Fire Emblem Genesis

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Brighton vs Asvel

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1 Brighton vs Asvel on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:57 pm

So, what keeps the little guy below Brighton? I understand Brighton has Wrath, mount and superior durability but Asvel's packing superior player and enemy phase offense after a few level ups, good boss killing, healing after promotion for what it's worth and the powerful Ambush + Tron combo enabling him to kill enemies who can't take 38-45 Magic ATK which is quite a lot of them. I'm aware that Olwen seems/is a better candidate for Ambush but it should at least be given some consideration.

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2 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:18 pm

I thought it takes forever to get Asvel to A thunder.

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3 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:30 pm

dondon151 wrote:I thought it takes forever to get Asvel to A thunder.
I've gotten him to A rank in Thunder by the end of C14. Just focus mostly on the Thunder rank and use Fire when it can double and Thunder can't. Wind rank can wait till later since the first Blizzard tome's in C19.



Last edited by ThunderMan on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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4 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:31 pm

I've never gotten him to B rank thunder by chapter 19...

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5 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:38 pm

dondon151 wrote:I've never gotten him to B rank thunder by chapter 19...

Asvel in C15 prep screen on my last playthrough:





Also...

Like I said, just use Thunder the most.

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6 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:17 am

I'm pretty sure that Thunder is the most common tome to take from enemy mages earlier in the game, anyway. It's better than spending money on Wind, imo.

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7 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:34 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:I'm pretty sure that Thunder is the most common tome to take from enemy mages earlier in the game, anyway. It's better than spending money on Wind, imo.

This.

Besides, who the hell cares? Do answer me this question.

Who do you think of when it comes to boss killing? Not Brighton.

Who's helping you destroy the wyverns in Selphna's chapter? Not Brighton.

Who's got accuracy? Not Brighton.

Who's got speed? Not Brighton.

Who's got range that doesn't blow? Not Brighton.

Brighton's wins are only durability, move, and helping in the prison chapters. Otherwise, I feel that Brighton is rather overrated, just because of Wrath. I'd say Asvel's overall utility from there on afterwards is too much in consideration to Brighton's subpar performance outside of player phase when he manages to hit the first strike of his counter for wrath murder.

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8 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:24 pm

I wouldn't call OHKOing everything on the enemy phase and being invincible with a mount and axes overrated.

I mean, I can't even see him under Dean, who has half of his availability, a ballistae weakness, and mediocre (it's not bad since A swords, but I wouldn't say it was even Trewd-level) indoor offense, while indoor maps are pretty common after Chapter 20. I know Dean is a complete rape machine with the Dragon Lance and can fly, but he has a lot of things going against him.

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9 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:40 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:I wouldn't call OHKOing everything on the enemy phase and being invincible with a mount and axes overrated.

I mean, I can't even see him under Dean, who has half of his availability, a ballistae weakness, and mediocre (it's not bad since A swords, but I wouldn't say it was even Trewd-level) indoor offense, while indoor maps are pretty common after Chapter 20. I know Dean is a complete rape machine with the Dragon Lance and can fly, but he has a lot of things going against him.

What about Dean? if you want to argue about him make a new thread so the arguments don't get jumbled up and lost when people are still talking about Asvel vs Brighton.

Back to topic:
Brighton is far from being a tank anyways. He has only 1 point higher base defense and slight HP win on Fergus during Manster due to dismount penalties. His mounted tank and enemy phase utility is a tad overrated as 1) his hit rate has issues 2) its not like he can take a whole swarm of enemies anyway without dying.

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10 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:53 pm

He's also only "invincible on enemy phase" if he hits. Bad skill, bad luck, weapons with shit hit. That's bad enough to actually matter.

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11 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:23 pm

Bad skill, bad luck, weapons with shit hit.

Swords have shit hit?

Also, I was under the impression Wrath hits had 100% accuracy?

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12 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:27 pm

sPortsman wrote:
Swords have shit hit?

