they have 15 AS.

You're checking chapter 15, right? My numbers say 16-18. Perhaps they can get lowshafted.


Brigand fighting and mamkute slaying are irrelevant here. So is Bartre's bow advantage against WKs because he can't solo 5 of them with just bows. And I'm pretty sure Echidna has 3 move to Bartre's 2 move if FE6's movement costs are anything like FE7's where warriors have a greater movement cost in desert for some reason. Finally, Bartre's ability to chip at mercs is also pretty irrelevant because it's kind of pointless to smack people around with bows when there are 5 enemies for you to deal with on enemy phase. And Echidna can still double most of the mercs (13-16 AS) with a spd proc, 3HKOing them with a Killing Edge.

Are you playing normal mode? 13 AS, you serious?

I'm pretty positive that heroes are penalized just as much as any other foot soldier not a mage.

Bows give him 1 extra range that doesn't suck compared to hand axe.

Why wouldn't chipping mercs be important, considering they're all up above the ledge on the way to the throne? Also, how does Echidna procing speed with her 18 AS going to 19 double 16 AS?

I suppose you can ignore mamkutes, but you underestimate Armads. 54 mt with 22 Str and +1 support is nothing to scoff at, because the wyverns are under slayer effect to it. 10+5+1 Def with his 48 HP and WTA? Even lords with their silver are only doing 13 damage to him. 49 HP and 15 def does not survive a crushing 77 mt. 1 turn=dead wyvern squad save the javelin bastard.


As for Speedwings competition: Allen, Lot, Geese, Noah, Klein, and I can just keep going down the tier list. Oh, Echidna too, because +2 spd is always better than +2 con. Percival wants a Speedwings if we're going to Sacae.

It's weird, because if Bartre's in play, tha Echidna doesn't exist, and vice versa. They can't technically take it from eachother.

Either way, I suppose this means Echidna's probably not getting it either. Allen and Percy? How do either compete?


Ah ha. It also doubles neither Killer Axe nor Hand Axe fighters nor any of the bishops. 13 AS doesn't double 19/29 enemies originally on the map (not counting anyone who has a portrait). What's a "vast minority" again?

Considering he can swipe a paladin off his mount, hammer armors, OHKO mages, this is leaving handy fighters, steel axers and mercs. If I can use a wing to improve offense on one enemy type like Echidna sorta is, I can do the same with Bartre.

I would bring up the fact that Bartre with Armads has a chance to OHKO Narshen with Armads, but I just ran the hit chances. At least with a killer bow, it's a 50-50 chance...


The Killing Edge merc may be, but the Steel Sword ones have 15-17 AS. If Bartre is entitled to a Speedwings, I'll give Echidna one here too, and she doubles the lower end ones with a Steel Sword and the higher end ones with 1 spd proc + Killing Edge.

Yes, she needs a killing edge even after a spwwd wing. Bartre after a speed wing only needs basic weapons. Echidna has more than one problem, and the fact you're giving her a speedwing tells me yur doin' it wrong.


Bartre with a Speedwings doubles a grand total of one more enemy on the map, a Steel Axe fighter. Sorry. I guess the Bolting mage with a Longbow too.

You mean like Echidna is? Who STILL needs a killer edge to pull it off after the fact?


Bartre fails terribly against mercs, though, while Echidna still has ORKO chances on them with a Killing Edge, and I'm assuming Speedwings for both of them since apparently Bartre needs it to function against PKs on enemy phase whereas Echidna only needs them to double a few more mercs. The sole enemy merc sample seems to be a low end one with only 15 AS which Echidna doubles with a spd proc, but I'm fairly certain they still go as high as 17 or 18 AS.

Bartre gets the wing and thus functions, and his bows ensure that he does better on a more dangerous enemy that he need not a wing for, the Falcoknight. I'm more worried about those bastards, and Bartre's capable of one shotting them. No killer required. Far better than just whining about mercs, just the wing by accident you gave him earlier still has effects on his performance even now.


Echidna doubles higher end nomads with 2 spd procs and a Speedwings. She won't double at range unless you use the Light Brand (which, by the way, is more accurate than a Steel Bow). You could try to argue Brave Bow on Bartre, but it's considerably more difficult to get 2 ranks of bows than 2 ranks of another weapon when you have access to axes. On the defensive end, Echidna should have C Lalum by now, which makes the enemy 4RKO extremely borderline.

Good thing I didn't, and good thing I partnered Bartre up with someone who can also use the light brand rather than someone I have to defend. That C doesn't help Lalum survive 2 rounds until level 17. This also allows mah Elphin to go about dancing rather than following Echidna around with Lalum. In fact, Elphin could help square out the Etrurians.

Steel bow might not be more accurate, but it also only needs to land 1 shot. Light brand with 2 shots would do 20 damage. Most nomads have 7 Def, 35 HP. Bartre at this point would have 34+1 mt with steel. 28 damage. Even without a wing where Echidna got one, Bartre is superior.


Notice how we gave the Speedwings to Bartre and got a unit that, instead of improving offensively, only improved defensively. If Bartre doesn't get the Speedwings, he's being ORKO'd by WLs.

In exchange, I don't need to depend on a wyrmslayer to pull off a chance to kill them, as Barte could just pull out the Armads 54 mt+25 Str+ 1 from support=80 mt. Wyvern Lords have 58 HP, 19 Def. Still crushing. Even more, 11+5+1 Def, 23 damage from their 40 mt is 23 damage, a 3RKO that would leave him with about 31 HP. Echidna couldn't do that with a double crit of killer axes, meaning she needs a wyrmslayer or Durandal, both of which she needs 2 uses to her 1. her 40 HP and 9 Def is not surviving 3 rounds of that, and is in fact suffering 31 damage. Thanks to WTD, she is facing about 70 hit. I would factor in Lalum support, but unless we wall in and have Echidna leashed around her, the wyvern lord would probably go after Lalum and slay her. Fir and Bartre don't have such a problem. Bartre with hsi support and axes is essentially 20 less displayed, which is far better gambles. He doesn't even need to use armads, a killer bow crit and hte bastard's toast. He has more than 1 answer, and 1 of those answers doesn't screw him over on a royal level.

Don't try Echidna with Armads either. 15 Str+54 Mt is 69. 19 def, 50 to the lord's 59 HP. Durandal by nature fails in this aspect as well for her, and on an even worse level. Armads also weighs her down bad enough to negate WTA.


I'm looking at the chapter 21 samples, and Echidna ORKOs enemy WKs with 1 crit.

Juuuust barely. If they proc a def, she fails in this aspect. Both could have Armads by now, but Bartre puts it to better use thanks to Lords.


Anyway I probably could have wasted more time pulling up numbers of "here's how many enemies Echidna doubles that Bartre doesn't," but it should be fairly obvious that Echidna's offensive leads in the later parts of the game are pretty astounding because even with a Speedwings, Bartre doesn't have enough AS to double anything beyond fighters and archers (and they have to be weighed down).

You overestimate doubling, as great strength can possibly outdo it. I should have mentioned the idea of "This is how long Bartre can use silver", but whatev.

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4 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:42 am

Grandjackal wrote:39 crit and needing to land both crits is about...27% chance displayed without factoring in acc on both shots. Bartre with a killer and Fir around only needs to land 1 shot with his 33+1 mt to their 15 def and 42 HP. 45% displayed. So no, not really. I could make Fir vanish, it would still be 35% displayed.
I went over the math yesterday with you over MSN, and you know by now that Echidna only needs to crit once in 2 shots in a round of combat. Which is like ~55%.

Grandjackal wrote:You're checking chapter 15, right? My numbers say 16-18. Perhaps they can get lowshafted.
The hero will probably go higher, but the mercs will still be doubled by Echidna. Also, you can give her a Speedwings.

Grandjackal wrote:I'm pretty positive that heroes are penalized just as much as any other foot soldier not a mage.
Unpromoted Wade has 1 move in the desert, which means that 1 tile of desert has a movement cost of 3 for fighters/warriors instead of 2 for other foot units.

Grandjackal wrote:Why wouldn't chipping mercs be important, considering they're all up above the ledge on the way to the throne? Also, how does Echidna procing speed with her 18 AS going to 19 double 16 AS?
Because most mercs are 13-15 AS? Also Speedwings?

Grandjackal wrote:I suppose you can ignore mamkutes, but you underestimate Armads. 54 mt with 22 Str and +1 support is nothing to scoff at, because the wyverns are under slayer effect to it. 10+5+1 Def with his 48 HP and WTA? Even lords with their silver are only doing 13 damage to him. 49 HP and 15 def does not survive a crushing 77 mt. 1 turn=dead wyvern squad save the javelin bastard.
Go ahead and use up 4 of your Armads when Echidna can do about the same with a Killer Axe. You don't need to kill them all in 1 turn.

Grandjackal wrote:Either way, I suppose this means Echidna's probably not getting it either. Allen and Percy? How do either compete?
I suppose you forgot that Allen - Dieck comparison where promoted Allen would not have enough AS to double when being weighed down by something like a Hand Axe? Percival has 20 base spd and needs 22-23 to double nomads and NTs in Sacae.

Anyway, Echidna without a Speedwings still doubles everything except for most mercs (she still gets some of them). She'll have to switch to weaker weapons for slighly slower enemies, however. On the other hand, Bartre without a Speedwings can't double anything but knights and becomes a defensive failure later in the game.

Grandjackal wrote:
Considering he can swipe a paladin off his mount, hammer armors, OHKO mages, this is leaving handy fighters, steel axers and mercs. If I can use a wing to improve offense on one enemy type like Echidna sorta is, I can do the same with Bartre.
You're giving Bartre too much credit. Bartre already doubles armors, and I included that in the original figure. There is 1 paladin on the map. There are 6 mages on the map, which Bartre does not actually OHKO. --/6 Bartre with +1 atk from supports has 34 atk with Steel Bow. That is just an OHKO on the lowest end mages (30 HP/4 def), but you have 31 HP/5 def, 32 HP/4 def, etc. that aren't OHKO'd. But Bartre will only be doing this on player phase, because on enemy phase he needs to have a Hand Axe to do anything, otherwise the mages will just attack him from 2-range if he has an axe and 1-range if he has a bow. Hand axe lowers his atk to 32, which misses the OHKO on all mages. And then, there are still the snipers, mercs, non Steel Axe fighters, and mercs that Bartre can't double.

Grandjackal wrote:Yes, she needs a killing edge even after a spwwd wing. Bartre after a speed wing only needs basic weapons. Echidna has more than one problem, and the fact you're giving her a speedwing tells me yur doin' it wrong.
These are just mercs, who are one of the more durable enemy types in this game. I could also give Echidna a Silver Sword, who with 27.8 atk at --/7, actually is only 2 HP away from ORKOing a sample 40 HP/9 def merc from 17I. If Echidna has proc'd str again, or if the merc is lower end on HP or def, that's a ORKO without killers. Now obviously in Ilia killers are more available than silvers, which is why I neglected to do this comparison, but remember that as long as Echidna doubles, she sees twice the benefit from the extra MT from silvers.

