Fire Emblem Genesis

screw playing, i want to argue about it on the internet


You are not connected. Please login or register

Tana should go to Upper Mid, above Duessel [Eir Route]

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 1 of 1]

though im pretty sure everyone knew that's what I meant anyway, lol Tana>Eph Duessel

Anyway, Tana actually exists from chapters nine through 14, and even right from her joining chapter she's useful right away to help Vanessa kill pirates and stuff. Levelling up isn't really an issue for her either because Eir Route has a fairly decent number of failboat monster chapters.

She doesn't suck for her entire pre-Duessel at all [If she even has a suck period], so Tana racks up more usability before Duessel even exists. But what about when both exist? I'd expect Duessel to trash her. Well...

20/1 FK Tana C Eirika: 35 HP, 17 str, 22 AS, 11 def
base Duessel: 41 HP, 17 str, 12 AS, 17 def

Now, I'll admit that 12 AS doubles pretty consistently here. But Tana still roflstomps Duessel this chapter anyway, and I'll explain why: Desert terrain. Lots of it. Duessel can't move more than two spaces a turn due to awful GK move penalties whereas Tana can just go anywhere. Even without Eirika support, they have similar offense so Duessel doubling doesn't really create a massive combat disparity anyway.

So C16. No more shit terrain for Duessel to wade through. So he must be roflstomping Tana NOW, right?

Again....no. Not since enemy AS takes a huge spike in this chapter.

Don't believe me?

Initial Enemy Stats(Hp/Str/Skl/Spd/Luck/Def/Res):
Knights(All 13 Con)
1-30/12/6/3/4/14/3(LvL 13, Steel Lance, Javelin, Door Key)
2-32/13/7/3/4/14/2(LvL 14, Steel Lance)
3-31/13/7/2/5/14/3(LvL 14, Steel Lance)
4-31/13/6/3/4/14/3(LvL 14, Steel Lance)
5-30/12/7/3/4/13/2(LvL 14, Steel Lance)
6-31/11/7/2/4/14/4(LvL 14, Horseslayer)
7-29/12/7/2/4/13/3(LvL 14, Spear)
8-30/11/7/3/4/14/3(LvL 14, Killer Lance)
Average-30.5/12.1/6.8/2.6/4.0/13.8/2.9(LvL 13.9)

Cavaliers(All LvL 15, 9 Con)
1-35/11/9/11/6/8/2(Turn 5 Left of the Castle, Steel Lance)
2-33/10/9/10/6/9/3(Turn 5 Outside Castle Steps, Steel Lance)
3-34/11/9/10/6/8/4(Turn 5 Outside Castle Steps, Steel Sword)
4-33/12/8/10/5/9/3(Turn 5 Outside Castle Steps, Steel Lance)
Average-33.8/11.0/8.8/10.3/5.8/8.5/3.0

Shamans(All LvL 16, 7 Con)
1-25/11/6/8/4/5/9(Flux)
2-25/11/7/7/4/4/11(Luna)
3-26/12/7/8/3/3/9(Luna)
4-26/11/7/7/3/5/10(Flux)
Average-25.5/11.8/6.8/7.5/3.5/4.3/9.8

Fighters(All LvL 15, 11 Con)
1-37/15/10/9/2/4/2(Iron Axe)
2-35/15/9/9/3/4/3(Iron Axe)
3-36/15/8/9/3/5/2(Poison Axe)
Average-36.0/15.0/9.0/9.0/2.7/4.3/2.3

Mages(Both LvL 13, 6 Con)
1-26/10/9/8/4/4/8(Fire)
2-27/10/8/8/3/4/7(Thunder)
Average-26.5/10.0/8.5/8.0/3.5/4.0/7.5

Mercenaries(Both LvL 14, 9 Con)
1-30/11/16/14/4/7/3(Iron Sword)
2-31/11/14/13/4/7/3(Iron Sword)
Average-30.5/11.0/15.0/13.5/4.0/7.0/3.0

Priests(Both LvL 3, 5 Con)
1-22/3/3/4/3/1/9(Physic)
2-21/3/4/4/2/1/8(Physic, Vulnerary)
Average-21.5/3.0/3.5/4.0/2.5/1.0/8.5

Thieves(Both LvL 16, 6 Con)
1-25/5/9/16/6/3/4(Turn 5 Left of the Castle, Iron Sword, Lockpick)
2-25/3/10/17/7/3/3(Turn 11 Upper Pillars, Irons Sword, Lockpick)
Average-25.0/4.0/9.5/16.5/6.5/3.0/3.5

Great Knights(All 13 Con)
1-38/16/9/10/5/16/8(Turn 5 Lower Left Corner, LvL 3, Steel Sword)
2-39/14/7/11/4/16/9(Turn 5 Lower Left Corner, LvL 3, Steel Axe)
3-41/15/9/10/5/16/7(Turn 5 Lower Left Corner, LvL 4, Silver Lance, Elixir)
4-36/14/9/9/5/16/7(Turn 5 Lower Left Corner, LvL 3, Steel Axe)
5-40/14/8/9/3/17/8(Turn 5 Lower Left Corner, LvL 3, Steel Sword)
6-40/16/9/11/4/16/8(Turn Lower Left Corner, LvL 3, Steel Sword)
Average-39.0/14.8/8.5/10.0/4.3/16.2/7.8

Warriors(All 13 Con)
1-48/19/11/11/5/10/5(LvL 3, Silver Axe)
2-49/19/12/10/3/9/4(LvL 3, Silver Axe)
3-47/19/11/12/5/7/4(LvL 4, Steel Axe)
4-51/19/11/11/3/9/6(LvL 4, Steel Axe)
5-50/19/11/11/3/8/3(LvL 4, Hand Axe, Steel Axe)
Average-49.0/19.0/11.2/11.0/3.8/8.6/4.4(LvL 3.6)

