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If Ymir is neutral

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1 If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:34 am

why isn't Lolenz

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2 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:36 am

I haven't figured out everyone that isn't viable yet.

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3 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:50 am

You shouldn't have to. If Arran and Samson are both being neutralized, it makes no sense as to why Lolenz shouldn't be.

Catria, too. I showed that it's not just lategame that she beats Dolph in.she can weaken something with a unforged ridersbane and or kill something with a forged one and it'd be more useful than Dolph's entire existence. Dolph and Mac down there too, or Catria/Palla out of it.

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4 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:54 am

Dolph and Macellan can actually exist. Katua cannot.

You don't understand the purpose of Neutral tier, obviously.

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5 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:57 am

apparently not

So do explain. There's recruitment "costs" to be considered, but Dolph is doing absolutely nothing worthwhile that constitutes him being a tier (let alone two) above Catria for the entire time he exists. What can he do, get 2RKOd for the portion of the game we still play normally and then warpskip? Dolph may as well be Neutral tier, Whitewing recruitment cost or not.

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6 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:01 pm

Katua is recruited, then she ends up doing nothing because the following chapters are getting skipped.

If you people begged so much for auto-failing of characters, then this is what you get, unfair tiering of characters.

You said it yourself, Dolph does nothing but suck, which is suck tier, not neutral tier.

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7 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:07 pm

Katua is recruited, then she ends up doing nothing because the following chapters are getting skipped.

See, you're not getting it. I can say the exact same thing about Dolph, except for some very minor contributions in C13.

You said it yourself, Dolph does nothing but suck, which is suck tier, not neutral tier.

What does he actually DO? He has crap mov in one chapter where enemies won't prioritize him because of his def, and then he has crap mov and does absolutely nothing in another chapter. How does this constitute such a large gap?

If you don't contribute anything useful in the chapters that exist, you're just as bad as Lolenz, really.

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8 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:08 pm

minor contributions in C13.
Which exempts him from Neutral Tier.

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9 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:11 pm

My argument is that said contributions in the chapters he exist are not enough to make him contribute notably more than the Neutralized, thus should not be considered much better than a decimal in terms of positive utility, thus he should not be two tiers above Neutral tier, not that he contributes nothing.

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10 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:15 pm

My argument is that said contributions in the chapters he exist are not enough to make him contribute notably more than the Neutralized,
THIS DOESN'T MATTER. He can exist, therefore must be tiered.

thus should not be considered much better than a decimal in terms of positive utility, thus he should not be two tiers above Neutral tier
Neutral Tier =/= bottom tier. It's just a grouping of characters that can no longer be tiered properly. You're looking for the Warpless tier list where Dolph and Katua are comparable.

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11 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:29 pm

I normally don't post in FE11, but since this is a discussion about tiering philosophy, not about FE11 details...

Ymir and his merry band of failures don't belong in some special "neutral tier", they just belong in a superbottom tier.

Recruitment cost should never ever ever be held against a unit. Recruiting Catria forces you to not warpskip a chapter? Good for her. Now measure her performance after that point. Chances are it'll be nearly zero (since after you recruit her you instantly warpskip the chapter, and then warpskip the rest of the game), but it won't be actually zero, because in theory she could kill some enemy that's standing between Marth and the warper or something. the point is that she doesn't belong in a "doesn't exist" tier, she belongs in a "completely worthless because what she does is garbage" tier, i.e., bottom. If the difference between Catria and Dolph can be proven to be miniscule, they deserve the same status in bottom tier.

I'll elaborate on my reasons for saying recruitment cost shouldn't count against a unit if asked to, but I'm pretty certain it's fairly standard in tiers, or at least is in every tier list but this one. AAnd if this is the only tier list it's not standard in, chances are this is the one that needs to change.

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12 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:56 pm

Recruitment cost should never ever ever be held against a unit.
Stopped reading here.

It's not about recruitment. It's about the fact that even if they are recruited they are not able to do anything.

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13 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:59 pm

FE3_Player wrote:
Recruitment cost should never ever ever be held against a unit.
Stopped reading here.

It's not about recruitment. It's about the fact that even if they are recruited they are not able to do anything.

Might want to have kept reading, then. I post an example in that poist of something Catria can do. It sucks, but hey, that's why she's bottom tier.

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14 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:03 pm

because in theory she could kill some enemy that's standing between Marth and the warper or something.
No map has enemies standing next to your units when you start a chapter.

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15 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:18 pm

FE3_Player wrote:
because in theory she could kill some enemy that's standing between Marth and the warper or something.
No map has enemies standing next to your units when you start a chapter.

I said right after you recruit her. It's entirely possible for, after recruiting her, your units aren't in an optimal arrangement. Plus, what about chapters like the hammerne one, where even with warps it's 4 turns? and anybody can be a suicide to weaken Minerva's brother.

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16 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:24 pm

It is possible to complete C14 without being able to recruit Katua, so chances are if you recruit Katua, you've already cleared the way to the end of the chapter.

An underleveled Katua will not touch anything on C20, much less Michalis.

She is neutral. Deal with it.

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17 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:25 pm

FE3_Player wrote:It is possible to complete C14 without being able to recruit Katua, so chances are if you recruit Katua, you've already cleared the way to the end of the chapter.

An underleveled Katua will not touch anything on C20, much less Michalis.

She is neutral. Deal with it.

This just means she sucks, not that she can't do anything.

EDIT: I'm going to drop this for a bit and ask people's opinions on irc tonight, based on which I may or may not continue.

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18 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:02 pm

If your way of countering my argument that Dolph does basically nothing in the chapters he is used in is "BUH HE DOES SOMETHING SO TIER GAP OVER PPL WHO DO NOTHING OKAY" without explaining how what he DOES is actually a noteworthy positive at all, then fine, really.

Roundabout arguments are starting to become a thing with you and tbh it's really starting to annoy me.

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19 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:44 pm

I wouldn't really see "Neutral/No Positive" as a tier gap, but more of a dividing line between the people who can do something, anything (every unit before skipping begins can, at worst, be used as a sacrifice, in Dolph's case to the reinforcements in his join chapter to slow them down), and those who can't.

I agree Dolph is probably worth like 0.1 while Palla is just a straight zero, and I agree that doesn't warrant a tier gap in the usual sense, but I don't think the true neutral group is a traditional tier grouping, either. I'd see it more as indicating units who are effectively removed from the tier list, on account of the fact that they literally might as well not exist in the game at all.

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20 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:47 pm

As I pointed out on irc, for what it's worth, the class A putzes currently in neutral are capable of contributing SOMETHING, despite that something sucking. The mage class has 3 magic base, and thunder is an E rank tome with 6 mt. The majority of lategame bosses have <9 res. If a series of unfortunate misses or something with your skittles units leaves the boss with a tiny amount of hp left, then the "neutral" unit can finish him off and thus save you a turn.

It's not much, but it is greater than zero.

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21 Re: If Ymir is neutral on Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:05 pm

The Warp charge used to bring the "neutral" unit to the boss could instead be used to bring another main team unit in. If Barst and Shiida together fail to kill a boss, the next step is to warp in Cord, not base level Mage Palla. Mage Palla could theoretically contribute like you're saying if it were possible to have the rest of your team attack the boss and still have room for Palla to attack somewhere, and also if you had enough warpers to send the whole team + Palla to the boss, but I don't think that's the case.

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