It's not just mercs, either. Take FKs in Ilia. The sample I'm looking at has 15 AS. Echidna with Silver Axe has 29.8 + 1 atk at --/7, which ORKOs 41 HP/10 def. The problem is that Echidna without Speedwings has 16.8 AS whereas Echidna with Speedwings has 18.8 AS, which doubles. If you're dubious about rounding .8 up, giving her another level pretty much seals the deal, and --/8 is reasonable by chapter 17I too.

I've gotta get to class.

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5 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:03 pm

To clarify my point, I wish for Bartre to at least be upper mid in this argument. Even without the wing, he's easily capable of one shotting quite a few people, pretty good in Sacae, and being your strongest archer with a killer bow that will one hit kill on the crit for the rest of the game to offset his problems versus the likes of heroes and wyvern lords.

Honestly, the same tier as people like OJ and Tate with this sort of performance when he's essentially free?

dondon151 wrote:
I went over the math yesterday with you over MSN, and you know by now that Echidna only needs to crit once in 2 shots in a round of combat. Which is like ~55%.

Well she DOES have to land the second attack either way...;;>>

Grandjackal wrote:
The hero will probably go higher, but the mercs will still be doubled by Echidna. Also, you can give her a Speedwings.

Wingless Bartre can just use bows for a potential 31 mt. Even if they had 11 defense, that's still a solid 20 damage. I'm pretty sure someone's gonna be able to avoid a counter with that. Unlike Echidna who might potentially have to take a counter. She's not exactly a dodge tank on swordies either.

Grandjackal wrote:
Unpromoted Wade has 1 move in the desert, which means that 1 tile of desert has a movement cost of 3 for fighters/warriors instead of 2 for other foot units.

Well fuck, that's stupid. Oh well, I suppose that's because of axes and bows...

Grandjackal wrote:\
Because most mercs are 13-15 AS? Also Speedwings?

Checking the desert numbers, this is a case of if Echidna's screwed in speed, or if the mercs procced speed so it's not a definite. As for giving her a wing, you seem to be claiming she has similar problems to what Bartre does.

Grandjackal wrote:
Go ahead and use up 4 of your Armads when Echidna can do about the same with a Killer Axe. You don't need to kill them all in 1 turn.

Why not? Saves me a hell of a lot of time and effort, requires no luck (lessee you bastards dodge 116+10 hit with your WTD), and it's not like You need full uses for endgame. Can even help avoid a counter form them.

You said about 55% of pulling off a kill? Very well then. This, as you said on IM, takes botha single crit and a shot. This is 2 uses of a 20 use weapon. This means 10 dead wyverns. BUT, it only happens about 55% of the time. So about half the time, this doesn't happen. So only half of that actually lands kills. Therefore, every killer axe set is an aproximation of 5-6 dead wyverns. Armads is a potential 20 dead wyverns, and of course not all situations call for Armads. Then factor in fighting 4 wyverns. With Echidna, that's 2-3 dead, with Bartre it's all 4 dead. Why rely on luck and eating through a semi-expensive weapon to do what Bartre can do essentially for the use of a hammerne? The more I can utilize a great weapon, the better.

Grandjackal wrote:
I suppose you forgot that Allen - Dieck comparison where promoted Allen would not have enough AS to double when being weighed down by something like a Hand Axe? Percival has 20 base spd and needs 22-23 to double nomads and NTs in Sacae.

You get one wing on the Bartre/Echidna route, you get another in the desert. Bartre makes use of his wing sooner (since we don't see a flood of mercs until the desert), and the second might go to Percival. Both have a chance at 2 wings, but Bartre getting an immediate boost with long term effects (Ilia, Bern) is much mroe profound than just needing it to double mercs, of which she still needs killer weapons on top of it. Bartre has a better chance at the first than Echidna by this nature, and the second one might go to Percy who will be outperofming the hell out of Echidna.


Anyway, Echidna without a Speedwings still doubles everything except for most mercs (she still gets some of them). She'll have to switch to weaker weapons for slighly slower enemies, however. On the other hand, Bartre without a Speedwings can't double anything but knights and becomes a defensive failure later in the game.

Echidna gets killers, Bartre gets slayers. Pole axe OHKOs cavs, so doubling is irrelevent. Hammer OHKOs armors, doubling is irrelevent. He has Armads for wyverns, which OHKO, so doubling is irrelevent. Anything he can't double, he has steel bows for intense chip damage on the level of Klein with Silver (14 mt + 16 Str=30, 1 less mt than Bartre's 22 Str and 9 mt steel) to better help someone avoid a counter. A lot of these things have something in common, in that he has an easy time avoiding counters. He already beats Echidna defensively, the fact he has an easy time avoiding counters while still being offensively useful should speak well of him.

In fact, another factor I forgot. A Axes, instant access to silver. Echidna's a rank low. What's my point? Well, these suckers are in fact 15 mt. Bartre's Str base is 22. Fir support gives him 1. Pegs in Ilia have 6 Def, 32 HP. 15 mt+ 22 Str+ 1 support+ 1 WTA=39-6=33.

Gufaw! Guess he don't need a speedwing for Ilia! They're about as expensive as killer axes of which Echidna's been using, and Echidna for what she needs them for needs to land 2 shots to Bartre's 1 for here. Considering for later in Bern on wyvern lords he could just use Armads or avoid a counter with bows of which also goes with the heroes in chapter 22 (of which by 21 he has to have rank for killers), I'm starting to notice who's cheaper...You might say that's not necessarily important, but it does spread the wealth among my army. The rest of them can have killers and what have you, as Bartre's just using up 1 of something for every 2 Echidna needs. In fact, some of the weapons he cares for come for free. Avoiding counters with this playstyle means I have to heal Bartre far less, meaning the rest of my army can stay alive. Hell, it could make recruiting Hue at full price a bit easier to swallow, and that guy has the potential to be great if it weren't for his insane asking price.


You're giving Bartre too much credit. Bartre already doubles armors, and I included that in the original figure. There is 1 paladin on the map. There are 6 mages on the map, which Bartre does not actually OHKO. --/6 Bartre with +1 atk from supports has 34 atk with Steel Bow. That is just an OHKO on the lowest end mages (30 HP/4 def), but you have 31 HP/5 def, 32 HP/4 def, etc. that aren't OHKO'd. But Bartre will only be doing this on player phase, because on enemy phase he needs to have a Hand Axe to do anything, otherwise the mages will just attack him from 2-range if he has an axe and 1-range if he has a bow. Hand axe lowers his atk to 32, which misses the OHKO on all mages. And then, there are still the snipers, mercs, non Steel Axe fighters, and mercs that Bartre can't double.

This is why people don't find mages so frightening, because they are rarely clustered together. Why use a steel bow when you can axe them? If they're stronger than that, you arent gonna lose much if you crush their skull with an axe. This lets him avoid a counter, along with being able to counter whatever else is around. The point being that it's easier to keep Bartre alive because of this.

These other people require killers for Echidna. She can potentially kill, but it's not 100%, you will have others nearby just in case. Bartre might not kill, but he also doesn't have a take a counter if he fails to crit. He does pretty massive chip damage (mercs have 40 HP, 9 Def. Bartre by now probably got a strength level and B Fir. 23+1+9=33, he's doing 24 damage. 16 by now should not be that hard to finish off). So two people healthy for one kill, or having to rely on luck for killing in exchange for taking a hit and needing healing? It's a close call in that regard.

Grandjackal wrote:
These are just mercs, who are one of the more durable enemy types in this game. I could also give Echidna a Silver Sword, who with 27.8 atk at --/7, actually is only 2 HP away from ORKOing a sample 40 HP/9 def merc from 17I. If Echidna has proc'd str again, or if the merc is lower end on HP or def, that's a ORKO without killers. Now obviously in Ilia killers are more available than silvers, which is why I neglected to do this comparison, but remember that as long as Echidna doubles, she sees twice the benefit from the extra MT from silvers.

Flaw in your argument is silver swords. A rank weapons, she has C swords. Even with doubling, that's not gonna be happening any time soon.

Funny you mention that, in Ilia before chapter 18, silvers happen to be buyable. Echidna's been needing killers since she existed, so that's 2 chapters of killer weapons (including killer swords) prior to silver card. 1000-1300 in gold per weapon, and Bartre could have been using basic weapons. Hell, we get the pole-axe and silver for free (we got a free one in chapter Cool. So these silver axes of which Bartre would need in Ilia would be 500, and he only needs 1 shot for these while Echidna needed about 2 killer uses to kill what she went after.

Bartre sure is cheap for a dude who looks like Wario.


It's not just mercs, either. Take FKs in Ilia. The sample I'm looking at has 15 AS. Echidna with Silver Axe has 29.8 + 1 atk at --/7, which ORKOs 41 HP/10 def. The problem is that Echidna without Speedwings has 16.8 AS whereas Echidna with Speedwings has 18.8 AS, which doubles. If you're dubious about rounding .8 up, giving her another level pretty much seals the deal, and --/8 is reasonable by chapter 17I too.

Steel/Killer=9x3=27 mt. Bartre's 23 Str+1 from Fir+27=51 mt. Falcos have 41 HP, 10 Def.

Bartre just keeps looking to be cheaper and cheaper. Doesn't even need a killer.

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6 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:47 pm

Grandjackal wrote:Checking the desert numbers, this is a case of if Echidna's screwed in speed, or if the mercs procced speed so it's not a definite. As for giving her a wing, you seem to be claiming she has similar problems to what Bartre does.
What do you mean "if the mercs proc'd speed" when I gave you the minimum and maximum ranges of merc AS on this map? And I am in no way suggesting that Echidna has similar problems to Bartre; giving her a Speedwings moves her level of offense from good to overwhelming while giving Bartre a Speedwings pretty much serves only to not get his ass handed to him by fast enemies. Oh, and I guess he now doubles Steel Axe fighters and Steel Bow archers, which everyone else already doubled.

Grandjackal wrote:Why not? Saves me a hell of a lot of time and effort, requires no luck (lessee you bastards dodge 116+10 hit with your WTD), and it's not like You need full uses for endgame. Can even help avoid a counter form them.
You don't even NEED to go up and meet the WKs. In fact, the fastest way to complete this map is to skip over the cliffs entirely. The only reason why you need to kill those WKs by turn 5 or 6 is so that your theif can go up and get the Silver Card without getting raped.