Heroes(All LvL 5, 11 Con)
1-44/15/17/16/7/14/8(Silver Sword)
2-42/16/17/13/7/14/7(Silver Sword, Hero Crest)
3-44/13/19/16/7/13/7(Silver Axe)
Average-43.3/14.7/17.7/15.0/7.0/13.7/7.3

Sages(Both LvL 10, 7 Con)
1-33/20/13/11/5/8/19(Divine, Purge)
2-35/19/14/13/4/8/19(Elfire, Bolting, Red Gem)
Average-34.0/19.5/13.5/12.0/4.5/8.0/19.0

Druids(All 8 Con)
1-32/21/10/11/4/7/15(LvL 4, Luna, Chest Key)
2-33/23/12/12/7/7/15(LvL 8, Luna)
3-31/21/11/11/6/7/15(Turn 12 Upper Pillars, LvL 4, Luna)
4-30/20/11/11/6/7/15(Turn 13 Upper Pillars, LvL 4, Luna)
5-30/22/10/10/5/6/14(Turn 14 Upper Pillars, LvL 4, Luna)
Average-31.2/21.4/10.8/11.0/5.6/6.8/14.8(LvL 4.Cool

Swordmaster(9 Con)-37/11/18/16/6/9/7(LvL 3, Steel Sword)

Orson(12 Con)-51/19/16/15/7/15/11(LvL 13, Spear, Silver Sword)/

That's right. Duessel is getting DOUBLED by some faster enemies, only doubles failboats AS wise like knights, cavs, and MAYBE some mages, which Tana has a big win on btw due to res.

Another major blowout is C18. Tana flies. Duessel doesn't. Flying is pretty much an even bigger deal than C15 because look at all these narrow passages seriously

Sure, a 6 HP/def win matters. Does it compensate for not doubling like 80% of the whole map? No.

Going on to C20, things don't get any better for Duessel at all.

20/9 Tana B Eirika: 41 HP, 22 str, 27 AS, 14 def
20/10 Duessel: 43 HP, 18 str, 13 AS, 18 def

and a fuckload of terrain just makes things worse

Initial Enemy Stats(Hp/Str/Skl/Spd/Luck/Def/Res):
Gargoyles(All LvL 15, 8 Con)
1-34/15/10/13/3/11/4(Javelin, Antitoxin)
2-32/13/9/11/3/10/4(Steel Lance)
3-32/15/9/12/3/10/3(Steel Lance)
4-32/13/8/12/2/10/3(Toxin Lance)
5-33/13/9/13/1/11/2(Turn 4 Upper Right Corner, Javelin, Steel Lance)
6-32/13/8/13/2/10/3(Turn 4 Upper Right Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
7-33/14/9/12/2/10/3(Turn 4 Upper Right Corner, Steel Lance)
8-33/15/10/12/3/11/3(Turn 5 Upper Right Corner, Javelin, Steel Lance)
9-34/14/8/11/2/11/2(Turn 5 Upper Right Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
10-34/13/10/12/3/10/3(Turn 5 Upper Right Corner, Steel Lance)
Average-32.9/13.8/9.0/12.1/2.4/10.4/3.0

Mogalls(All 4 Con)
1-22/9/6/8/6/3/8(LvL 14, Evil Eye)
2-24/11/6/7/5/3/8(LvL 14, Evil Eye)
3-25/10/6/8/5/3/11(Turn 12 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
4-24/11/7/7/5/4/9(Turn 12 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
5-25/9/7/7/6/3/9(Turn 12 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
6-24/10/7/8/6/4/8(Turn 13 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
7-24/10/6/7/6/4/9(Turn 13 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
8-23/11/6/7/6/4/10(Turn 13 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
9-23/11/6/7/6/5/9(Turn 16 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
10-23/9/7/8/5/4/10(Turn 16 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
11-24/11/7/7/5/3/9(Turn 16 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
12-24/9/6/8/5/5/9(Turn 19 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
13-23/10/7/7/6/3/9(Turn 19 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
14-25/11/7/9/5/3/9(Turn 19 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
15-23/10/8/7/5/4/9(Turn 22 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
16-24/10/6/8/5/3/9(Turn 22 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
17-26/11/8/9/5/5/9(Turn 22 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
18-23/11/7/6/5/4/8(Turn 25 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
19-26/11/8/7/5/4/9(Turn 25 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)
20-24/10/7/7/6/3/9(Turn 25 Near Morva, LvL 15, Evil Eye)

Melee Wights(All LvL 3, 9 Con)
1-39/14/11/11/3/8/6(Lancereaver)
2-38/14/11/12/1/10/8(Steel Blade)
3-37/13/11/12/3/9/7(Spear)
4-39/14/12/11/2/9/8(Armorslayer)
5-35/14/10/10/2/9/8(Axereaver)
6-35/14/12/11/2/8/7(Steel Lance)
7-36/14/10/11/3/9/8(Killing Edge)
8-39/14/11/12/2/8/7(Axereaver)
9-38/13/11/11/2/9/8(Steel Blade)
10-36/14/10/10/2/9/8(Javelin)
11-38/13/11/10/2/10/8(Steel Sword)
12-35/13/11/11/2/8/7(Lancereaver)
13-35/12/11/11/3/9/8(Steel Lance)
14-39/15/13/12/3/9/7(Steel Sword)
15-37/14/10/12/2/8/7(Steel Lance)
16-35/13/10/12/3/8/9(Steel Lance)