So much for his mount then. Even then, he has to deal with shit sword rank.


Also, I was under the impression Wrath hits had 100% accuracy?

Nope, not even close.

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13 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:30 pm

So much for his mount then.

If losing the mount is necessary for preferable hit rates, oh well.

Even then, he has to deal with shit sword rank.

He starts with D (10) and has three chapters where he's forced to dismount. I don't see weapon rank being a problem for him, he's not Hicks here.

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14 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:45 am

Brighton wrote:
What about Dean? if you want to argue about him make a new thread so the arguments don't get jumbled up and lost when people are still talking about Asvel vs Brighton.

Jackal said he was overrated. I pointed out that I can't even see him past Dean.



By the way, these hit issues are being stressed, but I'm not seeing much of a hit issue.

He has 77 base hit with an Iron Axe.
+5 for WTA. 82 hit.
+10 hit whenever Machua is around. 92 hit.
Another +10 when Leaf has both of his Leadership stars, though it's possible that they may be canceled out by enemy bosses. 102 hit.
Possible +10 hit from Charisma. 112 hit.

Even if we discount Leaf's leadership because an enemy boss might have 2 leadership stars, say Machua isn't played or Brighton ran ahead, say Nanna isn't played or is off healing someone, and he's facing an enemy sword armor or something, he still has 72 hit at base level.

Someone please tell me how this is awful.

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15 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:18 am

sorry



Last edited by Brighton on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total

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16 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:30 am

Brighton wrote:
ChaosNinji wrote:
Jackal said he was overrated. I pointed out that I can't even see him past Dean.

By the way, these hit issues are being stressed, but I'm not seeing much of a hit issue.

He has 77 base hit with an Iron Axe.
+5 for WTA. 82 hit.
+10 hit whenever Machua is around. 92 hit.
Another +10 when Leaf has both of his Leadership stars, though it's possible that they may be canceled out by enemy bosses. 102 hit.
Possible +10 hit from Charisma. 112 hit.

Even if we discount Leaf's leadership because an enemy boss might have 2 leadership stars, say Machua isn't played or Brighton ran ahead, say Nanna isn't played or is off healing someone, and he's facing an enemy sword armor or something, he still has 72 hit at base level.

Someone please tell me how this is awful.

I don't think he should move down below Dean, but I do think moving him 1 space below Asvel is justified.

I said he does has hit issues and I stand by that statement. Under optimal conditions he has 112 hit, but remember early on enemies can reach around 10-15 avo easily. Doesn't leaf only have 6% bonus with 2 leadership stars? Charisma isn't always nearby and neither is Machua. His luck and skill growths are awful however and 72 base hit ignoring terrain and enemy evade is not good IMO.

I never did say that his hit rate was awful.
I'm just saying his role as a wrath tanker needs to thought about more carefully. The AI is smart enough to not attack him unless no one else is nearby, unless it's another wrath character. Enemies with 1-2 range and 2 range will not directly attack him and if he misses once, the enemy takes up a space and he is prevented from killing more enemies. On player phase, he most likely will have trouble dealing damage so if he was in a niche position, he is wasting space as he won't be able to kill the enemy in front of him. Being forced to have the best posible circumstances possible in order to fulfil the role given to him is a slight issue.

Olwen is invincible with ambush, but her hit issues are complained about too. With daim thunder+leaf support+fred support+charisma+2leadership+5WTA she reaches 132 hit at base. I'm not arguing her up, but giving Olwen, her optimal fighting position in order to say that she doesn't have hit issues is either 1) a double standard or 2) begging the question by using a situation that isn't going to happen too often.

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17 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:27 pm

Brighton wrote:
I don't think he should move down below Dean, but I do think moving him 1 space below Asvel is justified.

Never argued for or against it.


I said he does has hit issues and I stand by that statement. Under optimal conditions he has 112 hit, but remember early on enemies can reach around 10-15 avo easily.

Highest avoid I see in Chapter 4 is 7. I rather doubt that it doubles by the time we leave Manster, but enemy stats are so erratic in this game, I guess it's possible.


Doesn't leaf only have 6% bonus with 2 leadership stars?

I mixed up FE4 and FE5.

Fine, it's only 6. It's still high enough.


Charisma isn't always nearby and neither is Machua.

Machua is at least going to be around for all of Manster, meaning that he already has 97 base hit with a Steel Sword for all of it. The move difference is less pronounced in this game, imo, so it's not like Machua is being left in the dust outside, either. She may not be around all the time, but it's sandbagging to ignore it. It's like denying Fergus a Karin support.

Charisma is a bit less concrete, but it still exists, and Nanna has the same move as Brighton, so it's not unlikely that Brighton is within Charisma range.


His luck and skill growths are awful however

There's always the Odo scroll. I mean, honestly, who wants it? Marty? I guess Hicks might, but there's no reason they can't trade it. I mean, same move and class and all that.


and 72 base hit ignoring terrain and enemy evade is not good IMO.

Against something with a sword, yeah. The much more common lances? It's 82, and Armors and Soldiers have awful AS for the most part, so their evade doesn't really come into play.


I'm just saying his role as a wrath tanker needs to thought about more carefully. The AI is smart enough to not attack him unless no one else is nearby, unless it's another wrath character.

We don't penalize Zagaro because he's invincible and enemies are more likely to attack Tomas than him. Hell, if you're so concerned about enemies attacking other characters, then just have Brighton lure them out one at a time and Wrath them to death.


Enemies with 1-2 range and 2 range will not directly attack him

Of course they won't. With a Hand Axe, he has 59 base hit, which, admittedly, is not great. Leadership still puts that to 65, and being farther back makes it easier for Machua to be in range, which puts it to 75. WTA, 80. I mean, it's not great, but it's not that bad.


and if he misses once, the enemy takes up a space and he is prevented from killing more enemies.

Yes, I know what missing a hit does.


On player phase, he most likely will have trouble dealing damage so if he was in a niche position, he is wasting space as he won't be able to kill the enemy in front of him.

He's one of, if not the, best unit you have in Manster, so I think 6 levels is not unheard of for 4 chapters.

A single level of Sety pushes his AS up one, which I don't think you'll find ludicrous.

Level 11 Brighton (Machua support included): 32 HP, 8 Defense, 0 Magic
w/ Iron Axe: 16 ATK, 91 Hit, 8 AS, 17 Crit, 28 Avoid
w/ Steel Axe: 20 ATK, 81 Hit, 5 AS, 17 Crit, 22 Avoid
w/ Hand Axe: 13 ATK, 71 Hit, 8 AS, 17 Crit, 28 Avoid

Or, if you'd prefer dismounted:

Level 11 Brighton (Machua support): 32 HP, 6 Defense, 0 Magic
w/ Long Sword: 16 ATK, 89 Hit, 7 AS, 16 Crit, 26 Avoid
w/ Steel Sword: 15 ATK, 89 Hit, 7 AS, 16 Crit, 26 Avoid
w/ Rapier: 10 ATK (18 against Armors or Horses), 114 Hit, 7 AS, 26 Crit, 26 Avoid

Let's compare him to, say, Fergus. Fergus really has no reason to dismount, so I won't bother including that.

A level of Hezul to compensate for Brighton's Sety scrolling.

Level 9 Fergus (Karin support): 30 HP, 6 Defense, 0 Magic
w/ Long Sword: 18 ATK, 107 Hit, 6 AS, 19 Crit, 30 Avoid
w/ Steel Sword: 17 ATK, 107 Hit, 7 AS, 19 Crit, 32 Avoid
w/ Iron Sword: 14 ATK, 112 Hit, 9 AS, 19 Crit, 36 Avoid
w/ Rapier: 12 ATK (20 against Armors or Horses), 126 Hit, 9 AS, 29 Crit, 36 Avoid

Fergus has 5 PCC, but Brighton has Wrath, so they kind of cancel out.