Grandjackal wrote:You said about 55% of pulling off a kill? Very well then. This, as you said on IM, takes botha single crit and a shot. This is 2 uses of a 20 use weapon. This means 10 dead wyverns. BUT, it only happens about 55% of the time. So about half the time, this doesn't happen. So only half of that actually lands kills. Therefore, every killer axe set is an aproximation of 5-6 dead wyverns. Armads is a potential 20 dead wyverns, and of course not all situations call for Armads. Then factor in fighting 4 wyverns. With Echidna, that's 2-3 dead, with Bartre it's all 4 dead. Why rely on luck and eating through a semi-expensive weapon to do what Bartre can do essentially for the use of a hammerne? The more I can utilize a great weapon, the better.
I'm not going to bother pointing out how ludicrous it is that the Killer Axe is "too expensive" and the Armads is "essentially free" because it has sole claim to the Hammerne. I'll let you figure this out yourself.

Oh, and Echidna also OHKOs 51 HP/17 def WLs with Armads.

Grandjackal wrote:You get one wing on the Bartre/Echidna route, you get another in the desert. Bartre makes use of his wing sooner (since we don't see a flood of mercs until the desert), and the second might go to Percival. Both have a chance at 2 wings, but Bartre getting an immediate boost with long term effects (Ilia, Bern) is much mroe profound than just needing it to double mercs, of which she still needs killer weapons on top of it. Bartre has a better chance at the first than Echidna by this nature, and the second one might go to Percy who will be outperofming the hell out of Echidna.
Holy fuck, do you not read my posts or something.

List of enemies that Echidna does better against with a Speedwings:
Mercenaries
Heroes
Falcoknights
Druids
Sages
Snipers
Pirates (Poison Axe)
Nomads
Wyvern Lords (when not using Armads/Durandal)

List of enemies that Bartre does better against with a Speedwings:
Archers (Steel Bow)
Fighters (Steel Axe)

HMM I wonder what is the difference here.

Echidna gets killers, Bartre gets slayers. Pole axe OHKOs cavs, so doubling is irrelevent. Hammer OHKOs armors, doubling is irrelevent. He has Armads for wyverns, which OHKO, so doubling is irrelevent. Anything he can't double, he has steel bows for intense chip damage on the level of Klein with Silver (14 mt + 16 Str=30, 1 less mt than Bartre's 22 Str and 9 mt steel) to better help someone avoid a counter. A lot of these things have something in common, in that he has an easy time avoiding counters. He already beats Echidna defensively, the fact he has an easy time avoiding counters while still being offensively useful should speak well of him.
Guess what? Echidna gets the same effective weapons that Bartre gets, plus Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer! The only enemy type that Echidna clearly loses to Bartre against is paladins (she can't double them with Halberd even after Speedwings).

Since when was chip damage better than just plain owning everything in sight?

Grandjackal wrote:Statements about cost
No one cares about money in this game. And no, Hugh does not have potential.

Grandjackal wrote:This is why people don't find mages so frightening, because they are rarely clustered together. Why use a steel bow when you can axe them? If they're stronger than that, you arent gonna lose much if you crush their skull with an axe. This lets him avoid a counter, along with being able to counter whatever else is around. The point being that it's easier to keep Bartre alive because of this.
How does Bartre avoid a counter when he can't OHKO mages on enemy phase and can't OHKO ~67% of the mages on the map on player phase? How is this better than Echidna ORKOing every mage regardless of phase?

Grandjackal wrote:These other people require killers for Echidna. She can potentially kill, but it's not 100%, you will have others nearby just in case. Bartre might not kill, but he also doesn't have a take a counter if he fails to crit. He does pretty massive chip damage (mercs have 40 HP, 9 Def. Bartre by now probably got a strength level and B Fir. 23+1+9=33, he's doing 24 damage. 16 by now should not be that hard to finish off). So two people healthy for one kill, or having to rely on luck for killing in exchange for taking a hit and needing healing? It's a close call in that regard.
These killers are for mercs only. Echidna cleanly ORKOs most other enemy types without needing crits from killers, or silvers.

Grandjackal wrote:Flaw in your argument is silver swords. A rank weapons, she has C swords. Even with doubling, that's not gonna be happening any time soon.
Flaw in your argument is that Echidna has 8 chapters to build 2 weapon ranks using her best weapon choice.

Grandjackal wrote:Funny you mention that, in Ilia before chapter 18, silvers happen to be buyable.
I'm sure that you're talking about killers before chapter 18 because silvers aren't buyable until 20I, but whatever the case, money is not an issue. Being "cheap" has literally no merit.

Grandjackal wrote:Steel/Killer=9x3=27 mt. Bartre's 23 Str+1 from Fir+27=51 mt. Falcos have 41 HP, 10 Def.

Bartre just keeps looking to be cheaper and cheaper. Doesn't even need a killer.
Good luck using that Steel Bow on enemy phase!

I'm sorry that I had to resort to smash-esque typesetting, but holy fuck you don't read. You can either keep claiming that chip damage is superior to good/guaranteed chance of ORKO against most enemy types in the game, or you can accept that Echidna crushes Bartre in offense. If you want Bartre in upper mid, why are you comparing him to Echidna?

If slow, heavy hitting axe users were any good, Wade and Garret would be a lot higher than they are right now. In fact, Wade post-promotion is Bartre with better supports, and Garret is Bartre with a higher chance of killing enemies.

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7 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:50 am

Maybe I'm missing something (there's no way I'm reading all that tl;dr), but it seems pretty obvious to me that Echidna's better.

Echidna's 8 AS >>> Bartre's 9 atk. In many cases Echidna can manage a 1RKO whereas Bartre cannot manage a 1HKO.

Second, Echidna has a huge advantage in terms of hit rates. While the disparity is only 8 points, it also grows slightly due to her growth advantage, then Echidna has 2 weapon types to Bartre's 1. Well technically he can use bows, but that's always WTN. If that weren't enough, Echidna's affinity gives hit whereas Bartre's doesn't. Once that's all taken into account, the 2RN system amplifies Echidna's advantage even more.

Durability-wise, Bartre has a comfortable 15 hp, but then Echidna has an 8 avo lead, 23 whenever she gets WTA and he doesn't. Then while he has a small def lead, she has a large res lead to compensate.

Unless Bartre's Fir support completely changes the momentum of the comparison, I don't see him being better.

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8 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:34 am

Vykan12 wrote:If that weren't enough, Echidna's affinity gives hit whereas Bartre's doesn't.
Despite this, both only get half Hit from their partners (Fir gives Hit. Lalum doesn't). Echidna might get Gonzales eventually, but even that is just half.

Durability-wise, Bartre has a comfortable 15 hp, but then Echidna has an 8 avo lead, 23 whenever she gets WTA and he doesn't.
WTA is only 10 in this game.

Of course, these are just minor nitpicks. I'm definitely on the side of Echidna > Bartre. I could possibly see Bartre going up, though.

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9 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:07 am

If Bartre goes up, then Wade definitely needs to go up. Unless you subscribe to negative utility and all that.

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10 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:02 pm

And if Ward gos up, Lot goes up.

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11 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:38 pm

Ok, perhaps I went a bit overboard on the comparison by trying to have him compare to Echidna. However, the reason I did it is because everyone's s willing to jump on the "he's worse, so punish him twice for denying a better character" deal. I just wanted to show he's not THAT much worse. He is worse, but I don't think it's by enough to warrent a harsh judgement on him. Like, I do feel he is upper mid.

As for Ward? Well, it really depends. Thanks to supports, he can at least come close to comparing to Bartre offensively, though defense might be a tad off. Post promotion, if chapter 16 is the time everyone would find promoting Ward reasonable then yeah, he's perfectly capable of a jump himself. He might not have the bow rank, but...

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Despite this, both only get half Hit from their partners (Fir gives Hit. Lalum doesn't). Echidna might get Gonzales eventually, but even that is just half.

Bartre's packing thunder, he cuts it in half. The deal I was thinking was A. Fir is easier to justify a support than Lalum due to unit function, and B. Fir gives Bartre the ability to basically neutralize WTD when comparing to a neutral Echidna. Sure, he's lacking swords and you'd be stupid to attack up close in that sense, but his bows DO help him avoid the counter. Just trading him out from there isn't hard (he chips, someone moves in between the enemy and Bartre, trades Bartre out, attacks the chipped enemy. If anyone is a swordie, Fir helps watch his back this way, so he's not as bad durably, despite being doubled, since he's got an easier time avoiding counters than Echidna who basically has to use melee weapons to pull this off, and her crits with said weapons don't necessarily avoid a counter all the time).


WTA is only 10 in this game.

Of course, these are just minor nitpicks. I'm definitely on the side of Echidna > Bartre. I could possibly see Bartre going up, though.

Just to mention, Bartre's bowss are a far more effective way to avoid counters than lolLight Brand and Hand Axe. However, her ability to avoid counters from possible crit kills on the first strike I feel are what put Echidna above Bartre overall. Doubling is nice, but only if it's effective. Due to her way of avoiding counters on the player phase also ensures someone is dead, that's a double whammy compared to Bartre's Steel bow.

But I'm glad someone agrees. It would be hard to put him above perhaps some others (Cecilia due to horse+staffs+support with friggin Percival, kinda hard to get over that hump), but bottom of upper mid at the least sound fair?

EDIT: Also BBlader, why would Lot go up? In this agument, Echidna isn't going to top just for being better than Bartre, who people think could rise. Why should then Lot rise just for being better than Ward?

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12 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:08 pm

why shouldn't he? Ward is going up for being comprable to Bartre. Lot just has to promote, which doesn't take long after Bartre joins, to pwn his face offensively and defensively. Offensively because Lot actually doubles SOME things with his 15 AS and Bartre doesn't with his lmao 10 AS, defensively because Lot has supports to give him existing avo and better concrete def.

Btw, I fail to see how 12 AS [with a fucking speedwing, IF he gets it] is upper mid at all.

Btw, as far as enemy phase exposure goes Bartre is pretty much limited to Iron Axe. Steel makes his hit suck, and an often overlooked point is that Killer Axes are not buyable on B Route. They don't become buyable again until 17-18 depending on route and Bartre gets doubled by everything in Sacae and has fuckballs hit, so I don't think Bartre even has that much utility at any point in the game. He can Killer Bow shit. Even that isn't great since he only gets one shot at doing it per one player phase, and he's not on a horse so he won't get as many targets per turn. The only place Bartre can go is DOWN.

Like, Tate joins early enough to have a good deal of flying utility [and the only place I ever find Thany that useful is C11A] and absolutely kills Thany in combat. Thany can early promo? Well, Tate can too.

