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I call bull on Giffca>Cain.

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1 I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:41 am

First off, what's this shit about Giffca getting a speed transfer? He needs two speedwings to do it, ASSUMING that the game counts transformed bonuses. Lots of other PoR characters need speedwings to cap so this issue really can't be ignored, as he is potentially robbing several other characters of a cap.

And then, even if he gets it, this doesn't cancel out no Formshift. Yeah, Lagooz gem, but it can't be guaranteed he's the only one who wants it [All the Herons do] Hell, there's even the chance of somebody like Volug still being in play, or even more likely, Janaff/Ulki, which really damages his claim on it. And if he doesn't get the gem, Formshift>>>>Slightly [or notably IF he gets the transfer] speed.

Oh, and I feel just as strongly as Giffca=Cain, for that matter.

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2 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:56 am

bblader1 wrote:First off, what's this shit about Giffca getting a speed transfer? He needs two speedwings to do it, ASSUMING that the game counts transformed bonuses. Lots of other PoR characters need speedwings to cap so this issue really can't be ignored, as he is potentially robbing several other characters of a cap.

And then, even if he gets it, this doesn't cancel out no Formshift. Yeah, Lagooz gem, but it can't be guaranteed he's the only one who wants it [All the Herons do] Hell, there's even the chance of somebody like Volug still being in play, or even more likely, Janaff/Ulki, which really damages his claim on it. And if he doesn't get the gem, Formshift>>>>Slightly [or notably IF he gets the transfer] speed.
Giffca gets a STR transfer, not a SPD transfer, which puts his mt above Cain's.

The reason why Giffca is where he is, is because he has a good chance of getting SPD on a BEXP'ed level up, and the SPD is actually significant for him iirc (ask Red Fox).

The laguz gem argument is retarded. Not only do you have plenty of them (there are three by 4-E-4) that can be traded around, and are highly unlikely to have a zoo's worth of non-royal laguz that need them, but Giffca's gauge goes down so slowly that you could get away with using a laguz stone instead in some circumstances. And Rafiel doesn't want a Gem.

Giffca basically loses 4 Player Phases to Cain due to the Formshift. That's all, really.

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3 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:00 pm

Where did we ever say he gets a spd transfer? I think the idea was that even on HM we have some bexp, and spd happens to be his highest growth, and by a fair amount over the tie for 3rd. Which means that 36 spd could go higher. Also, 36 AS is already enough to double Seph while he's equipped his weapon. Parity + base Giffca = dead Lehran. Only unit that can say that. Tibarn and Nailah need str procs, Naesala needs str procs and SS, Cain needs a spd proc with a 20% spd growth that is 6th lowest, or he needs Nasir. Ike needs a blood tide and 36 AS or Nasir. Wishblade users with 36 spd need a +mt support and a blood tide. Neph needs white tide and blood tide and to be str blessed. Basically, Giffca can ORKO a guy nobody else can, and that happens to be the way to finish the chapter.

And 4-E-2 doesn't matter, since you can one or two turn it, so a laguz stone is fine anyway since even if you stick around a bit Giffca won't untransform. Have you seen Lion gauge? If Ranulf had lion gauge he'd jump above Ulki probably. Anyway, it amounts to 4 player phases. Except 4-E-1 doesn't matter, 4-E-4 doesn't really matter since there aren't exactly a lot of spirits close enough for everyone to attack on turn 1 anyway. 4-E-3 shouldn't be long enough to untransform Giffca and he starts with full. If you end it on turn 5 Giffca could be in 9 battles and be fine. He'll untransform on the last one, which should be enough.

So formshift basically amounts to attacking a general on turn 1 of 4-E-1. Also, you have 2 laguz gems. No way you use all 10 uses in such a way that Giffca can't get to use the gem in 4-E-1 to allow more than 9 battles in 5 turns. The other 4 chapters he doesn't need anything more than 3 laguz stone uses, and you can buy those.

Giffca(T) is guaranteed a str transfer, so he'll beat Cain by 2 mt and 2 AS. Also means a higher roar% when it matters. Although with his newfound 68mt he no longer even cares about Generals on cover tiles that have 51hp and 31 def. He still cares if they have more than that, though. Cain, though, has 66mt and doesn't ORKO 51hp/41def. I see no reason why a single attack in 4-E-1 and the possibility of an attack in 4-E-4 should put Cain > Giffca when Cain loses the two most important stats. Oh, I'm sure Giffca will double some swordies in 4-E-2 that Cain doesn't, since a bunch are bound to have 31 or 32 AS.