Maelduins(All 12 Con)
1-43/16/11/12/2/13/8(LvL 4, Swordslayer)
2-43/14/12/11/3/11/7(LvL 4, Short Bow, Elixir)
3-45/16/14/12/3/13/9(LvL 4, Halberd)
4-46/14/11/12/3/13/8(LvL 4, Steel Axe)
5-46/14/12/11/3/13/7(LvL 4, Steel Axe)
6-45/17/12/11/2/13/8(LvL 4, Poison Axe, Vulnerary)
7-43/16/11/13/1/12/9(LvL 4, Steel Axe)
8-45/14/12/12/3/13/8(LvL 4, Swordslayer)
9-45/15/13/12/4/12/9(LvL 4, Steel Axe)
10-43/15/12/12/3/12/8(LvL 4, Steel Axe)
11-47/16/12/11/2/13/9(Turn 15 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
12-46/15/11/12/5/14/8(Turn 15 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Bow)
13-47/17/12/11/3/13/8(Turn 15 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe, Hand Axe)
14-44/15/12/12/2/12/9(Turn 17 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
15-46/16/12/13/3/13/8(Turn 17 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Bow)
16-46/15/13/11/4/12/9(Turn 17 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe, Hand Axe)
17-47/15/12/12/4/14/7(Turn 19 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
18-45/16/14/11/3/13/9(Turn 19 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Bow)
19-44/16/11/12/4/14/9(Turn 19 Western Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe, Hand Axe)

Cyclopses(All 16 Con)
1-65/16/15/13/4/19/7(LvL 6, Tomahawk, Elixir)
2-64/16/14/13/3/19/5(LvL 4, Steel Axe, Antitoxin)
3-64/15/15/13/4/19/7(LvL 4, Halberd)
4-68/17/14/12/2/21/8(Turn 3 Northern Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
5-64/16/15/14/3/19/7(Turn 3 Northern Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
6-66/17/13/12/3/20/7(Turn 4 Northern Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
7-67/16/14/13/2/19/7(Turn 4 Northern Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
8-65/17/15/12/4/20/7(Turn 5 Northern Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)
9-67/17/14/13/3/18/6(Turn 5 Northern Quarter, LvL 5, Steel Axe)

Deathgoyles(All LvL 3, 11 Con)
1-41/17/12/13/2/15/5(Turn 6 Upper Left Corner, Axereaver)
2-43/19/12/12/2/14/6(Turn 6 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
3-42/18/12/14/3/14/5(Turn 6 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance)
4-43/18/13/14/3/14/4(Turn 8 Upper Left Corner, Axereaver)
5-43/18/14/13/3/15/5(Turn 8 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
6-41/17/12/14/3/13/6(Turn 8 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance)
7-41/17/12/14/2/14/6(Turn 10 Upper Left Corner, Axereaver)
8-42/19/13/14/2/15/5(Turn 10 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
9-40/18/12/13/2/14/5(Turn 10 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance)
10-43/18/13/15/3/15/6(Turn 12 Upper Left Corner, Axereaver)
11-41/18/12/15/2/14/6(Turn 12 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
12-40/19/12/15/4/12/6(Turn 12 Upper Left Corner, Steel Lance)
13-41/18/12/14/2/13/5(Turn 16 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
14-43/18/12/13/2/13/5(Turn 16 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
15-40/18/12/15/2/13/7(Turn 16 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
16-42/16/13/15/2/13/5(Turn 16 Map Center, Steel Lance)
17-40/18/13/14/2/14/6(Turn 16 Map Center, Steel Lance)
18-40/19/11/16/2/15/5(Turn 16 Map Center, Steel Lance, Javelin)
19-41/17/12/15/2/12/5(Turn 18 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
20-40/17/13/14/1/13/4(Turn 18 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
21-43/18/13/14/3/13/5(Turn 18 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
22-44/18/12/15/2/14/5(Turn 18 Map Center, Steel Lance)
23-39/18/11/15/2/15/5(Turn 18 Map Center, Steel Lance)
24-42/18/14/14/3/13/5(Turn 18 Map Center, Steel Lance, Javelin)
25-43/18/12/15/3/15/6(Turn 20 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
26-42/18/13/13/2/14/6(Turn 20 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
27-41/17/12/15/2/14/5(Turn 20 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)
28-44/18/12/14/2/12/6(Turn 20 Map Center, Steel Lance)
29-41/18/13/15/3/15/5(Turn 20 Map Center, Steel Lance)
30-42/18/13/16/3/14/5(Turn 20 Map Center, Steel Lance, Javelin)
31-42/15/12/15/3/14/5(Turn 22 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
32-44/18/13/15/3/15/5(Turn 22 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance)
33-43/19/12/14/3/13/5(Turn 22 Lower Left Corner, Steel Lance, Javelin)

Elder Baels(All LvL 5, 15 Con)
1-58/21/11/11/4/13/8(Turn 19 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
2-58/21/11/9/3/15/10(Turn 19 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
3-59/20/12/11/2/14/7(Turn 19 Western Quarter, Lethal Talon)
4-58/21/11/10/3/14/9(Turn 19 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
5-59/20/11/10/3/15/9(Turn 21 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
6-59/20/13/11/3/14/9(Turn 21 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
7-60/19/12/11/3/14/9(Turn 21 Western Quarter, Lethal Talon)
8-58/21/11/12/2/15/9(Turn 21 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
9-58/19/11/10/2/15/8(Turn 23 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
10-59/20/12/11/2/15/8(Turn 23 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
11-56/21/11/11/3/14/9(Turn 23 Western Quarter, Lethal Talon)
12-58/19/12/11/3/15/9(Turn 23 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
13-61/20/12/11/5/14/9(Turn 25 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
14-59/20/12/11/4/16/9(Turn 25 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
15-57/21/12/10/3/14/8(Turn 25 Western Quarter, Lethal Talon)
16-56/20/11/10/2/15/7(Turn 25 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
17-59/22/12/11/3/14/9(Turn 27 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
18-59/19/12/11/4/14/9(Turn 27 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)
19-61/21/12/9/2/14/8(Turn 27 Western Quarter, Lethal Talon)
20-58/20/11/10/3/15/8(Turn 27 Western Quarter, Sharp Claw)