10/3 Thany:
28 HP, 9 str, 21 AS, 9 def

10/1 Tate:
29 HP, 12 str, 18 AS, 10 def

Tate's +1 Con and the fact that they both get weighed down by almost everything anyway makes Thany's AS win almost neligable. Factoring in supports just makes it worse for Thany as Tate has Klein to pad her durability notably, which also more than cancels out Thany's avo win. Growths are ugly too: Oh no, Tate loses spd by 5 when she has plenty of speed, boohoo.

There shouldn't be a tier gap between them when Tate is arguably superior, and crossing Lower Mid means Bartre is worse than her, so he goes down.

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13 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:15 pm

bblader1 wrote:why shouldn't he? Ward is going up for being comprable to Bartre. Lot just has to promote, which doesn't take long after Bartre joins, to pwn his face offensively and defensively. Offensively because Lot actually doubles SOME things with his 15 AS and Bartre doesn't with his lmao 10 AS, defensively because Lot has supports to give him existing avo and better concrete def.

Btw, I fail to see how 12 AS [with a fucking speedwing, IF he gets it] is upper mid at all.

Ward and Bartre are far more capable of OHKOing what they wish to kill for a myriad of reasons.

1. Str, supports and slayer weapons. I don't care what you say, a OHKO is a OHKO. This also cuts into how many counters either takes. News flash. 20/1 Ward and Lot, the difference in avoid is a mere 3. Bartre, only 1. Bartre has less of an excuse though, due to only 1 support. This comes into question in the idea that if Ward can OHKO something that doubles him, he can have generally the same avoid chance as Lot, and the OHKO avoids the double.

2. Better crit. Ward's fire to Lot's Anima. Even when he starts doubling, he would generally only have the same chance ot landing a crit as Ward. Example, 20/1, Ward with an AB with Deick and Thany, that's 25+his 7, a 32 displayed. Lot has the same amount of crit (less hit I should add, thanks to worse luck and affinity not giving acc) with AB Deick and Thany or Ward is 15+7, 22. Basically 10 more. With killers, Ward has 52, Lot has 42. Lot's chances are 10 less, but due to doubling has about a 61% chance. It's better, but 9% difference? Then factor in crit chance. Lot has about 15+4-5 Str, Ward has 20+4-5. Lot is a bit better than Echidna, but Ward is Bartre on steroids. What do I mean?

Ward with silver has 39 mt with just a +4. Pegasi in Ilia have 32 HP and 6 Def. OHKO. Lot would only have 34 under best situation of +5. Hell, Ward could do it with just +2. Ward has a better chance of taking down Falcos with better crit, and does more damage with their iron bows (highly doubt either are gonna have D bows within the course of 2 chapters).

Lott probably is better in Sacae though...More defense (he might not even TAKE damage in Sacae's nomad front), though Ward has more Acc and hits harder, since Lot's not doubling anything ever. Ward with Deick Lott has 11+2 def, 5x2 damage to his 49 HP, so he's STILL pretty damn hard to kill himself.

Bern? Ward's better at chipping wyvern lords and heroes with bows, Lott's better on the sheer multitude of bullet sponges.

They seem a bit closer than you think, but I HATE comparing people who are eachother's best partner...

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14 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:42 pm

1. Str, supports and slayer weapons. I don't care what you say, a OHKO is a OHKO.

Yeah, let's make Bartre/Ward's sucky hit even more sucky. w1n? He still has to eat a counter if he misses, you know. Furthermore Halberd's aren't buyable and I question Hammers one shotting armors and they always run the chance of missing WTA or no. Oh, and Lot has such a good HP/Def/avo combo he doesn't give a rat's ass about taking a counter. Like, 20/1 Lot w/A Dick/B Ward has 51 HP/18def/52 avo+WTA.

At least Lot isn't, you know, TOTALLY screwed if he misses the first attack.

News flash. 20/1 Ward and Lot, the difference in avoid is a mere 3. Bartre, only 1.

Um. When I said Lot's avo was good I was comparing him to Bartre. Furthermore the AS lead equates to Lot not getting doubled, and he still has better concrete durability.

Ward with silver has 39 mt with just a +4. Pegasi in Ilia have 32 HP and 6 Def. OHKO. Lot would only have 34 under best situation of +5. Hell, Ward could do it with just +2. Ward has a better chance of taking down Falcos with better crit, and does more damage with their iron bows (highly doubt either are gonna have D bows within the course of 2 chapters).

Pegasi in Ilia also have shit AS, so Lot doubles easy. What's the worst that happens, oh noes he has to take a weakling peg tap to his massive HP/Def combo?


Bern? Ward's better at chipping wyvern lords and heroes with bows

Heroes wtf no. Ward gets doubled right back on the enemy phase if he tries that and the Heor hasn't died yet.

And 10 AS/locked to Iron Axe for melee during the timeframe he's actually supposed to be "better" than your other guys still isn't Upper Mid tier. And it's never going to be.

Bartre does nothing productive except kill C13 cavs at 63 displayed, IF he has the WTA. Swords fuck him over hard. This is not upper mid tier, the end.

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15 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:52 pm

bblader1 wrote:
Yeah, let's make Bartre/Ward's sucky hit even more sucky. w1n? He still has to eat a counter if he misses, you know. Furthermore Halberd's aren't buyable and I question Hammers one shotting armors and they always run the chance of missing WTA or no. Oh, and Lot has such a good HP/Def/avo combo he doesn't give a rat's ass about taking a counter. Like, 20/1 Lot w/A Dick/B Ward has 51 HP/18def/52 avo+WTA.

Chapter 16 armors have 37 HP, 16 Def. Bartre with a hammer is packing 52 Mt. WTA alone destroys the armor, B Fir seals the deal.

But let's review.

Ward level 16
25+25 hit, 55 hit with pole axe, +10 from WTA. 115 hit. Best avoid chapter 13 cavs have (basically killer ones who aren't weighed down) have 31 hit. Oh my, 84 hit displayed.

Bartre
36+10 from Fir+55+10 from WTA=111.

Lott level 16
23+15 from supports +55 +10 from WTA=91 hit. 60 displayed.

I fear not, as my hit is actually reliable!


At least Lot isn't, you know, TOTALLY screwed if he misses the first attack.

Granted he hits...


Um. When I said Lot's avo was good I was comparing him to Bartre. Furthermore the AS lead equates to Lot not getting doubled, and he still has better concrete durability.

Bartre B Fir-34+10

Lot level 16-27+25.

52 vs 44. Wow, 8 avoid, I'm so impressed.


Pegasi in Ilia also have shit AS, so Lot doubles easy. What's the worst that happens, oh noes he has to take a weakling peg tap to his massive HP/Def combo?

Ward needs to only land one shot, and eliminates the entire point of doubling. Because he kills in one shot. 20 silver ae uses=20 dead pegs for Ward, only 10 for Lott.


Heroes wtf no. Ward gets doubled right back on the enemy phase if he tries that and the Heor hasn't died yet.

Lott's not doubling them, facing WTD, and is doubled by braves, along with shitty hit. Both would rather use bows, Ward does mroe damage and has mroe crit. Winner=Ward.


And 10 AS/locked to Iron Axe for melee during the timeframe he's actually supposed to be "better" than your other guys still isn't Upper Mid tier. And it's never going to be.

They can't OHKO with those weapons you're bitching about, so they put these weapons to better use. In fact, most of them aren't ORKOing ever except for archers named Klein on falcos with silver.

Bartre 22 Str+27 from Steel effective bow+ 1from B Fir= 60 mt. Falcos have 41 HP, 10 Def. So uhhh, yeah. Better archer than Klein apparently. Klein also can't whip out a silver axe to murder all the pegasi on the counter either.

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16 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:56 pm

Bartre 22 Str+27 from Steel effective bow+ 1from B Fir= 60 mt.
Math fail?

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17 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:05 pm

Magus wrote:
Bartre 22 Str+27 from Steel effective bow+ 1from B Fir= 60 mt.
Math fail?

Erp, 50...Damn typo.

Either way, that's a ridiculous assumption that Bartre is still base level. 9 chapters, he can't gain 3 levels?

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18 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:17 pm

But let's review.

Ward level 16
25+25 hit, 55 hit with pole axe, +10 from WTA. 115 hit. Best avoid chapter 13 cavs have (basically killer ones who aren't weighed down) have 31 hit. Oh my, 84 hit displayed.

Bartre
36+10 from Fir+55+10 from WTA=111.

Lott level 16
23+15 from supports +55 +10 from WTA=91 hit. 60 displayed.

I fear not, as my hit is actually reliable!

wtf he does not get B fir that early

C, maybe

Bartre B Fir-34+10

Lot level 16-27+25.

52 vs 44. Wow, 8 avoid, I'm so impressed.

What the hell is it with you and giving him Fir support at totally unreasonable times? Lot will be 16 by the time Bartre JOINS. He'll be promoted or close by the time he gets B Fir.

Ward needs to only land one shot, and eliminates the entire point of doubling. Because he kills in one shot. 20 silver ae uses=20 dead pegs for Ward, only 10 for Lott.

Lot has no excuse to run out of weapon uses for this chapter because he's not soloing it and even if it does burn more uses we have an assload of funds by now. Btw Lot prefers Iron since it's still plenty to kill Pegs and has more hit.



Lott's not doubling them, facing WTD, and is doubled by heroes, along with shitty hit.

A: Ward's not either
B: wtf no. How the fuck does he have WTD with Bows?
C: wtf no he's not. Lot at freaking 20/1 is just barely getting doubled by enemies that appear in C21. 20/7 avoids doubles altogether.
D: Bows compensate shit hit.

Both would rather use bows, Ward does mroe damage and has mroe crit. Winner=Ward.

If that Hero and/or anybody near him doesn't die this player phase, Ward gets doubled, doesn't counter, and dies. Lot doesn't really give a crap since, you know, he's not doubled.

They can't OHKO with those weapons you're bitching about

Oh my god he can OHKO at unreliable hit rates for one chapter, give him a fucking medal.

In fact, most of them aren't ORKOing ever except for archers named Klein on falcos with silver.

So what? Bartre is not either. Bartre, as a utility unit, is supposed to be significantly better than your other units during the time he's actually useful. He's not. One hit from him is roughly the same as two hits from anybody else. And what the hell is this "nobody ORKOs ever" bullshit? Percy and Miredy do it fine, Alan/Lance do it with supports, Lugh does it fine after promotion, Shin has more than enough offense to do so, Dick has plenty of str to kill anything he doubles and this is pulled out of my ass. In fact, speaking of Shin, against Bartre, Shin has availability, move, similar offense, slightly worse durability, and virtually no competition for his one Orion Bolt. Once he gets there, likely a bit early? Lose the "similar" offense, it's MUCH better than Bartre's now.
You're either shrugging off major problems for Bartre or you're trying way too hard to pretend his 10 spd isn't a problem.


