Fire Emblem Genesis

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Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier

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1 Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:32 pm

From an earlier post on SF:

You don't need stats to have flying utility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90kY_HBl6dk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJxpD0lOIA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZzk3qQud1c

Although granted, Juno doesn't have too many chapters in which to exercise her utility, but it's still better than being a second string Durandal or Wyrmslayer unit in 2 chapters. You can never have enough mounted units. For example:

Chapter 20xI: Juno can rescue-drop characters to the next wall after said character breaks a wall. In many instances I count 7 or more spaces that separate walls, so foot units can't move from one wall to the next in 1 turn. Eclipse is useful for breaking walls, but in the general sense, you cannot break a wall in 1 round of combat without using brave weapons or certain divine weapons, so Juno can also do trade chaining.

Chapter 21: This one's pretty easy. Juno has just enough aid to rescue Garret and stick him on a mountain to divert WK reinforcements. She can also rescue-drop units across mountains with Lalum/Elphin and any of your other 4 fliers.

Chapter 21x: Assuming that you're not warping someone into the middle chamber, Juno can pick someone up and just move along the river (avoiding the snipers and druids that can attack through the walls), bypassing the walls and rivers. There are safe spots along the right side, but the left side requires someone to go left and divert the sniper first.

Chapter 22: It's a big chapter, so mounts are good for rescue-drop.

Chapter 23: Ballistae in the center island. You probably don't want to deploy her here.

Chapter 24: Long, winding, 1-space wide routes? Sounds like a perfect opportunity for rescue utility!

I suppose her combat parameters are unsalvageable despite having some very fast supports with Thany/Tate (one gives full atk, the other full def), but as I said earlier in this post, you don't need stats for flying utility.
Now, I know this is actually a comparison against Karel. Even if Juno > Karel is dubious at first glance, I do know that she is worth more than Sofiya and Wendy.

Also, I guess I could do a combat comparison between the two for basically the only chapter that matters:

Chapter 24:

Code:

Karel --/20 (no supports) Durandal 46.1 HP, 77.3 atk, 21.4 AS, 16.1 def
Juno  --/14 (no supports) Malte    35.5 HP, 60.0 atk, 13.5 AS,  8.5 def

Random mamkutes from that enemy samples page:
Mamkute #1 --/08 Fire Dragonstone 62 HP, 41 atk, 10 AS, 23 def
Mamkute #2 --/13 Fire Dragonstone 66 HP, 42 atk, 11 AS, 23 def
Mamkute #3 --/14 Fire Dragonstone 65 HP, 44 atk,  9 AS, 23 def
OK, so a few things.

First is Juno's level. I don't think it's very difficult to get her 5 levels in 5 very large chapters considering there are plenty of promoted enemies to kill and she does do damage with a Silver Lance (I guess she can also try to pick off pallies in chapter 21 with a Horseslayer).

Second is offense. Karel wins 17.3 atk, but you only need 56 atk to KO mamkute #2, so this lead is totally superfluous. Juno doubles mamkute #3 and needs AS to round up to double mamkute #1 (extra level or something), and mamkute #2 is out of reach unless she uses a Body Ring or a Dragonshield.

Third is defense. Karel wins 10.6 HP/7.6 def, but you need 83 combined HP + 2*def to survive 2 shots from mamkute #1, and Karel only has 78.3. However, mamkute #3 borderline OHKOs Juno; she'll need both HP and def to round up to survive with HP. But Juno has 2 very fast supports in Tate and Thany; a C support with Tate lets her survive without needing both stats to round up, and a B support requires neither stat to round up.

The point is that Juno clearly loses to Karel against maybe a half of the mamkutes, and that loss actually shrinks over the course of the chapter because Juno may level up and proc spd, HP, or def that lets her double or survive more mamkutes. And this combat comparison has so far ignored the fact that Juno has 2 move on Karel + rescue utility for units up to 13 con.

Karel clearly wins chapter 23 (I said in my earlier post that Juno should probably not even be deployed), but Juno has utility in every chapter that she's in before that. I suppose this doesn't necessarily mean that Juno should go above Karel, Dorothy, and Sue, but it does mean that Juno needs to move above Karel and Karel needs to move down. I thought we agreed before that Dorothy and Sue were both better than Karel?

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2 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:46 am

Mekkah

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I think this might be more about positive/negative utility, perhaps the Sophia/Guiding Ring issue.

I'm still inclined to say Sophia > Juno if she gets credit for the Guiding Ring, but this is also related to the issue of "how do we assume chars are used?" Like, if we use bad units just for cleaning up, shoving, rescuing, taking up reinforcement spawns, etc, or if they're obligated to fight their way through the game.

But for Juno > Karel...I think you might have a case here. Then again I only skimmed your post as I just woke up.

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3 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:01 pm

Uh, I guess this is relevant and/or amusing:

dondon151 on SF:


The demand for Durandal users should actually be a vertical line at qty = 1, except if I drew that it wouldn't have ended up intersecting the supply curve, so I made the demand curve downward sloping instead of vertical.

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4 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:07 pm

Half of me wants to do something stupid just so dondon can do a FE economics parody about it.

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5 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:33 am

What do both axes stand for? I'm assuming uty = utility.

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6 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:35 am

Vykan12 wrote:What do both axes stand for? I'm assuming uty = utility.


The bottom looks like qty, which is quantity, what it usually is with economics graphs involving supply and demand.

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7 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:08 am

Yes, uty = utility and qty = quantity. I'm lazy like that when writing with the paintbrush tool.

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8 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:09 am

So, uh, does anyone want to debate this some more?

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9 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:03 am

I agree with you at least.

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10 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:18 am

If it puts Thany as high as she is, then yes, let's see some consistency. Yunno/Juno/whatever the hell up plz.

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11 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:34 pm

I can agree with this. Flight can be of great help in this game, and I GUESS it helps for when Juno's around. It's no Dayan though, auto 20 speed along with his weapon rank is just too nice to ignore.

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12 Re: Why Juno should be out of Graveyard tier on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:50 pm

It's no Dayan though

Then I guess it's a good thing that it is physically impossible for Yunno to be higher on the list than Dayan.

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