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4 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:09 pm

Rofl

I've been arguing this for the longest time and only now it gets some acceptance.

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5 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:22 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Rofl

I've been arguing this for the longest time and only now it gets some acceptance.

Giffca > Cain?

Or Cain > Giffca?


Also, I don't think we ever decided about the N versions, but Giffca(T) should be pretty easy.

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6 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Giffca > Cain.

Cain's advantage in Giffca is negligible until 4-E-5. If we get Giffca to 40 spd there, he basically outputs twice as much damage as Cain against auras. That >>>> 4 turns of player phase lost, most of which don't matter anyway (you usually can't reach enemies on turn 1 without a vigor or something).

Also, laguz stones will work in place of laguz gems most of the time due to how short 4-E chapters are in general.

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7 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:38 pm

Just to add on...

With a BEXP dump of two, that's maxed speed, +2 HP, 1 Str and 1 Skill. Str is maxed, speed is 40 so he doubles auras naturally without Nasir. 48 str+22 mt from SS strike is 70. 1 Blood tide boosts it up to 75. Auras have 90 HP, 30 Def.

Yup, with that Strength transfer, I could even just give him a C support if Str levels don't proc (gotta love Darkness). And what do I get? 1 blood tide, and I can smoke an aura in one round of combat. Cain would need an energy drop(or the same amount of BEXP), Nasir, and a blood tide to do the same. Transfer made Giffca MUCH cheaper, and uneeding of Nasir for destroying an aura. Seriously, just 1 blood tide and I can make an aura disappear? 4-E-5 might not measure much on the richter scale, but that's nuts no matter how you split it.

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8 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:40 pm

Well speaking of supports, earth >>> dark, but it hardly matters since you'll only be at like C-B level by 4-E-3, and by then enemy hitrates skyrocket.

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9 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:42 pm

Vykan12 wrote:Rofl

I've been arguing this for the longest time and only now it gets some acceptance.

Seriously? I brought it up a while ago in the FE10 list on SF and it was met with almost 100% acceptance.

So everything has pretty much been covered. One BEXP level allows Giffca to double all 4-E-2 SM's and Mufasa to OHKO some of them, so if 4-E-2 matters, that's worth noting. Then Giffca needs just one more BEXP level to double Auras without Nasir. All Mufasa really has is a slightly higher Roar% because I dod'n think his +2 Str actually kills anything Giffca doesn't either, but, as Narga mentioned, the transfer Giffca can get will allow him ORKO some Generals on Def tiles (I specifically remember being on that map and Mufasa being 1-2 points away from a ORKO).

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10 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:49 pm

I recall Smash opposing me on it somewhere (maybe gfaqs), mainly making a huge deal about how expensive laguz gems are.

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11 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:01 pm

Vykan12 wrote:I recall Smash opposing me on it somewhere (maybe gfaqs), mainly making a huge deal about how expensive laguz gems are.

typical.

As if taking one use out of 10 in 4-E-1 even matters. Depending on team set up you might even be able to 5 turn and only use Giffca in 9 battles, in which case a laguz stone covers it.

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12 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:41 am

Giffca vs Cain basically boils down to having a better chance at not requiring Nasir to double 8 enemies in the shortest chapter in the game, versus not losing 1st turns and not limiting the team structure as much.

Although, given how slowly lions untransform, Giffca could probably get away with just a laguz stone for all 4-E chapters except 1. On the flip side, losing 1st turns when chapters are pretty short, since 4-E-2, 4, and 5 are like, 3 turns long at most.

Meh, neither really has a significant advantage over the other, and I don't want to spend more than 3 posts on it when there are bigger issues with the tier list.

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13 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:59 am

smash fanatic wrote:Giffca vs Cain basically boils down to having a better chance at not requiring Nasir to double 8 enemies in the shortest chapter in the game, versus not losing 1st turns and not limiting the team structure as much.

Although, given how slowly lions untransform, Giffca could probably get away with just a laguz stone for all 4-E chapters except 1. On the flip side, losing 1st turns when chapters are pretty short, since 4-E-2, 4, and 5 are like, 3 turns long at most.

