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Cuan and Fin up (redux)

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1 Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:34 pm

In Prologue and 1, Fin and Alec have the same offense, only Alec doubles bow users.
Alec wins avoid by liek 60, so Alec wins Prologue and Chapter 1.

Cuan 2HKOs but has liek 20% Continue, so he's beating Alec in offense. He also has the Javelin to avoid counters, and is being like 4-5HKO'd, so he's still not in any danger of dying. +1 move is also pretty neat I guess. Oh yeah, and Cuan with Steel leaves stuff low enough that other people take no counters, which is pretty cool.

In Ch. 1, Alec upgrades to Steel, but this doesn't let him one round so meh. Fin can also take the Javelin in the shop to avoid counters (he loses 2 attack but still doubles Axe users, and has >90 hit with Sigurd's Leadership... not as awesome as in a 2RN system, but still good, since that's 100% vs. roads, which is where most enemies are), which is super cool.

In Ch. 2, Cuan reaches Elliot a turn sooner and gets the Silver Lance, which lets him 2HKO armors which have shown up, while Alec's looking worse and worse. Fin struggles a bit vs. the armors, but then gets the Hero Lance and rapestomps everything that doesn't have a sword (and still 2HKOs Free Knights, so rofflecaeks). If Cuan gets the Pursuit Ring he one rounds everything (only other unit who comes close is Levin, who doesn't have a horse), and this continues into Ch. 3

Alec continues to get worse as Axe users have basically completely disappeared, and Orgahill isn't helping because Cuan has LOLGAEBOLG and one shots everything and takes no damage (I'm not kidding, he has like 60 attack, the only enemies he doesn't one shot are the 2 bosses, which he leaves at like 15HP). Enemy attack in Orgahill is barely better than Prologue/Ch. 1, so Fin at 20 has 16 Def (17 with village) and is thus like 8HKO'd, plus LOLPRAYER, which is super effective when you're taking single digit damage from enemies. Note that Fin's only competition for the Hero Lance if Fury, who does the same thing but has less effective move thanks to lolroads, and if/when Fin promotes, he can use the Silver Lance to 2HKO stuff anyway (41 attack without the village 2HKOs Armors)

Alec has doubling issues in 4 without the Spd Ring, and has lots of competition for the Wing Clipper and Armor Cutter (read: liek every sword user). In Ch. 5 it's the same story, and needs the Speed Ring to double Arch Knights with the Knight Killer (if he gets it).

The gap between Cuan/Fin and Alec in Ch. 2 and 3 is wtfmassive, especially considering Alec's win in 0 and 1 is debatable at best vs. Cuan and only major in durability vs. Fin. In 4 and 5 he's one of your worst units, so I don't think availability is going to help.

I'd there's a tier gap between Cuan and Alec, but I'm not sure about Fin vs. Alec since Alec actually has a tangible lead over Fin in Prologue and 1.

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2 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:23 am

Mekkah

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i agree so much

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3 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:42 am

Alec has a lead in-who considers Prologue seriously? Honestly. I mean come on, even Arden is freaking semi-useful there.

By the way, how exactly does Alec beat Fin in chapter 1, when Fin can trade his iron for Cuan's steel (Cuan's still 2HKOing as usual, but now Fin's offense took a steep step upwards), and can have a javelin to avoid counters? Alec having swords to make his avoid semi-reliable doesn't make up for doing paltry damage.

But basically yeah, I could see them up. In fact, the two seem so damn low to me. Sure, they aren't there the whole game, but they just resonate so strongly while they exist.

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4 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:47 am

Alec has a lead in-who considers Prologue seriously?
Tier lists.

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5 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:59 am

FE3_Player wrote:
Alec has a lead in-who considers Prologue seriously?
Tier lists.

Ok, so Alec "wins prologue" on the basis that he exists for more of it. The time Fin and co. show up, half the map's pretty much dead.

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6 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:35 pm

Grandjackal wrote:Alec has a lead in-who considers Prologue seriously? Honestly. I mean come on, even Arden is freaking semi-useful there.

By the way, how exactly does Alec beat Fin in chapter 1, when Fin can trade his iron for Cuan's steel (Cuan's still 2HKOing as usual, but now Fin's offense took a steep step upwards), and can have a javelin to avoid counters? Alec having swords to make his avoid semi-reliable doesn't make up for doing paltry damage.