Lethal Talon Stats: 10 Mt/60 Hit/0 Crit/<15 Wt/1 Rng

Gwyllgis(All LvL 5, 8 Con)
1-40/14/22/23/7/10/8(Turn 19 Western Quarter, Hellfang)
2-38/14/21/23/7/9/7(Turn 19 Upper Left Corner, Hellfang)
3-40/13/22/22/6/9/8(Turn 19 Lower Left Corner, Hellfang)
4-38/15/21/20/7/10/8(Turn 21 Western Quarter, Hellfang)
5-38/14/21/22/6/9/8(Turn 21 Upper Left Corner, Hellfang)
6-37/14/21/22/7/8/7(Turn 21 Lower Left Corner, Hellfang)
7-39/14/21/21/7/9/8(Turn 23 Western Quarter, Hellfang)
8-37/14/20/22/7/9/8(Turn 23 Upper Left Corner, Hellfang)
9-37/13/21/19/7/8/8(Turn 23 Lower Left Corner, Hellfang)
10-38/14/22/20/6/9/8(Turn 25 Western Quarter, Hellfang)
11-37/14/21/23/7/9/8(Turn 25 Upper Left Corner, Hellfang)
12-37/13/20/22/6/9/7(Turn 25 Lower Left Corner, Hellfang)
13-39/13/20/22/7/9/8(Turn 27 Western Quarter, Hellfang)
14-39/13/21/22/6/9/8(Turn 27 Upper Left Corner, Hellfang)
15-38/13/21/22/7/10/8(Turn 27 Lower Left Corner, Hellfang)

Hellfang Stats: 13 Mt/80 Hit/0 Crit/<8 Wt/1 Rng

Sniper Wights(All LvL 3, 8 Con)
1-36/14/13/9/2/9/8(Longbow)
2-38/13/13/10/3/8/8(Steel Bow)
3-39/14/14/10/3/8/7(Steel Bow)
4-38/14/13/11/2/8/8(Longbow)
5-36/13/13/9/2/10/8(Steel Bow)
6-38/13/12/10/3/8/5(Steel Bow)

Arch Mogalls(All LvL 5, 5 Con)
1-30/21/12/10/6/6/14(Shadowshot, Crimson Eye)
2-30/22/11/10/4/5/14(Shadowshot, Crimson Eye)
3-29/21/11/9/6/5/15(Shadowshot, Crimson Eye)
4-29/20/12/10/6/6/15(Shadowshot, Crimson Eye)

Crimson Eye Stats: 14 Mt/70 Hit/13 Wt/5 Crit/1-2 Rng

Gorgons(All 11 Con)
1-32/26/12/11/9/8/20(LvL 7, Stone, Demon Surge)
2-31/25/12/11/7/8/19(LvL 7, Stone, Demon Surge)
3-32/27/10/11/7/8/20(LvL 6, Stone, Demon Surge)

Riev(7 Con)-52/15/22/20/11/17/20(LvL 17, Aura)

Morva(25 Con)-66/27/21/14/8/24/19(LvL 18, Wretched Air)

Wretched Air Stats: 10 Mt/100 Hit/<25 Wt/0 Crit/1-2 Rng/Effect(Ignores Def/Res)
Gives these stat Bonuses(already factored into his stats): +10 Str/+10 Skl/+20 Def/+10 Res


tl;dr version:

Things Duessel doubles:

Some weighed down Wights, Maelduins, Mogalls, maybe some weighed down Gargoyles

Things Tana doubles: Everything, Gwilgi included although she might need to use a light weapon

What does Duessel have to show for getting roflstomped in offense and mobility? 2 HP and 4 def. I'd agree it's kind of debatable if Tana's offense/mobility wins weren't so massive, since 2 HP/4 def can change some things, but against all of those plus being helpful earliergame while he was off with Ephraim in another dimension killing shit on Auto-Battle, not helping us at all? No.

"but Duessel can killer axe now lol BB that shit doesn't matter"

Mekkah gave me this shit on IRC (which is why I'm refrencing it) and told me it was a Vykan argument. Frankly, I'm astonished two of the more intelligent individuals on this forum would use absurd arguments like this. brb guys gonna argue Dorcas to Top tier cuz he has Killer axe and full crit supports and can crit so guys like Dart doubling 100% of the time doesn't matter cuz we must has the INSTA BLICK POWER which totally raeps killing stuff in one round gauranteed never mind that it's not 100% reliable and I do balls for damage if I miss the crit i don't want to take a counterlololololololol yeah no get the fuck out of here, you two are big boys and you should know better. This is the worst crithyping I've seen since Grandjackal tried to argue 13/1 SM Gordin>Kashim because of his awesome 7 str doubling with Killing Edges.

Plus, Duessel actually has hit problems with the damn thing, believe it or not.

12 skill x2 =24, 8 lck/2= 4 hit +65 Killer Axe hit=93 hit

Oh sure, he'll do fine on lances, but any time any other factors come into play, like WTN, WTD, terrain, etc, things start to get shaky. WTD is especially a problem because those melee Wights pretty much just use swords. And that assload of terrain I mentioned? That's another way it can screw Duessel over.

