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Suggestion: Route tier lists

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1 Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:22 pm

The FE8 board has a list for both Eirika and Ephraim, perhaps this board can have separate lists for Echidna/Lalum and Bartre/Elphin? Unless we think that not enough would change for it to make a difference, of course. Just an idea to think about.

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2 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:27 pm

That's 4 lists.

Echidna-Ilia
Echidna-Sacae
Bartre-Ilia
Bartre-Sacae

Tad troublesome don't ya think?

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3 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:54 pm

The Ilia/Sacae thing is different. It would have to assume only one of the PK's/Nomads can be used and one of the other also has to be used, which would cause confusion in their placements for sure. I only suggest Bartre/Elphin and Echidna/Lalum because it's a much simpler choice, and we can go about Ilia/Sacae the way we've always done it.

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4 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:58 pm

I did this on my list on Serenes technically with character difference placements for their routes. It was dismissed as stupid almost immediately.

Making two lists for incredibly minor differences without taking the supplimentation of the two future routes seems unecessary.

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5 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:00 pm

Perhaps, which is why I added this little bit:
Unless we think that not enough would change for it to make a difference, of course.
Although this isn't exactly the same as your split characters were. Wasn't Bartre still lower partially for booting out Echidna, even though we'd determined that the blow was lessened?

Also, Lalum > Elphin I believe is entirely based on the fact that Echidna > Bartre. Without that, Elphin = Lalum.

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6 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:03 pm

Mekkah

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I did it for Eirika/Ephraim because it encompasses six midgame chapters in a game with ~20 maps total. Well, slightly more due to Prologue, 5x and two Final parts, but the first maps are super short. In this case, we talk about two maps in a game with ~30 maps. 1/3 of the game versus 1/15th. I believe the impact for most characters is negligible in FE6 compared to FE8.

For example, on Ephraim route, Duessel is considered one of the best, if not the best character when he joins. On Eirika route, he misses like 4-5 midgame maps, dropping him several tiers.

Per comparison, the non-route-exclusive characters Gonzales and Geese hardly differ much at all. I made a huge point of this on SF: if a unit is better than Geese [A], then he is better than Geese [B], no reasonable way around it.

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7 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:07 pm

I should add that it also affects some supports. I think Fir is the biggest case. Her support with Bartre is super fast and gives full crit and avoid, which is awesome for her, but is quite obviously absent on the other route. Gonzales can also support Echinda, though I don't know how much weight is being put on that due to its slow speed.

I'm not so adamant on this that I need another list. I only put it out there to see if anyone else wanted it. If no one else does, I'm perfectly fine dropping it.

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8 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:10 pm

Used to be, then we dismissed it immediately. She's only better on enemies she doubles, of which are all unpromoted. Then factor in Bartre has 9 more Str. Lemme break it down.

Echidna base. 23 mt with steel axe.

Bartre-32 mt

Chapter 13 cav-39 HP, 9-10 Def.

14-13x2 for Echidna, 23-22 for Bartre. She has killer axes sure, but he can use the brave axe better on paladin bastards, or can just whip out some pole-axe punishment for 52 mt which just OHKOs them whereas Echidna couldn't with her 43 mt. Bartre also has 13 more HP and 2 more Def than Echidna for taking 30 mt paladins and their silvers better on counter. His 48 HP and 10 def, +1 from the WTA, he's taking 19 damage, a 3RKO as opposed to the 21 to Echidna's 35 HP.

Only reason he's in lower mid and not upper is doubling issues. The Fir support is fine, especially with Echidna's slow-ass supports, but it doesn't help HIM so much without a B, and Bartre's Bs are all slow outside of lol Karel.

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9 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:18 pm

Mekkah

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Regardless of the truthfulness...what was the point of that Bartre vs Echidna comparison here again?

Anyway, I overlooked Fir. She does significantly improve with a full crit support. But she seems a nearly complete standalone case, so if anything I would use Fir [Bartre] and Fir [Echidna] if needed.

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10 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:20 pm

It was to answer Red's question of assuming we went Echidna route on the basis that Bartre shoves out Echidna. The list you have posted is my list from serenes after all. Bartre's really only worse later on, so it's not a total loss going Bartre route.

Though it does make me wonder if Bartre is still underrated...

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11 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:24 pm

Mekkah

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That's a Karel/Harken kind of deal if you ask me. The questions are:
- how much worse is one of these characters compared to the other
- should the worse one be punished for denying the existence of the better one

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12 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:25 pm

If the difference is minimal, I wouldn't punish the weaker one by much, if any.

I guess I'll start a topic on it.

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13 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:09 pm

It's already determined that Zeiss and Fir are heavily affected by the route change. Now imagine that both Thany and Shin are raised, and that Thany trails shin by 2-3 levels. Thany is definitely usable, and will be sent on Sacae route, and will proceed to get anally violated. Same deal for Tate. Also, Sacae route favors speed demons, as you'll have a pretty distinct group of units with 22+ AS and can thus double nomads.

Even though it's only 5 chapters (17, 18, 19, 20, 20x), it seems to me the route split causes some significant changes in the list if you look for them.

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14 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:33 am

Mekkah

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I'm fine with trying it. I'll make the change soon.

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15 Re: Suggestion: Route tier lists on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:53 am

Mekkah

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I made the change. The lists are identical right now, feel free to make threads for changes to either of them!

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