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So there is to be expected turncounts, eh?

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1 So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:05 pm

Well, should let you all know something. *Ahem* Cain and Abel might be in trouble.

Why? Well, to double consistantly, the level Abel, the faster of all the cavs, needs to be level 15. He is fine, however. C rank is easy for him, forging a Bane will allow him some of the earliest OHKO cav slaying outside of Hardin. But, that thing will break eventually, nor is he the only one who can use it.

Cain however, has no real excuse outside of dismounting and putting his sword rank to use. Otherwise, he's able without the sword rank who has to wait all the way until level 17 to hit that 14 AS.

What does this say about Kain? Well, the difference between him and Matthis until basically promotion levels is that Matthis with his D lance base is having a far easier time getting to C than Kain is, and eventually Matthis will get a durability lead. Basically, Kain's only winning by 2 Str otherwise. Outside of speed letting Cain not suck while dismounted, there is very little difference between Cain and Matthis until Cain hits level 17, which is an insane amount of time with them being similar.

So, if we're gonna be serious about this, Cain being as high as he is better be based on him being a myrmidon. Otherwise, I could easily see him dropping under Ogma.

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What does this have to do with turn count, again?

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Against 8 Def Cav w/Lance

12/0 Myrmy Kain w/Steel: Does 7x2 for 14 damage
12/0 Cav Kain w/Steel: Does 13 damage

Big difference. Not to mention Myrmy's much worse durability, lack of Ridersbane (this is HUGE), lack of weapon versatility, lack of movement, lack of 2 range (this is also huge), Cav destroying Myrm in damage once he can double, Kain definitely doesn't want to go Myrm. Just like essentially every other character in the game.

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What this has to do with turn count is that it means Cain will not be hitting level 17 until a good while in the future. Generally, I have people in an efficient run promoting at the bridge, chapter 18. So basically, that's waiting all the way till chapter 15, which is an embaressing long time. The game's only got 10 more chapters, sans gaidens left.

IOS wrote:Against 8 Def Cav w/Lance

12/0 Myrmy Kain w/Steel: Does 7x2 for 14 damage
12/0 Cav Kain w/Steel: Does 13 damage

Big difference. Not to mention Myrmy's much worse durability, lack of Ridersbane (this is HUGE), lack of weapon versatility, lack of movement, lack of 2 range (this is also huge), Cav destroying Myrm in damage once he can double, Kain definitely doesn't want to go Myrm. Just like essentially every other character in the game.

Why use steel swords when you can use killers?

You're also underestimating the trouble of getting Cain to that rank of C, or even D for that matter. You're basically claiming that he's using spears early on in the 3 starting chapters, which frankly is stupid. You're just letting him be easier to hit along with giving him a real chance of missing. You're purposefully impeding yourself when you don't have to. Why go through the work when myrm has immediate results now?

Besides, all this would do in the long run is give him a bolster on his speed later on (his defense went down by 5%, so terrible). You could just promote him to paladin, problem solved.

Normally, I can get Cain to C by chapter 4, so B by let's say Pyarthi doesn't seem too out of control. I'd say more available silver swords let's him be a bit less dependent on the Ridersbane, of which several people would be using just as well.

Like Matthis, except he gets the rank earlier, or at least with greater ease.

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What this has to do with turn count is that it means Cain will not be hitting level 17 until a good while in the future. Generally, I have people in an efficient run promoting at the bridge, chapter 18. So basically, that's waiting all the way till chapter 15, which is an embaressing long time. The game's only got 10 more chapters, sans gaidens left.
This still doesn't account for turn count because this is a huge generalization rather than actual proof that efficient play is hurting Abel & Kain's levels.

It's also proof that you didn't even look at IOS' levels anyway.