I honestly don't think that Brighton is "having trouble dealing damage" on the Player Phase if he's being pretty damn comparable to Fergus.


Being forced to have the best posible circumstances possible in order to fulfil the role given to him is a slight issue.

Olwen is invincible with ambush, but her hit issues are complained about too. With daim thunder+leaf support+fred support+charisma+2leadership+5WTA she reaches 132 hit at base. I'm not arguing her up, but giving Olwen, her optimal fighting position in order to say that she doesn't have hit issues is either 1) a double standard or 2) begging the question by using a situation that isn't going to happen too often.
[/quote]

I gave Brighton the worst possible situation there is for him, barring having a Hand Axe in said situation, and he still had 72 base hit, which is not bad.

Also, people hype Olwen's accuracy problems because it's not "oh, I have to have someone kill that person next turn" if she misses. If she misses, it's "oh shit, Olwen died", and it's a lot more likely than, say, the Aran crit in 1-4.

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18 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:12 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:[
Highest avoid I see in Chapter 4 is 7. I rather doubt that it doubles by the time we leave Manster, but enemy stats are so erratic in this game, I guess it's possible.
Oh I was putting into account 2-3 leadership stars too...

I mixed up FE4 and FE5.

Fine, it's only 6. It's still high enough.
Leaf loses his stars during Manster, gets one back from chapter 6-9, get another at chapter 10


Machua is at least going to be around for all of Manster, meaning that he already has 97 base hit with a Steel Sword for all of it. The move difference is less pronounced in this game, imo, so it's not like Machua is being left in the dust outside, either. She may not be around all the time, but it's sandbagging to ignore it. It's like denying Fergus a Karin support.

Charisma is a bit less concrete, but it still exists, and Nanna has the same move as Brighton, so it's not unlikely that Brighton is within Charisma range.

I'm incline to argue this, but this comes down to playstyle. Karin is terrible during manster and starts without weapons, so her main job is just to support fergus, get captured, dodge tank and try to level up a bit to survive. During chapter 4 it is probably better to split up your characters as the only competant fighters you have are Fergus, Brighton, and Machua. I'm not saying that Brighton never gets a Machua support, but sometimes he doesn't if you want to save turns...Nanna only appears near the end of Manster anyway, curses, she would have been so useful in chapter 4 Crying or Very sad



There's always the Odo scroll. I mean, honestly, who wants it? Marty? I guess Hicks might, but there's no reason they can't trade it. I mean, same move and class and all that.
Odo appears after Manster when Brighton probably already reached level 12 or something


Against something with a sword, yeah. The much more common lances? It's 82, and Armors and Soldiers have awful AS for the most part, so their evade doesn't really come into play.
Are you sure? it was 69hit at base with the steel axe, 77hit with the steel sword and iron axe.


We don't penalize Zagaro because he's invincible and enemies are more likely to attack Tomas than him. Hell, if you're so concerned about enemies attacking other characters, then just have Brighton lure them out one at a time and Wrath them to death.
1) This wastes a lot of turns if you don't just push forward in FE
2) I'm not sure what you are talking about since I don't own a DS
3) I was under the impression that Brighton was higher than Asvel due to his ability to wrath tank. I'm just saying that wrath tanking isn't as good as I originally thought it was so...Actually I'm not sure how we are supposed to directly compare whether Brighton is better than Asvel since their roles are so different in this game.


Of course they won't. With a Hand Axe, he has 59 base hit, which, admittedly, is not great. Leadership still puts that to 65, and being farther back makes it easier for Machua to be in range, which puts it to 75. WTA, 80. I mean, it's not great, but it's not that bad.
Again, this the best situation. What if Machua isn't deployed, what if it isn't chapter 10, what if he attacks a sword user, what if the enemy is hiding in terrain (the AI is smart), what if enemy has leadership. I'm not saying that Brighton is bad, just his 2 range is bad and inferior to Asvel's


Yes, I know what missing a hit does.
Sorry if that came off to sound audacious, that wasn't my intention, I just wanted to say missing an enemy in a key position would reduce efficiency


He's one of, if not the, best unit you have in Manster, so I think 6 levels is not unheard of for 4 chapters.

