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As long as Gilliam's moving up, how about above Innes too? (Eirika route)

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Does 3 more chapters of availability really make up for Gilliam's sheer availability, support flexibility, combat prowess (Innes has good player phase with the right weapons, but does it really make up for Gilliam's tanking+utter weapon selection+countering+1-2 range?)?

Innes has better move while not requiring a promotion item, this much is true. However, that promotion item is the one Orion's Bolt in the game, of which only one other person can use. There is that argument that a prepromote saves a promotion item, allowing someone else to use it. Well it doesn't help that the only item of his kind only has one person to use it, so she isn't taking it from anybody, so him existing or not doesn't help anyone promote any sooner. Best this advantage does is give you 5,000 more gold in a gold-rich game, it's not exactly a huge advantage in his favor.

As for his offense, that is a question. He starts with 14 Str, which is not bad. However, it's not great when you're basically having Swordmaster offense on player phase only while being attacked is actually a detriment on the basis that countering>not countering (as for his offense comparing to a swordmaster , Joshua has 15 Str at 20/1, yet not even crit bonuses exist for the Sniper, nor do the slayer forms swords have like Zanbato and Armorslayer). Gilliam even before promotion has access to weapons like the Heavy Spear, Horse Slayer, Axereaver, avelins for 1-2 range. After promotion, it becomes a blowout. He gets access to a secondary ranged weapon, triangle control, and soon to come all slayer types, reavers, none of it is a mystery to him. While he might not double, he will indefinitely be able to tank and smash several enemies at once compared to Innes's 1.

11/1 Gilliam (I'm just gonna go with General for the speed)
35.3 HP, 14.15 Str, 10.45 Skill, 8.1 Speed, 5.1 Luck, 14.85 Def, 7.4 Res

7 levels to get where he needs to be, and you get a knight's crest in chapter 8. In comparison, Franz would need 9 levels just to promote. It's not a matter of greatness, but rather a matter of if Franz can actually get to promotion when Gilliam could. It would then be logical to assume that Gilliam has this sort of performance before Innes evne arrives, which is essentially 2 1/2 chapters later. Then, you would basically be saying that Innes has twice Gilliam's offense. this is true, for as long as his silver bow lasts. Once it breaks, Innes has no way to compare to Gilliam's slayer weapons, or his 1-2 range, or his supports, or his tankiness, or his weapon control.

Gilliam does have supports too, 2 good ones, Franz (who's a bit lashed for a B), and Moulder (who's only other real option is the slower supporting Colm or too far away Vanessa). If it's fair to say 7 turns is the chapter average, and he starts in chapter 2 with Franz, chapter 3 with Moulder, then it's to say that 7x2 multiplied by the number of chapters Gilliam has before Innes's arrival (10 1/2 for Franz, 9 1/2 for Moulder), Gilliam could have 2 turns away from a B for Franz (so a C, since obviously they won't be glued together all the time), and nearly a B with Moulder (since it's not hard to imagine them being close together, and obviously some chapters like chapter 8 will take longer than 7 turns). B Moulder, C Franz. That's +1 ATK, 3 Def, 12 avoid, 2 hit, 10 crit, 7 crit avoid. Offensively not much has changed, but defensively he's soon to help Franz be a bit tougher, while he himself has defense pretty much under control.

To measure, comparing with those stats up there, he has the following defensive parameters.

35 HP, 21+12 avoid, 14-15+3 Def, 7+3 Res

Level 5 Seth has 33 HP, 40 avoid, 12-13 Def, 9 Res supportless. He doesn't quite even beat him in solid durability, not necesarily avoid either (Gilliam DOES have a 3rd weapon type for full control). Obviously, Seth won't be supportless (even full defense support, he'd tie concrete defense, and even then you have to consider still that Gilliam more often has WTA), but I think it's fair to say this was doing pretty nicely considering. In a technical sense, Seth's only wins at this point (considering Eirika and Franz), his wins would be 5 avid and 4 Res.

Obviously he doesn't compare to Seth offensively, but I just wanted to show that Gilliam has no problem tanking, doing his own form of chip damage to more than 1 enemy a turn. He's also benefitting a team with his presence, of which Innes cannot due to not existing, then continues not to do so until his supoprts build up (as nice as Gerik tanking better is, he'd prefer the crit and offense Saleh (who is quicker) and Joshua give (and both are better units than Innes himself, whereas Gilliam's excuse for Franz is that his better supports do not exist yet, and for Moulder is that he's the quickest one that's nearby the most often) as he is tough enough already).