But basically yeah, I could see them up. In fact, the two seem so damn low to me. Sure, they aren't there the whole game, but they just resonate so strongly while they exist.

Does Fin one round with Steel? If so, that helps even more. >_>

Edit: Fin at base with the Cuan convo one rounds Brigands. Awesome.

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7 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:42 pm

Paperblade wrote:
Grandjackal wrote:Alec has a lead in-who considers Prologue seriously? Honestly. I mean come on, even Arden is freaking semi-useful there.

By the way, how exactly does Alec beat Fin in chapter 1, when Fin can trade his iron for Cuan's steel (Cuan's still 2HKOing as usual, but now Fin's offense took a steep step upwards), and can have a javelin to avoid counters? Alec having swords to make his avoid semi-reliable doesn't make up for doing paltry damage.

But basically yeah, I could see them up. In fact, the two seem so damn low to me. Sure, they aren't there the whole game, but they just resonate so strongly while they exist.

Does Fin one round with Steel? If so, that helps even more. >_>

Not quite sure, but it helps murder that goddamn swordsman in the arena. For maximum effect, have Cuan complete his arena first, trade it to Fin, have him fuck around.

Assuming a level from prologue, then 3 levels from hte arena and the Str convo from Cuan, that would ammount to 11 Str, combine with steel and we get 27 mt. Enemies have around 5 Def, 36 HP for Genoa, fighters having 38 HP and 8 Def. So yeah, he can actually ORKO all of Genoa outside of the bosses.

Marpha upgrades to 40 HP and 6 Defense, still doesn't save them, and Dew could have easily whittled a few of them. Axefighter has 45 HP and 11 Def, so even with some Dew whittling (it takes generally 12 turns to reach him, so that's 12 HP, making hte real HP 33), Fin just barely misses ORKOing in a technical sense.

Verdane, weakest have 45 HP and 8 Def, so Fin stops ORKOing with steel right about here.

Fin to skyrocket?

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8 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:44 pm

Edit: Fin at base with the Cuan convo one rounds Brigands. Awesome.

Can one see this as a basis for Fin>Cuan?

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9 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:17 pm

sPortsman wrote:
Edit: Fin at base with the Cuan convo one rounds Brigands. Awesome.

Can one see this as a basis for Fin>Cuan?

Very much so. Thanks to pursuit, Fin can use any weapon better than Cuan ever could. Boss killing they'd be about even. While Fin is more reliable in doubling, Cuan when he does double hurts quite a bit more, thanks to his monsterous Str.

Cuan has 1 more move, but a mount is a mount.

They're pretty close, but I'd take Pursuit>Adept any day.

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10 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:23 pm

Mekkah

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11 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:28 pm

I'm saying Cuan is still at an advantage because both units usually 2HKO enemies, meaning Cuan's adept gives him the edge. The only way for Fin to win is if he 1RKOes while Cuan doesn't, or if he weakens the enemy a much larger amount than Cuan (assuming he doesn't activate anything).

This one caught my attention, as it's happening as soon as chapter 1 that Fin is doing something Cuan can't without Adept.

However, I DID notice the huge durability advantage Cuan has, and how Adept does help that, as it would allow him to kill before he's countered.

However, it can still be seen that they are close, and that they should rise regardless. It's offense vs. defense, and I think we all know what usually wins...

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12 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:31 am

Mekkah

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Since this has been here for a while now, I rose Fin and Cuan an arbitrary amount. Feel free to argue from there.

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13 Re: Cuan and Fin up (redux) on Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:24 pm

Cuan seems about right, but why Fin's a tier below them when they're so close seems weird. Basically, let's make it look like this.

Fury
Cuan
Fin
Lachesis

Seriously, Lachesis is above them both, what's the deal? Her end result might be great, and she can spam warp/return/whatever, but it doesn't stop the fact that until she promotes (looking at her base level, that's gonna take a while even considering), she is terrible outside of staff use and charisma, which with her small move, will not often find itself in play.

Fury I could see, Brave Lance with flight is a bit too good when she shows up for the rest of gen 1. Cuan saves Lachesis (or helps get there before she can be killed), and Fury saves Claude and Tiltyu. Fury snipes off meteor mages in hte final gen 1 chapter, she ignores the pain in the ass terrain in Sylesia, you get the point. I think that outdoes Cuan's inconstant offense and Fin's questionable earlygame defense.

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