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FE3_Player wrote:
What this has to do with turn count is that it means Cain will not be hitting level 17 until a good while in the future. Generally, I have people in an efficient run promoting at the bridge, chapter 18. So basically, that's waiting all the way till chapter 15, which is an embaressing long time. The game's only got 10 more chapters, sans gaidens left.
This still doesn't account for turn count because this is a huge generalization rather than actual proof that efficient play is hurting Abel & Kain's levels.

It's also proof that you didn't even look at IOS' levels anyway.

IOS's levels ignore that the moment Cain can change classes, he can go Myrmidon for killer edge, while Cain (if you weren't purposefully hurting yourself the last 3 chapters) still is in E rank.

Then it ignores possible silver sword use, more than 1 opportunity to crit, the fact he's still doing more damage.

And so what about his durability? 2RKOd is still 2RKOd.

All keeping him cav does is make him worse than he could be just for Ridersbane, of which he's hardly necessary to put such a weapon to use.

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Okay, but you still haven't looked at IOS' levels.

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FE3_Player wrote:Okay, but you still haven't looked at IOS' levels.

Why, pray tell, must I care, when it seems to be acting like Cain at that point is incapable of using silver swords?

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I hope you're not seriously suggesting that it's easier for Myrm Cain to take kills, when he gets countered by goddamn everything.

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10 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:38 pm

Why, pray tell, must I care, when it seems to be acting like Cain at that point is incapable of using silver swords?
Because your argument hinges on...
What this has to do with turn count is that it means Cain will not be hitting level 17 until a good while in the future. Generally, I have people in an efficient run promoting at the bridge, chapter 18.
When IOS has Cain at level 12.. On Chapter 10.

What you are saying is that Cain is completely incapable of gaining six levels in 8-9 Chapters.

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11 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:49 pm

Interceptor wrote:I hope you're not seriously suggesting that it's easier for Myrm Cain to take kills, when he gets countered by goddamn everything.

That much may be true, but it's also true that forging (now allowed), makes to allow myrms to easier bring enemies down without the need of a rare single weapon that doesn't become buyable until way later in the game, of which that one weapon he won't even have the chance to use any time soon.


When IOS has Cain at level 12.. On Chapter 10.

What you are saying is that Cain is completely incapable of gaining six levels in 8-9 Chapters.

Ok, so what does this have to do with...anything I said?

He's not doubling at this point as a cav, so he's still dependent on the 1 weapon that he has to share with others, or I could just forge him a sword and call it a day. Level 17 is the magic number he has to hit, his levels don't seem to say he's level 17 by chapter 10.

I didn't disagree with his levels at that time. But what I am saying, is that IOS left out many factors out of myrm Cain's performance at that time.

Unless you're saying hegets to level 17 faster. 5 chapters from 10 has a gaiden, that's somewhere in 14. I was a chapter off, is that a crime? It changes little.

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12 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:53 pm

I didn't disagree with his levels at that time. But what I am saying, is that IOS left out many factors out of myrm Cain's performance at that time.

Myrm doubling only deals 1 more damage from a single hit with Steel Lance.

What other factors do you need?

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13 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:58 pm

Ok, so what does this have to do with...anything I said?
Absolutely everything. You cannot assume that Cain has issues gaining levels as a Social Knight under new turn counts when it's proven through hard, human tested facts that he's doing fine.

Doubling is nice, but only if you are actually capable of doing damage, which Swordfighters do not do without crits.

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14 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:06 pm

sPortsman wrote:
I didn't disagree with his levels at that time. But what I am saying, is that IOS left out many factors out of myrm Cain's performance at that time.

Myrm doubling only deals 1 more damage from a single hit with Steel Lance.

What other factors do you need?

Yet forging a sword rewards greater profit. Adding crit, due to doubling it gives him more opportunities than if he didn't double. Adding more might to a normal sword makes him far less dependent on needing something like Ridersbane, and makes it easier for others to leech kills off him, as a myrm is far more likely to bring something down to single digits than one who doesn't double due to forging.