Meh, neither really has a significant advantage over the other, and I don't want to spend more than 3 posts on it when there are bigger issues with the tier list.

If it makes you feel any better they are currently listed together. The transfer versions should be quite obvious, though, since 2 more mt and 2 more speed are a big deal at times. Generals on cover tiles, Swordmasters in 4-E-2 (some bexp gets him there, which isn't a bad idea since you undoubtedly have some and a guy that ORKOs things and takes no damage in return from things that have crit rates on your other guys is a good thing.) Also Lehran. And the chance of doubling auras without Nasir is there to cancel out Cain's one extra attack in 4-E-5. Really, it comes down to one extra attack in 4-E-1, since that's the only chapter where the one extra attack is relevant.

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14 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:09 am

smash fanatic wrote:On the flip side, losing 1st turns when chapters are pretty short, since 4-E-2, 4, and 5 are like, 3 turns long at most.
He's not even losing 1st turns, just 1st Player Phases, which is not the same thing. Giffca is more than capable on Turn 1 Enemy Phase.

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15 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:54 pm

Well, it kind of matters in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 since there's nothing he can counter.

But I'm pretty sure pwning auras makes up for it in 4-E-5. Not sure about SMs in 4-E-2 since they're only on the left side of the room, although their Speed is retarded so the only people doubling them are like... Trueblades, Volke, and other Royals.

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16 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:36 pm

Paperblade wrote:Well, it kind of matters in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 since there's nothing he can counter.

But I'm pretty sure pwning auras makes up for it in 4-E-5. Not sure about SMs in 4-E-2 since they're only on the left side of the room, although their Speed is retarded so the only people doubling them are like... Trueblades, Volke, and other Royals.

The existence of Tibarn and Nailah and the fact they start with 40 AS and 38 AS and thus don't need extra bexp to double hurts the utility Giffca gets somewhat. Also, Nailah's stupidly high luck hurts Giffca there as well since she isn't really sweating the crits. Well, they do have 2%, but since they only cause 7 damage to base Nailah at best, 21 from a crit isn't going to cause too much worry. If all 4 were to crit unsupported base Nailah it would be 3 + 18 + 18 + 21 = 60 damage to 66 hp. A simple +def C support cuts it to 48 damage. And the chances of that is .02 x .02 x .02 x .22 = .00000176, so .000176%, which is, needless to say, extremely low and not worth considering. Also, she's immune to crits from the snipers. And daunt nearby (not necessarily on her) means no more crits from swordmasters, either.

Still, its an advantage that Giffca could have over Cain: 66 mt at base, 68 if you give him bexp and he pulls off str (less likely than Giffca getting spd, but it is tied for 2nd and .1 over 4th). However, any swordmasters that pull off 22 def won't die even then without blood tide. So Cain has a lower chance of killing them than Giffca.


As for 4-E-4, it doesn't really matter. Turn 1 doesn't have all that many within range, and Giffca is arguably your best bet on Lehran anyway, since with Parity Lehran is basically dead. 88 + 28 + 100 = 216 hit against Sephiran's 64 + 40 = 104 avo. I think Sephiran is on a tile that gives avo as well as 10 def, but it isn't like that matters with Parity. And Giffca and Sephiran are both type 6s, meaning neither goes to best or worst, so base Giffca will take him down with Parity as long as the spirits aren't there.

Does Parity make the spirits irrelevant? I'm thinking no, though its stupid if it doesn't because of what Parity is supposed to do.

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17 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:43 pm

I never disagreed with transfers Giffca > Cain, broski.

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18 Re: I call bull on Giffca>Cain. on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:50 pm

Paperblade wrote:I never disagreed with transfers Giffca > Cain, broski.


Wha? I know that.

I thought we were also thinking about their N versions. Giffca still has the whole possibly doubling swordmasters and auras thing going on without a transfer. I'm just inputting my thoughts on what they do without transfers. The might values were Cain's and how he may actually OHKO some of the swordmasters and if Giffca isn't doubling them then that's a clear win for Cain on some of them. Also, nuking Sephiran happens regardless of transfer or no, and since KOing the boss should be more important than KOing one spirit on the first turn it seems like a win for Giffca in that chapter.

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