And if you guys want to play the crithyping game, fine, guess who else can?

Tana Killer Lance: 49 crit x2
Duessel Killer Axe: 36 crit x1, maybe add in a bit more for Eph support

So now not even critbombing works for Duessel.

So if you (I'm moreso referring to Mekkah, I'm willing to take Vykan's critbomb argument as a simple miscalc) have a problem with this, I really want to see a lot more than "lol killer axe", "lol durability lead", "lol nobody cares that you'd rather have offense/mobility over def"

anyway why is there a tier gap between them when Tana is quite easily the better unit?

View user profile
If Tana can ORKO alot of stuff in Ch 11, I'll agree with you. She's forced on Ch 9 so w/e, but I know her combat is definitely inferior against Ch 10's human enemies. Ch 12 should be w/e since it has shitloads of impassable terrain to help Tana's case and not many PCs consistently ORKO those enemies, and then you've got two Whips by Ch 13, so at worst, early promotion can set her up from there. I'm inclined to agree with you already, but seeing that Tana is barely a negative in Ch 11 (or not a negative at all) would probably clinch it for me. Too lazy to look at stats for that atm, maybe I'll do so later.

View user profile
I was going to complain about you and negative utility, because even Tana not ORKOing>Duessel not existing.

Then I realized I could prove it better like this. 11 and 12 are consecutive Monster only chapters, which means shit enemy stats.

View user profile
Yeah, that's why I asked about ORKOing in Ch 11, since those skellies and zombies have pretty garbage stats. Ch 12's monsters are actually hard to ORKO, which also works in Tana's favor. She's only really doing bad if most others are ORKOing and she's not.

View user profile
I agree with this. However:

"but Duessel can killer axe now lol BB that shit doesn't matter"

Mekkah gave me this shit on IRC (which is why I'm refrencing it) and told me it was a Vykan argument. Frankly, I'm astonished two of the more intelligent individuals on this forum would use absurd arguments like this. brb guys gonna argue Dorcas to Top tier cuz he has Killer axe and full crit supports and can crit so guys like Dart doubling 100% of the time doesn't matter cuz we must has the INSTA BLICK POWER which totally raeps killing stuff in one round gauranteed never mind that it's not 100% reliable and I do balls for damage if I miss the crit i don't want to take a counterlololololololol yeah no get the fuck out of here, you two are big boys and you should know better. This is the worst crithyping I've seen since Grandjackal tried to argue 13/1 SM Gordin>Kashim because of his awesome 7 str doubling with Killing Edges.

Come on man. You're misrepresenting any argument I made about killer axes on Duessel so much that it's sickening.

For example, here's a snippet from my Gerik vs Duessel debate:

For instance, 53 vs 46% is hardly much of a difference in crit rate whereas before Gerik was critting more then twice as much. Then, if both double with their killer weapons, that amasses to 78 vs 61%, at which point Gerik's leads starts mattering less since Duessel is critting fairly reliably to begin with.

So basically, Gerik wins offence in the very rare case where Duessel neither gained spd nor has access to a zanbato, horseslayer or halberd. And even if he wins, it's against about 26% of the map's enemies (Duessel can use a killer axe against the 44% of enemies he doesn't double, giving him roughly a 40% chance of killing any of them). Otherwise, Duessel wins since he can ORKO generals, great knights, better damage Selena, etc, than Gerik can, and he has immediate access to 1-2 range if needed. Oh, and Duessel's giving outgoing offence with his supporters.

The meaning should be perfectly clear. Duessel's ability to use a killer axe will always allow him to close an offensive disadvantage he has against another character, not completely erase it or whatever absurd accusation you're making.

Please try to understand what the hell me and Mekkah's argument is before strawmanning and pulling an ad hominen.

View user profile
i don't feel like discussing negative utility with CATS because that always leads to flame wars slash vicious circles so


Come on man. You're misrepresenting any argument I made about killer axes on Duessel so much that it's sickening.

<~Mekkah> vykan made a good summary of duessel's offense
<~Mekkah> iirc he can still kill over 3/4 of what he faces just with killer axes
<@BBLade> okay
<@BBLade> I'd rather have Tana kill something all of the time
<@BBLade> than Duessel killing something 3/4ths of the time
<~Mekkah> as int would say, "what you'd rather have" is irrelevant

What am I misrepresenting here? Mekkah is basically arguing that 36% [actually less due to hit] is a bigger chance to kill something than 100%. 3/4ths is also a ridiculous exaggeration, Duessel does not critical 75% of the time [I should have pointed that out in the chat, it went over my head at the time]





The meaning should be perfectly clear. Duessel's ability to use a killer axe will always allow him to close an offensive disadvantage he has against another character, not completely erase it or whatever absurd accusation you're making.

Again, 36% as opposed to 100%.

You're right, he closed the offensive gap. And guess what? He's still getting roflstomped in that catagory.

That's about as useful as saying Marisa can use Iron Blades to close the offense gap versus Franz, and pretending that "lol killer axe" is a proper refutation to everything I illustrated as to how Tana's leads stomp Duessels is really insulting, tbh.



Last edited by sPortsman on Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:05 am; edited 2 times in total

View user profile
If I can add one thing to the argument, it's that Tana has more than enough room to fill the B slot for Eirika, since no one else is around to do so other than Forde (same affinity, speed, practically same joining chapter since Forde starts clear across the map in his "joining chapter" )

So just another miinor tidbit in Tana's favor, she's able to help at least one other person on the field with her existence.

EDIT: Whoops, missed the C Eirika in the comparison ^^;; My bad.