Then, there are more readily available weapons to the swordsman than the spearman that due to more consistant doubling would put to better use than the non-doubling counterpart, like the silver sword and killer edge, things he could be using better as soon as chapter 4.


Absolutely everything. You cannot assume that Cain has issues gaining levels as a Social Knight under new turn counts when it's proven through hard, human tested facts that he's doing fine.

He may be gaining levels, but he's overshadowed while he's doing it due to shit spear rank, unless you're admitting to being stupid in using him early on. Anyone can keep a level if they're leeching kills.


Doubling is nice, but only if you are actually capable of doing damage, which Swordfighters do not do without crits.

From what I see, their player and enemy phase would be the same. The difference is in weapon selection, of which early on the sword has more options to choose from. Is your problem in that Cain as a cav with steel lances has an easy time getting already weakened kills?

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15 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:17 pm

Yet forging a sword rewards greater profit.

Why would a generic sword be forged over Ridersbane/Rapier/WingSpear?

Adding crit

No.

Even just 5 crit on Steel costs like 2.6k. And you don't get nearly enough criticals out of it to justify the pricetag. Doubling or not.

killer edge, things he could be using better as soon as chapter 4.


You have a thing for exaggerating how awesome doubling with Killing Edge is. Stop. A 36% chance to crit as opposed to 20% is still pretty unreliable.

Oh, and that Silver Sword in C4 is the only one you get all the way up to C10, so Cain's (very slightly) better performance with that lasts for like 10 rounds.

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16 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:21 pm

He may be gaining levels, but he's overshadowed while he's doing it due to shit spear rank, unless you're admitting to being stupid in using him early on. Anyone can keep a level if they're leeching kills.
The only characters that overshadow Kain in lance rank are Abel, Hardin (questionable), Sheeda, and Doga.

From what I see, their player and enemy phase would be the same.
Nope. If you aren't out damaging a single hit when you're doubling, then doubling is useless. For the same damage in a single hit, you gain things like:

- Durability
- Weapon Level bonuses
- Ridersbane (which is similar to having 100% crit)
- 1-2 Range Javelin
- Forging for the above two weapons

This means that Kain will have to work for his Lance rank, but the trade off will be far superior than sacrificing absolutely everything good about you just to double and rely on crits.

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17 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:36 pm

sPortsman wrote:
Why would a generic sword be forged over Ridersbane/Rapier/WingSpear?

Maybe because early on you have 1 of each, and plenty of time to forge other things. Why forge a generic spear when I can forge a generic sword and get a greater return on my investment?


No.

Even just 5 crit on Steel costs like 2.6k. And you don't get nearly enough criticals out of it to justify the pricetag. Doubling or not.

Forging the killer edge? Hell, foge a bit of might on the silver sword and you can decimate Pyarthi is you wanted. Find me a lancer who can even possibly pull this off.


You have a thing for exaggerating how awesome doubling with Killing Edge is. Stop. A 36% chance to crit as opposed to 20% is still pretty unreliable.

Now why would we ignore that the possibility is always there when every other weapon has a far less reliable? We can't ignore that this thing will blow people away from time to time.


The only characters that overshadow Kain in lance rank are Abel, Hardin (questionable), Sheeda, and Doga.

The only thing seperating him from them at that time is spear rank, of which he loses to everyone who isn't a reclass. Spare me. The fact that Vyland and Matthis are closer to using that damn Ridersbane than he is...


- Durability
- Weapon Level bonuses
- Ridersbane (which is similar to having 100% crit)
- 1-2 Range Javelin
- Forging for the above two weapons

This means that Kain will have to work for his Lance rank, but the trade off will be far superior than sacrificing absolutely everything good about you just to double and rely on crits.

-From leeching kills. If you left that big a room to fuck up that you need to do that solid chunk of damage in one shot to kill something, you're doing it wrong.
-Agan, he's not experiencing this until later, of which is sacrificing better earlygame...to still get 2RKOd later. By weapon level bonus, I'm going to guess you mean "able to use ridersbane".
- An inaccurate weapon? Sooner or later, those things become pointless, I'd not miss it at all.
- Ridersbane is a fine reason to work on rank, but again, what would seperate him from any other spearmen when forging this sucker comes into play? Apparently having a forged ridersbane is 100% crit, making him quite easily replaceable.