Bartre 22 Str+27 from Steel effective bow+ 1from B Fir= 60 mt. Falcos have 41 HP, 10 Def. So uhhh, yeah. Better archer than Klein apparently. Klein also can't whip out a silver axe to murder all the pegasi on the counter either.

Oh wow, he can kill Falcos. Big whoop. Ilia enemies suck, I really couldn't give a flying fuck about these flying failures if I wanted to.

Bartre can one shot cavs in C13 at mediocre hit rates and armors in C16 which isn't that big a deal because armors are doofuses by now, and he's screwed if Fir's not in play[After all, I can disqualify her from play and say that Rutger/Dick/Gonz/Lot make her redundant if you're going to say Ellen's redundant due to Guiding Ring], he's very comparable to most of your other units during the other earlygame chapters, and by the time we can actually buy killer axes he's totally useless anyway. That's...well, okay, it's better than some absolute failures. There's no way in fuck it qualifies him for Upper Mid. He has absolutely nothing going for him outside of Slayer utility for two chapters.

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19 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:02 pm

bblader1 wrote:
wtf he does not get B fir that early

C, maybe

7 for C, 20 for B. Small bit for 11 (Fir's required to recruit him anyways), 12, 12x, I think he's not far off.


What the hell is it with you and giving him Fir support at totally unreasonable times? Lot will be 16 by the time Bartre JOINS. He'll be promoted or close by the time he gets B Fir.

With what hero crest? He sort of ya know, has to fight with Ward for it just as much over RUTGER. Bartre luckily doesn't have to deal with this shit, cause he's awesome. Even with your consideration, at best he has a couple more avoid. Does ths really change the fact he has to have Ward to actually pull this off, of which otherwise Bartre could actually pull ahead once Fir reaches A?


Lot has no excuse to run out of weapon uses for this chapter because he's not soloing it and even if it does burn more uses we have an assload of funds by now. Btw Lot prefers Iron since it's still plenty to kill Pegs and has more hit.

Again, not one shotting. One move, that's one pegasi out of the way without a fuss, or havin to deal with 2 chances to miss. One bow shot, down goes a falco. Also-

20/3 Ward Silver AB Thany Deick

30+13+25+10+55=133 hit. Steel pegs only have 30 avoid. Missing is not an issue.

Lot level 20/3 with Iron A Ward B Thany

65+10+15+28+7=125. Lol, should I be so ballsy as to assume that Lot actually having a chance to miss and needing to land 2 shots is a problem when it's still 95 displayed?

Ward might take 4 more damage, but his ability to insta-blick something to avoid a counter+higher avoid means his durability isn't actually far off.


A: Ward's not either
B: wtf no. How the fuck does he have WTD with Bows?
C: wtf no he's not. Lot at freaking 20/1 is just barely getting doubled by enemies that appear in C21. 20/7 avoids doubles altogether.
D: Bows compensate shit hit.

A. No shit, that's why we're using bows.
B. You were assuming Ward was getting it, unless you were thinking hte question was what if we go melee? If so, my bad, so now we're on the same page that we'd prefer to use bows.
C: Bows avoid doubles period..Well, outside of Sacae. But Sacae's not exactly a problem for him anyways.
D: Not shit damage. Lott at 20/10 with +5 and Steel is doing what Bartre was doing at base. Ward with +5 is 25+5 with Steel. Total of 8 more damage. Their mt is respectively 31 and 39. General herohas 52-56 HP, 17 Def. 14 damage versus 22 damage. 4RKO vs 3RKO. With supports, you should note that Ward has 10 points better crit, and his crit will actually KILL the hero.


If that Hero and/or anybody near him doesn't die this player phase, Ward gets doubled, doesn't counter, and dies. Lot doesn't really give a crap since, you know, he's not doubled.

Why are we having axers fight heroes ALONE!?


Oh my god he can OHKO at unreliable hit rates for one chapter, give him a fucking medal.

Since when the fuck was 85-50 displayed unreliable compared to 60 displayed?


So what? Bartre is not either. Bartre, as a utility unit, is supposed to be significantly better than your other units during the time he's actually useful. He's not. One hit from him is roughly the same as two hits from anybody else. And what the hell is this "nobody ORKOs ever" bullshit? Percy and Miredy do it fine, Alan/Lance do it with supports, Lugh does it fine after promotion, Shin has more than enough offense to do so, Dick has plenty of str to kill anything he doubles and this is pulled out of my ass. In fact, speaking of Shin, against Bartre, Shin has availability, move, similar offense, slightly worse durability, and virtually no competition for his one Orion Bolt. Once he gets there, likely a bit early? Lose the "similar" offense, it's MUCH better than Bartre's now.
You're either shrugging off major problems for Bartre or you're trying way too hard to pretend his 10 spd isn't a problem.

Suddenly OHKO is worse than ORKO? Get that out of your head this instant.I know people can ORKO, but OHKO>That on the basis of counter avoid.

Also yeah, CLEARLY trying to argue Bartre above Shin. *rolls eyes*. He has a utility roll, you're just stuck in this "he's not doubling, he must suck" ideal. You said yourself he does in one shot what most can do in two. Why is this a problem for Bartre?


Oh wow, he can kill Falcos. Big whoop. Ilia enemies suck, I really couldn't give a flying fuck about these flying failures if I wanted to.

14 AS is hard to double at that time unless you're Lance and Rutger. They're packing 31 mt. I want them dead ASAP, and Lott can't pull it off. Ward and Bartre can, and they don't risk any counters on anyone while they do it. Killing them safely.


Bartre can one shot cavs in C13 at mediocre hit rates and armors in C16 which isn't that big a deal because armors are doofuses by now, and he's screwed if Fir's not in play[After all, I can disqualify her from play and say that Rutger/Dick/Gonz/Lot make her redundant if you're going to say Ellen's redundant due to Guiding Ring], he's very comparable to most of your other units during the other earlygame chapters, and by the time we can actually buy killer axes he's totally useless anyway. That's...well, okay, it's better than some absolute failures. There's no way in fuck it qualifies him for Upper Mid. He has absolutely nothing going for him outside of Slayer utility for two chapters.

OHKO utility on cavs, Ilian pegs, armors, and being one of your best chippers on those damn merc units and being one of the few viable supports for a swordmaster in upper mid, killer bow utility in Sacae, is suddenly 2 chapters of utility? Bow utility is great if you can reduce a significant amount of counters with it, and he's doing with steel what Klein does with silver. Klein can't melee, and he's obviously more expensive. Just being to kill something in one shot what most people need 2 for is not a bad thing, in fact I think it's great as it reduces the number of weapon uses needed, which makes a weapon last longer while maximizing it's uses.

I should bring up that due to being promoted already with A axes, he's the only one able to get S axes in a relevent amount of time for Armads on wyverns in the desert/mamkutes otherwise. Not like you can't spare a few uses, its a rarely used weapon until endgame, you have 20 uses and hes only using 1 for these purposes outside of mamkutes, of which he would be destroying.

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20 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:20 pm

Grandjackal wrote:14 AS is hard to double at that time unless you're Lance and Rutger. They're packing 31 mt. I want them dead ASAP, and Lott can't pull it off. Ward and Bartre can, and they don't risk any counters on anyone while they do it. Killing them safely.
Shin, Sue, Klein, Igrene have either enough AS or enough rank to kill FKs safely, and even if Lot can't OHKO them, it's totally safe anyway because the next attacker won't face a counter.

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21 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:24 am

dondon151 wrote:
Grandjackal wrote:14 AS is hard to double at that time unless you're Lance and Rutger. They're packing 31 mt. I want them dead ASAP, and Lott can't pull it off. Ward and Bartre can, and they don't risk any counters on anyone while they do it. Killing them safely.
Shin, Sue, Klein, Igrene have either enough AS or enough rank to kill FKs safely, and even if Lot can't OHKO them, it's totally safe anyway because the next attacker won't face a counter.

I'd prefer to just clear them out of the way in one shot, which Lott can't do, but Ward can. Ward, unlike some of the people you listed, can't counter to OHKO these other pegs with WTA. Shin and Sue couldn't do that even if they lucked out epically with sword rank.

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22 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:03 am

Grandjackal wrote:I'd prefer to just clear them out of the way in one shot, which Lott can't do, but Ward can. Ward, unlike some of the people you listed, can't counter to OHKO these other pegs with WTA. Shin and Sue couldn't do that even if they lucked out epically with sword rank.
I don't really care because your idea of using Wade is to have him be a third rate sniper when Klein, Igrene, Sue, and Shin do it better. This "bows avoids doubles so Wade should be using bows" shit that compounds with "Wade can whip out a Silver Axe on enemy phase" is contradictory. What exactly do you want him to do?

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23 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:02 am

7 for C, 20 for B. Small bit for 11 (Fir's required to recruit him anyways), 12, 12x, I think he's not far off.

He's certainly not there yet. Also, I don't think support points keep going once you've already activated a support, so that does hurt it.

But even if we ignore that Fir/Bartre does nothing for his hit anyway. It's a half hit support [FirexThunder] so even if B is viable, omglol 5 hit is not that good.

With what hero crest? He sort of ya know, has to fight with Ward for it just as much over RUTGER.

Fir's getting a free pass on it as we're clearly playing her. Lot is above Fir on the tier list. Let's to to have arguments consistent with tiers.

Even with your consideration, at best he has a couple more avoid.

Ditch B Fir, which you gave him way too early, and it's more like 18. This is not "a couple more" avo.

Again, not one shotting. One move, that's one pegasi out of the way without a fuss

The pegs are ALREADY going down without a fuss. The only thing that happens is that Lot has to get tickled by the peg first. Baw.

Lol, should I be so ballsy as to assume that Lot actually having a chance to miss and needing to land 2 shots is a problem when it's still 95 displayed?

Go ahead, but I'm going to nag you that needing one shot of Silver as opposed to two Iron to kill is a much more notable issue.

Not shit damage. Lott at 20/10 with +5 and Steel is doing what Bartre was doing at base. Ward with +5 is 25+5 with Steel. Total of 8 more damage.

Explain to me how often this 8 damage is actually the difference between killing a Hero in one more attack and not. Seems to me that Lot and Ward both sufficiently wear down the target for the picking.

4RKO vs 3RKO. With supports, you should note that Ward has 10 points better crit, and his crit will actually KILL the hero.

You'd have to be a moron to have bowmen fight an enemy alone so #RKOs are irrelevant in this scenario.

Why are we having axers fight heroes ALONE!?

Why are you assuming it's always a simple "oh Miredy/Perc can just run up to that Hero and silver lance his ass on a stick" to get out? What if they miss? What if they miss the target death by 1-2 points even when Ward attacked? What if WARD misses? etc.