I guess what I'm saying here is I agree with this.

View user profile
What am I misrepresenting here?

This:

<~Mekkah> iirc he can still kill over 3/4 of what he faces just with killer axes

The implication is that Duessel doesn't lose offense by much. Now if Mekkah is arguing that Duessel's winning, then it's because of other factors, such as if we're talking about Eph route Duessel. I can't tell you what Mekkah argued, but I'm sure there's more to it than that IRC snippet.

3/4ths is also a ridiculous exaggeration, Duessel does not critical 75% of the time [I should have pointed that out in the chat, it went over my head at the time]

It's not a critical hit %age, it's a ORKO %age. You have to account for all the times where Duessel ORKOes normally with a killer axe or other weapon. Note that he supports Ephraim, which means he can access the convoy virtually all the time.

Again, 36% as opposed to 100%.

Those numbers are meaningless because you're ignoring so many factors. First of all, Tana isn't ORKOing 100% of the time. You might have Duessel and Tana tying in str in your little comparison, but that doesn't show the mt advantage Duessel has through axes, or how he can use silvers in 3 weapon types to Tana's 1, and has all sorts of options against armors/wyverns/etc. So, when you look at the mt difference properly, you'll see that Duessel ORKOes slow, tankier enemies more consistently than she does, and also has better 1-2 range offense when both double.

Speaking of doubling, whenever Duessel does it, his crit chance jumps to 59%. Yes, he runs into major doubling issues in 17 and 19, but there are ways to work around that, namely brave weapons and S rank weapons (particularly Garm).

Let me remind you that I agree with your OP argument, so don't start interpreting what I just said as Duessel winning offense, because you seem to like that strange assumption. Please don't make it a habit to misinterpret an argument I didn't even make (Mekkah made it on my behalf, and I don't know what else he said).

View user profile
i don't feel like discussing negative utility with CATS because that always leads to flame wars slash vicious circles so

Your goal seems to be to casually blow off every point brought up against your post, even when the posters agree with your OP. I'm quite confused with this attitude.

Instead of "negative utility," let me put it like this. Tana starts off in a hole, combat-wise. She's underlevelled and weak. I'm not trying to rap her for not being on the best possible team, rather, I'm questioning whether or not her combat sucks for any meaningful period of time, similar to how Ross is doing earlygame. I'm pretty sure we can both agree that sucking like that is significant, regardless of the specifics of your opinions on "negative utility" or w/e.

View user profile

Mekkah

avatar
Admin
What am I misrepresenting here? Mekkah is basically arguing that 36% [actually less due to hit] is a bigger chance to kill something than 100%.

Mekkah gave me this shit on IRC (which is why I'm refrencing it) and told me it was a Vykan argument. Frankly, I'm astonished two of the more intelligent individuals on this forum would use absurd arguments like this. brb guys gonna argue Dorcas to Top tier cuz he has Killer axe and full crit supports and can crit so guys like Dart doubling 100% of the time doesn't matter cuz we must has the INSTA BLICK POWER which totally raeps killing stuff in one round gauranteed never mind that it's not 100% reliable and I do balls for damage if I miss the crit i don't want to take a counterlololololololol yeah no get the fuck out of here, you two are big boys and you should know better. This is the worst crithyping I've seen since Grandjackal tried to argue 13/1 SM Gordin>Kashim because of his awesome 7 str doubling with Killing Edges.

No, that is not what I am saying. I refuse to address anything you say if you're going to debate that way. Learn the difference between "the offense win for Tana is smaller than you are implying" and "Duessel is winning offense".

Regardless, I don't think Tana should be a tier up on Duessel.

View user profile http://fegenesis.forummotion.com
Just to point something out Mekkah,I think he just wants Tana over Duessel,If he wanted a tier difference he'd be arguing her into High tier.

Anyway,i agree with the OP.
Flying is always an advantage,but compared to Duessel,who has the worst movement type aside from maybe generals,flight is a massive win.
Combined with the extra availability and the fact that is doesn;t take Tana too long to get out of the hole,Duessel would need to be Roflstomping her combat to pull a win,which he isn't.

View user profile
The implication is that Duessel doesn't lose offense by much.


But Duessel DOES lose offense by a shitton.


It's not a critical hit %age, it's a ORKO %age. You have to account for all the times where Duessel ORKOes normally with a killer axe or other weapon. Note that he supports Ephraim, which means he can access the convoy virtually all the time.

ALl the times he ORKOs normally? You mean on what, four enemy types max that everybody doubles anyway? alolol Mogalls?

Why does the convoy help him at all if he can't ORKO stuff consistentlty at all without shit like Garm, which has 15 rounds to it's name?

Those numbers are meaningless because you're ignoring so many factors. First of all, Tana isn't ORKOing 100% of the time. You might have Duessel and Tana tying in str in your little comparison, but that doesn't show the mt advantage Duessel has through axes

Often accounting to a 1 mt lead. So what, really?

you'll see that Duessel ORKOes slow, tankier enemies more consistently than she does, and also has better 1-2 range offense when both double.

Show me how 2 exta damage is a notable difference, and fine. (Okay, maybe it's more with Eph support)

Speaking of doubling, whenever Duessel does it, his crit chance jumps to 59%. Yes, he runs into major doubling issues in 17 and 19, but there are ways to work around that, namely brave weapons and S rank weapons (particularly Garm).

Again: Duessel doesn't DA anything unless they're really really shithole suck like Gargoyles or Wights or Mogalls or Steel Lance cavs or some shit that everybody and their mother doubles also. Besides, if Duessel doubles something around the statistical prowess of failboats like those, chances are he's ORKOing it, so Crit's irrelevant anyway.



so don't start interpreting what I just said as Duessel winning offense, because you seem to like that strange assumption.

