Fire Emblem Genesis

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Barst > Zag

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1 Barst > Zag on Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:08 pm

The time has come.

My argument is very simple. Wolf's bases are better than Zagaro's; Wolf has 2 more Hp, 1 more Spd, and 3 more Luck. In growths, Zagaro only wins in Def by 20% (vs Wolf's 2 higher base Hp and climbing out of the getting-doubled rut sooner), while Wolf wins in Str by 20% in exchange. Zagaro also wins Skl by 10%, but Wolf wins Luck by 20%, so w/e.

Basically, Wolf and Zagaro are almost equal, and if Barst > Wolf, there is no reason that he shouldn't also be better than Zagaro.

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2 Re: Barst > Zag on Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:16 pm

I am inclined to agree.

Seems there is a new Metal around here...

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3 Re: Barst > Zag on Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:25 pm

Except I was the one that actually typed the rigged Wolf comparison to help people understand...

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4 Re: Barst > Zag on Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:34 am

I was hoping that Interceptor would be the one to make this thread, because he is the one that has an actual case for this (as opposed to everyone else except maybe BB just bandwagoning.)

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5 Re: Barst > Zag on Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:30 am

"And to be fair, --/7 Hero Zagaro isn't that much better than 15/1 Barst:

--/7 Zag: 32.6 HP | 10.8 Str | 16.2 Skl | 15.9 Spd | 3.8 Luck | 12.1 Def | 2.0 Res

Actually he loses durability and his offense is still a bit meek. Remember how Barst has 30 Atk? Zag here has 25 at best, and this is assuming he climbed from E to B in that short of a time.

And then look at 15/7 Barst to --/10 Zag:

Barst - 39 HP 17 str 21 AS 13 def
Zag - 38.0 HP | 13.2 Str | 19.4 Skl | 18.3 Spd | 4.7 Luck | 14.7 Def | 2.0 Res

Zag's only wins are 2 Def vs. 1 HP, then he loses offense to Pegasi if they dare come + the Sniper in the corridoor. Let's see, if he's getting Silver Axes by now he has 27 Atk. So looking at a Cavalier real fast:

Cav 7 (Silver Lance): 35 (36) HP, 27 (28) atk, 103 (104) hit, 10 (11) AS, 9 (10) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

He can fail to ORKO these unless he procs Str or gets A Axes, and if we're not seeing A Axes for Wolf, it's probably just as hard for Zag too.

So if Barst > Wolf can happen... I think that Barst > Zag can happen too following "nearly" the same logic applied against Wolf here.
"

And people thought that 9 Wolf was too high (I didn't really. It's 6 levels for 5, 6, 6X, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 which is 8 chapters, 7 if we knock off 6X though I guess in reality it's about 6 chapters as 5 he's huddled into a corner until Marth's party arrives), and I went with the assumption that Zag would just be -2 in comparison to Wolf as far as levels go.

And, may I add, Interceptor's Hero Zag at the moment only has E Axes and he just finished Chapter 14

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6 Re: Barst > Zag on Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:42 am

Barst vs. Sedgar comes down to the worth of earlier chapters, because Sedgar eventually beats Barst forever in martial stats, at least in the scenario where they are both Heroes (the best promoted class for both, I think).

In my playthrough, which is at Ch. 15, Sedgar is still losing to Barst offensively from a mt perspective. He has no Hand Axe access yet, and he's reliant on an Iron Axe forged to Silver Axe prowess just to tiegame with what Barst can do with plain Steel. Defensively, Sedgar is superior only in DEF, since they have about the same HP and RES. This is an advantage for him, but it's not as big as you might think, since Barst is basically getting 3-4HKO'ed at this point anyway.

Anyway, Barst has more headroom in his level ceiling, but he loses growths badly so the writing is on the wall, here. Within about 4-6 levels, Sedgar will begin to surpass him in STR, he'll be faster, have good 1-2 range with Hand Axes (this will happen very soon), and lack of access to Hauteclere and Silver won't be a big deal due to the presence of forged E and D-rank Axes. About the only thing that Barst will retain is Hammer/Poleax access, but Sedgar won't care about taking counters and has the STR/SPD to largely brute-force his way regardless.


So this comparison is about the earlygame. I need to point out here that Barst doesn't know what it means to have a period of suck, because he's always one of your best units. He starts with D Axes, which is quite fortunate for him, since it allows immediate Hand/Devil Axe usage, and lets him skill up to C for Hammertime just when it's needed.

Sedgar doesn't even exist in Ch. 2-4, and might as well not exist in Ch. 5. You need to spend the next 3 chapters -- including the 6x Gaiden -- handling him gently and trying not to break him. You need to feed him EXP, pre-chewing enemies for him, because he's not good at getting it on his own. You have to be very careful not to over-extend him, as his durability is quite fragile at this point even as a General, and he's prone to getting crit-killed by everyone and their mother.

I'm not going to detail every little notch in Sedgar's growth chart -- partly because it's already detailed in my 2.0 log, and partly because it's PE and subject to RNG alterations -- but suffice it to say that Sedgar's training period must continue on a periodic basis until about Ch. 12 or 13 or so. Now, unlike his extremely early game, where he has to be babied, after about Ch. 8 or so he can handle himself and he's generally capable of doing something useful for the army.

However... Barst is basically one of your best units this entire time. He's fighting for MVP status, but he's fighting with Caeda for that title, not with Sedgar. By the time Sedgar actually starts to beat him, I expect that we're in Warp-skip territory, which is where Barst's durability doesn't even matter anymore.


I reserve the right to adjust my opinion as late game becomes reality instead of theory in this playthrough, but I don't see how Sedgar can possibly claim to be more vital for efficient play than Barst. This game is about 10 chapters too short for that.

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7 Re: Barst > Zag on Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:26 pm

Aside from all that......

Wolf's bases are better than Zagaro's; Wolf has 2 more Hp, 1 more Spd, and 3 more Luck. In growths, Zagaro only wins in Def by 20% (vs Wolf's 2 higher base Hp and climbing out of the getting-doubled rut sooner), while Wolf wins in Str by 20% in exchange. Zagaro also wins Skl by 10%, but Wolf wins Luck by 20%, so w/e.

Basically, Wolf and Zagaro are almost equal, and if Barst > Wolf, there is no reason that he shouldn't also be better than Zagaro.


I suppose I am not arguing Barst > Zagaro so much as arguing that Wolf and Zag should stick right next to each other, no matter what, and if Barst > one he should also be better than the other. Intricate arguments and theories and such might apply to where Zag/Wolf should go and how much they are worth, but I find it to be exceedingly clear that regardless of where they end up, there should be no one between them.

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