Since when the fuck was 85-50 displayed unreliable compared to 60 displayed?

Where the hell DID you get 85-50?

Bartre
36+10 from Fir+55+10 from WTA=111.

...Okay, first off, Bartre does not have 36 base hit. 11 skill/14 lck equals 29, I have no clue where you pulled 36 [Likely out of your ass, but that's another show]. "But Bartre can level up in three chapter!" Not only do I find this dubious, Bartre's skill/Luck growths suck ass anyway, and he needs 2 luck to get 1 more hit since his luck is even anyway. Not only is 10 hit from Fir Mathematically impossible since the max it gives is 7 at A, B Fir is even questionable, so change that to a 2, but just because I'm in a generous mood I'll make it a 5.

So.

27+5+65=97-31=66 displayed. 77 true. I certainly don't find that reliable at all. Furthermore, Lot is as high as he is for defense, not offense. After promotion he's essentially Bors without all the earlygame suck and more move.


Suddenly OHKO is worse than ORKO? Get that out of your head this instant.I know people can ORKO, but OHKO>That on the basis of counter avoid.

Yeah >, exactly. It's not that much better since it gets to the point where our units care less and less about taking counters [Hi, I'm SilverLance Wyvern Lord, the hardest hitting enemy on the map, and I 4RKO Miredy] and Lot doesn't give a shit about counters at all. Furthermore Bartre's OHKO utility is limited. It's only even possible in two chapters and in one of them his HIT is not reliable in the least.



Also yeah, CLEARLY trying to argue Bartre above Shin.

Don't strawman me. The point of Shin was to illustrate that Bartre has trouble comparing to an Upper Mid unit, as to keep him out of Upper Mid tier.

Second, I never said Bartre sucks during his "utility" timeframe. I said he does not have a point where he ever compares notably better than your army against things he doesn't double, which is pretty much everything on the map. He's not killing them in offense, he's not that much tankier than most. 1 Mov is the only thing he has to say, and that vanishes once your units start promoting, at which point Bartre gets swept under the rug of obscurity. He simply has nothing going for him outside of OHKOing in two chapters.



They're packing 31 mt.

Wow, 31 mt. You are aware this 6RKOs a 20/7 Lot [55 HP/20 def from supports+1 WTA] that two shots this sucker right back. As long as I don't put failsauce units around there is no risk whatsoever of these noobschmucks doing any notable damage at all. Actually, this even depends on which Ilia chapter you're referring to. Lot at 20/9 late Ilia is entirely possible since 20/10 is estimated for 21, and that's enough to double 14 AS.




OHKO utility on cavs, Ilian pegs, armors,


Unreliable chance on cavs, nobody gives a shit about OHKOing Pegs because Joe Blow from Mexico can ORKO them and their attack sucks, and armors are rare enemies that pose a minor threat at best.

and being one of your best chippers on those damn merc units

Who cares about chipping them? Lance them through the chest with two guys who will barely take damage back and get on with your life.

he's the only one able to get S axes in a relevent amount of time for Armads on wyverns

....Armads.

.....On Wyverns.

......Ooooooo.....kaaaay. Now we're wasting uber weapons for no good reason except maybe to hype Bartre the Brave?

Bow utility is great if you can reduce a significant amount of counters with it, and he's doing with steel what Klein does with silver.

Are you trying to say that Klein misses with Silver? Bartre has 97 hit base with Steel Bow.

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24 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:44 am

bblader1 wrote:
He's certainly not there yet. Also, I don't think support points keep going once you've already activated a support, so that does hurt it.

He's close enough, let's not act like 12 and 12x are done in a flash, shall we?

And they do, I know this for a fact. I was a noob when I started playing this game, so I built up supports even after activating one so I could be ready for the next chapter to get a B instantly, just like in FE7. Imagine my surprise that you could get a C and then a B in the same chapter.

Granted I'm not saying that happens in this case, but you do build points after activation.


But even if we ignore that Fir/Bartre does nothing for his hit anyway. It's a half hit support [FirexThunder] so even if B is viable, omglol 5 hit is not that good.

His hit is still better than Lott by miles.


Fir's getting a free pass on it as we're clearly playing her. Lot is above Fir on the tier list. Let's to to have arguments consistent with tiers.

Deick gets the first, Rutger gets the second by your standard. This means that all other hero cresters need to wait till chapter 16, of which costs money, so the point is moot. Ward, Lott and Fir are all in this group, and Bartre just doesn't have to deal with any of that shit. Not taking a promotion item is an advantage.


Ditch B Fir, which you gave him way too early, and it's more like 18. This is not "a couple more" avo.

Now why the hell would I dismiss Fir? If Lott wants offense, he needs a support with Thany which cuts his avoid, if he wants defense then Deick cuts into his hit. Lott needs a specific set-up, and Bartre only needs one person. This one person is very strained on supports, and Bartre gives her an excellent one (crit, avoid, defense). If we are to assume that Ward is upper mid material, Lott just turns into an option just like Ward.


The pegs are ALREADY going down without a fuss. The only thing that happens is that Lot has to get tickled by the peg first. Baw.

Ward 20/3 A Deick B Thany has 54 aavoid+10 from WTA. Steel pegs have 99 hit. 35 hit displayed is not what I call reliable hit. To scratch, you have to hit first.


Go ahead, but I'm going to nag you that needing one shot of Silver as opposed to two Iron to kill is a much more notable issue.

Perhaps, but we all know funds shouldn't be an issue at this point of the game unless your name is Hue.


Explain to me how often this 8 damage is actually the difference between killing a Hero in one more attack and not. Seems to me that Lot and Ward both sufficiently wear down the target for the picking.

Someone avoids a counter really, and the reason listed below. Having 32 HP to deal with rather than 40 HP is quite a notable difference on things that have braves and silvers. Another note is that no one outside of Rutger and Lance are doubling these guys. I would appreciate chip, cause no one has an easy time just flatlining these guys outside of a crit.


You'd have to be a moron to have bowmen fight an enemy alone so #RKOs are irrelevant in this scenario.

It does on the crit chance. 3RKO means a crit will kill, and thus Ward can kill with a crit while Lott cannot. Considering everyone not Lance and Rutger are having trouble with these guys, I'd find that huge.

Srsly, it's reminding me of FE3 Book 2's chapter 20.


Why are you assuming it's always a simple "oh Miredy/Perc can just run up to that Hero and silver lance his ass on a stick" to get out? What if they miss? What if they miss the target death by 1-2 points even when Ward attacked? What if WARD misses? etc.

Irrelevent as it can happen to anyone, this is what Libro is for. Besides, if they missed the kill by points, Lot is just 9-10 off which isf ar less garunteeable. Ward missing is not the issue when he has the better hit rates.


Where the hell DID you get 85-50?


...Okay, first off, Bartre does not have 36 base hit. 11 skill/14 lck equals 29, I have no clue where you pulled 36 [Likely out of your ass, but that's another show]. "But Bartre can level up in three chapter!" Not only do I find this dubious, Bartre's skill/Luck growths suck ass anyway, and he needs 2 luck to get 1 more hit since his luck is even anyway. Not only is 10 hit from Fir Mathematically impossible since the max it gives is 7 at A, B Fir is even questionable, so change that to a 2, but just because I'm in a generous mood I'll make it a 5.

Now why the fuck wouldn't Fir have an A with Bartre when he's her fastest support?

You also seem to be playing by Magvel rules, you don't cut luck in half on hit.


27+5+65=97-31=66 displayed. 77 true. I certainly don't find that reliable at all. Furthermore, Lot is as high as he is for defense, not offense. After promotion he's essentially Bors without all the earlygame suck and more move.

If that's the case, Lott has about 58 displayed if we go by those calculations, which is close to a coin toss. If Bartre's not reliable, Lott shouldn't even be allowed to hold the damn thing.


Yeah >, exactly. It's not that much better since it gets to the point where our units care less and less about taking counters [Hi, I'm SilverLance Wyvern Lord, the hardest hitting enemy on the map, and I 4RKO Miredy] and Lot doesn't give a shit about counters at all. Furthermore Bartre's OHKO utility is limited. It's only even possible in two chapters and in one of them his HIT is not reliable in the least.

Any chapter with people on horses and Ilia is not 2 chapters, and Lott isn't having any better chances (Bartre with Pole Axe=supported Lott with Iron).

In Sacae maybe, but even Ward isn't caring about Sacae either. Any troublesome enemy that he does fear taking counters from (silver beasts, heroes) he would be pulling back to use a bow regardless. Ward and Bartre uses bows better, so Lott is not at advantage with bows. This paired with their OHKO abilities can avoid taking attacks. So while Lott might take less damage, Ward and Bartre take less attacks. Hard to care about a counter when the enemy is incapable of doing so, due to suffering from a major case of the death.


Don't strawman me. The point of Shin was to illustrate that Bartre has trouble comparing to an Upper Mid unit, as to keep him out of Upper Mid tier.

They're better archers than KLEIN outside of brave bow/Miurge use, and they can melee with ways to OHKO entire class types.

Cecilia can't OHKO a damn thing if she tried, and has worse durability problems. Do staffs and horsies outdo this sort of utility when you got these problems?


Second, I never said Bartre sucks during his "utility" timeframe. I said he does not have a point where he ever compares notably better than your army against things he doesn't double, which is pretty much everything on the map. He's not killing them in offense, he's not that much tankier than most. 1 Mov is the only thing he has to say, and that vanishes once your units start promoting, at which point Bartre gets swept under the rug of obscurity. He simply has nothing going for him outside of OHKOing in two chapters.

By the time they promote, it's Sacae/Ilia. I've shown that he's perfectly fine in Ilia. Nomads despite doubling 5RKO Bartre, and Bartre's able to respond with a killer. Lot's only got steel, and has not only less crit than both Ward and Bartre, btu less acc. Defense is fine, but these guys have an actual form of offense, and are not having a hard time surviving themselves. On top of that, finding good archer help for Sacae isn't exactly easy.


Wow, 31 mt. You are aware this 6RKOs a 20/7 Lot [55 HP/20 def from supports+1 WTA] that two shots this sucker right back. As long as I don't put failsauce units around there is no risk whatsoever of these noobschmucks doing any notable damage at all. Actually, this even depends on which Ilia chapter you're referring to. Lot at 20/9 late Ilia is entirely possible since 20/10 is estimated for 21, and that's enough to double 14 AS.

How the fuck did Lott gain 6 levels in 3 chapters? 20/3 sounds more realistic (since when was chapter 18 late Ilia?), of which he has 14+4-2 defense (as he is dependent on Deick to actually get a boost). If he didn't get Deick, that's 14 damage. Granted, it's still a 4RKO, but the fact is that Ward just has an easier time whipping out a bow and shooting the damn thing out of the sky, so that someone else can go deeper and murder things closer to the throne.