I never said that's what you said [because that's not really what I'm arguing with you about anyway]

Please don't make it a habit to misinterpret an argument I didn't even make (Mekkah made it on my behalf, and I don't know what else he said).


It WAS your argument. Mekkah was quite clear on his reference.

Learn the difference between "the offense win for Tana is smaller than you are implying" and "Duessel is winning offense".

Okay, it is smaller than I'm implying. It's like two centimeters smaller than I'm implying. Even with "lol Killer Axe", the offense gap went from "fucking huge win in Tana's favor" to "fucking huge win in Tana's favor". You might as well not have bought it up because it really doesn't change anything.

Oh, and thanks for citing 17 and 19 as Duessel doubling trouble spots, thanks, now I don't have to prove that Tana wins pretty much the entire time both exist.

CATS, I'll get back to you in a bit.

View user profile

Mekkah

avatar
Admin
Okay, then let's look how enormous Tana's offense win is.

First, you only mentioned half their stats, and Tana grew 17 levels in 6 maps. I'd say she can grow 2 levels in ch9, ch10 and ch15, and 1.5 in the other four chapters, which means she would be 16/1. And before you go "big fucking deal this is a small difference", it matters a lot when Tana is borderline on things. That, and this means she is only promoting when Duessel shows up for the direct comparison. If she promotes earlier, she hurts her EXP gain.

16/1 Tana (C Eirika): 15.4 atk, 21.7 AS, 40.0 hit, 11.7 crit - - 58.6 avo, 32.8 hp, 10.4 def, 12.0 res, 17.2 critavo
Killer Lance: 25.4 atk, 18.7 AS - - 52.6 avo (~42% crit)
Silver Lance: 29.4 atk, 17.7 AS - - 50.6 avo
Javelin: 21.4 atk, 16.7 AS - - 48.6 avo
Horseslayer: 22.4 atk, 14.7 AS - - 44.6 avo (36.4 atk on eff)
Heavy Spear: 24.4 atk, 13.7 AS - - 42.6 avo (42.4 atk on eff)

base Duessel: 41 HP, 17 str, 12 spd, 17 def, 32 avo
Killer Axe: 28 atk, 36% crt (~60% to crit once on a double)
Silver Axe: 32 atk
Hammer/Halberd: 27 atk (47 on eff)
Brave Axe: 27 atk
Garm: 37 atk (57 on eff), 17 AS
Hand Axe: 24 atk

Now, the enemy stats you posted but barely elaborated on. From Ch16:

Knights
Average-30.5/12.1/6.8/2.6/4.0/13.8/2.9(LvL 13.9)

Offense:
~30-31 hp and 14 def

Duessel can clean KO often with just a Killer Axe (2x15, and he can str proc), but any stronger weapon like Silver or Hammer will do.

Tana needs an extra str proc over Duessel here to KO with Silver. Heavy Spear will do the trick, though she will not OHKO, so she'll still take a counter, and have massively reduced avo. And Hammers are buyable while Heavy Spears aren't. She has about ~40% crit with Killer after taking luk into account, so that's still a 64% chance of killing, and a 40% chance to crit on the first hit. More if she hits S lances, but less if Eirika is not in range, which is plausible since she still has 5 mov at this point versus Tana's 8 + flight. Never mind ranged combat: Javelin!Tana is having trouble consistently 2RKOing, while Hand Axe!Duessel is 3HKOing, so easy 2RKO.

Defense:
Steel Lance ones have ~24 atk and ~98 hit.

Duessel is getting 7RKO'd (6/41) with an axe equipped. At like 52% hit. Scary.

Tana is getting 3RKO'd (14/33). Reduced to 5hp after two hits. With KL equipped, she's facing ~41% real. ~7% CoD after 3 attacks. ~60% real with Heavy Spear equipped, btw.

Cavaliers
Average-33.8/11.0/8.8/10.3/5.8/8.5/3.0

Offense:
34 hp and 8-9 def. One has 9-10 AS, but 3/4 have lolSteel Lances, so Duessel is guaranteed to double them.

If Duessel can kill Knights, god knows what he does to these guys. He can get the Steel Sword one with a Horseslayer (41 atk with it), or just 2RKO it.

Tana can kill with Silver, but Silver is not buyable yet. Killer, she is extremely borderline (2x16 or 2x17), and Eirika may not be in range. Javelin is obviously a 2RKO, and with reduced avo. Horseslayer has that issue as well.

Defense:
The Steel Lance ones have about the same offense as Knights: 3HKOing Tana with their ~100 base hit. Slightly less atk, so Duessel is more invincible, but it doesn't change the #RKO for Tana. The Steel Sword one doesn't do anything to her, I guess.

Shamans, Priests, Thieves and Mages are too weak to bother with.

Fighters, Duessel needs a Spd proc or Speedwing to double, but Tana needs to switch to her E swords because if she doesn't, her 33 hp/10-11 def gets 3HKO'd by 24+1 atk Iron Axes. If she gets hit by the Poison Axe and an Iron Axe, she might even die to poison, lol.

Mercenaries
Average-30.5/11.0/15.0/13.5/4.0/7.0/3.0

Offense:
30-31 hp and 7 def. And 13-14 spd, so I guess Duessel isn't doubling. Tana manages with Killer Lance (18-19 vs 13-14), but usually not with Javelin or Silver Lance. Duessel still 2HKOs cleanly, and per Merc has a ~35% chance to crit with Killer Lance.

Defense:
Their atk is too lulzy to care.

