Fire Emblem Genesis

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Avoid

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1 Avoid on Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:14 pm

This is just something of curiosity to me, rather than me trying to boost someone, unintentional hype or no. Suppose it's a question I wouldn't mind if it were answered.

Let's say you had decent durability. You aren't exactly a tank, but it takes more than 2 shots to kill you. What then?

Reliable avoid is hard to come by. Even Mia has a hard time pulling it off with her ridiculous speed and luck AND an earth support. What's your average schmuck to do?

Well it makes me wonder. You might not have reliable avoid to dodge like you're a monster, but what if you could just get as close to reducing enemy hit to around the 50s? It's not reliable, but it would be stupid to assume that never dodges ever. Just a a flip of the coin, and you have an extra player phase, and the more you land heads, the more player phases you get. Reliable avoid is reliable because it scores heads so many times, that the player phases stack up to be converted to enemy phases, over and over again. However, this is "Decent avoid", and I think it's fair to say that if you have it, it should be measured.

Let's take an example. Boyd takes 4 hits to get killed by random mob. 3 Guys attack him, he can reduce them to generally 50 hit (just go with it, please? It's just an example). It's fair to assume there is a good chance one of these attacks will miss. This would allow him to go off and bitchslap someone else, while someone is free to pick up his scraps.

So while it's not reliable, it's still the sort of avoid that helps a slight bit in the durability department, as it's enough to make a difference at times. I started to notice this in FEDS, when everyone has crap avoid, and has to depend on the weapon triangle and whatever supports they can net to get this sort of avoid.

Thoughts?

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2 Re: Avoid on Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:52 pm

This sort of thing is basically one of the justifications for a BoydxOscar support. Earth with his brother actually allows Boyd to coinflip a lot of things, and he has the HP buffer to make it a worthwhile tactic.

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3 Re: Avoid on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:42 pm

I seem to have missed this topic.

What exactly are you trying to say? It's not as if we've been passing ~50% hit rates as "Oh, that guy never dodges." It's taken into account, like Interceptor already mentioned, for things like BoydxOscar and likewise affects the chance of death. For example, being 3HKOd at 50% gives a unit the following death chances in x number of rounds:
3 = 0.125
4 = 0.3125
5 = 0.5
6 = 0.65625
7 = 0.7734375
8 = 0.85546875
9 = 0.91015625
10 = 0.9453125

Of course, 12.5% chance of death in 3 rounds is nothing amazing, but depending on the rest of the team it can be good or bad. It's all a matter of where it's being applied.

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4 Re: Avoid on Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:04 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:I seem to have missed this topic.

What exactly are you trying to say? It's not as if we've been passing ~50% hit rates as "Oh, that guy never dodges." It's taken into account, like Interceptor already mentioned, for things like BoydxOscar and likewise affects the chance of death. For example, being 3HKOd at 50% gives a unit the following death chances in x number of rounds:
3 = 0.125
4 = 0.3125
5 = 0.5
6 = 0.65625
7 = 0.7734375
8 = 0.85546875
9 = 0.91015625
10 = 0.9453125

Of course, 12.5% chance of death in 3 rounds is nothing amazing, but depending on the rest of the team it can be good or bad. It's all a matter of where it's being applied.


I more look at it from a "not needing healing" thing. If a unit is 4RKOd, it's not every turn he's going to face 3 enemies. Sometimes only 2. If he faces 3 enemies, the chance of evading twice (or thrice) is decent. And if he only faces 2 enemies next turn, then he doesn't need healing. It's not something to count on for keeping a unit alive, of course, but it is something that used carefully can be useful frequently enough to matter.

Also, for taking counters. If Boyd dodges just one out of three attacks while being 4RKOd, then he can attack something on player phase without worrying about dying (provided it has no crit or can't counter). This can be useful at times. Like, say, some enemy with 1-2 range. It attacks, say, Mia/Janaff/Ulki/Ranulf on enemy phase and takes no damage in return. Boyd attacks it, takes a counter. Soren walks up and KOs the thing. Your heavy hitters aren't forced to attack the thing and so they move forward. Even if Boyd got hit on the counter, he's not in range of any enemies.

^this list is far from exhaustive.


So while getting someone into single digit hit range is better, if there are no extra units that can be brought that low then a unit with decent durability (not Haar level, but not Mist level) that can easily get a support has an advantage in that respect.

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5 Re: Avoid on Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:28 pm

Sorry for being away the whole week, long story.

Anyways, to respond to Red, I suppose my response should be that I haven't really seen it put to practice in any tier list as of yet. If it was assumed, I guess it was just a sort of mystery to me.

So, aside from the stated Boyd, who else has this sort of advantage? And are we just counting the Greil Mercs on these advantages, as usual?

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6 Re: Avoid on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:32 pm

are we just counting the Greil Mercs on these advantages, as usual?

Of course. We all love the GMs and detest all the other units with a burning passion that would normally only be for people that hurt our loved ones.



Seriously, though, who else? 3-6, 3-12, 3-13 aren't really kind to this kind of thing. Part 1 nobody with decent concrete durability even approaches coinflips. Well, Zihark at times, but he's already high tier based mostly on the strength of his part 1. Nailah faces low hit rates against her, but with 32 def and as many hp as she has, do we care?

Marcia in 2-P I'd prefer she gets hit more, to be honest, considering she's like the only thing there for Elincia to heal most of the time. My poor Elincia just twiddled her thumbs sometimes because Marcia decided to dodge. Then in part 4 we have lots of physics and at least two C+ staff healers for all but 4-2 and royals. I'm not sure how much it matters anymore if you don't need healing as much because there is now plenty of healing to go around and you are probably using small groups of units in order to focus exp as much on units going to the tower as you can without going slower.

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7 Re: Avoid on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:32 pm

Sorry, just every time I argue here, it tends to end up boiling down to "the mercs are more important, so shut yo goddamn ass up"....Or I'm just incredibly cynical, pessimistic, negative, and sort of a dickhead because the game always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Anyways, there are actually plenty capable in part 1 who can reduce it to coin flips, the same reason there are people in the GM who can-We got Earth support in the form of Nolan. Basically, whoever supports Nolan is gonna be able to do this, Nolan himself if it's the right element. But hey, we already figured Nolan's a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything.

Thus, brings me to a point-who best to support Nolan to help him be this coinflip unit?

Well, let's not get ahead of myself, I suppose I should show proof.

Chapter 1-5, let's say Nolan's around level 13, sound reasonable? 4 chapters of basically being the best guy next to Sothe, IS the best guy for 2 of those chapters, 1 of the chapters has Laguz, I could probably say 14 and I wouldn't be too far off. Let's go with 13 though, to be fair. Let's give him a C with uhhhh, anybody.

He would have about a base of 33, a C gives him 7-12, so 40-45.

2x Soldier lvl 12 (Javelin)
HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7
1x Soldier lvl 13 (Javelin)
HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

4x Fighter lvl 11 (Steel Axe)
HP 30, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7
1x Fighter lvl 11 (Iron Axe)
HP 30, Atk 23, AS 12, Hit 109, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7
1x Fighter lvl 11 (Hand Axe)
HP 30, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 99, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7
1x Fighter lvl 12 (Steel Axe)
HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

Comes pretty close with these guys at least. Even funnier, Aran at 10 with a C support from the Nols is packing 40 avoid, like Nolan with a non-avoid support.

Level 10 Eddie (I still think this is selling him a bit short by this chapter...) has 41 avoid at base, a C witht he Nols giving him 48. If he were say, 12? He'd have 51 avoid. It does reduce some to near 50, and ranged guys to RNG favor to the player. Yeah it's not reliable, but it makes me realize just how much like FEDS part 1 is like. Most of your guys are getting 2RKOd for a majority of it, yet enemy density for the most part is quite low. The difference is, this game gives you supports to help cope, while FEDS supports don't really kick in unless you're Ogma's psycho group. I'd say it's best to minimize while you can, as to get as much luck as you can muster to your side. Since everyone is getting 2RKOd mostly, it's only safe to assume that those with the most avoid wins, unless you're one of the god modders. Thing about Aran is that for the most part, he isn't really able to pull off credible durability until later into part 1 where we get units like Nailah, BK and the killtrio.

1-6-1, I'd say B with Eddie and Nolan is possible for the 15. Aran might not be there quite yet. What would they have?

Assuming Nolan at 14, Eddie at 12, 59 avoid for Eddie, 51 for Nolan.