Again, do explain how he is "relying" on it, rather than it just being an advantage he would actually have? I'm sacrificing leech kill power (which is insane to assume you'd need 15 power in one shot to kill something you need to leech) for more consistant and less dependent offense. A myrm needs a forge, a spearman needs a forged ridersbane and to fight a specific enemy type. As common as horsies are, there is more to think of than just them. You could just have consistant offense against everything rather than just 1 enemy type.

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18 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:00 pm

Maybe because early on you have 1 of each, and plenty of time to forge other things. Why forge a generic spear when I can forge a generic sword and get a greater return on my investment?

And funds won't become an issue?

Forging the killer edge?

4.5k for, again, a 5 crit increase. Increasing the odds from 36% to uhhh 44 I think? [sucks at mathematics beyond basics] Wow, that actually manages to be a worse deal. Plus Killers only have 20 uses so they wear themselves out quickly.

Hell, foge a bit of might on the silver sword and you can decimate Pyarthi is you wanted.

We still have that thing by C9?

Now why would we ignore that the possibility is always there when every other weapon has a far less reliable? We can't ignore that this thing will blow people away from time to time.

Don't strawman my statement plz

Nobody's ignoring anything, but you're exaggerating the benefit of doubling with the Killing Edge.

The fact that Vyland and Matthis are closer to using that damn Ridersbane than he is...

What, he can't get 15 rounds of combat in 4.5 chapters?

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19 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:15 pm

Cain reached D Lances by Chapter 4, and C Lances by Chapter 7 in my playthrough. 95% of the time, I would use a lance only on archers/other things that he wouldn't have WTD on. I may of used a lance to finish off a pirate ONCE, but he still would of got D Lances by Chapter 4 regardless. After that, he used almost exclusively lances until Chapter 7, since it made sense to have 1~2 range and neutral weapon triangle.

You also seem to be missing a main point of making H5 easy enough to play efficiently: Avoiding damage. Of my 5 main combat units, Cord can ORKO at range with a forged bow, Cain can use javelins/forged ridersbane for 2 range or OHKOs, same with Shiida (except with Wing Spear), Sedgar is Sedgar, and Barst can ORKO with Hand Axe. If I was to have Cain be a myrm instead, he'd be useless because he's severely lacking in the key areas that the rest of the team has. Being locked to 1 range is not efficient. At all.



Last edited by IOS on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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20 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:18 pm

-From leeching kills. If you left that big a room to fuck up that you need to do that solid chunk of damage in one shot to kill something, you're doing it wrong.
So how is Swordfighter Cain better in this aspect? His damage output is not better in any way, shape, or form. You're only sand bagging long term potential in order to hype a very small period of time.

-Agan, he's not experiencing this until later, of which is sacrificing better earlygame...to still get 2RKOd later. By weapon level bonus
This doesn't sound like a huge point on its own, but when you consider that Swords are losing 4 Mt (yes, 4) from WTD, then it is a gigantic difference that even doubling may not make up for. Kain should be doubling most unpromoted units except Pegasus Knights by 15/1 anyway.

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21 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:25 pm

Just loaded up my Chapter 10 save, and reclassed Cain to Myrm. The results are hilarious.

A cav that I could of OHKO'd with Ridersbane now is 3RKO'd. Sword cavs that usually 3RKO now 2RKO him. He is always forced to take damage. This isn't efficient. He's a piece of shit now.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8316/lolmyrmcain.png

vs.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5858/thatsbetter.png



Last edited by IOS on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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22 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:32 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot:
- An inaccurate weapon? Sooner or later, those things become pointless, I'd not miss it at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

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23 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:35 pm

[quote="sPortsman"]
Maybe because early on you have 1 of each, and plenty of time to forge other things. Why forge a generic spear when I can forge a generic sword and get a greater return on my investment?

