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Zealot to upper mid

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1 Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:47 pm

5 Zealot: 11 Str, 13.8 Spd----38 Hp, 12.2 Def, 7.6 Res, 33.2 Avo
Base Cecilia: 11 Mag, 10 Spd----30 Hp, 7 Def, 13 Res, 30 Avo

I don't see that Cecilia wins at anything except offense vs wyverns and having staves.

Plus then there's the whole thing where Zealot is actually really good for a significant period of time before Cecilia joins.

2 Zealot: 10.2 Str, 13.2 Spd----35.8 Hp, 11.3 Def, 7.2 Res, 31.6 Avo
12 Dieck: 11.8 Str, 12.1 Spd----32.3 Hp, 7.4 Def, 2 Res, 31.6 Avo

Really short post, I know, but I don't see the need to say anything more. Seems blatantly obvious.

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2 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:52 pm

I think I need some more information before I agree with zealot going to upper mid but yeah, I am in 100% agree on Zealot > Cecilia

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3 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:52 pm

Mekkah

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Cecilia doesn't have to fight at all to be a positive (and when she does, her 1-2 range is more accurate, so easier to not get in the way). Zealot does. It's like a 15th string fighter vs a 3rd string healer or so. Basically, under a net system, these two pretty much see no combat at all when they're both around because it's a negative (everyone else's enemy phase is better).

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4 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:59 pm

What this does make me wonder is if FE6 needs to develop a mid tier, like every other list has.

However, I can't quite agree with this, as for what Mekkah said is true.

If I may note about the offense versus wyverns thing though, uhh...Zealot can double the steel weighed riders, and he has access to the wyrmslayer. Sure, Cecilia doessn't have to take the counter, but at least Zealot can actually kill them in a round.

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5 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:00 pm

Under a net system, Zealot wins by default for actually being good for a while. Cecilia is crappy as soon as she shows up, and can't even contribute much in her join chapter thanks to it being the desert.

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6 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:03 pm

CAT5 wrote:Under a net system, Zealot wins by default for actually being good for a while. Cecilia is crappy as soon as she shows up, and can't even contribute much in her join chapter thanks to it being the desert.

No one contributes much in the desert unless you're a flier. Even mages have to be careful, since there's wyverns and mercs everywhere. Mages can't be swarmed by the wyverns, and mercs just ruin them.

At least she starts with Aircalibur, can heal, can restore, and can help throw people around via rescue drop chaining.

Certainly not as good as Zealot's start, but in exchange Cecilia can't exactly become worthless thanks to mount and staffs. Zealot on the other hand is better benched at some point eventually.

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7 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:08 pm

No one contributes much in the desert unless you're a flier. Even mages have to be careful, since there's wyverns and mercs everywhere. Mages can't be swarmed by the wyverns, and mercs just ruin them.

Indeed, hence, my point.

At least she starts with Aircalibur, can heal, can restore, and can help throw people around via rescue drop chaining.

Which would be so much better if she could keep up with the rest of everyone.

Certainly not as good as Zealot's start, but in exchange Cecilia can't exactly become worthless thanks to mount and staffs. Zealot on the other hand is better benched at some point eventually.

She sure can, or atleast, she can become very close to worthless. There's definitely a point in the game at which a 3rd or 4th healer unit is not one of your preferred choices for a deployment slot. I'd argue that it's not too long after Cecilia joins.

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8 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:12 pm

CAT5 wrote:
Which would be so much better if she could keep up with the rest of everyone.

Is the rest of everyone your 3 fliers and the mages that are still endangered here? She's getting flown up over the ridge with the rest of them, and there's that alcove of asandlessness next to the Arcadian walls. In the sand, it's 2 move, like most of your other foot soldiers.

Unless you're prepromote Deick or Echidna, you can't just say her move is worse than fliers and expect her to compare cause unless you have wings, you pretty much can't.


She sure can, or atleast, she can become very close to worthless. There's definitely a point in the game at which a 3rd or 4th healer unit is not one of your preferred choices for a deployment slot. I'd argue that it's not too long after Cecilia joins.

How many of those healers have mounts and canto? Or supports, with good people like, let's say, Percival?

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9 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:47 pm

How many of those healers have mounts and canto?

clarine

also canto pretty much doesnt exist in this game

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10 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:48 pm

sPortsman wrote:
How many of those healers have mounts and canto?

clarine

also canto pretty much doesnt exist in this game

Yes, one other person.

...good point about canto though, what the hell did I say that for?

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11 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:49 pm

Is the rest of everyone your 3 fliers and the mages that are still endangered here? She's getting flown up over the ridge with the rest of them, and there's that alcove of asandlessness next to the Arcadian walls. In the sand, it's 2 move, like most of your other foot soldiers.

Unless you're prepromote Deick or Echidna, you can't just say her move is worse than fliers and expect her to compare cause unless you have wings, you pretty much can't.

Those 3 fliers are airlifting Roy + your best units on ahead. It's doubtful that Cecilia's coming with when there's only 2 seats open (probably going to Alan/Lance). Ofcourse the fliers could come back for a second trip, but at that point she's behind the first group for the rest of the chapter. Her overall effect on Ch 14's turncount should be negligible.

Pretty sure Zealot contributes more in Ch 7.

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12 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:52 pm

Fine fine, I suppose he does.

Though I still do remember getting schooled on the fact that he should still be lower mid. Unless a mid tier is made, I don't see him getting out of it, mainly because he can't take full credit till after the isles, since Marcus's usefulness lasts through there as well. That partial credit argument.

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13 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:24 pm

I don't see what Marcus has to do with Zealot's contributions. It's not like the two are mutually exclusive. Zealot is rly good when he joins and for atleast several chapters afterwards, and rly good units get used and contribute positively, regardless of whether or not there are any other rly good units around.

Cecilia on the other hand is never rly good, and indeed much the opposite. Zealot's definitely contributing more under net system just by being awesome for a while. I included the Cecilia-jointime stats for the convenience of people who might complain about that for whatever reason, but then I realized that Zealot wins under gross system aswell simply for joining so much earlier, so it's all good.

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14 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:26 pm

CAT5 wrote:I don't see what Marcus has to do with Zealot's contributions. It's not like the two are mutually exclusive. Zealot is rly good when he joins and for atleast several chapters afterwards, and rly good units get used and contribute positively, regardless of whether or not there are any other rly good units around.

Cecilia on the other hand is never rly good, and indeed much the opposite. Zealot's definitely contributing more under net system just by being awesome for a while. I included the Cecilia-jointime stats for the convenience of people who might complain about that for whatever reason, but then I realized that Zealot wins under net system aswell simply for joining so much earlier, so it's all good.

Thing is I agree with you, but I think someone would have that sort of mindset.

Perhaps now it's better to try to compare him to someone in upper mid?

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15 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:33 pm

What sort of mindset? I pointed out that gross system just results in Zealot still winning, possibly by even more than before. lol, 9 chapter availability lead.

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16 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:36 pm

CAT5 wrote:What sort of mindset? I pointed out that gross system just results in Zealot still winning, possibly by even more than before. lol, 9 chapter availability lead.

It's what's stopped his move up before. The argument was basically that he wasn't important enough to warrent using, what with how he's played.

Which yes, I feel is a silly argument.

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17 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:40 pm

You're going to have to explain alot better than that. Not "important enough?" "How he's played?" Can we define what "important" means, or "how he's played?"

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18 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:46 pm

CAT5 wrote:You're going to have to explain alot better than that. Not "important enough?" "How he's played?" Can we define what "important" means, or "how he's played?"

Important=needed, required. Marcus is needed, required for chapter 1. Zealot is not for the isles. Basically, the claim is that people are Zealot's equal when he shows up.

How he's played-We use him, then bench him eventually as the team is better off. The idea that is the team is equal to him when he shows up then proceed to go on while he needs to be benched, why use him?

Equal and then needing to be benched=lower mid, apparently. This is however, a claim that people are comparing to Zealot upon his arrival, and you and I know that's not exactly truth. He starts better, and can be benched later without fuss.

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19 Re: Zealot to upper mid on Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:33 am

Marcus is not needed for Ch 1. He's just extremely helpful.

Zealot is not equal to most units when he joins, either.