I would compare them directly, but it's hard to do so. Innes doubles, Gilliam doesn't. Gilliam can fight swarms of enemies along with bitchslapping someone on the player phase, Innes can only attack once a turn outside of rare conditions of enemy phase counter. Gilliam benefits other units for longer, Innes does not, and he's no fair claim to doing so whereas Gilliam does.

Perhaps I'm missing something (I doubt flier slaying is THAT big a deal), but it sounds pretty fair in Gilliam's field to me.

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Innes has better move while not requiring a promotion item, this much is true. However, that promotion item is the one Orion's Bolt in the game, of which only one other person can use. There is that argument that a prepromote saves a promotion item, allowing someone else to use it. Well it doesn't help that the only item of his kind only has one person to use it, so she isn't taking it from anybody, so him existing or not doesn't help anyone promote any sooner. Best this advantage does is give you 5,000 more gold in a gold-rich game, it's not exactly a huge advantage in his favor.

Innes's team still has an extra Knight Crest which Gilliam's team doesn't. You only get 2-3 free Knight Crests before Ch 16, and there's already 3 Knight Crest units in top/high, so Gilliam is either buying a Knight Crest for 10K in Ch 14, or promoting after Ch 16. If nothing else, the extra 10K from not having to buy a Knight Crest will purchase 2-3 more Physics.

The rest of your post assumes a super-early promotion for Gilliam and states that Gilliam is helping just by existing, which isn't necessarily true. I guess you could argue that promotion benefits Gilliam more than a Cav, but I'd disagree, as the Cavs will notice all their promo gains, whereas Gilliam will only really notice Str and to a smaller extent Spd. And either way some sort of opportunity cost needs to be atleast acknowledged.

As for Gilliam's "tankiness" and such, that would be so much better if his offense weren't so bad. Being able to counter alot isn't so impressive if you're doing it with terrible offense; it's better to have units with atleast halfway decent offense handing out those counters.

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CAT5 wrote:
Innes's team still has an extra Knight Crest which Gilliam's team doesn't. You only get 2-3 free Knight Crests before Ch 16, and there's already 3 Knight Crest units in top/high, so Gilliam is either buying a Knight Crest for 10K in Ch 14, or promoting after Ch 16. If nothing else, the extra 10K from not having to buy a Knight Crest will purchase 2-3 more Physics.

Secret Books, you get 2 before chapter 14. Goddess Icon, you get 1 before 14. Stat-ups no one gives a shit about, and I haven't even tallied up the rest.

Those are 12,000

Orion's Bolt is 5000

Red Gem is 2000, Blue Gem 5000, Innes's gem is 10,000.

This isn't even counting hte free money the game gives to you, we have 34,000 already.

How many physics do you need?


The rest of your post assumes a super-early promotion for Gilliam and states that Gilliam is helping just by existing, which isn't necessarily true. I guess you could argue that promotion benefits Gilliam more than a Cav, but I'd disagree, as the Cavs will notice all their promo gains, whereas Gilliam will only really notice Str and to a smaller extent Spd. And either way some sort of opportunity cost needs to be atleast acknowledged.

It is acknowledged. It takes 2x2 damage and axes away from Franz, 1x2 damage for Forde and axes, Kyle and Franz in the same boat. However, the deal is an early promotion.

Kyle at 10/1 has 11 speed, and this is if you can explain how Kyle got 5 levels in essentially 2 chapters. He would lose out durably as well. It would be the same for Forde, except he would only have 9 Str, a 5 loss to Gilliam. Let's say both had iron axes. 21 might for Gilliam, 16 for Forde, fighting a 6 defense enemy. Forde would only be doing 5 more damage, and he would not even come close to durably matching Gill.

At best, he is guilty of taking the first crest from Franz, and that's if 11 speed can actually consistantly double at Bink's chapter. Since I can't find stats anywhere, I can't exactly assume that.


As for Gilliam's "tankiness" and such, that would be so much better if his offense weren't so bad. Being able to counter alot isn't so impressive if you're doing it with terrible offense; it's better to have units with atleast halfway decent offense handing out those counters.

34 effective might with a spear slayer weapon is monsterous. It is true what you say (not arguing him out of lower mid after all), but he has ways to patch up his lack of doubling through these weapons. Innes cannot make up for his lack of countering.

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Does 3 more chapters of availability really make up for Gilliam's sheer availability

You really need to fix this typo as I have no idea what you’re getting at.