Now, the promoted enemies which you love to chime about. Let's take a look.

Great Knights
Average-39.0/14.8/8.5/10.0/4.3/16.2/7.8

Offense:
38-41 hp, 16-17 def, 9-11 spd

Well, they have ~10 AS if not weighed down, which makes Duessel double the Steel Axe ones already (lose 2 AS). The 9 spd ones also get doubled by Spd Proc Duessel, and if he gets a Speedwing he doubles all of them. But I won't go too in depth on Speedwing, since it is a pretty valuable resource.

Hammer/Halberd Duessel has 47 atk, which leaves them with single digit HP, or nearly so for ones with swords, but he can also use lance variants for that. KL!Tana with her 25 atk is doing 2x9 with WTN, 36 with a crit, so she needs 2 crits to KO, at which point we're looking at ~16% chance per round of combat. At which point we might as well hope Duessel procs str and crits with Killer Axe, as this OHKOs the lower end ones. I suppose Tana can try the Heavy Spear again, but that's going to get her killed - check her avo rates with it...

Defense:
~15 str, and either Steel Sword or Steel Axe (and one with Silver Lance).

Steel Sword (23 atk, 92 hit, 22/77 with WTD, 24/107 with WTA)
Duessel is getting 6RKO'd (maybe like 5HKO if he has an axe). Tana is taking 11-12/33 dmg, so 3RKO. Granted, at 12.15% real each.

Steel Axe (26 atk, 84 hit, 25/69 with WTD, 27/99 with WTA).
Duessel is taking 8/41, so 6RKO, at WTN. Tana has the choice to go with Iron Sword or some lance. An Iron Sword lets her face only 4.65% real, but suffice it to say her offense becomes a total joke. A Killer Lance gets her 2HKO'd at ~43% real. Whether you take the red or the blue pill, you are going the shitter.

Silver Lance (29 atk, 92 hit)
Infinitely superior Steel Axe dude. Duessel is getting 4HKO'd even with an axe equipped, but he's only facing about 41%, while Tana gets 2HKO'd easily, at ~31% real.

I'm going through a bit faster now...

Warriors are, well, promoted Fighters. Or really quite similar to Great Knights with an axe. Tana either gets 2HKO'd at scary hit rates, or 2HKO'd with non threatening hit rates while using a weak sword. Duessel probably can't double these without Garm, though.

Heroes are interesting. The 16 AS ones do double base Duessel (one str proc and it's gone, and one of them gets weighed down), but their 28 atk is still doing like 2x10 to Duessel, and 1x17-18 to Tana...so both are getting 2RKO'd. And Tana can't double 16 AS enemies. The Swordmaster falls under this category I guess, except he has like 3 less str than the Heroes, so 6 less dmg to Duessel.

Sages, both will kill ORKO them, and since they likely have their LRTs equipped durability doesn't matter all that much. And they have 11-13 spd anyhow, so with their Divine/Elfire equipped, Duessel likely still doubles. Druids are even slower than this.

Do I have to analyze Ch19 more closely as well, or are you just going to ignore 80% of my point again to better your case?

View user profile http://fegenesis.forummotion.com
While I agree with Tana>Eir. Duessel, I'd like to point out that you're underrating Duessel's chapter 15. He can stay down south and deal with those enemies so that Eirika's group doesn't. In fact, IIRC, he can ORKO Valter with the Dragon Axe. Not positive of that, though. Although I am sure that Dragon Axe Duessel is one of the best candidates for fighting Valter.

@Mekkah- One STR proc wouldn't fix that problem. In FE8, AS is based off of CON, not STR.

View user profile

Mekkah

avatar
Admin
Typo. I meant Spd, not Str.

View user profile http://fegenesis.forummotion.com
First, you only mentioned half their stats, and Tana grew 17 levels in 6 maps. I'd say she can grow 2 levels in ch9, ch10 and ch15, and 1.5 in the other four chapters, which means she would be 16/1.

You know, you could have said this instead of trying this killer axe shit and I would have been perfectly fine with it. Why on earth you didn't object to Tana's level when I first posted their levels is beyond me, but it clearly makes a notable difference, so fine.

Now, the enemy stats you posted but barely elaborated on.


Duessel doubles Knights, Cavs, Shamans, and weighed down Steel Axe GKs/fighters IF he procs a speed [Him proccing spd is unlikely since i dont think he's even going to get a level simply because his level is so damned high], Tana doubles everything else with similar str [before you pointed out 20/1 isn't a good level for her] wtf did I need to elaborate on? If I post lvl 5 Journeyman Ross against base level Seth, I shouldn't have to elaborate on why Seth is better. I listed the ONLY three enemy types Duessel was able to double and used enemy stats to back it up, don't you dare fucking tell me I didn't elaborate on anything.

Or do I need to explain how only doubling three enemy types is bad, now? Why don't you just ask me to explain why ORKOing is better than 2RKOing next time?


Do I have to analyze Ch19 more closely as well, or are you just going to ignore 80% of my point again to better your case?

I'm not the one who tried to argue that Duessel having 36% chance to crit [actually less, I forgot to point out that enemy luck actually exists in this game] as opposed to Tana cleanly ORKOing just about everything she could double [before 20/1 was debunked] with much less reliance on crits closed the offense gap to the point where Duessel's durability win [which was, again, mitigated by Tana's better stats at 20/1] prevailed over offense that was ten times more consistent plus flier utility on maps like C17, 18, and 20, don't give me any shit about ignoring YOUR point.

This whole thing could have been avoided if you told me that I had Tana too high levelled instead of hyping Killer Axe, you know.

View user profile

Sponsored content


View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 1]

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum