Shiida>Hardon

So before Hardin joins, Shiida is incredibly useful. 1~2 range with Javelin, Wing Spear for those pesky cavs/armors, and flight utility. I'll just compare them once they're both here together. In Chapter 6, since Hardin probably won't be fighting a whole lot if he doesn't want to be killed in his join chapter. Hardin is probably one of the only guys that can use Silver Lance right now, so I'll be nice and give it to him.

Chapter 6:

7/0 Shiida: 18 HP, 13/29 (+1) Atk (Steel/Wing), 13/17 AS (Steel/Wing), 7 Def
6/0 Hardon: 24 HP, 22 (+1) Atk (Silver), 8 AS, 8 Def

Armors: Shiida ORKOs, while Hardin 2RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd
Thieves: Shiida 2-3RKOs (ORKOs with Wing Spear), while Hardin 2RKOs. Caeda is 3RKO'd, while Hardin is 5RKO'd
Cavs: Shiida ORKOs, while Hardin 3RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd
Archers: If Shiida wants to pull out the wing spear, she can 2RKO. Otherwise, she 4RKOs. Hardin 2RKOs. Hardin's doing better defensively obviously
Mages: Shiida ORKOs, and Hardin 1-2RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd

Shiida is doing better overall against Armors, Cavs and Mages, while Hardin is doing better vs...archers and thieves. It shouldn't be hard to figure out which are greater threats to the team (The former have 22-23 atk...the later have 16-19), so Shiida is helping out much more by killing these threats in one hit. Hardin isn't pulling terrible numbers, but they still are roughly on par with how the rest of the team is doing. Also, if you forge +3 might on her wing spear, she can insta-blick cavs without fearing a counter. This is definitely better for her durability, and preserves her Wing Spear so its a good investment

A wee bit later:

Chapter 10:

14/0 Shiida: 21 HP, 20/31 Atk (+1) (Silver/Wing), 20 AS, 8 Def
14/0 Hardon: 28 HP, 24 Atk (+2) (Silver), 12 AS, 10 Def

Thieves: Both 2RKO. Both are 2RKO'd
Armors: Shiida ORKO's, while Hardin 2RKO's. Both are 2RKO'd
Archers: Both 2RKO. Shiida's ORKO'd, and Hardin is 2-3RKO'd
Cavs: Shiida ORKO's, while Hardin 2-3RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd
Sniper: Both 2RKO. Shiida's ORKO'd, and Hardin is 2-3RKO'd
Wyvern: Shiida 2RKOs while Hardin 3RKOs. Both are 2RKO'd
Pegs: Both 2RKO. Shiida's 2RKO'd while Hardin is 3RKO'd
Horsemen reinforcements: Shiida ORKO's and Hardin 2RKOs. Shiida is ORKO'd, while Hardin is 2-3RKO'd

Shiida has an obvious offensive advantage...especially against the Cavs. Cavs make up the majority of the map, so she's incredibly useful to have around. They're faring pretty much equally on anything that isn't a bow user (which should be obvious by now). That +3 mt on a Wing Spear will insta blick some cavs and horsemen, which also does wonders for her durability. Flying also gives her more versatility, and she's giving out supports to half of the males on the team. I'd still say its a win for Shiida, despite her lower defenses against bow users thanks to her incredible offence. Only somebody like Barst can probably pull numbers like this offensively.

Lets skip to promotion at C16:

20/1 Shiida: 28 HP, 25/36 (+2) Atk (Silver/Wing), 20 AS, 14 Def
20/1 Hardon: 35 HP, 28/39 (+2) Atk (Silver/Riders), 17 AS, 12 Def

Horsemen: Shiida ORKOs, while Hardin 2RKOs. Shiida is ORKO'd, and Hardin is 4RKO'd
Wyvern: Shiida 2RKOs, and Hardon 3RKOs. Shiida is 3RKO'd and Hardin is 3RKO'd, or ORKO'd by the Ridersbane guy
Heroes: Shiida 3RKOs, and Hardin 2RKOs. Both are 3RKO'd
Cavs: Both ORKO all. Shiida is usually 3RKO'd, as is Hardin (except for the Ridersbane one...)
Paladin: Shiida ORKO's and Hardin 2RKOs. Shiida is 2RKO'd and Hardin is juuuust avoiding a 2RKO
General: See above

Same story for the most part. Shiida is usually winning offence, and Hardin is just occasionally winning defense. I'd still value Shiida's versatility from flying, and support generosity higher.

So Shiida wins earlygame, and then it becomes a case of a significant offensive lead vs. a slight defensive lead. When you factor in Shiida's flight advantages, her supporting many characters, and availability, it becomes clear that Shiida>Hardon

Thoughts?

Why can't Hardin get a +3 MT forged Ridersbane, especially considering how since more people can use it, it would normally be a higher forging priority (normally because Wing Spear comes earlier than Ridersbane, so Wing Spear gets forged first)? You can annihilate an entire army of enemy cavalry with 1 Ridersbane (provided you have enough users of it) while you can't do that with 1 Wing Spear.

Why can't Hardin go DK after promotion, nullifying Shiida's flight advantage?

Ridersbane has a lot of people gunning for it, and I don't think he's really the best user of it either. Units with more strength like Cain, Abel, Sedgar need less might forged on it in order to OHKO with it, which obviously saves you money. Somebody like Abel will also be able to double with it much sooner then Hardin as well. Also, I'm not sure how long the thing is going to last. It has 20 uses to Wing Spear's 28, and you can buy another Wing Spear in Chapter 8, while the next Ridersbane doesn't come until Chapter 13. One of the cavs will probably be using it in Chapter 5 before Hardin even gets access to it, which is sure to put a dent in it.

Hardin can go DK after promotion, but then he loses his defensive advantage vs. bow users, and Shiida is still doing much better offensively.

Ridersbane being competed for doesn't mean that Hardin can't use it. You're really sandbagging him if you compare Wing Spear Shiida's offense against cavalry to Silver Lance Hardin's offense, because in practice, if you had a shot at an enemy on horseback, and you had to decide between using Silver Lance or Ridersbane, you would always pick the Ridersbane. So in reality, Hardin is almost never attacking enemy cavalry without Ridersbane unless the KO would be assured with another unit, and at that point the efficiency with which Hardin does his job doesn't matter anyway.

You can't say that Hardin gets points for not being flying, and then penalize him for not being flying. After promotion he and Shiida have access to the same classes, and both will have about the same lance rank, so there shouldn't be any comparative advantage in that vein.

Except that the efficiency with which Hardin does his job does matter. The opportunity cost of Hardin using the Ridersbane is denying Abel the weapon who needs less might forged on it, and can double with it earlier then Hardin. Either thats the opportunity cost, or its denying Sedgar/Wolf the weapon who can wither down enemies to practically nothing on enemy phase, and not having to worry about dying. I'd say the later is the opportunity cost, as they can literally be thrown into an army of cavs, and leave them to be easily picked off by the rest of the team with no effort required. Using the Wing Spear has a very low opportunity cost in comparison. This would only apply in the Chapter 6 comparison anyway, the Ridersbane is most likely broken by Chapter 10.

If they both have the same class, then Hardin has no win against Shiida besides taking the odd extra hit, while Shiida is still doing much better offensively thanks to being able to double.

IOS wrote:Except that the efficiency with which Hardin does his job does matter. The opportunity cost of Hardin using the Ridersbane is denying Abel the weapon who needs less might forged on it, and can double with it earlier then Hardin. Either thats the opportunity cost, or its denying Sedgar/Wolf the weapon who can wither down enemies to practically nothing on enemy phase, and not having to worry about dying. I'd say the later is the opportunity cost, as they can literally be thrown into an army of cavs, and leave them to be easily picked off by the rest of the team with no effort required. This would only apply in the Chapter 6 comparison anyway, the Ridersbane is most likely broken by Chapter 10.

You didn't understand my point. If Hardin is attacking cavalry, he'll be attacking with a Ridersbane. Otherwise, another unit will be attacking with a Ridersbane instead. Abel doubling with Ridersbane doesn't matter because we'd rather forge MT onto it and preserve its uses than use it up against 10 horseback enemies. Also, there is an opportunity cost associated with Sedgar/Wolf using the weapon, and that is the cost of turns attributed to lack of movement. If I gave the Ridersbane to Cain, who picks off 2 enemy cavaliers on enemy phase, and then he, Abel, and Hardin pick off 1 cavalier/horseman each on player phase, that would basically be the equivalent of waiting for Sedgar/Wolf to catch up, lure out the enemy, and having the other units hide in fear until the threat is neutralized.

It's not that Hardin is the "best user" of the Ridersbane. It's that whenever Hardin needs the Ridersbane to do what he needs to do, he'll get it.

By the way, 20/1 Hardin loses str to 20/1 Abel by .4. So both of them will need the same amount of MT forged onto it.

Are you arguing Hardon>Shiida, or are you arguing that Ridersbane is a good weapon? Its nice that Hardon can use it, but its not enough to outweigh the advantages of Shiida having 2 all to herself (with 16 more total uses, so its more like 3) before the second Ridersbane even appears.

1 Ridersbane is enough until the second appears unless you're stupid and don't forge MT on it so it requires 2 shots to kill enemy cavalry.

Anyway, I was pointing out that you were sandbagging Hardin by denying him a resource that he makes good use of. I'm pretty sure that even with the ability to blick cavalry he's still no more than on an equal level with Shiida (which equates to a loss after factoring in availability among other things).

Odd, I remember seeing Shiida above Hardin last I checked the list.

Agree with the topic.

IIRC Armors are a ORKO w/Armorslayer too. Yes I wouldn't sandbag Hardin for C Swords.

But I'm not denying Shiida > Hardon. Like Rody said though, might want to look at Kain & Abel.

About Armors:

By Chapter 6, he won't have C Swords
By Chapter 10, he'll do 19x2 damage, for an ORKO
By Chapter 16, he'll do 19-20x2 for a 2RKO (he was 2RKOing anyways)

So I suppose its nice to have in Chapter 10

Forging MT onto Armorslayers? Shiida is not the only character in the game who gets a forge.

Just how many forges are we giving Hardin? We're giving him a forged Ridersbane AND a forged Armorslayer? While Shiida only needs a forged Wing Spear? Which costs less to forge then a Ridersbane? You can nitpick all you want, Hardin needs more resources to emulate Shiida's performance, and he is unable to make use of flying utility until after promotion. He also loses availability, where Shiida is the ONLY character who can reliably eliminate cavs/armors. I believe this equates to a win for Shiida.

Forging MT onto effective weapons helps everyone that can use it, not just Hardin. Those forges will be there whether Hardin needs them or not; he might as well use them if everyone else is using them.

The full cost of the Wing Spear falls on Shiida because she's the only one who uses it, whereas the costs of the Ridersbane and Armorslayer fall on all characters who are capable of using it. For example, Hardin might share the cost of the Ridersbane with Cain and Abel and he might share the cost of the Armorslayer with Ogma and Athena. We're not forging the weapons specifically for Hardin; we're forging the weapons specifically for the purpose that they are supposed to have (i.e. killing cavalry and knights), and Hardin just happens to be one of the many means through which that is achieved.

I'm not denying that Wing Spear is good, but denying Hardin an Armorslayer forge (he probably needs only 1 or 2 MT) that other characters might be using anyway is blatant sandbagging.

If Hardin gets to split the opportunity cost with other characters, he has to split the theoretical benefit of it as well.

There's A General in C16 anyway. I'm not holy hell worried if we don't forge Mt on that Armorslayer.

Of course. But the fact is that Hardin still gets to use those weapons.

I want to point out that being able to reduce armors to near death is great for other units.

Anyway, if Sheeda is going to rise above Hardin, we may as well go for Abel & Kain as well.

I'll just go with similar levels to IOS' comparisons, assuming Abel is the same level as Hardin by Hardin's joining time.

Chapter 1:

Thief (Iron Sword): 25 HP, 14 atk, 14 AS, 107 hit, 1 def, 3 crt
Abel
- faces 1% crit chance
- 3RKO's with Iron and Javelin
- 2RKO'd in return

Sheeda
- 3RKO's with any weapon
- 3RKO'd in return

Hunter (Iron Bow): 27 HP, 14 (15) atk, 10 (11) AS, 104 hit, 3 def, 4 crit
Abel
- Faces 2% crit chances
- 3RKO's with Iron Lance
- 3RKO'd by 10 AS, 2RKO'd by 11 AS

Sheeda
- 4RKO's with Iron, 3RKO's with Wing Spear
- OHKO'd (?)

Pirate (Iron Axe): 25 (26) HP, 15 atk, 6 AS, 99 (100) hit, 4 def, 2 (3) crt
Abel
- Might face 1% crit
- 4RKO's
- Is 3RKO'd

Sheeda
- 3RKO's
- Is 2RKO'd

I don't feel like doing Chapter 2-5 stats, though let's keep in mind that Sheeda has Wing Spear utility on Chapter 4. Let's skip to Chapter 5 where Hardin joins and I can just copy IOS' Sheeda stats. The only difference is that Abel is level 7.

I am also not sure how his weapon rank progresses, so I'll assume silver for simplicity.

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Chapter 6:

7/0 Shiida: 18 HP, 13/29 (+1) Atk (Steel/Wing), 13/17 AS (Steel/Wing), 7 Def
7/0 Abel: 23 HP, 22 Atk (Silver + B Rank), 10 AS, 8 Def

Armor 3 (Steel Lance): 33 (34) HP, 22 (23) atk, 92 (93) hit, 3 (4) AS, 11 (12) def, 0 (1) res, 3 crit
Sheeda
- ORKO's
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 2RKO'd

Thief 3(Steel Sword): 27 HP, 16 atk, 98 hit, 13 AS, 1 (2) def, 4 crit
Sheeda
- 2-3RKOs (ORKOs with Wing Spear)
- 3RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 3RKO'd

Cav 3(Steel Lance): 31(32) HP, 22 atk, 92 (93) hit, 9 AS, 8 def, 3(4) crit
Sheeda
- ORKO's
- 2RKO'd

Archer 1 (Steel Bow): 28 HP, 18 (19) atk, 92 (93) hit, 8 (9) AS, 6 def, 3 (4) crit
Archer 3 (Steel Bow): 29 (30) HP, 19 (20) atk, 94 hit, 9 AS, 6 (7) def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
Sheeda
- 2RKO's with Wing Spear
- 4RKO's otherwise
- ORKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 3RKO'd by 19 Atk
- 2RKO'd by 20 Atk

Mage 1 (Elfire): 22 HP, 20 atk, 90 (91) hit, 4 (5) AS, 2 def, 3 res, 2 (3) crit
Mage 3 (Elfire): 22 (23) HP, 21 atk, 91 (92) hit, 5 AS, 2 (4) def, 3 res, 3 crit
Sheeda
- ORKO's
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- ORKO's
- 2RKO'd

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Chapter 10:

14/0 Shiida: 21 HP, 20/31 Atk (+1) (Silver/Wing), 20 AS, 8 Def
14/0 Abel: 28 HP, 25 Atk (+1), 13 AS, 9 Def

Thief 9 (Silver Sword): 30 HP, 21 (22) atk, 110 hit, 18 AS, 3 (4) def, 5 crit
Sheeda
- 2RKO's
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 2RKO'd
- Faces 1% crit

Armor 5 (Silver Lance): 35 HP, 26 (27) atk, 103 hit, 4 AS, 12 def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
Armor 7 (Silver Lance): 37 HP, 27 (28) atk, 103 hit, 4 AS, 12 def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
Sheeda
- ORKO's
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 2RKO'd

Archer (Silver Bow): 32 (33) HP, 23 (24) atk, 104 hit, 10 AS, 7 def, 0 (1) res, 4 crit
Sheeda
- 2RKO's
- OHKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 2RKO'd

Cav 5 (Silver Lance): 33 (34) HP, 26 (27) atk, 102 (103) hit, 9 (10) AS, 8 (9) def, 0 (1) res, 3 (4) crit
Cav 5 (Silver Sword): 33 (34) HP, 26 (27) atk, 102 (103) hit, 9 (10) AS, 8 (9) def, 0 (1) res, 3 (4) crit
Cav 7 (Forged Javelin): 35 HP, 25 atk, 103 hit, 10 AS, 9 def, 1 res, 4 crit
Sheeda
- ORKO's
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's w/ Horse Slayer
- 2RKO'd

Sniper 1 (Silver Bow): 40 HP, 23 atk, 114 hit, 15 (16) AS, 8 def, 3 res, 12 crit
Sheeda
- 2RKO's
- ORKO'd

Abel
- 3RKO's
- ORKO'd

Wyvern 1 (Silver Lance): 37 (38) HP, 26 (27) atk, 103 hit, 14 AS, 10 def, 3 res, 4 crit
Sheeda
- 2RKO's
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 3RKO's
- 2RKO'd

