Fire Emblem Genesis

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Hardin > Abel?

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1 Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:15 pm

I always felt that Hardin was better, but never really had a good case until I looked at Abel's stats in this thread, where I saw underwhelming comparisons to Sheeda, and little that could be considered better than Hardin.

This IRC log pretty much sums up the content of this thread.

[15:25] <IOS> chainey, idk about hardin>abel
[15:25] <IOS> they're pretty much the same character
[15:25] <IOS> except that Abel will always have about +1 as
[15:25] <IOS> and hardin comes with b lances already
[15:25] <FE3_Player> Hardin is the same character without as much of an EXP cost.
[15:25] <IOS> true
[15:25] <IOS> i guess abel's not doing too hot in the first few chapters
[15:25] <FE3_Player> I don't know why people think that Abel's availability lead is an instant win. I know you people used him.
[15:26] <IOS> i used him
[15:26] <IOS> but to be fair, i favoured him
[15:26] <FE3_Player> Exactly.
[15:26] <FE3_Player> I did too.
[15:26] <FE3_Player> Well, I used Kain, but still.
[15:26] <Colonel_M> Yeah... I remember using Abel and thought to myself "why am I not using Hardin" one playthrough.
[15:27] <FE3_Player> Let me break it down. Chapter 1, he's useful because everyone has to work together, but so is Jeigan and Draug, and on top of that we've now realized that Sheeda is worth leveling too.
[15:27] =-= Mode #feto +o IOS by Colonel_M
[15:27] <FE3_Player> Chapter 2, we get a bunch of all star champions like OGUMA and BARTS. Jeigan is still great.
[15:27] <FE3_Player> And Cord is worth leveling.
[15:28] <FE3_Player> Chapter 3, you have this gigantic army, and you get yet another sword user fighting axes.
[15:28] <IOS> i wonder how they actually do in chapters 2/3
[15:28] <IOS> taking abel at 2/0 in Chapter 2
[15:29] <Colonel_M> Lemme sum it up
[15:29] <Colonel_M> 2RKO
[15:29] <IOS> lol
[15:29] <FE3_Player> So in Chapter 5, while you've been training dudes like BARTS and CORD and SHEEDA, you now get this one unit that's basically Abel, but grants EXP to units better than Abel.
[15:29] <IOS> k, against pirates he has 12 atk with iron
[15:30] <IOS> so thats a 4RKO
[15:30] <IOS> javelin is still a 4RKO
[15:31] <IOS> he can 3RKO hunters though
[15:31] <FE3_Player> Which is still pretty terrible.
[15:31] <IOS> well, yeah
[15:36] <IOS> whoops, i was looking at cain when i was doing those numbers
[15:36] <IOS> abel 5RKOs fighters with iron sword
[15:36] <Colonel_M> Ouch
[15:37] <IOS> although its a 4RKO with javelin
[15:37] <Colonel_M> With major Accuracy loss
[15:37] <IOS> and he may 6RKO cavs with javelin
[15:37] <IOS> depending if they have 31 HP or not
[15:39] <IOS> holy fuck, those chapter 3 fighters have a lot of HP
[15:40] <Colonel_M> lolyoujustnoticed?
[15:40] <IOS> i forgot
[15:41] <IOS> so abel 5RKOs them
[15:50] <IOS> i definitely see hardin>cavs now though
[15:50] <IOS> after seeing how crappy they are in the first few chapters
[15:50] <IOS> and how hardin pretty much avoids this

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2 Re: Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:36 pm

I don't really understand this attitude of Hardin "avoiding" the Cavaliers' performance in early chapters. Abel's performance early on isn't impressive, but many units are struggling to do any better. Cord is 4HKOing Pirates in Ch 2 with reduced hitrates (high 70's displayed, as compared to sword units with 100%) and doesn't even have 1-2 range, ditto for Cain on the not having range, Ogma is 5 or even 6HKOing Cavs w/ the Steel Sword (depending on their Hp) and still no range, and then there's lol AK Draug.

Meanwhile, Abel is atleast there during the early chapters and thus contributing more than Hardin by default. The prep menu doesn't even show up until Ch 4, and that chapter has 14 deployment slots while there's only 17 recruitable PCs up until then, so Abel will still be one of your better choices for the chapter.

I'm not necessarily arguing for Abel overall, but I don't think his availability should be brushed off with comments such as "abel 5RKOs enemies in ch 2/3" and "hardin pretty much avoids this."

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3 Re: Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:49 pm

I had no intentions of brushing off Abel's early game, but the fact that we seem to be feeding him kills during this time in order to get him to an acceptable performance, while Hardin comes already leveled up and readily available for the remainder of the game.

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4 Re: Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:14 pm

ITT overhyped Hardon fappage.

6/0 Abel (Steel Lance): 23 HP, 18 atk, 9 AS, 8 def
Base Hardon (Silver Lance): 24 HP, 23 atk, 8 AS, 8 def

Armor 3 (Steel Lance): 33 (34) HP, 22 (23) atk, 92 (93) hit, 3 (4) AS, 11 (12) def, 0 (1) res, 3 crit Abel 3RKOs low end ones while Hardon 3HKOs low end ones, a 4RKO on high end ones. This is a better performance, it's not so much to the level where we can go "SHIT GUYS WHY 'BABY' ABEL WHEN YOU CAN JUST USE HARDOOOOOOOON OUT OF THE GATE"

Thief 3(Steel Sword): 27 HP, 16 atk, 98 hit, 13 AS, 1 (2) def, 4 crit

2RKOing vs 2RKOing. Next.