A single level of Sety pushes his AS up one, which I don't think you'll find ludicrous.

Level 11 Brighton (Machua support included): 32 HP, 8 Defense, 0 Magic
w/ Iron Axe: 16 ATK, 91 Hit, 8 AS, 17 Crit, 28 Avoid
w/ Steel Axe: 20 ATK, 81 Hit, 5 AS, 17 Crit, 22 Avoid
w/ Hand Axe: 13 ATK, 71 Hit, 8 AS, 17 Crit, 28 Avoid

Or, if you'd prefer dismounted:

Level 11 Brighton (Machua support): 32 HP, 6 Defense, 0 Magic
w/ Long Sword: 16 ATK, 89 Hit, 7 AS, 16 Crit, 26 Avoid
w/ Steel Sword: 15 ATK, 89 Hit, 7 AS, 16 Crit, 26 Avoid
w/ Rapier: 10 ATK (18 against Armors or Horses), 114 Hit, 7 AS, 26 Crit, 26 Avoid

Let's compare him to, say, Fergus. Fergus really has no reason to dismount, so I won't bother including that.

A level of Hezul to compensate for Brighton's Sety scrolling.

Level 9 Fergus (Karin support): 30 HP, 6 Defense, 0 Magic
w/ Long Sword: 18 ATK, 107 Hit, 6 AS, 19 Crit, 30 Avoid
w/ Steel Sword: 17 ATK, 107 Hit, 7 AS, 19 Crit, 32 Avoid
w/ Iron Sword: 14 ATK, 112 Hit, 9 AS, 19 Crit, 36 Avoid
w/ Rapier: 12 ATK (20 against Armors or Horses), 126 Hit, 9 AS, 29 Crit, 36 Avoid

Fergus has 5 PCC, but Brighton has Wrath, so they kind of cancel out.

I honestly don't think that Brighton is "having trouble dealing damage" on the Player Phase if he's being pretty damn comparable to Fergus.
I think you forgot that Fergus has 5PCC and Karin give him 50% chance to critical on second attack. Rapier is the same. You also forgot to mention he can use kill edge right away (but only posers would bother to get it), fire sword, brave sword with just 20 swings of a sword, and Karin is terrible in Manster and relies on dodge, so its a bad idea for her to stray from Fergus. Enemy speed may be lol, but they do have enough defense that criticals are often the only way to kill stuff in this game. His player phrase is most certainly not comparable due to wrath not activating during PP.


I gave Brighton the worst possible situation there is for him, barring having a Hand Axe in said situation, and he still had 72 base hit, which is not bad.
He needs wrath to kill, he has trouble doubling in manster, and relies on hitting the enemy in order to maximize his utility. I'm not saying that he should drop below Dean though.


Also, people hype Olwen's accuracy problems because it's not "oh, I have to have someone kill that person next turn" if she misses. If she misses, it's "oh shit, Olwen died", and it's a lot more likely than, say, the Aran crit in 1-4.
That is one reason that Olwen is a tier below Brighton, but also remember that before in optimal conditions that is only 1%. Thats a risk that can be taken in order to reduce turncount (or whatever the heck is efficient)

I'll compare Asvel and Brighton later.

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19 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:54 am

Ok so... 2 weeks after a few posts that weren't exactly reinforcing "Brighton > Asvel" but were more focused on nuking some inconsistencies or overblown statements and still no verdict on this?

A mount on the outdoor maps doesn't seem like enough to beat superior player phase AND overall enemy phase offense, Blizzard, Bolting, high possibility of Tron + Ambush combo and getting spanked in the indoor maps.

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20 Re: Brighton vs Asvel on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:43 am

Mekkah

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I'll agree with Asvel > Brighton, I think.

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