9-10 Lance, C's w/ Roy and Alan: 10.4 Str, 12.25 Spd----27 Hp, 8.7 Def, 2.25 Res, 39.45 Avo

Let's see, there's the best unit in the game on Ch 7. Here's Zealot:

10 Str, 13 Spd----35 Hp, 11 Def, 7 Res, 31 Avo (+ move, axes, weapon ranks, con)

You get a second Silver Lance in Ch 6 and Zealot is one of only two units who will have A Lances right now (and right now you also happen to have two Silver Lances).

Now let's compare these two on Ch 7's enemies, starting with offense.

Steel Lance Knight: 26 Hp/12 Def
vs Lance w/ Iron: 5 x 2 (3RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Iron Axe/Silver/Hammer: 7 x 2/12 x 2 (2RKO both ways, but Silver Lance's massive damage can make the difference on whether it takes one or two extra units to finish it off)/23 x 2 (ORKO)

Javelin Knight: 28 Hp, 12 Def
vs Lance w/ Javelin: 4 x 2 (4RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Hand Axe: 6 x 2 (3RKO)

Iron Sword Merc: 28 Hp, 7 Def, 11 AS
vs Lance w/ Iron: 11 x 1 (3RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Silver: 18 x 1 (2RKO)

Iron Bow Archer: 30 Hp, 6 Def, 8 AS
vs Lance w/ Iron/Javelin: 11 x 2/10 x 1 (2RKO/3RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Silver/Javelin: 18 x 2/10 x 2 (ORKO/2RKO)

Javelin Cavalier: 31 Hp, 8 Def, 7 AS
vs Lance w/ Iron/Javelin: 9 x 2/8 x 1 (2RKO/4RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Silver/Hand Axe/Halberd: 16 x 2/10 x 2/33 x 1 (ORKO/2RKO/OHKO)

Javelin loldier: 33 Hp, 2 Def
vs Lance w/ Iron: 15 x 2 (2RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Iron Axe: 17 x 2 (ORKO)

Mage: 23 Hp, 4 Def, 8 AS
vs Lance w/ Javelin: 12 x 1 (2RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Javelin: 12 x 2 (ORKO)

And, dun dun dun......

Steel Lance Dragon Knight: 34 Hp, 13 Def
vs Lance w/ Iron/Javelin: 4 x 2/3 x 2 (5RKO/6RKO)
vs Zealot w/ Iron Axe/Hand Axe/Silver: 6 x 2/5 x 2/11 x 2 (3RKO/4RKO/2RKO)

Zealot kills in atleast 1 less round than Lance against all enemies, and in most cases he actually doesn't even need the Silver Lance to do it, that's like icing on the cake (2RKO vs 5RKO on those Dragon Knights).

And I won't bother to give the numbers on defense, it's clear that Zealot is considerably better at that, too.

Now for fun, instead of comparing him to the top ranked unit, let's compare him against an upper mid.

6 Lugh: 6 Mag, 8.5 Spd----18.5 Hp, 3.7 Def, 6.5 Res, 23.8 Avo

Should I rly even bother? It's not that I'm unwilling to give lots of stats and numbers on how much better Zealot is here, it's just that it's unnecessary as long as you're not blind. The Dragon Knights OHKO Lugh, while Zealot is 3HKO'd @ ~31% hit, and takes 10 rounds to die on average. Mercs on this chapter can get 12 Spd, so if Lugh winds up with 8, he is ORKO'd. Meanwhile the same Merc would do 2 damage to Zealot. Lugh's offense vs Knights, with a 12 Def/Res gap, is nearly the same as Zealot's Silver Lance offense against them (actually Zealot is still doing more damage, though).

It's clear that Zealot is definitely valuable when he first appears, and should remain useful throughout the Isles at worst. He can bust out Killer Axes 2 chaps before sword/lance units get their Killers, and assuming that his doubling remains steady, Lance doesn't catch up with his base Hp/Def until after promotion, so he'll obviously still be good for quite a long time.

Lugh is ranked even lower than Lot, whom I used for my Marcus comparison, and not likely to even be used as filler material until Gonzo/Echidna/etc start to join. I hardly think a tier gap in Lugh's favor to be justified.

I don't have enemy stats for Ch 14 yet, but I shouldn't need them, it's blatantly obvious that Cecilia's jointime performance is a joke compared to this. If being a 3rd or 4th string healer for half the game outweighs what Zealot has, then I'm gonna go make a topic arguing L'Arachel to at least the top of lower mid on the FE8 list.

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