Now why aren't we forging when we can? If between bullions we have plenty of weapons (don't you advocate the selling of generic weapons? Rainy day spending can well be funneled to forging), why not forge?


4.5k for, again, a 5 crit increase. Increasing the odds from 36% to uhhh 44 I think? [sucks at mathematics beyond basics] Wow, that actually manages to be a worse deal. Plus Killers only have 20 uses so they wear themselves out quickly.

41, but that's close to a coin flip. The low uses is made up for by the fact that a crit will blast something to reduce the uses. The crits help make it last longer, so upping the crit makes it last longer.


We still have that thing by C9?

Just how early do you get B rank, sir? Your best bet is Ogma, I can manage him getting to B at chapter 7, that's the soonest. How you manage to use the entire thing in basically 1 chapter is astounding.


Don't strawman my statement plz

Nobody's ignoring anything, but you're exaggerating the benefit of doubling with the Killing Edge.

You get one ridersbane until Jiol's chapter, of which is right after that you'd put it to any sort of use. However, you also have to forge them 1 by 1, chapter per chapter. You also ignore that this too is expensive, perhaps far more than any other weapon would. Let's not throw double standards, shall we?

I'd rather foge to have consistant offense on all things rather than just one type, especially if it has to be a rather late-coming weapon of which I'd have to share one by one till I forge enough of them.


What, he can't get 15 rounds of combat in 4.5 chapters?

Cain starts with E ank, that's 45 rounds.

@IOS Abel could have C quite a bit sooner (same thing as Cain+javelin uses), allowing him to use it nearly as soon as he gets it, Hardin can immediately, as can Jeigen. Unlike the silver sword, that has plenty of people who can use it on arrival. I'd question that thing lasting long at all.


So how is Swordfighter Cain better in this aspect? His damage output is not better in any way, shape, or form. You're only sand bagging long term potential in order to hype a very small period of time.

That it's easy enough for him to leech, but more available weapon choices to him as a myrm gives him overall superior offense due to specific ranks?


This doesn't sound like a huge point on its own, but when you consider that Swords are losing 4 Mt (yes, 4) from WTD, then it is a gigantic difference that even doubling may not make up for. Kain should be doubling most unpromoted units except Pegasus Knights by 15/1 anyway.

It loses 4 might at A might on lance users. On the other hand, he could more likely double things he couldn't as a paladin. Example being dracos, snipes, heroes, etc, because now that estimated levels are quite a bit lower, him doubling as a cav at all is quite questionable. Cain at 20/3 has 17 AS, which could actually get him doubled by the dracos who proc 21, and DOES get him doubled by heroes and snipers. 16 Str, A rank spears let's say. With Ridersbane forged to 11 mt, 33 effective+16 is 49, +2 is 51. That's not gonna be killing those paladins by then. Now as a swordmaster with 13 Str, I could add 3 might to a silver, subtract 1 and that's 25x2 might. Yes, it's still a somewhat big sacrifice in offense towards mounts, but on the other hand, I'm doubling everything else with a swordmaster while at the same time not in any danger of being doubled.

Finally, to IOS's findings, did you purposefully not use the ridersbane at all and gave myrm Cain some piece of shit weapon when you clearly have better? Matthis could OHKO with that thing, and he gets to C lances sooner. The fact of the matter is you waited longer to have Cain have very very minimal use of something any lancer could use just as well as he could. 4 Ridersbane uses until after Jiol, or more consistant offense against everything else?

Show me how Cain's doing without the Ridersbane, which realistically could be broken by the time he can use it, or very damn close to it.

Now will you PLEASE stop posting so that I may respond finally!?

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24 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:36 pm

Show me how Cain's doing without the Ridersbane, which realistically could be broken by the time he can use it, or very damn close to it.