Cav 3(Steel Lance): 31(32) HP, 22 atk, 92 (93) hit, 9 AS, 8 def, 3(4) crit
Silver Lance: 31(32) HP, 22 atk, 101 (102) hit, 9 AS, 8 def, 3(4) crit

Any leads Hardon has are made minimal due to Ridersbane.

Archer 1 (Steel Bow): 28 HP, 18 (19) atk, 92 (93) hit, 8 (9) AS, 6 def, 3 (4) crit
Archer 3 (Steel Bow): 29 (30) HP, 19 (20) atk, 94 hit, 9 AS, 6 (7) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

liek wow. He can kill Archers in one less hit, when Archers are fucked if you 1 range them anyway. This is nearly as bad as Grandjackal hype.

Mage 1 (Elfire): 22 HP, 20 atk, 90 (91) hit, 4 (5) AS, 2 def, 3 res, 2 (3) crit

Mage 3 (Elfire): 22 (23) HP, 21 atk, 91 (92) hit, 5 AS, 2 (4) def, 3 res, 3 crit

Hardon can't OHKO either, so Silver Lance does him no good here.

6x

Archer 1 (Iron Bow): 25 HP, 16 atk, 104 hit, 8 AS, 3 lck, 6 def, 4 crit
Steel Bow: 25 HP, 19 atk, 94 hit, 8 AS, 3 lck, 6 def, 4 crit

They're helpless once 1 ranged, and Abel just misses a 2RKO, so archer dies from getting breathed on after anyway. Are we really going to waste Silver Lance uses on Archers of all things, anyway?

Archer 3 (Iron Bow): 26 (27) HP, 16 atk, 104 hit, 9 AS, 3 (4) lck, 6 (7) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
Steel Bow: 26 (27) HP, 19 atk, 94 hit, 9 AS, 3 (4) lck, 6 (7) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit

-

Pirate 3 (Iron Axe): 33 (34) HP, 20 (22) atk, 100 (101) hit, 8(9) AS, 5 def, 0 (1) res, 2 (3) crit
Steel Axe: 33 (34) HP, 23 (25) atk, 90 (91) hit, 8(9) AS, 5 def, 0 (1) res, 2 (3) crit
Hand Axe: 33 (34) HP, 21 (23) atk, 80 (81) hit, 8(9) AS, 5 def, 0 (1) res, 2 (3) crit

Get this, Hardon's ATK gets cut down by two points [1 from Rank being cancelled, 1 from WTA] so it's possible he'll be missing 2RKOs and thus not be doing any better than Abel against these guys.

Merc lvl 1 (Armorslayer): 28 HP, 18 (19) atk, 91 hit, 12 AS, 5 def, 5 crit

Merc lvl 5: (Iron Sword): 31 HP, 17 atk, (112), 13 (14) AS, 6 def, 0 (1) res, 6 crit

I admit to a win here, but come on, there's four of them on the map.

Mage lvl 1 (Thunder): 22 HP, 17 atk, 100 hit, 5 AS, 2 def, 3 res, 2 crit

Mage lvl 3 (Fire): 22 HP, 17 atk, 111 hit, 7 AS, 2 def, 3 res, 3 crit

He can OHKO mages. I guess it's notable, but when there's only a small handful on the map?

So this Silver Lance only makes a difference versus armors. And even then Hardon doesn't do so good versus those. And hey, if we're going to sandbag Abel's earlygame to the point where being pretty much the same unit as Jagen minus Silver Lance Acess is a bad thing and Captain Barst the shitstomper who apparently is soloing maps with his homeboyz Ogma and Jagen now, do allow me to point out that there's about a million better ways that you could use to rape armors than Silver Lance Hardon. Wing Spear, Excalbur Merric, Wendell, Barst/Bord with Hammer...

So you'll have to forgive me if I think this stuff about Silver Lance Hardon and him "not needing BABYING OMG" is being blown way out of proportion. Btw, that's just ONE of the FOUR CHAPTERS MAXIMUM that Hardon has Silver Lance Access Abel doesn't. They're virtually identical once Hardon's Silver Lance dies out and they were pretty close already.



Last edited by sPortsman on Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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5 Re: Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:19 pm

That would be a good argument if this had anything to do with the Silver Lance.

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6 Re: Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:38 pm

I've already conceded. I don't have any strong argument to continue to support my claims.

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7 Re: Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:37 pm

lol, babying? Did you miss the part where I pointed out that many, if not the majority of your units are doing no better than Abel? Indeed, off the top of my head, the only units who would be clearly superior to Abel during the first few chaps are Jeigan, Shiida and maybe Barst/Ogma. Most of the high tiers are doing no better than him or worse, and I repeat, the high tiers. He would only need "babying" if he was doing way worse than everyone else on the team, but if anything he is above average.

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8 Re: Hardin > Abel? on Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:45 pm

What part of me conceding do people not understand?

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