11/1 Gilliam (I'm just gonna go with General for the speed)
35.3 HP, 14.15 Str, 10.45 Skill, 8.1 Speed, 5.1 Luck, 14.85 Def, 7.4 Res

Why did you post these stats? You don’t make any reference to them at all in the post. If you want to be taken seriously, I’d expect to see something like “11/1 iron lance!Gilliam 2HKOes everything he faces in chapter X”. Also, there’s no comparison to Innes, so we have no idea how their offence and durability actually compare. You can’t just gauge advantages through pure speculation.

It's not a matter of greatness, but rather a matter of if Franz can actually get to promotion when Gilliam could. It would then be logical to assume that Gilliam has this sort of performance before Innes even arrives, which is essentially 2 1/2 chapters later.

What in the blazes are you talking about? I have no idea what “this sort of performance” is implying.

Then, you would basically be saying that Innes has twice Gilliam's offense. This is true, for as long as his silver bow lasts. Once it breaks, Innes has no way to compare to Gilliam's slayer weapons, or his 1-2 range, or his supports, or his tankiness, or his weapon control.

See, this is why your wilful ignorance of statistical data gets you in trouble. Innes can ORKO reliably with a steel bow, so either Innes has twice Gilliam’s offense virtually all the time, or Gilliam is better even when Innes uses the silver bow.

To measure, comparing with those stats up there, he has the following defensive parameters.

Gilliam is durable, we get it.

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Vykan12 wrote:
You really need to fix this typo as I have no idea what you’re getting at.

Pardon, I should just rephrase it entirely.

Gilliam has a clear availability lead.


Why did you post these stats? You don’t make any reference to them at all in the post. If you want to be taken seriously, I’d expect to see something like “11/1 iron lance!Gilliam 2HKOes everything he faces in chapter X”. Also, there’s no comparison to Innes, so we have no idea how their offence and durability actually compare. You can’t just gauge advantages through pure speculation.

I would if there were any stats. Either way, I'd have a hard time imagining 21 might isn't 2RKOing at the point of Bink's chapter. If not, he's got steel, what have you.


What in the blazes are you talking about? I have no idea what “this sort of performance” is implying.

Perhaps it was a redundant statement.


See, this is why your wilful ignorance of statistical data gets you in trouble. Innes can ORKO reliably with a steel bow, so either Innes has twice Gilliam’s offense virtually all the time, or Gilliam is better even when Innes uses the silver bow.

It's sort of what I'm bringing into question, as I never said Innes had trouble killing things (at least early on), but rather his 1 target a turn does not outdo the potential slayer damage Gilliam could be doing, of which could target more than 1 a turn.

Basically both would be doing the same thing offensively. Innes would be either chipping with iron or killing with something else, why Gilliam would be doing the same (just replace stronger bows with slayers), only difference being that Gilliam being able to attack more than one person a turn as such would be superior.

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lol, gilliam's offense vs innes's. Trust me it's a roflstomp.

Throwing out early promotion for now. Your last argument in favor of that was talking about how Gilliam is still more durable and has more Str than Forde even after early promotion for both, and things along those lines, which is irrelevant to the opportunity cost of early-promoting Gilliam.

Assuming we have L12 Gilliam and L10 Forde at the start of Ch 10, promoting to General allows Gilliam to double exactly 2 enemies that he couldn't before, a Longbow Archer and a Slim Lance loldier. Meanwhile Forde Cav -> GK puts his Spd from 10 to 12. He gains the potential to double Fighters and Brigands in general (7 starting on the map plus some Brigand reinforcements), Iron Bow Archers (3), and the boss. He can also double stuff with heavier weapons now (for example doubling Steel Bow Archers w/ the Javelin, which he couldn't reliably do as a Cavalier). And his gains in concrete durability are likely more significant than Gilliam's, considering how high Gilliam's defense already is.

Anyways.

12 Gilliam: 12.6 Str, 8.8 Skl, 5.4 Spd
Base Innes: 14 Str, 13 Skl, 15 Spd (lol triple spd)

I can tell you from experience that Innes one-rounds all enemies in Ch 10 except the boss and Mercs that get 12 AS. Gilliam on the other hand:

Needs Steel Lance to consistently 2HKO Mercs. Thanks to WTA he's doing similarly to Innes here, unless Innes uses Silver, in which case Innes wins accuracy (though honestly this is a waste of Silver charges), or more significantly if the Merc gets 11 AS, in which case Innes one-rounds. Also, one of them has a Lancereaver, which causes Steel Lance Gilliam to 3HKO with 21% hit, so yeah. But from here it's downhill.