Peg 5 (Silver Lance): 33 HP, 23 (24) atk, 102 hit, 14 (15) AS, 6 def, 7 res, 3 crit
(Forged Javelin): 33 HP, 21 (22) atk, 102 hit, 14 (15) AS, 6 def, 7 res, 3 crit
Sheeda
- 2RKO's
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 3RKO'd

Horseman 1 (Silver Bow): 33 HP, 22 atk, 107 hit, 14 (15) AS, 6 def, 3 res, 6 crit
Horseman 5 (Silver Bow): 35 HP, 22 atk, 108 hit, 16 AS, 6 (7) def, 4 res, 6 crit
Sheeda
- ORKO's
- ORKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's w/ Ridersbane
- 2RKO'd

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Chapter 16

NOTE: Unlike the Hardin comparison, Abel goes Dragon Knight

20/1 Shiida: 28 HP, 25/36 (+2) Atk (Silver/Wing), 20 AS, 14 Def
20/1 Abel: 34 HP, 31 Atk (Silver), 17 AS, 13 Def

Horseman 6 (Silver Bow): 36 HP, 22 atk, 108 hit, 16 AS, 6 (7) def, 3 (4) res, 6 crit
Horseman 8 (Killer Bow): 37 HP, 22 (23) atk, 118 (119) hit, 16 (17) AS, 7 def, 4 res, 27 crit
Sheeda
- ORKO's
- ORKO'd

Abel
- OHKO's with Ridersbane if 6 Def, but leaves at 1 HP if 7 Def.
- ORKO'd

Wyvern (Silver Lance): 42 HP, 28 atk, 103 hit, 16 AS, 11 (12) def, 3 (4) res, 4 crit
12 mt Ridersbane: 42 HP, 27 atk, 103 hit, 16 AS, 11 (12) def, 3 (4) res, 4 crit
13 mt Poleax: 42 HP, 26 atk, 103 hit, 16 AS, 11 (12) def, 3 (4) res, 4 crit
Sheeda
- 2RKO's
- 3RKO'd

Abel
- 3RKO's
- 3RKO'd

Hero (Silver Sword): 40 (41) HP, 28 atk, 115 (116) hit, 17 (18) AS, 9 (10) def, 3 (4) res, 7 ( crit
Thunder Sword: 40 (41) HP, 19 atk, 125 (126) hit, 17 (18) AS, 9 (10) def, 3 (4) res, 7 ( crit
Sheeda
- 3RKOs
- 3RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's
- 3RKO'd

Cav 6 (12 mt Ridersbane): 34 HP, 26 atk, 104 hit, 11 AS, 8 def, 1 res, 4 crit
Cav 8 (Silver Sword): 35 (36) HP, 28 atk, 109 (110) hit, 11 (12) AS, 9 (10) def, 0 (1) res, 4 (5) crit
Forged Javelin: 35 (36) HP, 26 atk, 104 (105) hit, 11 (12) AS, 9 (10) def, 0 (1) res, 4 (5) crit
Cav 10 (11 mt Armorslayer): 37 HP, 27 (28) atk, 110 (111) hit, 11 (12) AS, 10 def, 0 (1) res, 5 crit
12 mt Ridersbane: 37 HP, 27 (28) atk, 105 (106) hit, 11 (12) AS, 10 def, 0 (1) res, 5 crit
Sheeda
- ORKOs
- 3RKO'd

Abel
- ORKO's with Ridersbane
- 3RKO'd

Paladin (Silver Lance): 42 (43) HP, 29 atk, 107 (108) hit, 14 (15) AS, 10 def, 7 res, 6 crit
Sheeda
- ORKOs
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKO's with Ridersbane
- 3RKO'd

General (Silver Lance): 45 (46) HP, 29 atk, 105 (106) hit, 9 AS, 15 (16) def, 3 (4) res, 5 crit
Sheeda
- ORKOs
- 2RKO'd

Abel
- 2RKOs
- 3RKO'd

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I am thinking Sheeda > Hardin > Abel. I'm not seeing anything Abel is doing spectacularly that Hardin isn't already capable of doing.

EDIT: Whoh @ Int's playthrough thread:

EDIT: Icon on Draug would have been good, but Icon on Caeda has a purpose, too. It's for possible Devil Axe usage when she's a Draco and has D Axes. I figure that since she'll max LCK around --/12, the chance to suicide will be low enough to chance around save points, and 17mt is mini-Hauteclere without needing A-rank.