1x Fighter lvl 11 (Hand Axe)
HP 30, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 99, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7
1x Fighter lvl 12 (Steel Axe)
HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 9, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7
1x Fighter lvl 13 (Steel Axe)
HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 108, Avo 31, DEF 9, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 11 (Steel Bow)
HP 26, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 34, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8
1x Archer lvl 13 (Steel Bow)
HP 27, Atk 25, AS 14, Hit 118, Avo 36, DEF 10, RES 5, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance)
HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Thunder Nage lvl 13 (Thunder)
HP 22, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 111, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7



1x Armor Sword lvl 12 (Steel Sword)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 11, Hit 114, Avo 31, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10
1x Armor Sword lvl 14 (Wind Edge)
HP 32, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 92, Avo 32, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10
1x Armor Axe lvl 13 (Hand Axe)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 34, DEF 15, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 10
1x Armor Lance lvl 13 (Javelin)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 11, Hit 97, Avo 32, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10


1x Thunder Mage lvl 14 (Thunder, Turn 1, west)
HP 22, Atk, 17, AS 12, Hit 111, Avo 31, DEF 5, RES 11, Crit 11, Ddg 7
1x Thunder Mage lvl 14 (Elthunder, Turn 1, west)
HP 22, Atk, 19, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 5, RES 11, Crit 16, Ddg 7
2x Pegasus knight lvl 13 (Steel Lance, Turn 1, one north, one south)
HP 24, Atk 18, AS 10, Hit 114, Avo 32, DEF 10, RES 9, Crit 5, Ddg 12
1x Archer lvl 11 (Steel Bow, turn 1, northeast)
HP 26, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 34, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8
1x Armor Axe lvl 12 (droppable Hammer, Turn 1, northeast)
HP 32, Atk 27, AS 8, Hit 93, Avo 25, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 10
1x Armor Sword lvl 13 (droppable Steel Sword, Turn 1, northeast)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 12, Hit 116, Avo 33, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 9
1x Armor Sword lvl 12 (Steel Sword, Turn 1, northeast)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 11, Hit 114, Avo 31, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

2x Pegasus knight lvl 12 (Steel Lance, Turn 2, west)
HP 23, Atk 18, AS 9, Hit 114, Avo 30, DEF 9, RES 8, Crit 5, Ddg 12

1x Pegasus knight lvl 14 (Steel Lance, Turn 3, east)
HP 23, Atk 19, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 35, DEF 10, RES 9, Crit 5, Ddg 13
1x Pegasus knight lvl 14 (Javelin, Turn 3, east)
HP 23, Atk 16, AS 13, Hit 101, Avo 38, DEF 10, RES 9, Crit 5, Ddg 13

2x Pegasus knight lvl 14 (Javelin, Turn 6, south)
HP 23, Atk 16, AS 13, Hit 101, Avo 38, DEF 10, RES 9, Crit 5, Ddg 13

1x Pegasus knight lvl 14 (Javelin, Turn 9, norh)
HP 24, Atk 16, AS 13, Hit 101, Avo 38, DEF 10, RES 9, Crit 5, Ddg 13
1x Pegasus knight lvl 14 (Steel Lance, Turn 9, north)
HP 24, Atk 19, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 35, DEF 10, RES 9, Crit 5, Ddg 13
1x Pegasus knight lvl 13 (Javelin, Turn 9, north)
HP 23, Atk 16, AS 13, Hit 101, Avo 38, DEF 10, RES 9, Crit 5, Ddg 13
1x Soldier lvl 13 (droppable Steel Lance, Turn 9, northwest)
HP 28, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 114, Avo 36, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 8
1x Soldier lvl 12 (Javelin, Turn 9, northwest)
HP 27, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 96, Avo 32, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

Plenty of coin flips to me. Rather beneficial to Eddie, as we know that Eddie is mainly an offense guy, so allowing him more player phase is always nice.

I forget, wasn't there something special with supports on 1-6? I won't go ahead with the A support for Eddie until I figure it out, but let's check a level 15 Aran at 1-7 with a B from Nolan. 36-38 base avoid, er...I think it was 25 avoid? It's somewhere around there, so it's about 61-63 avoid.

1x Fighter lvl 15 (Hand Axe)
HP 33, Atk 26, AS 13, Hit 106, Avo 34, DEF 11, RES 3, Crit 7, Ddg 8
1x Fighter lvl 16 (Steel Axe)
HP 34, Atk 28, AS 15, Hit 114, Avo 39, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 9

4x Soldier (Steel Lance, two have droppable Door keys)
HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 114, Avo 36, DEF 12, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Fire Mage lvl 14 (Elfire)
HP 22, Atk 20, AS 11, Hit 114, Avo 29, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 5, Ddg 7
2x Fire Mage lvl 16 (Elfire)
HP 24, Atk 21, AS 13, Hit 117, Avo 34, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 6, Ddg 8
1x Wind Mage lvl 15 (Elwind)
HP 24, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 119, Avo 31, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 14 (Steel Bow)
HP 27, Atk 25, AS 13, Hit 119, Avo 35, DEF 11, RES 5, Crit 7, Ddg 9
2x Archer lvl 16 (Steel Bow)
HP 28, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9
1x Archer lvl 15 (Iron Longbow)
HP 28, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 106, Avo 37, DEF 11, RES 5, Crit 8, Ddg 9

2x Armor Axe lvl 16 (Hand Axe, one has stealable Vulnerary)
HP 33, Atk 25, AS 14, Hit 109, Avo 39, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 11
2x Armor Lance lvl 15 (Steel Lance)
HP 33, Atk 26, AS 13, Hit 117, Avo 37, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 11
1x Armor Lance lvl 14 (Steel Lance)
HP 33, Atk 25, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 35, DEF 15, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 11
1x Armor Lance lvl 13 (Javelin)
HP 32, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 97, Avo 32, DEF 15, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

1x Djur (Armor Sword boss, Storm Sword, stealable Vulnerary)
HP 38, Atk 31, AS 13, Hit 83, Ao 33, DEF 20, RES 9, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 14 (Steel Lance, Turn 1, southeast)
HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 116, Avo 36, DEF 12, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 8
1x Fire Mage lvl 15 (Elfire, Turn 1, southeast)
HP 23, Atk 19, AS 12, Hit 117, Avo 32, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 6, Ddg 8

2x Soldier lvl 16 (Steel Lance, Turn 9, southwest)
HP 31, Atk 26, AS 15, Hit 118, Avo 38, DEF 13, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 8
3x Archer lvl 16 (Steel Bow, Turn 9, two southwest, one south)
HP 29, Atk 27, AS 15, Hit 121, Avo 39, DEF 12, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9
2x Fighter lvl 16 (Hand Axe, Turn 9, south)
HP 32, Atk 27, AS 15, Hit 106, Avo 38, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

2x Armor Lance lvl 16 (Javelin, Turn 11, northeast)
HP 35, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 102, Avo 37, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 11

1x Fire Mage lvl 16 (Elfire, Turn 11, northeast)
HP 25, ATK 21, AS 13, Hit 117, Avo 34, DEF 6, RES 13, Crit 6, Ddg 8

I dunno, looking pretty nice to me...Woops, that's Nolan! *Rechecks Aran* Aran at 15 would have about 32 avoid, so it's not like I was far off. Nolan would be what, 16, 17? 38 avoid, so basically what I just showed you didn't change.

1-8, Eddie at 16 would have about 52, so 22+ is 74. Nolan would have about 66.

2x Bandit lvl 14 (Venin Axe)
HP 39, Atk 21, AS 15, Hit 114, Avo, 36, DEF 15, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 8
2x Bandit lvl 15 (Venin Axe)
HP 39, Atk 22, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9
1x Bandit lvl 15 (Steel Axe)
HP 39, Atk 23, AS 14, Hit 116, Avo 37, DEF 15, RES 7, Crit 8, Ddg 9
1x Bandit lvl 16 (Hand Axe)
HP 39, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 115, Avo 43, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 8, Ddg 11
1x Bandit lvl 16 (Venin Axe)
HP 39, Atk 22, AS 18, Hit 119, Avo 45, DEF 16, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 9

3x Soldier lvl 16 (Steel Lance)
HP 30, Atk 25, AS 15, Hit 116, Avo, 38, DEF 13, RES 8, Crit, 7, Ddg 8
1x Soldier lvl 15 (Steel Lance)
HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 116, Avo, 36, DEF 12, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 8
1x Soldier lvl 16 (Javelin)
HP 29, Atk 22, AS 15, Hit 101, Avo, 38, DEF 13, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 8

2x Priest lvl 15 (Heal)
HP 25, Atk --, AS 11, Hit --, Avo 37, DEF 6, RES 15, Crit --, Ddg 15

1x Dracoknight lvl 15 (Steel Axe)
HP 31, Atk 27, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 15, RES 0, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x Thunder Mage lvl 16 (Elthunder)
HP 24, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 110, Avo 33, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 17, Ddg 7
2x Wind Mage lvl 14 (Elwind)
HP 23, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 117, Avo 31, DEF 5, RES 11, Crit 5, Ddg 7
1x Wind Mage lvl 16 (Elwind)
HP 24, Atk 21, AS 13, Hit 121, Avo 33, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 6, Ddg 7
1x Fire Mage lvl 17 (Elfire)
HP 25, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 117, Avo 32, DEF 7, RES 12, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Radmin lvl 1 (Thunder Sage boss, Elthunder, locked to Normal biorhythm)
HP 30, Atk 25, AS 16, Hit 120, Avo 43, DEF 11, RES 15, Crit 18, Ddg 11

Reinforcements:

1x Bandit lvl 15 (Venin Axe, Turn 1, west)
HP 39, Atk 22, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Bandit lvl 16 (Hand Axe, Turn 2, south)
HP 39, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 115, Avo 43, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 8, Ddg 11
1x Bandit lvl 16 (Venin Axe, Turn 2, south)
HP 40, Atk 22, AS 17, Hit 122, Avo 44, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 8, Ddg 10

1x Bandit lvl 15 (Venin Axe, Turn 3, west)
HP 39, Atk 22, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Dracoknight lvl 15 (Steel Axe, Turn 4, south)
HP 31, Atk 27, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 15, RES 0, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Thunder Mage lvl 16 (Elthunder, Turn 5, west)
HP 24, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 110, Avo 33, DEF 6, RES 12, Crit 17, Ddg 7
1x Fire Mage lvl 16 (Elfire, Turn 5, west)
HP 24, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 117, Avo 32, DEF 6, RES 13, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Dracoknight lvl 16 (Steel Axe, Turn 7, east)
HP 32, Atk 27, AS 13, Hit 108, Avo 33, DEF 15, RES 0, Crit 6, Ddg 7
1x Dracoknight lvl 16 (Hand Axe, turn 7, east)
HP 32, Atk 25, AS 13, Hit 101, Avo 33, DEF 15, RES 0, Crit 6, Ddg 7

Lookin' great for Eddie, really. Still pretty decent for Nolan.

Howzabout the dreaded 1-E?

Eddie would have about 55+22 avoid, Aran would have 35+35 (Yeah, clearly Aran is better later on, the avoid gap between him and Eddie is 7!?)


1x Fighter lvl 17 (Steel Axe)
HP 34, Atk 29, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 51, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8
1x Fighter lvl 19 (Steel Axe)
HP 35, Atk 30, AS 16, Hit 131, Avo 56, DEF 12, RES 5, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Myrmidon lvl 18 (Steel Sword)
HP 29, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 145, Avo 64, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 14, Ddg 9
1x Myrmidon lvl 18 (Killing Edge)
HP 28, Atk 20, AS 18, Hit 146, Avo 61, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 44, Ddg 10

2x Soldier lvl 18 (Steel Lance)
HP 32, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 134, Avo 56, DEF 14, RES 9, Crit 7, Ddg 9
1x Soldier lvl 19 (Steel Lance, droppable chest key)
HP 32, Atk 26, AS 17, Hit 134, Avo 58, DEF 14, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 9
1x Soldier lvl 18 (Javelin)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 119, Avo 56, DEF 13, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 9
1x Soldier lvl 19 (Javelin)
HP 33, Atk 24, AS 17, Hit 121, Avo 58, DEF 13, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 9
1x Soldier lvl 19 (Steel Greatlance)
HP 32, Atk 31, AS 16, Hit 124, Avo 56, DEF 14, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 9

3x Archer lvl 18 (Steel Bow)
HP 29, Atk 28, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 56, DEF 13, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9
1x Archer lvl 19 (Steel Bow)
HP 30, Atk 28, AS 17, Hit 141, Avo 57, DEF 13, RES 6, Crit 9, Ddg 10
1x Archer lvl 18 (Iron Longbow)
HP 29, Atk 26, AS 15, Hit 125, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 6, Crit 9, Ddg 9
1x Archer lvl 19 (Steel Longbow)
HP 29, Atk 31, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 57, DEF 12, RES 7, Crit 9, Ddg 10

2x Wind Mage lvl 19 (Elwind)
HP 27, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 139, Avo 51, DEF 7, RES 13, Crit 6, Ddg 8
2x Thunder Mage lvl 19 (Elthunder)
HP 26, Atk 22, AS 13, Hit 126, Avo 49, DEF 7, RES 13, Crit 17, Ddg 8
1x Fire Mage vl 18 (Elfire)
HP 26, Atk 20, AS 14, Hit 134, Avo 51, DEF 7, RES 14, Crit 6, Ddg 8
1x Fire Mage lvl 19 (Meteor, secondary weapon Elfire, AS is 13 w/Elfire)
HP 26, Atk 23, AS 2, Hit 118, Avo 28, DEF 7, RES 14, Crit 6, Ddg 9

1x Armor Sword lvl 18 (Steel Blade)
HP 36, Atk 31, AS 14, Hit 115, Avo 54, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 11
1x Armor Axe lvl 18 (Hand Axe)
HP 37, Atk 27, AS 14, Hit 124, Avo 54, DEF 18, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 11
1x Armor Sword lvl 19 (Wind Edge)
HP 36, Atk 25, AS 15, Hit 112, Avo 56, DEF 18, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 11
1x Armor Axe lvl 18 (Steel Poleax)
HP 36, Atk 32, AS 12, Hit 112, Avo 50, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 11
1x Armor Lance lvl 19 (Steel Lance)
HP 37, Atk 28, AS 14, Hit 137, Avo 55, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 12
1x Armor Lance lvl 18 (Javelin)
HP 36, Atk 25, AS 14, Hit 119, Avo 54, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 11
1x Armor Lance lvl 18 (Steel Greatlance)
HP 36, Atk 33, AS 15, Hit 125, Avo 57, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 12

1x Priest lvl 18 (Physic, Heal)
HP 25, Atk --, AS 12, Hit --, Avo 56, DEF 7, RES 16, Crit --, Ddg 17
1x Priest lvl 18 (Physic, Heal)
HP 25, Atk --, AS 12, Hit --, Avo 56, DEF 7, RES 16, Crit --, Ddg 17

1x Jarod level 4 (Halberdier boss, Short Spear, three authority stars, stealable Concoction)
HP 39, Atk 30, AS 19, Hit 120, Avo 63, DEF 18, RES 15, Crit 15, Ddg 10

Reinforcements:

1x Fighter lvl 18 (Hand Axe, Turn 2, southwest)
HP 34, Atk 26, AS 15, Hit 124, Avo 54, DEF 11, RES 5, Crit 7, Ddg 9
1x Wind Mage lvl 18 (Elwind, Turn 2, southwest)
HP 25, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 139, Avo 49, DEF 6, RES 13, Crit 6, Ddg 8
1x Fire Mage lvl 18 (Elfire, Turn 2, southwest)
HP 24, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 133, Avo 50, DEF 6, RES 15, Crit 6, Ddg 9
1x Thunder Mage lvl 18 (Elthunder, Turn 2, southwest)
HP 24, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 126, Avo 49, DEF 7, RES 12, Crit 17, Ddg 8

2x Fighter lvl 18 (Venin Axe, Turn 3, east)
HP 35, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 133, Avo 55, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Myrmidon lvl 19 (Steel Blade, Turn 5, west)
HP 29, Atk 25, AS 15, Hit 124, Avo 55, DEF 10, RES 7, Crit 13, Ddg 10
1x Myrmidon lvl 18 (Wind Edge, Turn 5, west)
HP 29, Atk 19, AS 18, Hit 119, Avo 61, DEF 10,RES 7, Crit 13, Ddg 10

1x Fighter lvl 18 (Hand Axe, Turn 6, southwest)
HP 34, Atk 26, AS 15, Hit 124, Avo 54, DEF 11, RES 5, Crit 7, Ddg 9
1x Wind Mage lvl 18 (Elwind, Turn 6, southwest)
HP 26, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 139, Avo 49, DEF 6, RES 13, Crit 6, Ddg 8
1x Fire Mage lvl 18 (Elfire, Turn 6, southwest)
HP 25, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 133, Avo 50, DEF 6, RES 15, Crit 6, Ddg 9
1x Thunder Mage lvl 18 (Elthunder, Turn 6, southwest)
HP 25, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 126, Avo 49, DEF 7, RES 12, Crit 17, Ddg 8

2x Fighter lvl 18 (Venin Axe, Turn 9, east)
HP 35, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 133, Avo 55, DEF 11, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Armor Sword lvl 19 (Steel Blade, deployed when a unit reaches top floor, north)
HP 36, Atk 31, AS 14, Hit 117, Avo 54, DEF 17, REs 7, Crit 6, Ddg 11
2x Armor Axe lvl 19 (Hand Axe, deployed when a unit reaches top floor, north)
HP 37, Atk 27, AS 14, Hit 124, Avo 54, DEF 18, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 11

Yeah, very few actually get above the 50s, some are even still in the 40s. Methinks y'all bitch too much. This is Aran pulling this off this sort of avoid, I should note.

Nolan at this point would have about 45 base avoid, so 67 with Eddie, 80 with Aran. Yeeeaaahhh...I suppose Nolan's a better leader than Jarod, most definitely better than Miccy.

So it's a bit iffy at first, but I think it does show some results for the DB into part 1.

Perhaps part 3 might not be too significant, simply because it's so short. But there are still effects. 20/1 Nolan with Aran would have about 47-50 base avoid+35 would give about 82-85.


Cat lvl 14
HP 41, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 136, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 6
Cat lvl 15
HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 7
Cat lvl 16
HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7
Cat lvl 17
HP 43, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 52, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 8
Tiger lvl 14
HP 48, Atk 32, AS 16, Hit 132, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 4, Crit 9, Ddg 6
Tiger lvl 15
HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6
Tiger lvl 16
HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7
Tiger lvl 17
HP 51-52, Atk 41, AS 18, Hit 141, Avo 43, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Not reliable, but again he's keeping them in the 50s. I know Nolan's already a god, but it shows he's capable. 18-1 Eddie with A Nolan has about 80 avoid, Caladbolg adding was it 5 or 6? Holy crap, 8? Well, seems Eddie can bend them down to the 40s.

Really, how's that going unnoticed? I mean, it's no ZiharkxVolug (the hotness alone repels the enemy advance, as you dare not touch godliness), but it's better than just letting them slap you in the face, is it not?

Aran would have about 38-41 avoid base, so about 73-75 avoid. Not quite as good, but he IS the one pulling off actual durability by now...

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8 Re: Avoid on Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:50 pm

Sorry, just every time I argue here, it tends to end up boiling down to "the mercs are more important, so shut yo goddamn ass up"....Or I'm just incredibly cynical, pessimistic, negative, and sort of a dickhead because the game always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
The latter.

Eddie would have about 55+22 avoid, Aran would have 35+35 (Yeah, clearly Aran is better later on, the avoid gap between him and Eddie is 7!?)
23 avoid for Edward and 30 avoid for Aran from Earth. I don't mean to sound irritated, but haven't you made this mistake before? Check here again.

Really, how's that going unnoticed?
It hasn't been. He still faces fairly significant chances of death after just two rounds on top of having a somewhat difficult time actually getting there. It's not as if you've discovered how he can be better than anyone else, since others can either get into 3HKO range or face lower Hit chances.

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9 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:06 am

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
The latter.

Yeah, sounds about right.


23 avoid for Edward and 30 avoid for Aran from Earth. I don't mean to sound irritated, but haven't you made this mistake before? Check here again.

On the bright side, I wasn't THAT far off.


It hasn't been. He still faces fairly significant chances of death after just two rounds on top of having a somewhat difficult time actually getting there. It's not as if you've discovered how he can be better than anyone else, since others can either get into 3HKO range or face lower Hit chances.

Before I respond to this, who is this referring to, exactly? Eddie?

Well, it does let him put his offense to more frequent use, and offense is Eddie's shinier aspect.

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10 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:18 am

Basically, the problem here is that most other units aren't being 2RKOd by everything, or when he is 3RKOd they are 4RKOd or better.

If everyone was 2RKOd, then Ed needing healing less frequently than others would certainly make him more durable and thus more worthy of use.

In 1-4 we (most of us, anyway) already consider Ed to be the 3rd best tank. This has nothing to do with the C Nolan he can have at this point, or any avo he might have from being level 7 or 8.

In 1-5, we have a blitz going on for turn 1 and 2 to clear out everything nearby, then it's onto the ledges where everybody is cutting it under 50%. He might knock things a little lower, but not reliable enough to not have to heal him at all. Also, Nolan, Sothe, Volug.

1-6. Basically one healer, somewhat wide open space but thickets everywhere to restrict move. He can get targeted by enough units at once that it's best to just stick with Sothe, Tauroneo, Volug, Jill, Zihark, and by now possibly Aran.

1-7. LEA shows up and completely ruins Ed's day.

1-8. Well, units are separated, so he's only worrying about Nolan, Aran, Sothe, Zihark being more durable, but with so few unit slots? Keep in mind one probably goes to Laura.

1-E. Yeah, Nailah, Muarim, Vika, Zihark, Jill, Volug, Tormod. Ilyana for the wing and some other choice items. Poor poor Eddie.

(Most of those beat his offence, too.)

Reducing stuff to coinflips when all the other units stomp your durability into dust just means that he is slightly mitigating his durability loss. He comes nowhere near canceling it out.

Now, it's nice and all that if he's high enough leveled then sometimes when he attacks something he doesn't immediately need healing afterwards, but that's not exactly something spectacular.



You know, if it wasn't for all the other units around in part 1, there wouldn't be a "screw the tier 1's" mentality. And in fact, the ones like Jill and Nolan that can become something while not stinking up the place (relatively speaking) are still quite high on the list. Especially when you consider their initial part 4 performance.


Also, while almost all your units will have a small chance to crit in 3-6 and 3-13 and thus cause problems (Laguz have really low luck), Ed has the problem that he has +10 crit from his class, at least 20 skill, and his best weapon for avo and damage (Caladbolg) has an additional +5 crit. He's looking at 25 crit against units that hover around 7 luck.

When you are 2RKOd, having an 18% chance to blick something away is a problem. At least, when everyone else is around 3%. I'm not sure if he 4HKOs tigers with Caladbolg, but if he does then he has a 32.76% chance to screw himself over against them. He also probably 3HKOs cats, so he's at 18% with Caladbolg for them. And we know he can't take cat + tiger, and it takes time before cat + cat doesn't KO him.

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11 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:39 am

So Nolan is high tier solely for the time he's "necessary"? His utility isn't THAT huge, as important as it is. I mean, once punks like Zihark, the Taurbomb, Sothe, Volug, BK, Nailah and hte killtrio show up, what gives him the advantage? If the earth support means little simply because the killtrio show up, why do we even consider Nolan gets away with anything he does?

It's sort of that argument that's been had on general emblem. I mean, it's great to just measure positive, but apparently it takes no account of the fact that people stop being useful. Nolan's just as obsolete when the fastforward buttons show up. Yet, he's in high. I suppose my problem now is that the DB is too low, but rather they're so polarized. I say if there is a screw tier 1 mentality, all of them should be accounted for, not just the auto-crap ones. Even Aran's only real selling point is that he can take 1 more shot every now and then, which isn't even that impressive. It's helpful, but he didn't just suddenly become lord tank.

Basically the suggestion is this. All tier 1 DB not Leo, Laura, Eddie and Miccy need to drop (since we already account for Leo and Eddie being tier 1, the others actually are that important in some form). If we're gonna punish the DB twice for being the DB, let's be consistent and punish all of them. Basically it's saying "Ok, they have positive, perhaps even important utility. However, there IS a reason we stop using them eventually".

Speaking of Aran, doesn't he have the same problem post promotion when it comes to crit? He's not packing a Caladbolg crit weapon, but the problem is still there, except Eddie at least is able to avoid doubles from cats, along with avoiding crits from them too.

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12 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:07 am

Grandjackal wrote:So Nolan is high tier solely for the time he's "necessary"? His utility isn't THAT huge, as important as it is. I mean, once punks like Zihark, the Taurbomb, Sothe, Volug, BK, Nailah and hte killtrio show up, what gives him the advantage? If the earth support means little simply because the killtrio show up, why do we even consider Nolan gets away with anything he does?
I didn't look too closely at it, but Paperblade actually made a decent case (I think so from a glance, anyway) for Nolan being salvageable in part 4.

Anyway, Nolan is still quite helpful in part 3, and he's great in part 1 from 1-1 to 1-6. There's actually a reason to go through 1-7, 1-8, 1-E with him, and he's still decent in 1-8. Then he's nice in 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13. Then by 4-3/4/5 he's already fine. 4-P/1/2 he has a major hiccup, though that is what PB was denying exists, I suppose.

Basically, he doesn't need all of his chapters for that kind of a placement. Look at Reyson and his availability and compare to Nolan's "good" chapters. Besides, we already pushed him down a fair margin from where he used to be.



It's sort of that argument that's been had on general emblem. I mean, it's great to just measure positive, but apparently it takes no account of the fact that people stop being useful. Nolan's just as obsolete when the fastforward buttons show up. Yet, he's in high. I suppose my problem now is that the DB is too low, but rather they're so polarized. I say if there is a screw tier 1 mentality, all of them should be accounted for, not just the auto-crap ones. Even Aran's only real selling point is that he can take 1 more shot every now and then, which isn't even that impressive. It's helpful, but he didn't just suddenly become lord tank.
Doesn't Aran become quite tanky by level 14 or so? 15.9 defence. Basically 17 defence with a C anyone support. There's like, 3 units in 1-7 that 3RKO him, and the rest do worse. Like, 5RKO or even 6RKO. Some 4RKO, I suppose. Myrms double him, but still 4RKO (mostly) unless they crit. But critting isn't a big problem if you can plan for it. See, if they do crit, Aran is no less durable than Edward anyway. If you plan for him to not be critticaled, then sure, he might die on ya. But with planning*? Nowhere but in 1-4, I think.
*planning meaning only let him face enough attacks that if he is criticalled, say, twice, he won't die. That's good enough to still beat Ed's durability, and it is only on one enemy type.

Don't forget, though, Ed's problem isn't just his part 1 when the great ones show up, it's his bad part 3 on top of it. That's why units like Jill, Nolan, and Aran aren't hit as hard by the "screw the tier 1s" mentality. We simply aren't assuming a fast forward. They have a good part 3. Borderline great at times. Even without relying on the great ones, Ed still faces the problem where he's just not as good as the rest and he has trouble in part 3. And he still faces the problem where he needs agressive leveling just to keep doubling more than, like, 30% of the maps. Sometimes he has better than 30%, but not always. If he doubled everything like PoR Mia/Zihark, I wouldn't mind it so much. Reducing hit rates to 40s and 50s would mean that I could make use of his doubling and help to raise him. But I'd still run into his part 3 issues, so I'd like the laguz to all have A strike rather than S strike before I'd start considering Edward to be good.



Basically the suggestion is this. All tier 1 DB not Leo, Laura, Eddie and Miccy need to drop (since we already account for Leo and Eddie being tier 1, the others actually are that important in some form). If we're gonna punish the DB twice for being the DB, let's be consistent and punish all of them. Basically it's saying "Ok, they have positive, perhaps even important utility. However, there IS a reason we stop using them eventually".
Again, ignoring part 3. Part 3 is their bridge to part 4 utility. Without it, they feel pain. Like Ed.


Speaking of Aran, doesn't he have the same problem post promotion when it comes to crit? He's not packing a Caladbolg crit weapon, but the problem is still there, except Eddie at least is able to avoid doubles from cats, along with avoiding crits from them too.
Actually, Aran is in about the same boat as Nolan.

Aran gets a +5 crit on top of his 21 skill, so 15 crit soon to be 16 crit. Nolan has 19.7 skill so it may as well be 10 crit, but for Nolan to reach 3HKOd he needs Tarvos, which is also +5 crit. So he's at 15 crit as well.

8%, after enemy luck. Quite different from Ed's 18%, actually. And on top of it all, they won't get themselves killed for it if you keep them at full hp. To crit twice, and not dodge? .64% (crit twice) on top of whatever the chance of getting hit 3 times is. This is considerably less than Aran in 1-4. And that's assuming they 3HKO in the first place. If they 4HKO then it isn't a concern anyway. But I guess they probably 3HKO cats. Maybe not tigers, though. Anyway, their crit problem is less severe than Ed's, and like I said: Everyone has a crit problem in 3-6. But for these guys, if they only crit once they don't die.

Ed could remove Caladbolg and still have 13% crit. The only way to avoid a too high chance of suicide is to make sure he 4HKOs cats and 5HKOs tigers. Even then he has a 1.69% chance to double crit a tiger and is thus in more trouble than Aran and Nolan, though admittedly not by much. I suppose that combined with the 0% chance of trouble against cats and he's close to even with their chance of trouble. Still, preventing crit trouble would mean that his offence is quite bad and we may not be able to kill on player phase whatever he injured on enemy phase, which could lead to trouble.

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13 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:39 am

Narga_Rocks wrote:
I didn't look too closely at it, but Paperblade actually made a decent case (I think so from a glance, anyway) for Nolan being salvageable in part 4.

Anyway, Nolan is still quite helpful in part 3, and he's great in part 1 from 1-1 to 1-6. There's actually a reason to go through 1-7, 1-8, 1-E with him, and he's still decent in 1-8. Then he's nice in 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13. Then by 4-3/4/5 he's already fine. 4-P/1/2 he has a major hiccup, though that is what PB was denying exists, I suppose.

Basically, he doesn't need all of his chapters for that kind of a placement. Look at Reyson and his availability and compare to Nolan's "good" chapters. Besides, we already pushed him down a fair margin from where he used to be.

Who gives a shit if he's salvageable? He's not part of the efficiency equation if he needs to be salvaged. We got plenty of killers in part 4, so fuck him.


Doesn't Aran become quite tanky by level 14 or so? 15.9 defence. Basically 17 defence with a C anyone support. There's like, 3 units in 1-7 that 3RKO him, and the rest do worse. Like, 5RKO or even 6RKO. Some 4RKO, I suppose. Myrms double him, but still 4RKO (mostly) unless they crit. But critting isn't a big problem if you can plan for it. See, if they do crit, Aran is no less durable than Edward anyway. If you plan for him to not be critticaled, then sure, he might die on ya. But with planning*? Nowhere but in 1-4, I think.
*planning meaning only let him face enough attacks that if he is criticalled, say, twice, he won't die. That's good enough to still beat Ed's durability, and it is only on one enemy type.

I did acknowledge that Aran was beating Eddie later in part 1, thus why I didn't say they should be in the same tier. However, he is being beaten by Eddie early on until the later portions of part 1, which then experiences a hiccup in part 3 before picking back up again, then becoming ultimately useless part 4. How this defines upper mid in comparison is baffeling. Eddie can stay where he is, but at least drop Aran a tier. Raising tier 1s is apparently akin to wasting time on this list and game, so let's not waste time, shall we?


Don't forget, though, Ed's problem isn't just his part 1 when the great ones show up, it's his bad part 3 on top of it. That's why units like Jill, Nolan, and Aran aren't hit as hard by the "screw the tier 1s" mentality. We simply aren't assuming a fast forward.

Then let's treat the fastforwards like Jeigens and nothing more. But wait, we won't do that because...Yes, exactly, it goes against the list. You keep saying we assume the most efficient strategy, and clearly the best strategy is leaving the runts in the dust. I say let them. The runts might turn out to be...semi-decent at best apparently. It's not worth it when I can just skip the bullshit and get to the rest of the game, of which is the unfun process of watching the GM and the royals take care of everything else.


They have a good part 3. Borderline great at times. Even without relying on the great ones, Ed still faces the problem where he's just not as good as the rest and he has trouble in part 3. And he still faces the problem where he needs agressive leveling just to keep doubling more than, like, 30% of the maps. Sometimes he has better than 30%, but not always. If he doubled everything like PoR Mia/Zihark, I wouldn't mind it so much. Reducing hit rates to 40s and 50s would mean that I could make use of his doubling and help to raise him. But I'd still run into his part 3 issues, so I'd like the laguz to all have A strike rather than S strike before I'd start considering Edward to be good.

Did I say Eddie was good? No, in fact I acknowledged that his only advantage was he could coin flip more often, that being it. My problem is that these people do not warrent themselves to be so important as to be 3 tiers above him. Nolan can be upper mid, fine and dandy, but I feel that the other two should be stuck to mid, those being Jill and Aran. They simply are not important, certainly not Michaiah important. Train as much as they want, they can't bomb certain units in one shot, they can't heal, and she is nowhere near as easy to replace.


Again, ignoring part 3. Part 3 is their bridge to part 4 utility. Without it, they feel pain. Like Ed.

Part 3 is so small, it apparently gets ignored regardless, as you yourself stated of which apparently Nolan's earth support does not effect anyone's part 3 performance long enough to make an impact. Why should I bother to assume anything about part 3 when all it is is a glorified waste of time?


Actually, Aran is in about the same boat as Nolan.

Aran gets a +5 crit on top of his 21 skill, so 15 crit soon to be 16 crit. Nolan has 19.7 skill so it may as well be 10 crit, but for Nolan to reach 3HKOd he needs Tarvos, which is also +5 crit. So he's at 15 crit as well.

8%, after enemy luck. Quite different from Ed's 18%, actually. And on top of it all, they won't get themselves killed for it if you keep them at full hp. To crit twice, and not dodge? .64% (crit twice) on top of whatever the chance of getting hit 3 times is. This is considerably less than Aran in 1-4. And that's assuming they 3HKO in the first place. If they 4HKO then it isn't a concern anyway. But I guess they probably 3HKO cats. Maybe not tigers, though. Anyway, their crit problem is less severe than Ed's, and like I said: Everyone has a crit problem in 3-6. But for these guys, if they only crit once they don't die.

Ed could remove Caladbolg and still have 13% crit. The only way to avoid a too high chance of suicide is to make sure he 4HKOs cats and 5HKOs tigers. Even then he has a 1.69% chance to double crit a tiger and is thus in more trouble than Aran and Nolan, though admittedly not by much. I suppose that combined with the 0% chance of trouble against cats and he's close to even with their chance of trouble. Still, preventing crit trouble would mean that his offence is quite bad and we may not be able to kill on player phase whatever he injured on enemy phase, which could lead to trouble.

That was more just asking for clarity I suppose, so thanks for clearing that up. Thorough as usual.

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14 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:54 am

Grandjackal wrote:
Who gives a shit if he's salvageable? He's not part of the efficiency equation if he needs to be salvaged. We got plenty of killers in part 4, so fuck him.
By "salvageable" I mean has a 1 chapter hiccup and then is quite awesome. That's basically worth it to me.


I did acknowledge that Aran was beating Eddie later in part 1, thus why I didn't say they should be in the same tier. However, he is being beaten by Eddie early on until the later portions of part 1, which then experiences a hiccup in part 3 before picking back up again, then becoming ultimately useless part 4. How this defines upper mid in comparison is baffeling. Eddie can stay where he is, but at least drop Aran a tier. Raising tier 1s is apparently akin to wasting time on this list and game, so let's not waste time, shall we?
How long until Aran is better?

Even if it is just 1-7 on, that's still 1-7, 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13 where he is pretty good.
Edward has 1-P, 1-1, 1-4. Arguably 1-2 and 1-3, I suppose. I've never really liked Aran's position anyway, but others seem to think of him as upper mid, so I don't bother with that line anyway.


Then let's treat the fastforwards like Jeigens and nothing more. But wait, we won't do that because...Yes, exactly, it goes against the list. You keep saying we assume the most efficient strategy, and clearly the best strategy is leaving the runts in the dust. I say let them. The runts might turn out to be...semi-decent at best apparently. It's not worth it when I can just skip the bullshit and get to the rest of the game, of which is the unfun process of watching the GM and the royals take care of everything else.
We treat them like Jeigens. Titania PoR Jeigans. The woman's in her own tier. Seth's also the top of fe8, and has his own tier there as well.

Basically, they are assumed to be used. Now imagine a team of Jeigans. That's RD, sad to say. Thing about a team of Jeigans? They aren't around forever, you still need the other units, and the ones that are the best of the rest still get much credit for it. Sadly, Edward is not among the "best of the rest". Though I do wonder how Geoffrey and Kieran can be mid tier for 2-3 and 3-9 alone, basically, but Ed can't get to mid. Oh well.


Did I say Eddie was good? No, in fact I acknowledged that his only advantage was he could coin flip more often, that being it. My problem is that these people do not warrent themselves to be so important as to be 3 tiers above him. Nolan can be upper mid, fine and dandy, but I feel that the other two should be stuck to mid, those being Jill and Aran. They simply are not important, certainly not Michaiah important. Train as much as they want, they can't bomb certain units in one shot, they can't heal, and she is nowhere near as easy to replace.
We don't mess with Jill on this tier list.
Well, Jill is actually pretty good from 1-6 until 3-13, small hiccup at the start of part 4, then good again. It isn't inconsistent to reward a character who only really has ~2 bad chapters and punish a unit that has, like 10.



Again, ignoring part 3. Part 3 is their bridge to part 4 utility. Without it, they feel pain. Like Ed.

Part 3 is so small, it apparently gets ignored regardless, as you yourself stated of which apparently Nolan's earth support does not effect anyone's part 3 performance long enough to make an impact. Why should I bother to assume anything about part 3 when all it is is a glorified waste of time?

When did I say that? Also, no, his Earth isn't helping there. At least, not much. It isn't making units laugh at the Laguz, all it does is let Micaiah and Laura heal some other unit or kill a problem tiger some of the time. That's a good thing, of course, and it helps efficiency, but what it does not do is help Edward. Nolan's already pretty high on the list, as you have pointed out. He's getting credit for having Earth and relieving Micaiah and Laura a bit in 3-6. But if anyone can support Nolan and do this thing, I don't see why we'd credit Mr. Suicide for this thing.


Anyway, you can't ignore 3 chapters of the game. It's also part of why Edward > Lucia right now. A different 3 chapters, but still it is a result of us no longer ignoring the first few chapters of the game.


That was more just asking for clarity I suppose, so thanks for clearing that up. Thorough as usual.
Okay.

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15 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:41 am

Narga_Rocks wrote:
By "salvageable" I mean has a 1 chapter hiccup and then is quite awesome. That's basically worth it to me.

By awesome, do you mean average?


How long until Aran is better?

Even if it is just 1-7 on, that's still 1-7, 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13 where he is pretty good.
Edward has 1-P, 1-1, 1-4. Arguably 1-2 and 1-3, I suppose. I've never really liked Aran's position anyway, but others seem to think of him as upper mid, so I don't bother with that line anyway.

You just said that the LEA wrecks Eddie's chances, yet from what I see, they seem to show up the moment Aran starts to pick up. You sir, have it backwards. Eddie's the one with actual proper utility, moments where he's actually important. Moments that Aran is actually good, he is utterly shitstomped, or just flat out isn't part of the efficient equation.


We treat them like Jeigens. Titania PoR Jeigans. The woman's in her own tier. Seth's also the top of fe8, and
has his own tier there as well.

What? They aren't quite PoR or SS Jeigen, most of them actually do slow down. Unless your name is Volug, you do start to shit out eventually (Lucia's in lower mid, she has ways to instantly become better than Zihark upon meeting). They're in their own tiers because they never slow down, most of these dudes do. The problem is, those moments of slowing down don't happen till part 4, where the rest of the DB even after being trained are still for the most part crushed by the GM.


Basically, they are assumed to be used. Now imagine a team of Jeigans. That's RD, sad to say. Thing about a team of Jeigans? They aren't around forever, you still need the other units, and the ones that are the best of the rest still get much credit for it. Sadly, Edward is not among the "best of the rest". Though I do wonder how Geoffrey and Kieran can be mid tier for 2-3 and 3-9 alone, basically, but Ed can't get to mid. Oh well.

Gee, I could have sworn I made this point some time before...

And the sad part is that despite using "Jeigens" properly, none of the DB are of "the best of the rest", because "the best of the rest" happens to be the GM. The fastforwards are there for a reason, part 1 and DB part 3 is a waste of time.


We don't mess with Jill on this tier list.
Well, Jill is actually pretty good from 1-6 until 3-13, small hiccup at the start of part 4, then good again. It isn't inconsistent to reward a character who only really has ~2 bad chapters and punish a unit that has, like 10.

Outside of dropping Taur in that one chapter, she is not part of the efficient equation immediately after. If we can bash the rest of the DB for it, I've no reason to give a damn about Jill either. Average doesn't cut it when I clearly do not need it.


When did I say that? Also, no, his Earth isn't helping there. At least, not much. It isn't making units laugh at the Laguz, all it does is let Micaiah and Laura heal some other unit or kill a problem tiger some of the time. That's a good thing, of course, and it helps efficiency, but what it does not do is help Edward. Nolan's already pretty high on the list, as you have pointed out. He's getting credit for having Earth and relieving Micaiah and Laura a bit in 3-6. But if anyone can support Nolan and do this thing, I don't see why we'd credit Mr. Suicide for this thing.

You're technically addressing what I was mentioning, as pointed out by the bold.

How so? On a shrub (isn't Zihark's cowardly-ass doing the same thing? Do remind me), that earth support, as we can see, can drop all hit into the 40s, some even the 30s (high 30s, but that's a dur). More than a coin flip at this point.


Anyway, you can't ignore 3 chapters of the game. It's also part of why Edward > Lucia right now. A different 3 chapters, but still it is a result of us no longer ignoring the first few chapters of the game.

We can't ignore those first few chapters because Eddie is not only rather important those chapters, we can't even choose not to use him. Availability is not important in this list, because most of the availability is assumed to not matter, because they are not part f the efficient equation for most of it. He's only necessary until the next best thing comes along, which is pretty much how the game plays. Why use worse when you can use better? Purposefully going slow is not efficiency, it's as ridiculous as assuming FEDS doesn't involve forging.

Imposing this idea just because it's the only thing keeping this game semi-fun and semi-arguable is a waste of time, and frankly insanity-inducing. If these jeigens are indeed PoR and SS jeigen amazing, put them up there with Haar, what with being fellow fastforward buttons as well.

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16 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:34 am

Grandjackal wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
How long until Aran is better?

Even if it is just 1-7 on, that's still 1-7, 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13 where he is pretty good.
Edward has 1-P, 1-1, 1-4. Arguably 1-2 and 1-3, I suppose. I've never really liked Aran's position anyway, but others seem to think of him as upper mid, so I don't bother with that line anyway.

You just said that the LEA wrecks Eddie's chances, yet from what I see, they seem to show up the moment Aran starts to pick up. You sir, have it backwards. Eddie's the one with actual proper utility, moments where he's actually important. Moments that Aran is actually good, he is utterly shitstomped, or just flat out isn't part of the efficient equation.

Doesn't change the fact that Aran > Eddie in 1-7 through 1-E. Aran is making up ground on Eddie's part 1 wins in those chapters even if both are outclassed.


Grandjackal wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:
When did I say that? Also, no, his Earth isn't helping there. At least, not much. It isn't making units laugh at the Laguz, all it does is let Micaiah and Laura heal some other unit or kill a problem tiger some of the time. That's a good thing, of course, and it helps efficiency, but what it does not do is help Edward. Nolan's already pretty high on the list, as you have pointed out. He's getting credit for having Earth and relieving Micaiah and Laura a bit in 3-6. But if anyone can support Nolan and do this thing, I don't see why we'd credit Mr. Suicide for this thing.

You're technically addressing what I was mentioning, as pointed out by the bold.

How so? On a shrub (isn't Zihark's cowardly-ass doing the same thing? Do remind me), that earth support, as we can see, can drop all hit into the 40s, some even the 30s (high 30s, but that's a dur). More than a coin flip at this point.


Being 2HKO'd with displayed 40s/30s still isn't good. I mean, sure, Zihark has the same problem, but Zihark sucks in this chapter. Seriously, beating Zihark in 3-6 isn't much of an accomplishment. It's pretty much the cut off of being a combat unit and being in bottom tier.



Narga_Rocks wrote:
Though I do wonder how Geoffrey and Kieran can be mid tier for 2-3 and 3-9 alone, basically, but Ed can't get to mid.

Eddie has 3-6 and 3-13. Geoffrey and Kieran don't.

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17 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:52 am


Eddie has 3-6 and 3-13. Geoffrey and Kieran don't.

That's a pro-Edward argument if anything.

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18 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:37 pm

nflchamp wrote:
Doesn't change the fact that Aran > Eddie in 1-7 through 1-E. Aran is making up ground on Eddie's part 1 wins in those chapters even if both are outclassed.

1-7, Aran might as well not exist, because we have the LEA.

Even if he is outclassed by Aran, does it mean anything if either way he's not being used?

Grandjackal wrote:
Being 2HKO'd with displayed 40s/30s still isn't good. I mean, sure, Zihark has the same problem, but Zihark sucks in this chapter. Seriously, beating Zihark in 3-6 isn't much of an accomplishment. It's pretty much the cut off of being a combat unit and being in bottom tier.

Now everyone, when did I EVER SAY EDDIE SHOULD RISE!? I'm not trying to raise Eddie, I'm trying to bring hte rest of hte DB down!

By this statement, I'm also starting to think Zihark's not exempt from this either. After all, if Eddie's apparently so bad, and he hits a brick wall so hard that his part 3 performance is actually worse than Eddie's, then part 4 comes along and is immediately outclassed by Lucia...


Eddie has 3-6 and 3-13. Geoffrey and Kieran don't.

Don't you mean the BK has 3-6 and the generics have 3-13 while random noobs plug up holes?

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19 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:35 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:Though I do wonder how Geoffrey and Kieran can be mid tier for 2-3 and 3-9 alone, basically, but Ed can't get to mid. Oh well.
Kieran can probably stay due to sticking around, but I've been thinking of dropping Geoffrey to Lower Mid. Two maps where he isn't even that much better than the rest of the team shouldn't be worth that much.

We don't mess with Jill on this tier list.
Yeah!

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20 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:05 pm

I'm not sure if it's sarcasm or not, but i get the vibe you guys feel Jill actually is overrated.

But it brings something to question, exactly how many part 3 units are accountable to helping speed up part 3?

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21 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:12 pm

I wouldn't call Jill's Part 4 a "small hiccup". I mean, Jill only ties Nolan's 20/20/1 speed at 20/20/5, which is absurd, because Nolan is probably going to have a level lead in Part 1 and Nolan is having a lot more enemy phase exposure than her for Part 3 if we're going to call out Jill's ability to Canto, which is apparently enough to make her >>> everyone else in Part 3, which I don't get. Then, Nolan wins a pretty large majority of 4-E since 12~ HP > 2 Res. If Nolan is only salvagable for Part 4...

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22 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:16 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:I wouldn't call Jill's Part 4 a "small hiccup". I mean, Jill only ties Nolan's 20/20/1 speed at 20/20/5, which is absurd, because Nolan is probably going to have a level lead in Part 1 and Nolan is having a lot more enemy phase exposure than her for Part 3 if we're going to call out Jill's ability to Canto, which is apparently enough to make her >>> everyone else in Part 3, which I don't get. Then, Nolan wins a pretty large majority of 4-E since 12~ HP > 2 Res. If Nolan is only salvagable for Part 4...

Precisely my point. Outside of forced Michaiah, Jill's your highest tier 1 unit. If she's unsalvageable, and otherwise unimportant to actually use in part 1 and 3, why is she in upper mid, rather than above let's say Tauroneo?

I'd say her Taurbombing 1-6-2>Aran just lobbing javies in 1-4 and 5, but Taur can then crown for 3-12 and destroy that too, and obviously Jill is only there to make Taur do his job faster than if he just solo'd it normally.

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23 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:18 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:I wouldn't call Jill's Part 4 a "small hiccup". I mean, Jill only ties Nolan's 20/20/1 speed at 20/20/5, which is absurd, because Nolan is probably going to have a level lead in Part 1 and Nolan is having a lot more enemy phase exposure than her for Part 3 if we're going to call out Jill's ability to Canto, which is apparently enough to make her >>> everyone else in Part 3, which I don't get. Then, Nolan wins a pretty large majority of 4-E since 12~ HP > 2 Res. If Nolan is only salvagable for Part 4...


I was using "salvageable" because he doesn't start as good as your GMs and the other units. Hence, he needs to go through a small period of "ick" to get to a period of "good", or "amazing" as I said earlier. Salvageable was not to imply that he goes from "ick" to "meh", or anything.

I'm not sure either are hitting 20/20/1 though, because they both hit their speed cap before 20/20 and you could probably get some extra doubling out of them earlier if you crown them at some point. Since Jill hits her tier 2 speed cap earlier than Nolan, it's possible they'll spend most of their time with about the same speed since you could, in theory, crown Jill earlier. It would need to be looked at more in depth, and I'm not doing that right now.

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24 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:22 pm

By that time, why even bother? You've got plenty of people in part 4 who can handle part 4, then we got plenty of people who can handle Endgame.

There is no reason she should be above Tauroneo, who can actually help in turning chapters into jokes. She's also basically Nolan without the part 1...or the part 3...and a slower start in part 4...

Seriously, what's she doing in upper mid? Goes for Aran too. Basically, should look like this.

Taur
Jill
Aran

As a starting suggestion.

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25 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:30 pm

Please note that I think that Jackal is an idiot and do not agree with him.

I just believe that Jill's Part 4 sucks as much as all the other DB members.


I was using "salvageable" because he doesn't start as good as your GMs and the other units. Hence, he needs to go through a small period of "ick" to get to a period of "good", or "amazing" as I said earlier. Salvageable was not to imply that he goes from "ick" to "meh", or anything.

I don't think that's a fair representation, then. Salvageable implies that his Part 4 was already awful and now he's just able to scrape by. Meanwhile, everyone looooooooves Jill because her Part 4 is soooo great!


I'm not sure either are hitting 20/20/1 though, because they both hit their speed cap before 20/20 and you could probably get some extra doubling out of them earlier if you crown them at some point. Since Jill hits her tier 2 speed cap earlier than Nolan, it's possible they'll spend most of their time with about the same speed since you could, in theory, crown Jill earlier. It would need to be looked at more in depth, and I'm not doing that right now.

There's also a pretty damn big opportunity cost that should be associated with taking that crown if she does take it, because everyone in the DB, the CRKS, and the lower-end GMs wants one. :/


By that time, why even bother? You've got plenty of people in part 4 who can handle part 4, then we got plenty of people who can handle Endgame.

There is no reason she should be above Tauroneo, who can actually help in turning chapters into jokes. She's also basically Nolan without the part 1...or the part 3...and a slower start in part 4...

Seriously, what's she doing in upper mid? Goes for Aran too. Basically, should look like this.

Taur
Jill
Aran

As a starting suggestion.

I know you're doing this to try to point out some double standards, but don't try to ignore how Aran exists for 7 more chapters than Taur and Jill exists for 4 more.

It does make me wonder how flight and a better Part 4 makes up for durability wins and 3 more chapters of usefulness, not to mention a better Part 3... >_>; I know Vykan typed up a comparison between the two in Aran's favor before. Gotta' look for that.

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26 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:49 pm

Both Jill and Nolan can be fine in part 4 with a map of Paragon use, which there are 3 of and they make very good use of, especially Jill. I don't think it's such a big issue to assume they're used past part 3.

By that time, why even bother? You've got plenty of people in part 4 who can handle part 4, then we got plenty of people who can handle Endgame.
Stop overblowing this. It's getting annoying. Part 4 already doesn't have as much emphasis as the other parts of the game as it is.

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27 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:51 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:
I don't think that's a fair representation, then. Salvageable implies that his Part 4 was already awful and now he's just able to scrape by. Meanwhile, everyone looooooooves Jill because her Part 4 is soooo great!
I looked at salvageable as saying "it can be made comparable to the rest" rather than "it can be made to not suck completely". I'm not sure which is the best definition of salvageable, though.


There's also a pretty damn big opportunity cost that should be associated with taking that crown if she does take it, because everyone in the DB, the CRKS, and the lower-end GMs wants one. :/
I'd actually assume any DB member you are using should be trying to get a crown. Zihark might not, given his 30 tier 2 speed cap and mediocre str, though. But the rest? Nolan probably doesn't want to be locked at 27 AS any more than Jill wants to be stuck at 25. Also, Jill can go to 4-P where 26 AS can double most of the map, so a crown there makes her instantly good. Nolan would not like the desert (Jill thrives), so he'd go to other chapters that don't have the majority of enemies being slow. So he'll be happy to get a crown, too. Besides, I'm not convinced that he can have 27 AS going into part 4 anyway, so he'll probably fight in 4-1 or 4-2 as tier 2, and whatever level he reaches we'll crown him before the next chapter. Either way they are getting a crown, it's just a question of when.


I know you're doing this to try to point out some double standards, but don't try to ignore how Aran exists for 7 more chapters than Taur and Jill exists for 4 more.

It does make me wonder how flight and a better Part 4 makes up for durability wins and 3 more chapters of usefulness, not to mention a better Part 3... >_>; I know Vykan typed up a comparison between the two in Aran's favor before. Gotta' look for that.

Um, it does? His durability wins in part 4 are largely irrelevant. Durability in part 3 means that he enjoys 3HKOd in 3-6 iff you aggressively leveled him in part 1 (which should also have a cost). Jill can be reasonably durable, and flight allows her to more easily attack the weakened laguz that need to die so as to prevent trouble on enemy phase. Also, by 3-13 she should be reasonably durable herself. A Robe on Aran helps him in 3-6 because he can be more reasonably leveled leaving part 1 and still reach 3RKOd, I suppose, but there are two robes so a robe on Jill should let her be 3RKOd in 3-13. Meaning they come out about even in part 3 due to both being considered with robes. Then in part 4 Jill doubles paladins, then since she had 27 AS in 4-P and a chance to level she should double a fair amount of 4-3 as well. This basically means that she has less of an ick period than Nolan, actually. Thanks to the desert. If not for desert, Nolan could benefit from stupid paladins too.

And her 1-6 is better than Aran's 1-6. Aran is 4th string tank in 1-4. 1-5 is a joke, considering after the first two turns where you clear out what is near you anyone can stand on the ledge. That's all Volug saving Jill, nothing more.

1-7 is the LEA show, so if you have Aran at a high enough level I suppose you could argue him for the door, but he'd face 4 attacks on one turn if you send him straight at the door, and I think unless he is ludicrously leveled even he will have issues with that. Anyone can go at that door from the right if they can take just 2 hits, rather than needing 4, so no advantage for him there. 1-8 he has some advantage on Jill, I suppose. 1-E Jill could have a seal and 7 move, Aran needs all the levels he can get. She also doesn't lose move from ledges. Enemies are set up in such a way that his superior durability only matters at the top near the boss, but because of how long it takes him to get there you may be better off just having Nailah obliterate. Even without the Nailah strategy, that's still just a small part.

Really, Jill > Aran quite easily.



Oh yeah, paragon too.

Aran, Jill, Nolan, whichever tier 1 nub you raised should easily be able to get the DB's paragon for one chapter each in part 3. Unless you are trying to get Aran, Jill, Nolan, and Zihark all to come out of the DB, but that will just kill their level anyway. Honestly, I'd recommend no more than 2, considering you also raise Volug, Micaiah, and let Sothe kill a bunch. So they easily have a bit of paragon already. Then in part 4 you have 3. Any of them really should get paragon for a bit. Titania and Gatrie and Oscar might want Paragon for their speed growths to actually get them up to doubling faster, but even so I think it's reasonable to let your DB members get some paragon, especially considering those 3 I mentioned from the GMs don't even get 34 AS anyway. Jill and Nolan at least get that.

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28 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:57 pm

ChaosNinji wrote:
I know you're doing this to try to point out some double standards, but don't try to ignore how Aran exists for 7 more chapters than Taur and Jill exists for 4 more.

You mean 4 chapters where she is not part of the efficient plan?

Aran exists for 2 where his best use is lobbing javelins, don't color me impressed.

If everyone who is utterly thrown by the wayside due to fastforwards being the most efficient strategy, make hte list reflect it for all characters, and not just those deemed people who suck anyways. If we're to punish twice, let's punish twice.


It does make me wonder how flight and a better Part 4 makes up for durability wins and 3 more chapters of usefulness, not to mention a better Part 3... >_>; I know Vykan typed up a comparison between the two in Aran's favor before. Gotta' look for that.


Again, does it matter? Taurbombing 1-6-2>javy lobbing in 1-4 and 5.


Both Jill and Nolan can be fine in part 4 with a map of Paragon use, which there are 3 of and they make very good use of, especially Jill. I don't think it's such a big issue to assume they're used past part 3.

Paragon could be the reason Gatrie won't need an extra speedwing. I'd take making Gatrie even cheaper>That any day.


Stop overblowing this. It's getting annoying. Part 4 already doesn't have as much emphasis as the other parts of the game as it is.

It should have even less emphasis on those that don't even start good there in the first place.

Besides, If I can ignore Eddie's part 1 contributions early on, where he is actually rather essential to a few fast map completions, I can easily ignore the lolable part 4.

Either Eddie's the bottom of mid, or we drop Nolan to the top of upper mid, then Jill+Aran below Taur. The former option would reflect that things people actually do can be accounted for throughout their existence, the latter would reflect how the tier list actually works-That the ones who actually do the work get the prize. Either one will progress the list for a change (when's the last time this list has changed at all?), and either one will make me shut the hell up.

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29 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:07 pm

Grandjackal wrote:
ChaosNinji wrote:
I know you're doing this to try to point out some double standards, but don't try to ignore how Aran exists for 7 more chapters than Taur and Jill exists for 4 more.

You mean 4 chapters where she is not part of the efficient plan?

Aran exists for 2 where his best use is lobbing javelins, don't color me impressed.

If everyone who is utterly thrown by the wayside due to fastforwards being the most efficient strategy, make hte list reflect it for all characters, and not just those deemed people who suck anyways. If we're to punish twice, let's punish twice.
Dude, just because Jill and Aran and Nolan all have something to cover themselves in part 3 and Ed doesn't is no reason to get like this. Just accept that there is a difference between them.



Both Jill and Nolan can be fine in part 4 with a map of Paragon use, which there are 3 of and they make very good use of, especially Jill. I don't think it's such a big issue to assume they're used past part 3.

Paragon could be the reason Gatrie won't need an extra speedwing. I'd take making Gatrie even cheaper>That any day.
Who is giving Gatrie a speedwing? You can give the wing to just about any GM in 3-11 and they'll double for a little while anyway. Besides, 31 AS cap mean anything to you? Braves won't let him ORKO stuff that Jill/Nolan can easily ORKO with their higher AS.


It should have even less emphasis on those that don't even start good there in the first place.
Sigh. Look, if I could make Eddie good with one small chapter of paragon, he'd be a lot higher. It takes far too long for it to matter. It's like Rolf. When was the last time you complained about us screwing him? (weeks, at least) He gets good, sure, but it takes until, like, 3-11 or something before he'll start doing stuff, but by then everybody is ORKOing anyway and they actually have enemy phase. (As opposed to Rolf(T) who is in an entirely different situation).


Besides, If I can ignore Eddie's part 1 contributions early on, where he is actually rather essential to a few fast map completions, I can easily ignore the lolable part 4.
I don't think he's essential to, say, 1-2 or 1-3 or 1-5. All he's got is 1-P and 1-1. Arguably 1-4 as well, but it's the difference between a small death chance (Aran) and no death chance (Ed). That's enough to make Ed > Aran in 1-4 itself, but that's not by a wide enough margin to act like he's essential there. It's just two maps. And even in 1-1 he doesn't have the major role. He's got a supporting role there.


Either Eddie's the bottom of mid, or we drop Nolan to the top of upper mid, then Jill+Aran below Taur. The former option would reflect that things people actually do can be accounted for throughout their existence, the latter would reflect how the tier list actually works-That the ones who actually do the work get the prize. Either one will progress the list for a change (when's the last time this list has changed at all?), and either one will make me shut the hell up.

I would maybe like to see Ed in mid or Geoffrey in lower mid. Guess what? RFoF says she is considering dropping Geoffrey. That's enough for me. Even if she doesn't actually do it.



(I wonder if Interceptor is going to say anything, though, since last time I saw something about the tier 1 db units I think he was still in favour of Jill at least dropping a bit. Possibly Nolan, too.)

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30 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:25 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:
Dude, just because Jill and Aran and Nolan all have something to cover themselves in part 3 and Ed doesn't is no reason to get like this. Just accept that there is a difference between them.

I do accept there is a difference, just not two entire tiers. I swear, I've been repeating this the entire time, but no one seems to pick up on it.

Eddie in the bottom of mid. Do you still see how far the fuck away Eddie would be form Jill and Aran? If it's too painful, then it's a double standard, as Edie is in lower mid due to his parts being ignored. If his parts are ignored, I can totally ignore Jill and Aran's moments of glory too.

Nolan I will admit even with all this considered might STILL be in generally near high, or at least the bottom. the dude is sort of like FEDS Barst. He's just too...Wel, he's got so much going for him, I'll put it that way.



Who is giving Gatrie a speedwing? You can give the wing to just about any GM in 3-11 and they'll double for a little while anyway. Besides, 31 AS cap mean anything to you? Braves won't let him ORKO stuff that Jill/Nolan can easily ORKO with their higher AS.

I'm pretty sure that's what you told me back when you said AS might become a problem for him, due to leveling speed at tier 3. Paragon can fix this as well, and thus would let the wing go to someone else. 2 doublers>1.


Sigh. Look, if I could make Eddie good with one small chapter of paragon, he'd be a lot higher. It takes far too long for it to matter. It's like Rolf. When was the last time you complained about us screwing him? (weeks, at least) He gets good, sure, but it takes until, like, 3-11 or something before he'll start doing stuff, but by then everybody is ORKOing anyway and they actually have enemy phase. (As opposed to Rolf(T) who is in an entirely
different situation).

Since when was Mid good? The bottom of it no less? He's not good, I accept this now, but he DOES have reason to exist, and is forced for that existence. Rolf needs till 3-11 to get good, and is overshadowed again. This implies Rolf sucks until then, of which he went to bad to meh. Eddie starts good. He goes from good to meh, to good again, and is forced during his starting period of good, so he's never not gonna experience that. On the other hand, I can easily toss out Rolf for a better strategy, while for Eddie's part 1, he IS part of the better strategy. He makes up for the meh for being forced during his important moments. It's a lame excuse, but that's why he'd be the bottom of mid. Rolf's situation might be similar, but never is he important. Thus why I feel Eddie should seperate.


I don't think he's essential to, say, 1-2 or 1-3 or 1-5. All he's got is 1-P and 1-1. Arguably 1-4 as well, but it's the difference between a small death chance (Aran) and no death chance (Ed). That's enough to make Ed > Aran in 1-4 itself, but that's not by a wide enough margin to act like he's essential there. It's just two maps. And even in 1-1 he doesn't have the major role. He's got a supporting role there.

1-2 he might not be essential, but he's still useful. 1-3 is basically a weird chapter, as he's forced, and it's the sort of map you don't want to be hanging around in for long, so you might as well use him. 1-4 he got lucky, as you said, and I agree his slowdown happens at around chapter 1-5. However, that's a good bit of mileage for him considering. That's generally 5 chapters where he's helping, as opposed to the apparent 4 Aran has of being good in part 1 before part 3 (see? I'm aware Aran and Eddie should be in seperate tiers, but can you at least see where I'm getting at with they shouldn't be two tiers apart?)


I would maybe like to see Ed in mid or Geoffrey in lower mid. Guess what? RFoF says she is considering dropping Geoffrey. That's enough for me. Even if she doesn't actually do it.

Yet Keiran's the same, just he has availability, of which Eddie has as well. Perhaps a combination of both should happen?

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31 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:14 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:(I wonder if Interceptor is going to say anything, though, since last time I saw something about the tier 1 db units I think he was still in favour of Jill at least dropping a bit. Possibly Nolan, too.)
I'm reading along, but I've got nothing to add, really.

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32 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:01 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:I would maybe like to see Ed in mid or Geoffrey in lower mid. Guess what? RFoF says she is considering dropping Geoffrey. That's enough for me. Even if she doesn't actually do it.
I wonder, is it worth another topic to make sure people see it?

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33 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:04 pm

Red Fox of Fire wrote:
Narga_Rocks wrote:I would maybe like to see Ed in mid or Geoffrey in lower mid. Guess what? RFoF says she is considering dropping Geoffrey. That's enough for me. Even if she doesn't actually do it.
I wonder, is it worth another topic to make sure people see it?

I suppose it would, as this is more about the prospect of coinflipping in this game.

Suppose the topic got a bit side tracked.

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34 Re: Avoid on Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:37 pm

Narga_Rocks wrote:
I looked at salvageable as saying "it can be made comparable to the rest" rather than "it can be made to not suck completely". I'm not sure which is the best definition of salvageable, though.

I assumed the latter. Since you meant the former, you can disregard that.


I'd actually assume any DB member you are using should be trying to get a crown. Zihark might not, given his 30 tier 2 speed cap and mediocre str, though. But the rest? Nolan probably doesn't want to be locked at 27 AS any more than Jill wants to be stuck at 25. Also, Jill can go to 4-P where 26 AS can double most of the map, so a crown there makes her instantly good. Nolan would not like the desert (Jill thrives), so he'd go to other chapters that don't have the majority of enemies being slow. So he'll be happy to get a crown, too. Besides, I'm not convinced that he can have 27 AS going into part 4 anyway, so he'll probably fight in 4-1 or 4-2 as tier 2, and whatever level he reaches we'll crown him before the next chapter. Either way they are getting a crown, it's just a question of when.

I guess since you have 2 by 3-13... >_>;

Also, Nolan gets 17 AS at Level 17 without BEXP, which would probably let him have it by Level 15 or something. He's one of the highest level DB members and on Aran's level of good in Part 3, so he's doing pretty awesome. I think he'd be able to get to 17, even if we discount Paragon in Part 3.


Speaking of which, the DB Part 3 Chapters are some of the best in the game. Why did there have to be so few? Damn you, IS!


Narga

You do know that I wasn't even arguing it, right? I just said that I wanted to look to see Vykan's arguments.

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