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25 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:38 pm

FE3_Player wrote:
Show me how Cain's doing without the Ridersbane, which realistically could be broken by the time he can use it, or very damn close to it.

So informative! You had him stand out in the open like a moron!

What am I to learn from this?

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26 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:38 pm

Here. Maybe this will help.

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27 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:39 pm

BTW.

Stop sandbagging weapon uses.

Kthx.

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28 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:41 pm

sPortsman wrote:Here. Maybe this will help.


It's chapter 10, you STILL have that thing?

How am I sandbagging weapon uses? I actually use the weapon. The thing for me is quite usually close to breaking. You're basically saying it's all worth it for 2 ridersbane kills.

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29 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:42 pm

I actually use the weapon. The thing for me is quite usually close to breaking.
And you got more out of it than you would have Swordfighter, didn't you?

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30 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:44 pm

You're basically saying it's all worth it for 2 ridersbane kills.

Precisely what's all worth it?

Throw out the Ridersbane. Cav Cain is still better.

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31 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:47 pm

FE3_Player wrote:
I actually use the weapon. The thing for me is quite usually close to breaking.
And you got more out of it than you would have Swordfighter, didn't you?

It wasn't Cain using it, because he couldn't, cause he didn't have the fucking rank.

Which is my entire point! Even if he could, he has to share that with 3 others, who have also been using it during hte time he hasn't. Again, are you saying 3-4 uses of ridersbane cancels out the whole argument?

@sPortsman
How so? Similar durability, similar offense, yet myrm has more available weapon choices. Chapter 8 you can get silver swords, chapter 12 more silvers and killers. You don't get other ridersbanes till chapter 15, of which you then have to wait to forge them one by one, which warrents a lot of bumbling trading in and out. Even then, by then you aren't getting the OHKO bang for your buck you were getting with the first one you had, so what's the point?

Good swords are available much earlier.

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32 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:50 pm

So do you have some mystery method thats getting your turn count below mine? Because I'd love to hear it.

BTW: Cain has a monopoly on Ridersbane in my army. Big armies are stupid. Smaller armies where everyone gets the resources they need makes H5 a billion times more efficient.

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33 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:51 pm

IOS wrote:So do you have some mystery method thats getting your turn count below mine? Because I'd love to hear it.

Ae you claiming Cain is key to having the turn count stay low?

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34 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:53 pm

Ridersbane is, thats for sure.

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35 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:53 pm

How so? Similar durability, similar offense, yet myrm has more available weapon choices. Chapter 8 you can get silver swords, chapter 12 more silvers and killers.

The benefit from doubling is mitigated by Myrm's lower base str.

-2 per hit means Myrm is only doing 4 more damage than Cain is with Silver. And this is all BEFORE CAIN STARTS DOUBLING. Once he does? Myrm's fucked.

I just gave you a whole lecture on how you overrate doubling with Killing Edges..and now you're going on about them again?

And no, it was just proven that not only is there a durability gap [Cav gets 3RKOd instead of 2RKOd] he also has existing 2 range, something that's a big problem with myrm. I know overhype is your middle name and everything, but haven't you worn this one out yet?

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36 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:59 pm

Ae you claiming Cain is key to having the turn count stay low?
If your response is a strawman argument, which serves to disrespect a person's ability to play the game and cover your own butt just because you want to "win", then I kindly ask you to stop arguing this tier list entirely.

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37 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:01 pm

IOS wrote:Ridersbane is, thats for sure.

So basically him being the last person to get it outside of reclassers is better than offense with better and more available weapons? Freaking Matthis and Vyland could be on my team and contributing more often with the ridersbane than Cain would, if I can accuse anyone of slowing us down...


The benefit from doubling is mitigated by Myrm's lower base str.

-2 per hit means Myrm is only doing 4 more damage than Cain is with Silver. And this is all BEFORE CAIN STARTS DOUBLING. Once he does? Myrm's fucked.

Cain starts doubling at 17, which is at about chapter 15. He's got a window of 2 chapters before paladins become the norm, with their 15-16 AS. Cain at promotion has...16. He doubles for a grand total of 2 chapters as a paladin, and then he reverts to not doubling, except now he's in danger of being doubled by dracos.


And no, it was just proven that not only is there a durability gap [Cav gets 3RKOd instead of 2RKOd] he also has existing 2 range, something that's a big problem with myrm. I know overhype is your middle name and everything, but haven't you worn this one out yet?

3RKOd by what exactly? You never even shown anything of the sort. Are you assuming this was back when levels were 20/7 by the time braves show up?


If your response is a strawman argument, which serves to disrespect a person's ability to play the game and cover your own butt just because you want to "win", then I kindly ask you to stop arguing this tier list entirely.

Fine, Vyland and Matthis can get C rank faster, as can Abel, then we have Jeigen and Hardin to consider. That's 5 people who get the ridersbane faster than Cain, what claim does Cain have for getting it at all? If ridersbane is key to low turning earlygame, Cain's not contributing at all.

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38 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:06 pm

Cain starts doubling at 17, which is at about chapter 15. He's got a window of 2 chapters before paladins become the norm, with their 15-16 AS. Cain at promotion has...16. He doubles for a grand total of 2 chapters as a paladin, and then he reverts to not doubling, except now he's in danger of being doubled by dracos.

So?

I just showed you how much of a difference doubling with Silver makes. A very tiny one. So who cares that he's not doubling yet?



3RKOd by what exactly? You never even shown anything of the sort.

What are you talking about? Not only did I show you, I showed you in the form of photo evidence.



A goddamn Silver Sword. A goddamn Silver Sword 3RKOs Cav Cain and a Javelin cav is 2RKOing Myrmidon Cain.

Fine, Vyland and Matthis can get C rank faster

No, they don't. 15 rounds of combat in 4.5 chapters.

Such a demanding task.

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39 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:10 pm

Grandjackal has been strawmanning and refusing to reveal his turn count, ignoring many arguments, and even bringing in characters that suffer from his issues much more than he does in order to support his argument.

Onto the soft-ban list you go.

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40 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:11 pm

1) You missed where I said that Cain got D lances part way through Chapter 4
2) 3RKO'd by Sword Cavs. See the cav's damage in the Ridersbane pic?
3) I'll post a video of me beating Chapter 10, give you the save, and you can try to beat it with Myrm Cain instead and we'll see who has a better turncount. Sound good?

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41 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:21 am

Mekkah

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Wtf @ this topic? Lots of vague assertions with no numbers or sensical proposals at all vs actual arguments for like 30 posts?

I could see Cain moving down, but not below fucking Ogma.

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42 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:43 pm

*facedesk* I was about to respond, and my secondary connection conks out for the rest of the night, and now I'm on the soft-ban.

Seems I'd be a bit too late to think I'm gonna convince anyone though.

To answer the question about turn count, I'd say it really hasn't changed from norm...Though I suppose that's where I realize I jumped the gun.

Still, I think Cain could at least drop a BIT. Perhaps I should have started somewhere close to home...

EDIT: In fact, how is he above Hardin? Does beating him in bases and rank not count for anything?

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43 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:33 pm

EDIT: In fact, how is he above Hardin? Does beating him in bases and rank not count for anything?

Hardon's base lead is overrated, it's proven that Abel can tie them by the time Hardon joins and there's no reason the same can't be said for Cain.

The lance rank is a semi-decent argument since you can't be 100% sure at all that Cain can use Silver by the time it's buyable in C10, so below Hardon IS possible (As I've said on IRC), but that's not my territory to venture in.

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44 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:45 pm

Suppose I should point out the problems then.

Looking at their averages, the ONLY difference between Hardin and Cain are 3 things.

-Hardin starts with D swords and B lances. Cain starts with D swords and E lances. A good cav only needs C swords for armorslayers, so Hardin's weapon rank lead wins. What this also does is gives Hardin 6 more Acc and 1 more might than Cain, if they are at equal levels, that level being 6. Hardin also has something Cain doesn't, rank to use Ridersbane. He's got silver lance for everything else.

-Hardin gives "leadership" to his minions (such as The Zag and Wolfie), while Cain receives from Abel and Marth. Cain does feel these boosts in Pyarthi, where he would prefer myrm over cav (support with speed, luck and doubling with swords annihilating the rank bonus of axes and cutting it down by another 10 can actually manage to give him real avoid here. Hardin has no supports receiving). Cain can get another boost from one of the pegasi (I forget which), but by then it's a bit late, and accepting them onto the team is a bit iffy.

-Cain only has 1 real lead lategame, HP. By 20/3, what is the lead? 3 HP. That is the only thing that seperates them outside of supports.

So rank, leadership and pre-built weapon rank vs. Supports and 3 HP lategame. I'd say superior earlygame performance>3 HP and 20 avoid lategame.

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45 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:52 pm

So rank, leadership and pre-built weapon rank vs. Supports and 3 HP lategame. I'd say superior earlygame performance>3 HP and 20 avoid lategame.

This is why earlygame Silver Lance is overrated

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46 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:55 pm

Jackal does realize that Cain is also helping in Chapters 1-5 (fuck Hardin in Chapter 5), while Hardin isn't, right? I mean, if it's as close as he says, this should certainly be accounted for. It's even what's keeping Gordon in Lower Mid.

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47 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:58 pm

sPortsman wrote:
So rank, leadership and pre-built weapon rank vs. Supports and 3 HP lategame. I'd say superior earlygame performance>3 HP and 20 avoid lategame.

This is why earlygame Silver Lance is overrated

So now I see why Hardin's under Abel.

However, this is obvious with Abel, he starts with D lances for steel already. Cain needs to build his rank just to get Abel's performance there, if he can. Then, Abel can get Ridersbane when Hadin could also use it, while Cain can't. It's not just silver, it's Ridersbane.

@Ninji

While Cain might be helping earlygame (as in being hte dude with 6 AS who's in danger of being doubled by the 10 AS pirates and fighters), then Hardin shows up with similar stats to a trained Cain, except Hardin's weapon rank blows Cain's out of the water, in the form of being allowed to use Ridersbane.

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48 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:59 pm

However, this is obvious with Abel, he starts with D lances for steel already. Cain needs to build his rank just to get Abel's performance there, if he can. Then, Abel can get Ridersbane when Hadin could also use it, while Cain can't. It's not just silver, it's Ridersbane.

Cavs are the only differential, yes.

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49 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:08 pm

sPortsman wrote:
However, this is obvious with Abel, he starts with D lances for steel already. Cain needs to build his rank just to get Abel's performance there, if he can. Then, Abel can get Ridersbane when Hadin could also use it, while Cain can't. It's not just silver, it's Ridersbane.

Cavs are the only differential, yes.

Yes, and the question is when does Cain get the rank for D lances, much less C? Just how long is Hardin actually managing to beat out Cain until he gets his ranks up?

I still stand by my idea that it's only imposing more risk to make Cain use lances early on, which is bad for how much of a luckfest it is early on. He can spear some bowmen and thieves, but it's likely he won't get D till chapter 6.

But another factor is that in chapter 2 and 3, there are enemies with 10 AS. Cain starts with 6 AS. It's possible he could get doubled, especially if he ended up screwed oh so early.

Hardin is essentially a more stable version of Cain.

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50 Re: So there is to be expected turncounts, eh? on Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:10 pm

I still stand by my idea that it's only imposing more risk to make Cain use lances early on, which is bad for how much of a luckfest it is early on.

onoes 80 [92.20] displayed hit on Pirates

He can get D before Matthis joins, easy.

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