Since then all they have to basically deal with on a real level is steel pegs. Lott has defense, Ward can avoid player phase. Both are running good avoid rates here. Neither are having trouble here. They are closer than you think.


Unreliable chance on cavs, nobody gives a shit about OHKOing Pegs because Joe Blow from Mexico can ORKO them and their attack sucks, and armors are rare enemies that pose a minor threat at best.

Better hit than most who can OHKO which is entirely just them aside from perhaps Barth and Douglas, since it seems you're admitting that OHKO is doing as well as anybody doubling isn't a problem, being able to boot an armor out of the way is getting rid of a roadblack either way. This is also ignoring superior bow ability is more important in Sacae than tanking (because it's not hard to actually survive Sacae, it's offense that's the problem), and that bow utility is stell helpful in Bern due to troublesome beasts as the Wyvern Lords and Heroes. All with generally better accuracy and generally the same avoid makes me think you're making mountains out of molehills.


Who cares about chipping them? Lance them through the chest with two guys who will barely take damage back and get on with your life.

Or, I could shoot them, get the same results, except now no counter was taken? Not taking attacks=good.


....Armads.

.....On Wyverns.

......Ooooooo.....kaaaay. Now we're wasting uber weapons for no good reason except maybe to hype Bartre the Brave?

After you get the Armads, this is the number of mamkutes.

2 in the desert, 2 in chapter 16, 2 in 21, 4 I think in 22. Desert, chances are Bartre's only gonna see one of them, 16 they're on the other side of the map from eachother, chapter 21 and 22 you have plenty of legendary weapons by then. Since Armads kills these suckers in two shots, that is a full use of Armads, but let's be realistic. Chances are Bartre's only meeting with one Mamkute in the desert and 16, he's by no means the only one capable of fighting the ones in chapter 21 and 22. That's at best 10 uses. I would prefer one shotting some wyverns on top of this, and since Bartre can at relevent times...Like in the desert, Bern's wyvern lords (Lott at 20/10 with +5 offense does 76 mt, Wyverns have around19 Def, 58 HP. 1 HP shy, and this is if he has Thany and Ward, as Deick assures it less), what have you. Tell me, hw many people can you name are just OHKOing chapter 21 wyvern lords like swating flies out of the sky? Outside of a bowman with a brave bow, I can only name 2. Lott isn't one of them.

Speaking of which, that last bit basically means they don't have to worry about wyvern lords, since they can just swat them out of the sky. That's a major problem just gone.


Are you trying to say that Klein misses with Silver? Bartre has 97 hit base with Steel Bow.

You mean 101. Klein at base with Silver has 119, so obviously Klein misses less. The problem is the mt.

22+9=31. 16+13=29. Bartre does better with steel than Klein does with silver.

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25 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:01 pm

Just wanted to clarify that Luck is Lck/2 in this game, not its full value. I have no idea where you saw that this was only the case in FE8.

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26 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:06 pm

IOS wrote:Just wanted to clarify that Luck is Lck/2 in this game, not its full value. I have no idea where you saw that this was only the case in FE8.

Well this doesn't stop Lot from having inferior hit.

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27 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:21 pm

He's close enough, let's not act like 12 and 12x are done in a flash, shall we?

And they do, I know this for a fact. I was a noob when I started playing this game, so I built up supports even after activating one so I could be ready for the next chapter to get a B instantly, just like in FE7. Imagine my surprise that you could get a C and then a B in the same chapter.

Granted I'm not saying that happens in this case, but you do build points after activation.

Fir is a totally useless support for his hit anyway. So this remains a moot point, thanks for playing.

His hit is still better than Lott by miles.

20 hit is not miles.

Deick gets the first, Rutger gets the second by your standard. This means that all other hero cresters need to wait till chapter 16, of which costs money, so the point is moot. Ward, Lott and Fir are all in this group, and Bartre just doesn't have to deal with any of that shit. Not taking a promotion item is an advantage.

Alternatively cut out Ward altogether [Ward's Army, Lot's army, etc] and give him Thany with 4 less avo instead.

Now why the hell would I dismiss Fir?

You DQd Lugh from Ellen for no good reason apart from "she's obscure". I can DQ Bartre from Fir using the exact. same. logic.

Ward 20/3 A Deick B Thany has 54 aavoid+10 from WTA. Steel pegs have 99 hit. 35 hit displayed is not what I call reliable hit. To scratch, you have to hit first.

Thank you. You've proven that nobody cares about having to take a counter from these schmucks since they fail so hard at combat they can't hit WARD. I trust now that you concede to the fact nobody gives two shits about one shotting pegs.


Perhaps, but we all know funds shouldn't be an issue at this point of the game unless your name is Hue.

And you just proved that Ilia pegs are not an issue for...well, anybody.

Someone avoids a counter really, and the reason listed below. Having 32 HP to deal with rather than 40 HP is quite a notable difference on things that have braves and silvers.

Insightful. I wasn't aware that needing two more attacks to kill them was a more productive scenario than needing two more attacks to kill it.

It does on the crit chance. 3RKO means a crit will kill, and thus Ward can kill with a crit while Lott cannot. Considering everyone not Lance and Rutger are having trouble with these guys, I'd find that huge.

The Hero will die from being breathed on afterwards. This is a barely notable point.

Irrelevent as it can happen to anyone, this is what Libro is for.

Your debating style seems to consist of dodging the issue of what I say with something else. Stop doing that, it's annoying. "everybody can miss" does not change the fact that Ward is fucked with a 14 inch vibrator that plays O Come all ye faithful if the hero and any units around him are not killed this same player phase, and Lot is not.

Now why the fuck wouldn't Fir have an A with Bartre when he's her fastest support?

Now why the fuck would anybody care since oh noes two more hit? This doesn't counter anything I said about Bartre's hit being unreliable. Try again.

If that's the case, Lott has about 58 displayed if we go by those calculations, which is close to a coin toss. If Bartre's not reliable, Lott shouldn't even be allowed to hold the damn thing.

Oh, well fine by me. BECAUSE I DON'T EVER RECALL BRINGING UP LOT'S ABILITY TO USE THE FUCKING THING!
Strawmanning my arguments does not earn you brownie points, knock it off.

This paired with their OHKO abilities can avoid taking attacks. So while Lott might take less damage, Ward and Bartre take less attacks. Hard to care about a counter when the enemy is incapable of doing so, due to suffering from a major case of the death.

Huh. I wasn't aware that nomads could counterattack. Shocking development.

Furthermore since Sacae is so Nomad heavy, the only thing having Bartre whip out Halberd is going to do, apart from giving him even worse hit rates than usual, is make him an enemy magnet. Also you're totally walking around the point that Lot does not care about eating counterattacks because he essentially has Bors level durability.[/s] Furthermore his much better AS allows him to actually double attack and one round things anyway.

They're better archers than KLEIN outside of brave bow/Miurge use, and they can melee with ways to OHKO entire class types.

There you go [i]again
countering arguments I never used. For fuck's sake, stop that, this is the third time I've had to call you out on it THIS POST. What I said was, Shin is an upper Mid tier unit, and I gave a list of his advantages over Bartre. If Bartre has no answer to these advantages, he has no business being Upper Mid tier. Read this post, comprehend it, and THEN reply to it. I'm getting sick of hearing responses to things I never said.

I've shown that he's perfectly fine in Ilia.

Zealot is fine in Ilia. Pegs suck dick offensively and defensively. Irrelevant point. Next.

How the fuck did Lott gain 6 levels in 3 chapters? 20/3 sounds more realistic

Oh, so now Lot's restricted to 20/3 whereas everybody else is 20/7 by now, as 20/10 is the average C21 level. Now we're resorting to blatant sandbagging, which is a sign of desperation.

Better hit than most who can OHKO which is entirely just them aside from perhaps Barth and Douglas, since it seems you're admitting that OHKO is doing as well as anybody doubling isn't a problem,

No, it's not. ORKOing much more often than Bartre Does>>>>>>One shotting, but not nearly as often. And if Bartre misses, hey, guess what happens? Not only does he do no damage to the target, but he takes a counter, the exact same thing you're getting all butthurt over.

Also, stop using "better hit than most" as an excuse. It's like saying Paint Your Wagon is a better film than Gigli.

This is also ignoring superior bow ability is more important in Sacae than tanking

What superior bow ability? Lot 2RKOs Nomads. Bartre 2RKOs Nomads but he gets doubled in the process. Yes, I agree, superior bow ability is more important. Good thing Lot's the one who has it.

Or, I could shoot them, get the same results, except now no counter was taken? Not taking attacks=good.

One unit had to take a little boo-boo of six damage [Mercs's single attacks suck]. Cry harder.



After you get the Armads, this is the number of mamkutes.

Don't cover your ass. You CLEARLY said mamkutes and wyverns. Using it on Desert wyverns is nothing but a waste.

Like in the desert, Bern's wyvern lords (Lott at 20/10 with +5 offense does 76 mt, Wyverns have around19 Def, 58 HP. 1 HP shy, and this is if he has Thany and Ward, as Deick assures it less), what have you. Tell me, hw many people can you name are just OHKOing chapter 21 wyvern lords like swating flies out of the sky? Outside of a bowman with a brave bow, I can only name 2. Lott isn't one of them.

Why, oh why do you insist on exaggerating the net positive of things certian units can do at times? Wyvern Lords in 14 are not that hard to deal with. Tank the fuckers with early promotion Miredy, and kill the son of a bitch with somebody else or maybe her. Hell, ditch the early promotion and it's the same.

Can Bartre one shot Lords in 14? Yes, if he gets 50 attacks in such a short timespan. Do I care? Not really.

You mean 101. Klein at base with Silver has 119, so obviously Klein misses less. The problem is the mt.

Your ability to strawman your way out of points never ceases to amaze me. And no, it is 97, learn game mechanics. Didn't you get told this shit about luck before?

22+9=31. 16+13=29. Bartre does better with steel than Klein does with silver.

Um, yeah. Doubling with 2-5 less mt suddenly became worse than hitting once with notable hit problems? Aaaaannnyyyything you say.


mekkah you have no idea how grateful I am you made the list topic before jackal did

Also, I missed this.

Any chapter with people on horses and Ilia is not 2 chapters

Stop trying to use "he's good in Ilia!" as an argument. Ilia is a piss easy portion of the game, everybody and their mother is good there. Furthermore, any chapter with people on horses? Sorry, I'm having difficulty finding places where these actually exist outside of 13 and 16. I'll stab you if you try to use Sacae as an argument.

And I REALLY skipped over this: Nomads don't get hit by effective boosts in this game. Totally forgot about that. Not that this does anything except hurt Bartre.

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28 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:53 am

Couple things I want to clear up.

1. Bartre has no other option for his hit, so some is better than none. You can agree wit this, can't ya?

2. 20 hit IS miles if it's miles for avoid.

3. I could say the same thing about cutting out Lot, and Ward would not be as effected. This doesn't stop the fact that they are not getting it before someone like Rutger or Gonzales. Even Geese can promote early, god knows he needs it.

4. You seem to have accepted that even someone like Ward and Bartre don't care, as they're doing as well as everyone else in Ilia, just like Lot.

5. My point is that someone like Lot chipping, it might be 3 guys rather than 2 trying to clean up Lot's mess.

6. If you are gonna have two people shoot at guys with bows alone, there's no reason you shouldn't have others around. Then consider that both would suck in their own unique way (Ward would probably get murdered, Lot's going to whiff uselessly), there's no reason they shouldn't have people around when they're chipping heroes, because regardless their axes are useless. Neother whould be caught with their pants down like that, durability or no.

7. The support is more for Fir's sake, actually. She turns out to have very few viable options for supports, and Bartre gives her excellent boosts she wants. Avoid, crit, even a bit of defense while she gets a bit of offense for herself. A swordmaster with more crit and avoid is always nice.

8. Everyone else didn't promote at chapter 16, 20/3 sounds reasonable. Go ahead for 20/4 or 5 if you want, 20/5 is a bit too high.

9. Concerning Sacae, Bartre would have killer bows, thus the offense being better. I suppose it's minor though.

10. Horse chapters after he joins? 13, 15, 16x, 17. Would say Bern, but it's probably broke by then.

But otherwise, I can see your point. Perhaps Lot COULD rise (lol, he has the balls to have player phase in Sacae without the brave bow, refuses to die). However, as for Bartre himself, do you REALLY think with all that in mind he's a tier worse than Klein? He seems to fit in upper mid better than lower with the likes of OJ.

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29 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:12 am

1. Bartre has no other option for his hit, so some is better than none. You can agree wit this, can't ya?

7 hit is still basically nothing.

3. I could say the same thing about cutting out Lot, and Ward would not be as effected. This doesn't stop the fact that they are not getting it before someone like Rutger or Gonzales. Even Geese can promote early, god knows he needs it.

If the argument applies to Lot, goddess knows it applies to Ward.


4. You seem to have accepted that even someone like Ward and Bartre don't care, as they're doing as well as everyone else in Ilia, just like Lot.

They don't care...what? Wins in Ilia are irrelevant because Lot wins just as badly.

5. My point is that someone like Lot chipping, it might be 3 guys rather than 2 trying to clean up Lot's mess.

And I see absolutely no reason why 8 HP should ever mean the difference between two guys killing you, and not.

6. If you are gonna have two people shoot at guys with bows alone, there's no reason you shouldn't have others around.

Typing out basic logic doesn't refute a goddamn thing I said, you know. Maybe the enemy is out of kill margin even if Ward hit. Maybe unit A is just out of hero range. Maybe one of our units miss. Ward has the problem of dying if the demands of killing all units near him are not met. Lot does not. Adv: Lot.

7. The support is more for Fir's sake, actually. She turns out to have very few viable options for supports, and Bartre gives her excellent boosts she wants. Avoid, crit, even a bit of defense while she gets a bit of offense for herself. A swordmaster with more crit and avoid is always nice.

Fir doesn't want avo or crit. She wants ATK. Before promotion the crit doesn't really do much for her and I kind of doubt her avo is too reliable with or without it either.


8. Everyone else didn't promote at chapter 16, 20/3 sounds reasonable. Go ahead for 20/4 or 5 if you want, 20/5 is a bit too high.

Assuming Lot does promote at 16 is an awful sandbag.



9. Concerning Sacae, Bartre would have killer bows, thus the offense being better. I suppose it's minor though.

Lot may start at E Bows, but due to the fact he can actually double, a term that is incomprehensible to Bartre, his double WEXP gain offsets Bartre's higher base bow level.


10. Horse chapters after he joins? 13, 15, 16x, 17. Would say Bern, but it's probably broke by then.

15? What, did it suddenly become a good idea to kill off Percival's unit and lose the knight crest? Okay, therer ARE cavs here iirc but they're so few it doesn't make a difference. They're just reinforcements from the fort at the end. Kill him early and Bartre has pretty much no cavs to work with.

17? I told you he doesn't get effective bonus on Nomads. And I've told you in fifty different ways why nobodyc ares that he's good at Ilia, only your really awful units have an excuse to be awful there [Even Zealot isn't terrible which is pathetic]

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30 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:29 am

bblader1 wrote:
Fir doesn't want avo or crit. She wants ATK. Before promotion the crit doesn't really do much for her and I kind of doubt her avo is too reliable with or without it either.


And she gets it from lolNoah, I think she'd honestly prefer a fast support that gives crit and avoid, 2 things more important to a swordmaster than a couple more ATK.


Assuming Lot does promote at 16 is an awful sandbag.

He's got plenty of competition for the chapter 10/11 crest. Show me why he'd be better at taking it than Rutger or Gonzales.


Lot may start at E Bows, but due to the fact he can actually double, a term that is incomprehensible to Bartre, his double WEXP gain offsets Bartre's higher base bow level.

You assuming chapter 11 is when he promotes then?

15/1 Lot

46 HP, 13 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 5 Luck, 11 Def, 2 Res. 26 hit, 31 avoid, 6 crit.

Basically you made Echidna double less things.

12/1 Gonzales Bartre route (only 1 level)

47 HP, 18 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 6 Luck, 10 Def, 0 Res. 27 hit, 32 avoid, 36 crit.

You know it;s a bad day when you got similar hit to Gonzales. They're about the same durably, and Gonzo has 30 crit on Lot. Don't think I'll be crying over bows.

Top that off with a 5 Str gap, Lot's chance at the chapter 10/11 crest is incredibly iffy.


17? I told you he doesn't get effective bonus on Nomads. And I've told you in fifty different ways why nobodyc ares that he's good at Ilia, only your really awful units have an excuse to be awful there [Even Zealot isn't terrible which is pathetic]

Chapter 17 Sacae is before the chapter where nomads are en masse, this is the FoW map. There are cavs and pallies here.

I was aware nomads are not effected by slayer effect.

Now do answer, do you really think Bartre is a tier below Klein?

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31 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:42 am

And she gets it from lolNoah, I think she'd honestly prefer a fast support that gives crit and avoid, 2 things more important to a swordmaster than a couple more ATK.

I told you the crit barely makes a difference until she promotes. And around that time, Bartre is fading into obscurity.

He's got plenty of competition for the chapter 10/11 crest. Show me why he'd be better at taking it than Rutger or Gonzales.

I shouldn't have to. Just because you're a better unit doesn't entitle you to more resources. Lot does not automatically promote at 16 just because superior cresters are in play.

You know it;s a bad day when you got similar hit to Gonzales.

Holy shit, BOWS, we were just discussing this.

Now do answer, do you really think Bartre is a tier below Klein?

The only reason I can tolerate Bartre in upper mid is because dondon thinks he's a tier up on Cecilia.

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32 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:43 am

Mekkah

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Someone remind me what this discussion's point is again?

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33 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:49 am

bblader1 wrote:The only reason I can tolerate Bartre in upper mid is because dondon thinks he's a tier up on Cecilia.
It's this or a combination of the two being in the same tier with their relative positions being unchanged or something.

And let's not kid ourselves here; Klein is only separated from Bartre by 2 characters, but having a 3 AS lead with higher growth makes a huge difference. In fact I'm not even quite sold on Fir > Klein any more because of how not having 2 range ends up taking away more enemy phase action than it seems to at first glance, but that's for another topic and another time.

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34 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:53 am

Mekkah wrote:Someone remind me what this discussion's point is again?

I'll try to be brief.

-Started as a comparison of Bartre to Echidna. I did this because people are quick to dismiss Bartre for Echidna.

-Obviously that was an overboard comparison, so I just went simple and asked if his performance truly wasn't upper mid material.

-Bblader Said if Bartre goes up, then so does Lot.

-I argued that there isn't a tier difference between them, though I never said there wasn't a sizeable lead for Lot.

-Turned into a lot of blahblahblah which ignored the question of "Is Bartre truly not upper mid material". Bblader basically said that he's not gonna be upper mid because he can't compare to people like Shin, when the question I've asked is if he's truly a tier worse than Klein and Cecilia (staves and horsie is nice, but does it really make up for shitty everything else? Klein can double on occasion, and he has brave bow/Miurge access, but Bartre does have actual melee combat that is sizeable despite not doubling. Not saying he's better than both, but is he really a tier different?).

I think that sums it up well, though Lot might rise to around Gonzales level, if he's not there already.

EDIT: @Dondon, oh god, not that can of worms again...

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35 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:57 am

Mekkah

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I think at first glance Bartre is more comparable to the people in Lower than in Upper Mid, tbh, but it's always semi-arguable since it's not like we can go "well one has much better stats and there's no other factors so one > the other"

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36 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:09 am

I'll put it simply then.

Cecilia has Bartre's base speed with a worse growth while joining later. Her offense is bad enough that she has a hard time killing fliers with aircalibur. Bartre with a silver axe does the job better, due to OHKO and the fact that he's able to stand in a group and swat em out en masse due to A. having 18 more HP and 3 more defense at base, B. More avoid due to 4 greater luck at base, more time to level with his superior speed growth and WTA, which further adds to his durability, and C. Him using steel to shoot falcos out of the sky is more effective than Cecilia using aircalibur. Sacae, she gets doubled like he does, but compare the 11x2 damage she faces with her 30 HP to his 8x2 to his 48 HP base, which by now should be detered by levels and possibly a Fir support. Bern? Well, neither are doubled by wyvern lords, but Armads>Aircalibur in this situation when neither are doubling.

Staffs and a horse really beats out destroying her in combat in every way imaginable?

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37 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:13 am

Grandjackal wrote:but Armads>Aircalibur in this situation when neither are doubling.
And what's Forblaze doing, sitting in our inventory when we could be using it on generic WKs?

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38 Re: Echidna vs Bartre on Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:20 am

dondon151 wrote:
Grandjackal wrote:but Armads>Aircalibur in this situation when neither are doubling.
And what's Forblaze doing, sitting in our inventory when we could be using it on generic WKs?

Not killing Wyvern Lords. 59 mt is what she would have with it at 15, which is barely their HP. They might not have a lot of Res, but they have some. Bartre at level 10 has 82 mt with Armads, removing 19 from defense is 63.

It's also not giving +5 Def and WTA for the avoid and extra defense point. Cecilia can't even attempt to tank here, Bartre could.

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