Needs Steel to consistently 2HKO on Fighters, too, and has only ~65% hit now. Plus one of the Fighters has a Killer Axe that can OHKO him. Brigands are the same.

Needs Javelin to counter against Archers. 2-3HKO w/ ~80% hit.

2HKO on Myrmidons (Silver Bow Innes is usually an OHKO).

There's a couple loldiers with Slim Lance that he can't double, that's pretty funny.

Innes is basically doubling his offense in general. They're closer against Mercs, but Innes wins by more than usual against other enemies (Axes, Archers), so w/e.

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I remember Mekkah doing Innes vs Ross and showing that Ross was shitstomping Innes with Iron when Innes had Silver.

Granted, it was lategame, but I say don't be so quick to say that Innes's offense is consistent all game. Then again, Gilliam playing tank with his awesome 8 AS at 11/1 isn't really impressing me at all, never mind that Franz would get much better returns out of an early promotion [2 more mov, about equal gains, he can keep up Seth who he supports easier, etc]

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It's consistently better than Gilliam's all game, I'll put money on that.

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Well I suppose since I just got 180'd, if that's the case, I must ask what is Gilliam doing above Garcia?

Where are those sta-....They were right above me on this very board? *Facedesk* Oh my god I fail so hard. How did I miss that?

Well fine...Well first thing I notice are these guys. Chapter 3

1x Brigand Level 3 (Iron Axe): 23 HP, 15 Atk, 7 AS, 79 Hit, 14 Avo, 4 Def, 0 Res, 1 Crit

1x Brigand Level 4 (Hand Axe): 25 HP, 14 Atk, 7 AS, 64 Hit, 15 Avo, 3 Def, 0 Res, 1 Crit

1x Brigand Level 6 (Steel Axe, Hand Axe): 26 HP, 20/16 Atk, 5/8 AS, 75/70 Hit, 41 Avo, 8 Def, 2 Res, 2 Crit*

These guys just mess Gilliam up. These dudes have WTA on Gilliam too, a might extra. The weakest one there almost 2RKOs Gilliam, the other two do handily. Gilliam has 93 hit naturally with his most accurate current weapon the iron lance. 69 in the least. (That last one, is that a typo? 41 avoid!?). 16 might, WTD reduces the might. He doesn't even 2RKO them back! Last guy is even a 4RKO! He's got 9 avoid, WTD means his avoid is technically -1. This is absolutely hopeless. Even 2 levels giving him HP and a defense, it's still not that shiny. Forget the javelin.

Garcia with his 7 speed, 5 Def and 28 HP looks like a hero in comparison. 3RKOd. Avoid-wise, he's got 17 avoid, so he's at least making them flip coins. Garcia starts with the same might, just no WTD. Aside from superman there, he 2RKOs. Yes, this is ignoring the other enemies basically, such as the thief, the archer and the mercenary, but they're hardly trouble compared to what these 3 dudes do to Gilliam.

Chapter 4 has shitty monsters, but there are a couple problems with Gilliam. He's got 3 base speed. If in his 4 levels he doesn't get a speed, he's not doubling ANY of them. I know for a fact that despite the 0 AS I see there, some of the revenents do proc an AS, and the mogall seems hopeless with his average of 1. Surviving isn't an issue, but Gilliam's offense is. Even with a speed, he might not double. At least Garcia can double the majority no hassle.

Just getting started, not factoring Ross support or Garcia's extra move. For someone who's above Garcia, this is a god awful start.

I would continue, but it seems with stats, half these chapters are missing. Do I even need to? Who honestly believes Gilliam is gonna improve his offense ever, since we know him dying is never gonna be an issue? At least Garcia can go hero for 12 AS. While this might not last forever (though considering I just went through River of Regrets, you might be surprised), at least you could plop a win on Garcia to keep him going. Gilliam's gonna need a lot more than that.

Ugh...I feel ashamed of myself today.

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At least Garcia can go hero for 12 AS.

Read Duessel thread to see how bad 12 AS is.

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This ignores the time when they immediately promote.

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/389780/1/

Looking at your stats for Scorched Sands, 12 AS doubles quite a lot of the units on there that Gilliam's 9-10 AS wouldn't (also, sand terrain for GKs and Generals). Offensively, he's winning for Scorched Sands, River of Regrets (it's mainly druids near Leon and the wyverns from the northwest with the cav reinforcements, as it shouldn't take you long.

However, it seems I was defeated even before I made the topic. I should just stop making actual topics, and merely respond to them at this point.

...Nice to have some FE8 stats though.

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